Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba
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What's the fuss all about when the God is niether absent from the direction of the Qibla nor from the other directions.
Z Could it be that in your facing an object for unification purposes you're setting up a partner(s) with the god.
Surely I would think it would be more wise for one to unify with others under the beneficial concepts of there being "no god, but the god", providing for the betterment of society, and things of similar nature, rather than things known to be of a pagan/superficial nature.
Peace
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Peace
The Quraan does not say God is everywhere and neither does it say God is in a house.
The Quraan says take the Sacred mosque/Masjidul Haram as the Qibla and it does not say to take the Kaaba as the Qiblah . Neither does it say Sacred mosque and Kaaba are same.
Also I guess Baitullah /House of Allah can mean a sanctuary / sacred area and not a physical house.
Peace Ayman
Quote from Nun de plume on December 25, 2006, 032409 PM
Which way should people face during prayer?The god is closer to you than the jugular vein. You don't need to face a certain direction to pray to him.
Does the Quraan say facing the sacred mosque mean facing God or in the direction of God. It is just a direction.
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Peace and greetings,
It is a fact that the earth is constantntly in movement. It not only orbits round the sun but is also rotating about its axis. So those facing Qibla are not stationary but thier direction keeps on changing. But those who are fussy would want to physically spin and rotate along with the earth.
Chapter 13 verse 13
"And the thunder glorifies with His praise..."
Can anybody glorify the God as loudly as the thunder does ? How impractical would that be ?
Those who think that facing Qibla is a pagan concept have a misconception about the presence of the God. What if you say that all directions are pagan concepts so the Quranic ayat which says that the God is present evrywhere may seem to you as a pagan insertion. Wherever you turn you face God, even if people are facing Qibla they are facing the God. Now if you have a problem why did the God chose a direction then why do'nt you have a problem that the God did not punish satan instantly and set him free ? It is a trial for those who have disease in thier hearts.
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Peace Abrar,
It is a clear fact that everything that exists is glorifying God all the time and the God is present everywhere. If a person has a problem of idolising any object than that person is of weak faith. Qibla is for the sake of showing unity and descipline.
What unity is achieved by imagining to face some shrine? Are sectarians who imagine that they are facing Mecca united? Are they disciplined? You are right about one thing it is simply for "showing". It has no purpose other than superficial show-off.
On the other hand, facing the real "qibla" distinguishes those who follow the messenger from the hypocrites. Do you think that hypocrites cannot show-off?
When I know that the God is present everywhere why would ever get worried when i am not idolising any direction. I cannot spin myself all the time to seek the God. Practically i can face only one direction at a single time, so if people at communitry gatherings at temples follow the Qibla, would i tell them to spin and rotate constantly to show their seeking of the God. Whichever direction is the Qibla it seems practical, but constant spinning and rotating is not at all practical. What's the fuss all about when the God is niether absent from the direction of the Qibla nor from the other directions.
If you really don't think that it is not a big deal then don't face a particular direction. Just face anywhere while praying. Remember that the previous "qibla" (regardless of what it was) is a big deal except for those that the god guided.
Peace,
Ayman
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Those who think that facing Qibla is a pagan concept have a misconception about the presence of the God. What if you say that all directions are pagan concepts so the Quranic ayat which says that the God is present evrywhere may seem to you as a pagan insertion. Wherever you turn you face God, even if people are facing Qibla they are facing the God. Now if you have a problem why did the God chose a direction then why do'nt you have a problem that the God did not punish satan instantly and set him free ? It is a trial for those who have disease in thier hearts.
Z You must remember, your "qibla" is a rock/cube building that's known to have emanated from Pagan origins.
And regarding your arguement wherein you try to illogically equivocate "all directions" as being pagan, the fact of the matter is, not all directions are pagan, for one direction is consistent with the concept of Monotheism, while the other direction of venerating a building or rock contradicts Monotheism and leaves one with the concept of polytheism.
6136 And they made for God a portion of what He provided them of crops and the livestock; they said "This is for God," by their claims, "And this is for our partners." So what was for their partners did not reach God, and what was for God, it reached their partners! Miserable is how they judged.
Peace
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Peace Warner,
The Quraan does not say God is everywhere and neither does it say God is in a house.
The concept of "presence" as we see it from our limited human prespective is very limited. What does being "somewhere" mean? Are you somewhere when you are occupying some area? or is it more than that? We are merely like words on a sheet of paper in a book and the ink we were written with occupies a certain 2D space on that paper. We cannot compare our "presence" to that of the author who is present on a level that we can't imagine. This is just my poor humble analogy. The reality is much more amazing. The god is closer to each one of 6 billion people than the jugular vein at the same time.
Anywhere partners are not set up with the god is a house of the god.
The Quraan says take the Sacred mosque/Masjidul Haram as the Qibla and it does not say to take the Kaaba as the Qiblah . Neither does it say Sacred mosque and Kaaba are same.
There were no "mosques" in pre-quranic times and the great reading didn't invent a new Arabic word.
Also I guess Baitullah /House of Allah can mean a sanctuary / sacred area and not a physical house.
Again, according to 2226, anywhere partners are not set up with the god is a house of the god.
Peace Ayman
Does the Quraan say facing the sacred mosque mean facing God or in the direction of God.No it doesn't say any of that and neither do I. It is sectarians who claim such.
It is just a direction.
No, it is not "just a direction". It is what differentiates those who follow the messenger from the hypocrites. This cannot be accomplished by imagining to face any shrine.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman
Appreciate your patience and answers to my comments.
I understand or try to understand the meanings of the term ?presence?. But still I have not seen a verse which says God is present everywhere. Can you please quote the verse?
Also I meant mosque with the same meaning as temple. So Masjid ul Haram to me can mean Sacred Temple.Following verse is an example.
17 7
Yusuf Ali If ye did well ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil (ye did it) against yourselves; so when the second of the warnings came to pass (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces and to enter your Temple as they had entered if before and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.In ahsantum ahsantum li anfusikum, wa in asa'tum falaha_, fa iza_ ja_'a wa'dul a_khirati liyasu_'u wuju_hakum wa liyadkhulul masjida kama_ dakhalu_hu awwala marratiw wa liyutabbiru_ ma_ 'alau tatbira_(n).
Also what is your opinion on these 2 verses?
22 40
Yusuf Ali (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right (for no cause) except that they say "Our Lord is Allah." Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another there would surely have been pulled down monasteries churches synagogues and mosques in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid His (cause); for verily Allah is Full of Strength Exalted in Might (Able to enforce His Will).Nil lazina ukhriju_ min diya_rihim bigairi haq qin il la_ ay yaqu_lu_ rab bunal la_h wa laula_ daf'ul la_hin na_sa ba'dahum biba'dil lahud dimat sawa_mi'u wa biya'uw wa salawa_tuw wa masa_jidu yuzkaru fihas mul la_hi katsira_ wa layanshuran nal la_hu may yansuruh in nal la_ha laqawiy yun 'aziz
18 21
Yusuf Ali Thus did We make their case known to the people that they might know that the promise of Allah is true and that there can be no doubt about the Hour of Judgment. Behold they dispute among themselves as to their affair. (Some) said "Construct a building over them" their Lord knows best about them those who prevailed over their affair said "Let us surely build a place of worship over them."Wa kaza_lika a'sarna_ 'alaihim liya'lamu_ anna wa'dalla_hi haqquw wa annas sa_'ata la_ raiba fiha_, iz yatana_za'u_na bainahum amrahum faqa_lu-bnu_ 'alaihim bunya_na_(n), rabbuhum a'lamu bihim, qa_lal lazina galabu_ 'ala_ amrihim lanattakhizanna 'alaihim masjida_(n).
Also our understanding of Sacred Mosque and Kaaba differ. Following link explains my opinion on the subject. Please read and comment if time permits.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12683.msg103528#msg103528
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Peace Taj
Thank you for the verse.
But this verse does not say that God is everywhere.
Of course it does not
sounds like a desperate case to me D
Cheers
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Peace warner,
After reading this thread, I'm kinda confused.
But still I have not seen a verse which says God is present everywhere.
Are you saying that after reading the quran and all the verses, you think God is not present everywhere? Are the verses people quoted in this thread alone, giving you the idea somehow that God is not present everywhere? Please clarify?
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Peace Alen,
Please do not say something as a fact of islam when it is unsupported by al-qur'aan because then it becomes inventing a lie against God. Where in al-qur'aan does God ask us to face "kaaba" ? By facing it without authority from God becomes setting up partners with God cuz then one is following someone else other than God who told one to face it.
Salam mate
isn't 597 clearly telling us that Al Kabba qas mad Al bayt Al haram?
now the question is, do you oppose that the Al Bayt Al Haram to be the same as Al Masjid Al Haram?
Salam
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Do you believe God isn't omnipresent?
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phoenix1 wrote
I don't know.noted! -)
The truth leads us to god, falsehood leads us away.
hmmm..i ll think over this 1! -)
meanwhile..leads us to god and away from god...
..where is god? -)
And I think there's a verse that says that. I'll try to find it for ya.
cool! -)
No. What does that have to do with anything?
with ur calling quran's truth being dependent upon ur personal verification!
I know what truth is.
what is it? -)
Yes. But I don't understand parts of the quran. So I can't possibly verify it yet.
so what u cannot "verify" is not true?
Limited vision? my vision is not limited.
i said if no...but u do claim to know the truth of all things...so yes...if that be the case ur vision encopmasses all things! -)
You are making it too complicated.
it is...life is complicated...reality is complicated....mathematics is complicated...perception is complicated! -)
I read something in a book (hypothesis), I go and verify it, try to do what it says (testing), and I decide whether the hypothesis is true or not.
quran says christ was not killed on the cross test it and tell me ur result! -)
If it is true, I follow it. If it is not, I don't. It is called the scientific method and it works very well. Mankind has made a lot of progress following those steps.
i will comment after u give me the result of ur test! -)
What you are doing is believing Aristotle's idea that heavier objects fall faster. I am doing what Galileo did and verifying that conjecture of himself.
so have u done what galileo did? gone up a tower and thrown down 2 different weights...or whatever he did? -)
go to the top of a tower on a windy day..and throw a feather and a blob of iron....and tell us what u observed! -)
And guess what, I have found that it is not true.
what? aristotle's belief? -)
again...u gave very convenient examples of black/blue font and of 2 + 2 = 4..
...but if u are color blind...u will have a hard time telling some colors from other...like blue/green...so? -)
You should ask that question to yourself. I'm not the one saying it is a mosque.
So, who lives in the kaaba? whose house is it?
u have heard of bayt of allah...
...tell me what u think about it! -)
A house is something someone lives in.
so u agree bayt is a physical strcuture....nice! -)
why don't you answer my questoin. Does "kaaba" mean "base?"
i answered u from a part of my knowledge...what "al kaaba" translates as!
as for ur question...i havent heard of it....
...if u have...u can tell me more about it! -)
It could mean that.
yeah! -)
But that would make the quran wrong. But there is a better explanation of that verse which Ayman has given us.
ur opinion does not make the quran wrong! -)
...i have repeatedly asked u to provide verses/proof...so if u have anything to offer from the quran...or any proof (which can be verified as easy as 2 + 2 = 4..like u want)....if not, then u are still living off assumptions! -)
In the end, I am not giving you assumptions as you keep saying.
but u are...all of us do..to a degree....i think..! -)
...and ur saying it is a pagan structure is an assumption...cuz u have not provided anything to prove it!
u dont know who authored the quran...
...so u cant possibly have been told by the author that al kaaba is not a physical structure! -)
u only told what many non-muslims have repeated over the years...and as i tried to show in that example...it remains their assumption! -)
but v have the book...however...u refuse to acknowledge clear verses of the book! -)
I am not concerned about what the quran says at the moment, because it is full of so many mistranslations and what not.
if u are not concerned about the quran...why are u concerned about that verse? it is from the quran...isnt it? -)
So, my question is, can you prove to me that your interpretation of the quran is correct?
i gave u verses from quran (51-3)...which shows that god is talking about physical things...
...however, u claim that bayt and masjid are abstract...if u can explain why...do so! -)
that God really wants us to face a cube?
the verse talks about almasjid alharam...
...i showed the significance of kaaba cuz u claimed it was a black pagan cube...(which u still have not established) -)
that somehow it helps us? please show me how.
u obey god for ur own good...remember?...maybe that's how it helps u -)
what is the authenticity? if the quran is true, we can use it. If it is not true, we should not use it. It is that simple.
yes...but u cannot seek to understand 1 verse...and disregard other verses which can help in its understanding...citing the reason as its being full of what nots! -)
You think that the quran tells us to face mecca during prayer. you have to prove that that is true.
i think that the almasjid alharam in the verse is a specific physical structure...
i am not forcing it upon anybody...nor writing stuff and making claims that i should prove it...
...still i gave u verses from the quran...which u refuse to acknowledge for ur perceived lack of authenticity! -)
so i have given u the verses from quran...if u do not want to acknowledge the quran and believe in what u want....cool! -)
peace phoenix1! -)
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Peace,
2115 To God belongs the East and the West. Wherever you turn the presence of God is everywhere
All-pervading is He and All-knowing.The presence of Allah is EVERYWHERE, to where do you limit this everywhere?
4126 Unto Allah belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Allah ever surroundeth all things.
Muhit=Surrounds =Allah ever surroundeth all things
To where do you limit the term 'ALL things'? To only inanimate objects? To only your pc? Is a molecule a thing? Belongs it to ALL things?
To where do you limit ALL things and EVERYWHERE?
5016 We created the human, and we know what he whispers to himself. We are closer to him than his jugular VEIN.
Close enough?
226 That is so for God is the undeniable Reality. It is He who brings the dead to life, for He has the power over every thing.
So if He is the undeniable Reality, what are you then?
6102-103 This is God, your Lord; there is no god but He, the Creator of all things. So pay homage to Him, for He takes care of everything. No eyes can penetrate Him, but He penetrates all eyes, and He knows all the mysteries, for He is All-knowing.
Maybe no eyes can penetrate Him as your eyes are also part of His Energy? Because He has no form Himself?
11 With the Glorious Name of Allah, the Source of Instant and Eternal Beneficence and Mercy Who embraces the entire Universe in His fold, nourishing and taking care of all things for what they are meant to be, just as a mother's womb nourishes the embryo without any returns.
'Rahma' is connected with the word 'Rihum' meaning womb. Allah compares Himself with a womb, nourishing us. EMBRACING us.
The evidence is very clear in my eyes.....We are made out of Allah's Energy. He is
5016 We created the human, and we know what he whispers to himself. We are closer to him than his jugular VEIN.
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Also recommend to read this
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,418,0,0,1,0
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Wow, thanks Arnold. Great post. I was having a hard time understanding why people wouldn't think God is omnipresent as it's so clearly mentioned enough to be a basic.
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Peace and greetings,
Point to note is that Allah himself is not part of the Energy. Allah is the Creator of all energy and matter. Allah creates matter and energy by his "be" command out of nowhere. Allah can perish every energy and matter just by His "be" command and He is no need of any matter or energy. Allah is omnipresent which means that He is personaly seeing and witnessing evrything but he is established on the Throne that encompasses the Earth and seven heavens which is the edge of the universe.
Arnold your mentioned 11 reference to Quran cannot be verified. Please tell me the right verse as I have never read such a verse as that.
"
11 With the Glorious Name of Allah, the Source of Instant and Eternal Beneficence and Mercy Who embraces the entire Universe in His fold, nourishing and taking care of all things for what they are meant to be, just as a mother's womb nourishes the embryo without any returns.