REF: virgin birth, what about Cloning ?
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Peace,
Saying Newton wasn't wrong and then saying he was mostly right are contradictory statements. Even if he was wrong in one thing he was wrong about that thing. You should have said he wasn't completely wrong rather than saying he wasn't wrong.
Dear Tanveer, for the last weeks I have tried to discuss with you. But in the end the only thing that is thrown is 'liar' and 'manipulator'. What I will explain now is not a personal attack, it is a personal reflection. I don't consider this behaviour as a 'sin' or something to be embarrased about. I believe everyone has shown this behaviour at least one's in their life. So please read it with a clear mind, and don't see it as personal attack. Your reaction on this post will show eventualy if you have understood it or not. I have tried to avoid personal comments as much a spossible, but now a limit has been reached. The 'attack behaviour which is used now, as instead of asking what a person is saying, immediately he is condemned to liar or manipulator, I have seen this behaviour many times before, I myself had to some extent this behaviour in the past. Instead of respecting somebodies view, or trying to show the person with friendly terms and with patience why he is wrong. The person is attacked and condemned. It is done with emotion and frustration. This shows it is not Allah's Truth that is on the line, but your truth.
This is done under the pretence of 'defending Islam' and 'the correct interpretation'. But this is a complete self-illusion. This is done mostly out of 2 things fear and/or ego. With AB it is mostly because of ego, with you it is done most probably out of fear. Fear of being wrong, fear of not knowing how to base one's belief when it must undergo such rapid changes. Since it is not ready for change or not accepting things can be different, it will defend his point of view with arrogance and aggression. It will take on the mask of 'the defender of Truth', to fool itself as its conciousness's need to be fooled to hang to such ideas. What I meant here is not saying my ideas are right and yours are wrong. What I'm now explaining is the psychology behind the attitude that is shown all around this forum and in this thread. If you are really so confident about your believes, why then is so much emotion to be seen in your posts? Please reflect on this.
To fool one'self that you are the 'truthcrusader' you need an enemy. Whatever this person says will be completely turned around and totaly interpretated in the most extreme ways. Many 'proofs' will be shown and especially the person will be condemned as liar and as manipulator and so on. Sides must be created instead of a grey middle. This typical crusader behaviour is very destructive for one's progress into knowledge. It takes away one's objectiveness and peacefull behaviour.
That you and some others have taken up this behaviour is very clear for many who are following this thread. For example, you said Newton was wrong, I said he wasn't. And later I clarify more that Newton wasn't totaly wrong, as this was also not what I meant. Also you cannot say he was totaly wrong as his findings on pendles and mechanic laws of energy movement are still used today and will be ever. But my 'Newton wasn't wrong' of course immediately applies I mean Newton was NEVER wrong, why? Because you read everything I say with a crusadermind. I'm an enemy of your belief and thus even the smallest statement will be pulled out to the extend.
I'm open for any statement, but till now I haven't seen good justifications for the virginbirth belief. Also because even if it is a rare natural phenomena, WHERE IS THE MIRACLE THEN? Again it will only be part of Allah's Laws, and for me itn will not create more believe in Allah. The whole creation does this already. I know through Quantum Physics that many things are possible which we thought impossible. So also many things that were seen as miracles turn out be part of Allah's Design of the Universe. Again this will not create extra belief, as the whole Universe already has convinced me. But I believe the Universe is controlled by fixed laws, as also can be seen in Quantum Physics, where the behaviour of quanta, first seen as random, now is understood more to again follow certain limits, thus laws. Till nowthere is shown contradictions in this discussion by trying to defend the virginbirth as a possible natural law, and at the same time saying that there are no natural laws to be seen as fixed. Why trying to proof its scientifical possibility when you reject scientifical theories?
I approach the Quran as a Book of Message. A miracle doesn't really contain a message for me, I know already that Allah can do everything as He has created the unbelievable possibility of life. That I exist, that I'm allowed to exist. That the laws of the universe are so precise. So I approach the Quran as a book with a message that convinces, that every verse has a purpose in my life. The story of Mary connects completely with the Dead Sea Scrolls information. This is in my eyes very intruiging, as it unveils very important history. That you approach all history as 'stories of satan' is your approach and not mine. I have my reasons and you have yours. I have studied Biochemistry and study History and Religion for years now, and I try to approach History as scientific as possible using the guidelines of the Quran. To me the Quran is a Guide to the past, present and future. I don't believe it rejects Historical research, it encourages it by also showing the right use and approach. People know I reject tradition as such, so I only accept as highly possible when it has multiple factors supporting it.
This I also do with my interpretation of the story of Mary in the Quran. You now try to say that it is grammatically impossible to interpretate Mary's word not as a virginbirth? Well this is a forcing a view on it if I have seen one. Instead of saying, this is the best possibility because....no suddenly it is the Truth, as if people have a mind that sees it all. I used to think as that too, I have learned to be more carefull with this.
Again you are inventing a lie against God. Where does God say that NO ONE will believe through miracles?
Instead of saying, 'please brother explain yourself and see if we agree', the aggressive accusation is given to act as the 'defender of truth'.
Ok, give me ONE verse that says we will be guided through miracles.......There is nonethat says we will be guided through the supernatural, Allah guides us through reason. He always points out to His creation and its workings.
1679 Do they not see the birds committed to fly in the atmosphere of the sky? None holds them up in the air except GOD. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who believe.
106 In the difference of day and night, and all that Allah has created in the heavens and the earth, there are signs for those who wish to walk aright.[
3191 Those who remember God while standing, and sitting, and on their sides, and they ponder in the creation of the heavens and the Earth "Our Lord you did not create this without purpose, be You glorified, spare us the retribution of the Fire!"
And not through miracles
67 Even if we sent down to them a physical book, written on paper, and they touched it with their hands, those who disbelieved would have said, "This is no more than clever magic."
68 They also said, "If only an angel could come down with him!" Had we sent an angel, the whole matter would have been terminated, and they would no longer be respited.
69 Had we sent an angel, we would have sent him in the form of a man, and we would have kept them just as confused as they are confused now.635 And if their aversion has become too much for you, then perhaps you could make a tunnel in the Earth, or a ladder to the heavens, and bring them a sign. Had God willed, He would have gathered them to the guidance; so do not be of the ignorant ones.
6109 And they swore by God using their strongest oaths; that if a sign came to them they would believe in it. Say "The signs are from God; and how do you know that once it comes, that they would not disbelieve?"
6110 And We divert their hearts and eyesight, as they did not believe in it the first time; and We leave them wandering in their transgression.
6111 And if We had sent down to them the Angels, and the dead spoke to them, and We had gathered before them everything, they still would not believe except if God wills. But most of them are ignorant.A while back in one of your initial posts on this thread (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13174.msg109550#msg109550) you tried to justify your personal theories/opinions and your personal desires by mistranslating a verse
Where does it say in the original arabic of the verse what you mistranslated in the underlined portion ?
Arnold, fear God. You have gone to the extreme of mistranslating God's verses for your own personal desires. This is not an interpretation but a DELIBERATE MISTRANSLATION/WRONG TRANSLATION. You should translate the verse accurately and then give your own conjectural interpretation separately but NOT IN THE VERSE ITSELF.
Here, reflect on the behaviour. Instead of 'Arnold please explain yourself', it is you lie! you mislead! you deliberate mislead people! Is this so? Maybe I have a reason to translate 'yasha' as such. If you disagree fine, but first examine the proof
2284 To God is what is in the heavens and in Earth, and if you declare what is in your souls or hide it, God will call you to account for it. He will forgive whom He wishes yasha, and punish whom He wishes yasha, and God is capable of all things.
Ok, does Allah punish only by His Will? Or through the Laws He has given us in the Quran? Of course Allah can do what He wants, but He promises certain things to us. Will a believer be punished by Allah, even though the believer has done everything Allah has decreed in the Quran?
Allah says this in the Quran
485 That He may admit the believing men and believing women into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath them, abiding eternally therein, and He will remit their sins from them. And with God this is a great triumph.And
2884 Whoever brings forth a good deed, he will receive a better reward than it. And whoever brings forth a sin then the retribution for their sins will be to the extent of their deeds.
People were punished because they went against Allah's Law.
7180 And to God belong the beautiful names, so call Him by them; and ignore those who blaspheme in His names. They will be punished for what they used to do.
Blasphemy the name = will cause punishment=is a Law. Who Allah punishes is determined by the Laws. Thus His Laws are expressing His Will.
This is a promise. So Allah's Will is bound to His Promises. If I follow His Laws, He must reward me, as this is His Promise. So His Will follows His Laws and thus His Laws are His Will.
Another one
3048 God Who sends the winds, so they raise clouds, and He spreads them in the sky as He wishes, then He turns them into joined pieces, then you see the rain drops come forth from their midst. Then when He makes them fall on whomever He wills of His servants, they rejoice!
We know that the workings of the weather is formed by laws. Clouds follow airdensity and are pushed by the factors that are determined by heat and cold air which cause the movement. Heat and cold are determined by the sun, and the sun has a fixed amount of heat outburst as the earth rotates, also every area on earth is only exposed to the earth determined by its position.
Is this movement of the clouds determined by randomn will or by laws that were determined before the creation of the Universe? Does Allah just push a cloud to where He wills? No, we can predict the weather as far as we can follow the factors involved. That weather-prediction is not accurate is because we cannot follow all factors that control the airflows. There are to many factors. But we can see a consistent reaction to factors. With heat, air will rise, it will not come down. When a area has less density of air, wind will be produced, as the less density will suck up air from denser area?s. There is consistency in these behaviour of nature. This is why Allah says we must observe them
2164 Surely, in the creation of heavens and Earth, and the differences between night and day, and the ships that sail in the sea for the benefit of mankind, and what God has sent down of water from the sky so He brings the Earth back to life after it had died, and He sent forth from it every creature, and the movement of the winds and the clouds that have been designated between the Earth and the sky are signs for a people that understand.
3046 And from His signs is that He sends the winds with glad tidings, and to give you a taste of His mercy, and so that the ships may sail by His command, and that you may seek of His bounty; perhaps you will be thankful.
Also this one
4249 To God is the sovereignty of the heavens and the Earth. He creates whatever He wills. He bestows daughters to whomever He wills, and bestows sons to whomever He wills.
Just as we were discussing in this thread. A boy or a girl is determind by an Y or X chromosome. The spermcell that makes it first to the femalecell, is that random will or is that determined by Laws? Well why do you think you ejeculate 100.000's of spermcells? Because one will have the correct position and path to reach the femalecell first. It is determined by the conditions the spermcell is in, which determines if it is first or not. And which conditions are the ones that will make a spermcell be first, were already determined in the Laws of nature. Laws that determine what is needed to make a spermcell quick or slow.
So what is Allah's Will here then? Is it not the Laws that determine the best position of a spermcell? Why a spermcell is first, is always determined by certain factors. When a runner wins a marathon, is it because of certain factors, or because random will, or is there a pattern to be found in why somebody wins or loses?
36 He is the One who pictures/shapes you in the wombs as He pleases. There is no god but Him, the Noble, the Wise.
How are foetusses shaped? What determines this? Is this not the factors involved? The food the mom eats. How much she rests. If she bumps the stomach or not. The genes the baby has? Are those genes not determined by the sperm and egg cells genes, and in which conditions the egg and sperm were created and and in which conditions they have merged their genes in?
Do these procedures follow random processes or fixed processes? Are these not determined by Laws of the Universe?
So what is Allah's Will? Is it random tampering with the creation? I believe not, Allah says we must look at the creation, investigate it. Why investigate it if it follows random processes? No, we must investigate them as understanding these laws and following them is following Allah's Will. It is the Laws that He has determined when creating the Universe. All must folow these Laws. When they follow these Laws, they are following Allah's Will. When we follow the Quran, we are following Allah's Will. Now, you will understand why I translate yasha with 'Laws' or 'Due Measure', as indeed 'yasha' means Will, but the Will of Allah are expressed in His Laws of the Universe.
If you believe a thing or not, are determined by Laws that control your psyche. Allah's Laws, thus Allah's Will. As these Laws and how you interact with them decide if you believe or not.
2142 The foolish from amongst the people will Say "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."
They ask 'Why did they change their Qibla?'. Our reply is 'It is God's Will'. So what is His Will? Well He says 2 verses later
2144 We see the shifting of thy face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
Allah shows us His Will, through His Laws He gives us in the Quran.
313 There was a sign for you in the two groups that met. One was fighting in the cause of God, and the other was rejecting. They thus saw them as twice their number with their eyes. And God supports with His victory whom He wills. In this is a lesson for those with vision.
Is victory attained through random will or through fixed Laws? It is of course the factors that comply to the Laws that will gain the victory. This is why Allah says
860 And prepare for them all that you can of might, and from the steeds of war, that you may instil fear with it towards God's enemy and your enemy, and others beside them whom you do not know but God knows them. And whatever you spend in the cause of God will be returned to you, and you will not be wronged.
It is through good preparation and equipment and good men that decide a war's outcome. This is Allah's Will that is shown through His Laws. A true believer will always try to follow Allah's Laws. Allah promises us victory, but only when we follow His Laws that are in the Quran.
People who misunderstand Allah's Will believe Allah's Mercy is random, and is recieved through intervention of Allah
3647 And when it is said to them, ?Spend on others of the provision Allah has given to you?, the rejecters say to the believers, ?Shall we feed anyone whom Allah could have fed if He so willed? You people are obviously lost in error.?
They don't understand that feeding the poor is a Law of Allah, and through that Law His Will is expressed.
So Allah's Will is expressed in His Laws. Thus Allah's yasha/Will is equal to His Laws.
This is why I also believe that with Mary, her pregnancy followed the Laws of Allah. If this turned out to be parathenogenesis, I will accept, as this is the Law of Allah working, His Will. But to understand His Laws, we must observe them, and till now I'm not convinced parathenogenesis is workable in a natural way in mammals as it is with reptiles and other lower forms of species. Also I adhere to Intelligent Design Evolution, as this has the most evidence and is supported by the Quran in my view. If the Laws of Allah which carry out His Will show different causes, then I will accept them.
So next time, ask first instead of condeming. Dear brother, please think it through carefully. We don't have to agree on things, but your condeming is only justifying your need to be right, and is not defending Allah's Truth undefinitely.
So who is manipulating? Are you willing to admit that my explanation is pretty reasonable and maybe even most likely to be correct? As you said, it takes a strong human being to admit this. Are you also strong enough to react without emotion, and first read my post without any emotion. We all make mistakes, and I have made many, and Alhamdullileh I saw them when people pointed my behaviour out to me. This is hard. You can only do this through Allah's Will, which is to be objective, as the human psyche will not think clearly when it has its emotions triggered.
I really do hope you will understand this all. We are not obliged to agree, but at least we are obliged to respect each other and not condemning each other.
Salam Aleikum
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Peace "tanveer",
Another problem with this is that the cloning from females only results in females but Jesus was male. That would require yet additional manipulation to one of the the x-chromosomes in order to attain y-chromosme properties thus becoming such which is as far as i know not a single process and whther a direct transition from x - y is natural is all the more doubtful. GOD Bless! -
Peace jonny_k,
Another problem with this is that the cloning from females only results in females but Jesus was male. That would require yet additional manipulation to one of the the x-chromosomes in order to attain y-chromosme properties thus becoming such which is as far as i know not a single process and whther a direct transition from x - y is natural is all the more doubtful. GOD Bless!
I gave the example of cloning not to prove that Jesus's birth was exactly like that but to disprove Arnold's misinterpretation of virgin birth IN GENERAL of being impossible in humans (cloning proves virgin birth is possible), and to disprove his misinterpretation that a pair is created ONLY by a sperm (cloning can create male or female without a sperm).
It is also possible to clone an XY MALE from an XY FEMALE (e.g. Swyer's syndrome) through first repair of the SRY mutation in a somatic cell (possible by gene splicing techniques) and then cloning that repaired somatic cell. Again I am not saying that this is EXACTLY how Jesus was created, but that it is scientifically possible to clone a physiological male from a physiological female. No human can, however, replicate the superior "be" technology of God !!
Parthenogenesis might come close as males can arise from females by parthenogenesis (e.g. honey bees) and scientists believe that parthenogenesis is theoretically possible in mammals too.
Peace
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Peace Tay,
Duly noted...which begs the question, if cloning does not explain Isa's birth, isn't this thread a waste of time? No offense bro. By now I hope you can see that I do respect you and your knowledge on the subject. But I'm a bottom-line kind of person and if the bottom line is still clouded in mystery, then all this scientific debate is fruitless.
No this debate is not fruitless or waste of time. For details please see my reply to Khizar above and many other posts in which I have been repeating that same thing. The discussion is not to exactly explain Jesus's birth but to disprove some of Arnold's misinterpretations of some qur'aanic verses such as 4913 and 5345-46, thereby proving that Jesus's virgin birth does not contradict qur'aan, and is POSSIBLE WITHOUT CONTRADICTING QUR'AAN.
Arnold rejects Jesus's virgin birth on the basis of those misinterpretations whereby he tries to prove that because virgin birth in humans is impossible (cloning proves otherwise), and that a pair always arises from a sperm (cloning and parthenogenesis proves otherwise), so Jesus's virgin birth is impossible as it would contradict qur'aan (based on his misinterpretations), and hence misinterprets Mary's reaction to the good news based on these other misinterpretations which I have disproven by various scientific facts.
Peace
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Peace maxq,
Then please keep believing that this whole universe is running on random acts of God...
That is not what I believe
I believe that there are natural laws which don't change, and there are other natural laws too that we still don't understand or know which might explain some of the things we consider supernatural right now, and that God also intervenes from time to time, not randomly but based on His attributes and His promises. God can intervene without changing any laws too. For example he can cause the death of someone at a certain time without changing any natural laws or prevent the death of someone at a certain time, just by relevant intervention.
How do you explain one person jumping from a height of say a few feet and dying and another person jumping from 20,000 feet without a parachute and still surviving with minor injuries ? How do you explain someone who clinically died for hours and then came back ? How do you explain someone going in a coma for many years and then coming back intact ? How do you explain someone losing his sight for many years and being completely blind and then suddenly waking up one day with normal vision with no medical explanation ? How do you explain someone completely healthy misstepping and twisting one's ankle and thus missing a plane which later crashed with no survivors, and another person making it in time for the same flight against all odds and subsequently dying in the crash ? There are so many medical "miracles" that defy explanations based on "natural laws".
How do you explain the following two examples from qur'aan, among many others, based on non intervention of God and the natural laws ?
2259 Or the one who passed through a town, where all its inhabitants had passed away. He said "How can God possibly resurrect this after its death?" So God put him to death for one hundred years, then He resurrected him. He said "How long have you stayed here?" He said "I have stayed here a day or part of a day." He said "No, you have stayed here for one hundred years! Look at your food and drink, they have not changed, but look at your donkey! And We will make you a sign for the people; and look at the bones how We grow them, then We cover them with flesh." So when it was clear to him what happened, he said "I now know that God is capable of all things!"
349 And as a messenger to the Children of Israel "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; that I create for you from clay the form of a bird, then I blow into it and it becomes a bird by God's leave, and I heal the blind and the leapers, and give life to the dead by God's leave, and I prophesize for you what you shall eat and what to store in your homes. In that is a sign for you if you are believers."
Quantum physics actually proves that God intervenes actively all the time and if He stops being an observer/interactor even for a nano second, the whole universe might cease to exist.
Peace
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Peace maxq,
The offspring of parthenogenesis will be all female if two like chromosomes determine the female sex (such as systems where XX is female and XY is male), but male if the female sex is determined by unlike chromosomes (such as systems where WZ is female and ZZ is male)
What you said above proves that a male can arise from a female by parthenogenesis like a FEMALE honey bee laying an egg and then a MALE drone arising from it by parthenogenesis without fertilization by a sperm. In a human, it is theoretically possible for an XY male to arise from an XY female, or an XX male to arise from an XX female by parthenogenesis or cloning. Don't tell me now that there is no such thing as XX males in humans !!
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Peace Arnold Yasin, how do you view the verses 22-2 & 22-5? One verse talks about a new creation (normal full length pregnancy) while the other verse terminates that creation abruptly (on that day). Do you see it as one law overriding the other law? I believe your position is that one law cannot interfere with other laws. Please explain and correct me if my understanding of your position is wrong. Thanks.
222 ("Progressive Muslims"
The day you see it, every nursing mother will leave her suckling child, and every pregnant one will miscarry, and you will see the people drunk while they are not drunk, but the retribution of God is most severe.
225
O mankind, if you are in doubt as to the resurrection, then We have created you from dirt, then from semen, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh developed and undeveloped so that We make it clear to you. And We allow it in the wombs as We wish to an appointed time, then We bring you out a child, then you reach your maturity, and of you are those who are taken, and of you are those who are sent to an old age where he will not be able to learn any new knowledge after what he already has. And you see the land still, but when We send down the water to it, it vibrates and grows, and it brings forth of every lovely pair. -
Peace Arnold,
A long post and still no answer/explanation of what I commented in my post.
Here is what you said in one of your posts
You are defending a miracle-belief that in my eyes goes against the Quran's message that tells us no one will believe through miracles.
This statement of yours is clearly saying that the message of al-qur'aan is that NO ONE will believe through miracles.
Here is the verse that you quoted to prove that (I will give the free-minds translation)
6111 And if We had sent down to them the Angels, and the dead spoke to them, and We had gathered before them everything, they still would not believe except if God wills. Alas, most of them are ignorant.
Firstly, this verse is talking ONLY about those who set up partners and not all mankind. Secondly it is saying that those who set up partners will not believe in miracles EXCEPT if God wills. What that means is that IN GENERAL the mushrikeen will not believe in miracles, but if God wills then some of them might. So there is a possibility that some of them might believe through miracles from God (by God's will) thus becoming believers from disbelievers.
How can you interpret from this that NO ONE will believe through miracles ?? Keep in mind that NO ONE means none among mankind including believers, and also none among the mushrikeen, whereas according to 6111 SOME mushrikeen might still believe through the miracles, by God's will.
Thus actually this verse proves that SOME mushrikeen might believe through miracles by God's will, which contradicts your interpretation. Please tell me what is it called in English language when one claims that a book is saying some specific thing whereas the book is saying something totally opposite/contradictory ? If I say that Arnold said so and so, whereas Arnold said something totally opposite, what will I be called ??
Now let us substitute "if God implements laws" instead of "God wills" in 6111
6111 And if We had sent down to them the Angels, and the dead spoke to them, and We had gathered before them everything, they still would not believe except if God implements laws. Alas, most of them are ignorant.
Still the meaning is the same that SOME mushrikeen will believe through miracles if God implements His laws and not that NO ONE will believe through miracles.
I'm open for any statement, but till now I haven't seen good justifications for the virginbirth belief. Also because even if it is a rare natural phenomena, WHERE IS THE MIRACLE THEN? Again it will only be part of Allah's Laws, and for me itn will not create more believe in Allah. The whole creation does this already. I know through Quantum Physics that many things are possible which we thought impossible. So also many things that were seen as miracles turn out be part of Allah's Design of the Universe. Again this will not create extra belief, as the whole Universe already has convinced me. But I believe the Universe is controlled by fixed laws, as also can be seen in Quantum Physics, where the behaviour of quanta, first seen as random, now is understood more to again follow certain limits, thus laws. Till nowthere is shown contradictions in this discussion by trying to defend the virginbirth as a possible natural law, and at the same time saying that there are no natural laws to be seen as fixed. Why trying to proof its scientifical possibility when you reject scientifical theories?
A miracle appears as "miracle" and supernatural only as long as we do not understand/discover the "laws" behind it. Once we understand/discover the laws behind it, the "miracle" is not a "miracle" any more. For example
1679 Do they not see the birds committed to fly in the atmosphere of the sky? None holds them up in the air except GOD. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who believe.
106 In the difference of day and night, and all that Allah has created in the heavens and the earth, there are signs for those who wish to walk aright.
The phenomenon described in these verses were also "miracles" until we understood/discovered the laws behind them. The technology we take for granted today will appear as "miracles" to someone from 500 years ago.
We do not understand or know ALL of God's laws, thus when He implements some of those unknown laws by His will, the results might appear miraculous to us, but that doesnt mean the results happened because some of the known laws were changed. It still demonstrates His intervention without changing His laws !!
It is postulated that according to string theory and quantum physics interdimensional travel is possible; thus it is possible that under the right conditions an object might go to another dimension and thus vanish temporarily, and a different object from another dimension might come into our dimension in its place, thus creating the miracle of one object changing to another.
What are the following verses if not intervention of God and "miracles" ? How do the "natural laws" explain them ?
2259 Or the one who passed through a town, where all its inhabitants had passed away. He said "How can God possibly resurrect this after its death?" So God put him to death for one hundred years, then He resurrected him. He said "How long have you stayed here?" He said "I have stayed here a day or part of a day." He said "No, you have stayed here for one hundred years! Look at your food and drink, they have not changed, but look at your donkey! And We will make you a sign for the people; and look at the bones how We grow them, then We cover them with flesh." So when it was clear to him what happened, he said "I now know that God is capable of all things!"
5110 God said "O Jesus son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and in old age; and I taught you the Scripture and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Injeel; and you would create from clay the shape of a bird, then blow into it and it becomes a bird by My leave; and you heal the blind and the leaper by My leave; and you brought out the dead by My leave. And I have restrained the Children of Israel from you, that you came to them with proofs; but those who rejected amongst them said "This is clearly magic!""
I approach the Quran as a Book of Message. A miracle doesn't really contain a message for me, I know already that Allah can do everything as He has created the unbelievable possibility of life.
The "miracles" described in al-qur'aan RE-INFORCE one's belief in God. Why would God tell us He is capable of doing anything He wants and then repeat that over and over again in al-qur'aan when believers already believe that ?
220 2106 2109 2148 2259 326 329 3165 3189 4133 4149 517 519 540 595 5120 617 939 114 1670 1677 1845 226 2318 2445 2554 2920 3050 4139 4250 4821 572 596 607 641 6512 671
Arnold, are you better than Abraham that these "miracles" will not re-inforce/strengthen your belief ? And how will you explain the underlined portion based on the "natural laws" ?
2260 And Abraham said "My Lord, show me how you resurrect the dead." He said "Do you not already believe?" He said "I do, but it is so my heart can be relieved." He said "Choose four birds, then cut them, then place parts of the birds on each mountain, then call them to you; they will come racing towards you. And know that God is Noble, Wise."
Ok, give me ONE verse that says we will be guided through miracles.......There is nonethat says we will be guided through the supernatural, Allah guides us through reason. He always points out to His creation and its workings.
Please see 2260 above in which God guides Abraham through a miracle. If what you are saying is correct, then after God asked him "do you not already believe?", He would not have performed a miracle but would have just said "believe, because I say so".
You mean His creation and its workings are not miraculous ?? The verses you quoted as not being about miracles are about miracles
1679 Do they not see the birds committed to fly in the atmosphere of the sky? None holds them up in the air except GOD. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who believe.
106 In the difference of day and night, and all that Allah has created in the heavens and the earth, there are signs for those who wish to walk aright.
3191 Those who remember God while standing, and sitting, and on their sides, and they ponder in the creation of the heavens and the Earth "Our Lord you did not create this without purpose, be You glorified, spare us the retribution of the Fire!"
"All that God has created in the heavens and the earth" is a miracle. "Birds flying in the sky" is a miracle. Just because you think you understand some of the laws does not mean it is not a miracle any more. Since when have you understood/discovered the laws governing ALL that God has created in the heavens and the earth ?
2284 To God is what is in the heavens and in Earth, and if you declare what is in your souls or hide it, God will call you to account for it. He will forgive whom He wishes yasha, and punish whom He wishes yasha, and God is capable of all things.
Ok, does Allah punish only by His Will? Or through the Laws He has given us in the Quran? Of course Allah can do what He wants, but He promises certain things to us. Will a believer be punished by Allah, even though the believer has done everything Allah has decreed in the Quran?
yasha does not mean "laws" but means "wills" as a verb. God does not punish BY His will but whom He wills. Of course from the qur'anic context, He will punish whom He wills if they choose to disbelieve using their free will.
All laws are according to His will, but His will is not according to His laws. God's will is not the same as His laws. He can will to kill someone at a particular time, whereas He can will to keep another person alive (or save that person) at a particular time in the same exact situation, both without changing any laws of nature.
2884 Whoever brings forth a good deed, he will receive a better reward than it. And whoever brings forth a sin then the retribution for their sins will be to the extent of their deeds.
People were punished because they went against Allah's Law.
7180 And to God belong the beautiful names, so call Him by them; and ignore those who blaspheme in His names. They will be punished for what they used to do.
Blasphemy the name = will cause punishment=is a Law. Who Allah punishes is determined by the Laws. Thus His Laws are expressing His Will.
This is a promise. So Allah's Will is bound to His Promises. If I follow His Laws, He must reward me, as this is His Promise. So His Will follows His Laws and thus His Laws are His Will.
These verses talk about the reward or punishment in the afterlife and not about laws in this life. In this life one might do good and still lead a miserable tortured life or be raped, and one might commit horrible sins but still lead a pleasurable/enjoyable life. Eventually, however, in the afterlife each will get appropriate recompense.
3048 God Who sends the winds, so they raise clouds, and He spreads them in the sky as He wishes, then He turns them into joined pieces, then you see the rain drops come forth from their midst. Then when He makes them fall on whomever He wills of His servants, they rejoice!
We know that the workings of the weather is formed by laws. Clouds follow airdensity and are pushed by the factors that are determined by heat and cold air which cause the movement. Heat and cold are determined by the sun, and the sun has a fixed amount of heat outburst as the earth rotates, also every area on earth is only exposed to the earth determined by its position.
Is this movement of the clouds determined by randomn will or by laws that were determined before the creation of the Universe? Does Allah just push a cloud to where He wills? No, we can predict the weather as far as we can follow the factors involved. That weather-prediction is not accurate is because we cannot follow all factors that control the airflows. There are to many factors. But we can see a consistent reaction to factors. With heat, air will rise, it will not come down. When a area has less density of air, wind will be produced, as the less density will suck up air from denser area?s. There is consistency in these behaviour of nature.
Yes, the natural laws remain the same but where a hurricane comes, where a cloud forms, and where it rains is according to His will, without changing any natural laws. Thus God's will IS NOT SAME as natural laws. The laws are according to His will but His will is not according to the laws. For example, I can switch a light bulb on or off, the natural laws remain the same, but it is my will that determines if the light bulb is on or off.
4249 To God is the sovereignty of the heavens and the Earth. He creates whatever He wills. He bestows daughters to whomever He wills, and bestows sons to whomever He wills.
Just as we were discussing in this thread. A boy or a girl is determind by an Y or X chromosome. The spermcell that makes it first to the femalecell, is that random will or is that determined by Laws? Well why do you think you ejeculate 100.000's of spermcells? Because one will have the correct position and path to reach the femalecell first. It is determined by the conditions the spermcell is in, which determines if it is first or not. And which conditions are the ones that will make a spermcell be first, were already determined in the Laws of nature. Laws that determine what is needed to make a spermcell quick or slow.
The sex of the child is determined by God's will, and then the appropriate sperm is guided to the egg under the natural laws. Which sperm meets the egg is determined by His will (intervention). How does it happen that sometimes a defective weak sperm meets/fertilizes the egg causing a genetically deformed child despite presence of millions of stronger, healthier sperms in the ejaculate ? According to your defective understanding, only healthier stronger sperms should be able to make it to the egg. This fact alone shows that you do not understand the concept of God's will. How is it that a certain couple cannot have a child even though both of them are perfectly healthy and fertile, no matter how hard they try and another couple keep having children after children even when they use contraceptives ?
313 There was a sign for you in the two groups that met. One was fighting in the cause of God, and the other was rejecting. They thus saw them as twice their number with their eyes. And God supports with His victory whom He wills. In this is a lesson for those with vision.
Is victory attained through random will or through fixed Laws? It is of course the factors that comply to the Laws that will gain the victory. This is why Allah says
860 And prepare for them all that you can of might, and from the steeds of war, that you may instil fear with it towards God's enemy and your enemy, and others beside them whom you do not know but God knows them. And whatever you spend in the cause of God will be returned to you, and you will not be wronged.
It is through good preparation and equipment and good men that decide a war's outcome. This is Allah's Will that is shown through His Laws. A true believer will always try to follow Allah's Laws. Allah promises us victory, but only when we follow His Laws that are in the Quran.
Sometimes a handful of people overpower an army much bigger in size even when they have inferior weapons and strength. That is God's will (by God putting his fear in the opposing armies heart) even though "natural" laws would dictate otherwise.
So what is Allah's Will? Is it random tampering with the creation? I believe not, Allah says we must look at the creation, investigate it. Why investigate it if it follows random processes? No, we must investigate them as understanding these laws and following them is following Allah's Will. It is the Laws that He has determined when creating the Universe. All must folow these Laws. When they follow these Laws, they are following Allah's Will. When we follow the Quran, we are following Allah's Will. Now, you will understand why I translate yasha with 'Laws' or 'Due Measure', as indeed 'yasha' means Will, but the Will of Allah are expressed in His Laws of the Universe.
I have already shown that "yasha" cannot be translated as "laws" but only as "will". Universe follows fixed laws but God can and does tamper and intervene in the universe, not randomly but in accordance with His attributes, His promise, and His will.
Peace
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What you said above proves that a male can arise from a female by parthenogenesis like a FEMALE honey bee laying an egg and then a MALE drone arising from it by parthenogenesis without fertilization by a sperm. In a human, it is theoretically possible for an XY male to arise from an XY female, or an XX male to arise from an XX female by parthenogenesis or cloning. Don't tell me now that there is no such thing as XX males in humans !!
Well, what can I say... lol...
Why are you bent on disrespecting a prophet just to propoagate your theory? Do you know what you are proposing? You mean Jesus was "deficient" somehow??
I for sure will not participate further in this thread. -
Peace,
Well, what can I say... lol...
Why are you bent on disrespecting a prophet just to propoagate your theory? Do you know what you are proposing? You mean Jesus was "deficient" somehow??
I for sure will not participate further in this thread.You don't even bother to read all my posts and then hurl accusations at me and put words in my mouth. I should've known this tendency of yours when you quoted a lot of scientifically inaccurate/incorrect things in your posts as facts without doing diligent research beforehand. It just destroys your credibility. Read my posts addressed to Tay and jonny_k above in addition to others and then compare it to what you fabricated/invented about me. When I expose your scientific ignorance about something this is how you respond ? Thank you for showing your true colors.
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Peace phoenix,
Tanveer still believes that no one can understand the quran.
You owe me an apology here for misquoting me. Where did I say that ?
What I said was that the muhkamat verses of qur'aan are very clear and can be understood by everyone but only God knows the true meaning of the mutashabihat verses so we should not keep speculating on their meaning or interpretation if we cannot fully understand them as per 37. However, I believe in all of qur'aan being from God even when I cannot understand portions of it per 37. When did I say no one can understand the quran (which means the quran as a whole) ?
I didn't expect this kind of carelessness from you. Destroys your credibility about your "logical" approach. A person who uses reason, mind and logic cannot be careless like this.
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Peace guest, Arnold, all,
Peace Tanveer, I would like to inform you of some contradictory statement you made in your post of ?Reply #83 on December 22, 2006, 050343 AM?. I hope you will take these criticisms in a positive manner.
- You said ?My intention and aim in this thread was ? ?
Your intention, any special engagement rules for conducting the debate, arbitration rules, special conditions, etc. should be in the first post and not the end post
- You said ?We should heed the message of 37 and try to focus primarily on the muhkamat verses of al-qur'aan.?
Yet you are the one who started (continued) this thread on non-muhkamat verse. Why didn?t you heed to 37 prior to start of the debate
- You said ?We should not endlessly engage in debating/discussing/trying to figure out the true meanings of the mutashabihat verses .. ...?
Since you are the originator of the post it becomes your responsibility to end the debate properly. The way you came across is like you had enough of it and therefore you are stopping it or that you are not going to devote any more time to it. I think you are misusing the verse 37 to end the debate prematurely. That not right.
Thank you guest for your expose (pronounced ek-spoh-zey). Shows how human/imperfect I am with all those contradictions ! You guys can continue debating but I believe I have accomplished what I wanted to in this thread and don't have much left to add.
Brother Arnold, I apologize if you took something I said out of my ignorance as a personal attack. I respect you as a person and a brother and am grateful for some of your insights but after all we are all humans and can make mistakes and I agree to disagree with some of your interpretations. May God guide us all to the truth and the straight path.
Peace
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Peace,
Dear Tanveer, I'm gratefull to Allah you understand my post.
So let's get back to the subject. If a miracle is not supernatural, but just a misunderstood or not discovered Law of Nature. Then it is equal to all other Laws of Nature as gravity. So it contains no extra message then in my eyes. It is as much a sign as everything else in the creation. So let's move on.
To understand 6111, you must understand how Allah's Will is expressed in the Creation. Which is through His Laws. So the verse is in my eyes to be understood as that the mushrikeen will would only believe in miracles/signs if the Laws that express Allah's Will in the Universe would allow it. Yasha means 'will/wish', I never questioned that, it is about how this Will is expressed in the Universe. There is no verse in the Quran by my knowledge that says we will belief more through the Supernatural. Only through objective observation of the Universe and in trying to understand it.
I think we agree that it all will follow Allah's Laws. If you approach the verses as miracles or as mistranslated & misunderstood metaphors, we both agree that all signs of Allah will follow His Laws.
The Miracle is the Laws of the Universe itself. That is the proof of Allah's Power and Wisdom.
As for 2259, it is directly connected with the birds of Abraham.
2260 And when Abraham said "My Rabb, show me how you revive the dead." He said "Did you not believe?" he said "Yes certainly, and but for my heart and mind to be secure." He said "So take four from the birds, so take them close to you, then put on every mountain from them a portion, then call them , they come to you fast , and know that God is glorious, mighty, powerful and dignified, wise and judicious."
Here Abraham asks how the dead are raised. But which dead? In the Quran you have three sorts of dead
- Real bodily dead people who will be revived in the Hereafter.
- People who are dead of understanding and faith, and thus will not grow in
Iman, faith, so they can attain Paradise on earth and in the Hereafter. - Nations which are not powerful and mostly conquered and oppressed and
make no progress for their society to develop.
When we look at verses 2258 where a discussion is going on between Abraham and man, probably a ruler. Abraham says that only Allah really gives life and death, hajat and maut. These two words can be applied to humans, plants as well as nations. In 2259 we see a story on a person that walks through a city which is called dead and he wonders how God can revive it, thus making it alive with people again and make it flourish. God gives a metaphor that it is like any other resurrection. A revival of nation must, like the resurrection, follow the Divine Laws of Nature. In line with the previous verses, 2260 talks about the revival of nations as Abraham is promised a might nation and offspring. Most people read into it that Abraham cut up the birds and then call them, but the sentence preceding it tells us that he must bring the birds close to him, in other words, train and tame them, so they will respond to his call. So why train them and then cut them up? This is illogical. It is much simpler, the group was split up, the birds were not cut up, and put on every mountain. The birds were called and responded. In the same way will God train us through Revelation, the Quran, so we will respond to His call and be close to Him. And thus I believe verse 2259 falls under 37 and should not be taken literally.
And then you have this very misunderstood verse
5110 God said "O Jesus son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and in old age; and I taught you the Scripture and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Injeel; and you would create from clay the shape of a bird, then blow into it and it becomes a bird by My leave; and you heal the blind and the leaper by My leave; and you brought out the dead by My leave. And I have restrained the Children of Israel from you, that you came to them with proofs; but those who rejected amongst them said "This is clearly magic!""The healings of Jesus are meant metaphorically. Like the words used in 349, the word is abras, one suffering from lukoderma, a disease that discolours the skin, and not judham, leprosy. Probably under evangelical influences did it got confused with leprosy. Metaphorically, however, it means, to have ones misfortune added to another. Ibn Faris says that al-biras means, barren portions of the desert, whence the metaphorical meaning of misfortune, so Jesus cured misfortunes by teaching people the truth. The Quran compares moral crimes to diseases, and calls those guilty of them, deaf, dumb and blind, as in 218 and diseased of the heart in 210 and even dead as in 2780, that is why the scripture, which is the Truth, is called a healing in 4144. It is again, shown that people distort the metaphorical meanings, and don't take the Quran as its guide how the read things. That Jesus his healings were taken literally is of course through evangelical influences in the Muslim world. It is part of the global collective thinking of all Muslims, including those follow the Quran alone. Multiple meanings of words are neglected and miracle-belief is prefered over more logical meanings of verses.
Tair has multiple meanings besides to bird, it also means omen as in 7131, 2747, 3619, actions and register of deeds as in 1713, it is also applied to non-winged beings, tayyar means fleet-flooted horse, and at-tairan is metaphorically used for marching to jihad. It also means destiny or fortune, as in this verse, as when birds were seen as messengers of the gods in ancient times. Also when birds as vultures were seen, people knew somebody is meeting or has met their fate, their doom. This is how meanings as destiny were also applied to Tair. Jesus people were in a deplorable state 3112, and he raised them up out of that dust/low state.
5110 When Allah will say, ?O Jesus, son of Mary! Recall My blessings upon you and your mother. I strengthened you with Sacred Revelation, enabled you to speak eloquently to the people while still in childhood, and also at a later age (345). I gave you revelation and wisdom including the Torah and the Gospel. Recall when you formed the state of your people's destiny and that you would raise them from dust up into the heights of glory by My leave (7176). You made people see the Truth otherwise given to blind following by My leave. You healed the wounds of inequity on people by My leave, and you gave a new meaning to life to those who were otherwise no better than dead by My leave (348, 3111, 6123). Recall, how I prevented the Children of Israel from harming you when you came to them with all evidence of the truth (4157). And those who were bent upon denying the truth said, ?This is nothing but clear deception.?
I rather first try to look for more logical explanations, before I go for the not-understood Laws of nature/miracle explanation. I have written a book on almost all the verses in the Quran that are seen as miracles. See the PDF attached to at the bottom of this post. It is still a work in progress.
It doesn't matter if we disagree on matters, but you will see I have good reasons why I believe what I believe as I have researched all the possibilities I could research till now. And I have found that there are no miracles in the Quran. Only mis-chosen Arabic meanings or misunderstood metaphors. This is my understanding, and I will always be open minded. If you have read my articles, you will see I have studied and follow Quantum Physics closely. But Quantum Field and other knowledge, doesn't immediately support belief in miracles, as I myself also don't see the Message in it. I have tried to understand the verses from a point of view that the meaning carry a message to me, and the more reasonable approach indeed gives me beautifull messages.
If you want to discuss my findings in my PDF, please first PM me, we will start a new thread together.
Peace my brother.
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Dear bro Tanveer... The premise, as suggested by the topic itself and by your persistance, was that your wanted to rationalize your claim, first through parthenogenesis - which is not obeseved in mammals (since it would be a chain reaction and VERY observable if it happened), second that mammilian parthenogenesis would result in birth of female parthenogens - which you claimed may also have a chance of having XX type male birth (true), to which I tried to point out that not only are XX type males mostly sterile, but are also abnormal... Your premise and intention seems clear even if you were not explicit in your statement.
If I misunderstood you somehow, I apologize. But I only went by what you posted bro...
BTW, what do you know about me and my "true colours"?
Peace,
You don't even bother to read all my posts and then hurl accusations at me and put words in my mouth. I should've known this tendency of yours when you quoted a lot of scientifically inaccurate/incorrect things in your posts as facts without doing diligent research beforehand. It just destroys your credibility. Read my posts addressed to Tay and jonny_k above in addition to others and then compare it to what you fabricated/invented about me. When I expose your scientific ignorance about something this is how you respond ? Thank you for showing your true colors.
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Peace "tanveer",
It is also possible to clone an XY MALE from an XY FEMALE (e.g. Swyer's syndrome) through first repair of the SRY mutation in a somatic cell (possible by gene splicing techniques) and then cloning that repaired somatic cell. Again I am not saying that this is EXACTLY how Jesus was created, but that it is scientifically possible to clone a physiological male from a physiological female. No human can, however, replicate the superior "be" technology of God !!
JK- I always appreciate the scientific approach. This is very interesting but what is an "xy" woman capable of conceiving? In other words does such a female have all the necessry organs required for conception? If yes then that would be amazing. But the problem remains why is GOD comparing Jesus with Adam if the latter also had parents? Or wait, maybe the definition is the problem. Adam didnt have human parents, say he came, and this is most probable according to science, as a result of a final transition from apelike to man, thus GOD at this stage created a new creature. From that time till now there has been no further macro evolution in the human beings except Jesus. Now in case of Jesus GOD could mean yet another transition. jesus was thus indeed a unique human, who was born without normal human parents just as adam. Thus UNIQUE BIRTH could be the similarity of both. What do u guys say abt tht? GOD Bless!
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Peace Tanveer,
No this debate is not fruitless or waste of time. For details please see my reply to Khizar above and many other posts in which I have been repeating that same thing. The discussion is not to exactly explain Jesus's birth but to disprove some of Arnold's misinterpretations of some qur'aanic verses such as 4913 and 5345-46, thereby proving that Jesus's virgin birth does not contradict qur'aan, and is POSSIBLE WITHOUT CONTRADICTING QUR'AAN.
Got it. I guess those weren't the fruits I was looking for
Arnold rejects Jesus's virgin birth on the basis of those misinterpretations whereby he tries to prove that because virgin birth in humans is impossible (cloning proves otherwise), and that a pair always arises from a sperm (cloning and parthenogenesis proves otherwise), so Jesus's virgin birth is impossible as it would contradict qur'aan (based on his misinterpretations), and hence misinterprets Mary's reaction to the good news based on these other misinterpretations which I have disproven by various scientific facts.
Thanks for the explanation. Though I can't speak for Arnold, based on his posts thus far, I don't think his basis is hinged solely on the contradiction. Anyway, as for me, my beef is with the sporadic intervention, the historical coincidence, and the comparison to Adam. The science jargon is out of my league and doesn't really get to the heart of the matter imo.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Johnny,
Thus UNIQUE BIRTH could be the similarity of both. What do u guys say abt tht?
I say the similarity is already explained in 359...
The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.You'll notice the qur'an also clearly spells out that all humans were created this way, and that all life comes from water. So, was the Isa-dust different than our dust? I don't believe so. The dust, imo, has some connection to the primordial soup theory - followed by the "be" command (aka lightning) which originated biological life on earth.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace bro "tay",
Peace Johnny,
I say the similarity is already explained in 359...
The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.You'll notice the qur'an also clearly spells out that all humans were created this way, and that all life comes from water. So, was the Isa-dust different than our dust? I don't believe so. The dust, imo, has some connection to the primordial soup theory - followed by the "be" command (aka lightning) which originated biological life on earth.
Peace,
TayJK- Oh and tht reminds me of another beautiful thing James Randi said "We are all made of star dust" since there it came from oriinally. Marvellous aint it? Knowing that and seeing we are still fighting with one another coz of baseless religiosity and quackery greatly disturns me. So ofcourse the Isa dust aint different from ours just like the Adam dust aint different from us. But Adam and Isa are different from us in a way they resulted as a result of a transition. Punctuated equillibrium also seems to make sense btw. The last apelike creatures had in their genes the code now ready to give birth to a new creature which was Adam and his mate. GOD Bless!