Beating Women

unknownuser

Peace bro "AB",

Salam bro

Im very disappointed

Please don?t be, I was not disappointed when you took the dajjal Rashad Khalifa as your prophet

to hear

I guess you mean ?to read? not ?to hear?

you interpret "daraba" in 434 to beat those wives

Hmmm, please bro read what I said again, your statement above is 100% wrong, because 434 does not say to BEAT ANY WIFE, It is the ill conduct ones ONLY

Do you get it bro or you want me to repeat it for the zillion times?

just cause they didnt wanna obey their husbands in a certain manner.

Of course an ill conduct wife should obey her wise husband when he confront her, but if she insists on the ill conduct then no sex and if she insists on the ill conduct again then I will beat my dear and ill conduct wife as 434 is telling me to do with her who adamantly insists on the wrong

Bro, do you really understand 434 or you just tryin to be smart with me?

this is just the same as saying the word "sallu 'ala" means "to pray for" instead of "make contact with/support" thus idolizing Muhammad.

Dismissed due to irrelevance

Both words are nowdays commonly used by Arabs to mean what i said BUT IT IS BIASED, ILLOGICAL AND TOTALLY WRONG.

I don?t like the wishful thinking bro, you need to prove you non sense using the Quran, now let me do what you did to me when you tried to confuse the subject of 434 by comparing it to ?Salla Allah Ala Mohammad?, bro can you prove to me that R K a prophet sent by Allah using the Quran?, cheers

Bro Layth has also quoted 1811 which in context refers to the persons/humans and it doesnt mean "beating".

Well, I didn?t actually read it however if he did then he just shot himself in the foot, let me bring the verse and prove it to every one including Layth

Then We sealed up their hearing in the Cave for a number of years.

(11)

-> Bro Layth got 1811 totally wrong, when we have an action of verb ?Fi?il? then we need a ?Faa?il? i.e. the entity that is doing the action, this type of sentence most likely will include a ?Maf?ool Bihi?, i.e. the entity which the action (the verb) is performed on it by the ?Faa?il?, let me put in simple manner to avoid causing any confusion to those who want to learn

1- Fi?il = Verb = (Action)
2- Faa?il = Noun = (The entity that is performing the action)
3- Maf?ool Bihi = Noun = (The entity which the action is performed on it)

Let?s apply that on 1811 and you will see that Allah (the one who performed the action) never said that He performed it on any human (The Maf?ool Bihi)

The part of 1811 that equal to the above three is highlighted in red

1- Fi?il = Verb = (Action) =

2- Faa?il = Noun = (The entity that is performing the action)

3- Maf?ool Bihi = Noun = (The entity which the action is performed on it)

-> See where bro Layth got it totally wrong, the ?Maf?ool Bihi? which the action is performed on it, is the word ? ?, ?Years?, and as you can see that it is Mansooba Bi Al Fatiha, because any Maf?ool Bihi must be Mansoob, i.e. ?aaaaaa?, ?Senenaaaaa?

I.e. 1811 never stated that Daraba (the action) was performed on any human rather it was performed on the Years, hence it has to be a metaphor to mean ? Then We sealed up their hearing in the Cave for a number of years.?

This mean the verse can also be read as follow

? ?, can you spot the difference?

Wel I have to say the way it is said by Allah by delaying the Maf?ool Bihi to come after more sentence words is more sound and proper in the Arabic language, indeed this technique is widely used in Quran and even by the Arab in their day to day life

I expect bro Layth along with you to concede your fatal mistake regarding 1811, cheers

Now i wanna ask you some questions

Sure

Suppose your wife does not agree with you on a certain issue and rejects your opinion regarding it totally.

The verse does not talk about a decent wife who disagree with her husband, the verse is talking about repetitive offender of an ill conduct wife, do you get it or not?

What she rejected is harmful in your opinion and lets say in some of your neighbours' opinions as well.

Excuse me, we need an example of an ill conduct wife, like a wife who shows half of her breasts in public

What you do to your wife if she insists on that?

I tell you what I will do

I will advice her politely and show her some Quran verses to support my argument against her,
If she insists then I will tell her no sex until she covers her breasts in public
If she insists and I want to keep her then I will beat her, she can take me to court if she wishes and on that day she will be divorced and thrown in the streets and she will never see her children again until she repents, see I dont want my children to be ill conducted like their ill conduct mothe who does not care about the father of those childrenr

How about you, what you will do?

Now youve warned her and deserted her in bed, what would you do next and how?

If I want to keep her then I will beat her as Allah advised me to do and if I don?t want to keep her, no beating and there will be no advice either, she will be thrown in the streets and she will never see her children again until she repents, tough luck to her, she is so ill conduct, isn?t she?

Another situation say tomorrow your wife doesnt wanna believe in the Quran anymore and she decides to consider becoming an atheist.

Excuse me, this is not Nishooz, please stop living your Barbie world of imagination, this is called Kufr and according to the Quran I have to divorce her and marry a believer even if I love my Kafir wife to death

And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful.

(221)

-> See how you got it totally wrong by confusing Kufr with Nishooz?, hmmm, please don?t come and tell me that 2221 is talking about a Mushrik not a Kafir, and if you do then let me tell ya

Every Mushrik is a Kafir but not every Kafir is a Mushrik, (Iblis is a good example to use)

Therefore 2221 covers the Musrik and the Kafir wife, Allah is telling us ? And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you;?, now when I married her she was calling herself a believer and sure no one can know that except Allah, then she started to call herself a disbeliever, now I can?t say that only Allah knows that because that law does not apply to the disbelievers, hence I have to divorce her and marry a believer even if that believer is a slave, and even if I love my Kafir wife to death, this is because she will invite me to the fire ? these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful.?

Now I expect you to concede that you got it wrong by suggesting Kufr is Nishooz, thank you

Again youve warned her, deserted her in bed and then?
GOD Bless!

If you are talking about the wife that became kafir then 434 does not apply and straight away I have to divorce her and look forward to marry a believer even if that believer is a slave and even if I love my kafir wife to death, but if you are talking about a case of Nishooz like showing half of her breasts in public or wearing mini skirts or possibly using too much Max Factor, then 434 will be triggered

Peace all sisters here,
Please dont allow such ignorant and satanic interpretations of Quranic verses to be spread. Also if your married dont remain silent if your husbands' have beaten you. GOD Bless!

Bro, your message above is not accurate, it is just a case of you getting excited, LOL, any way I agree with you that if a husband beats his well conduct and respected wife then she should not be silent as well she should apply what Allah told her to do, that is because the husband in that case will be the one held in contempt and that means we are dealing with a Nashiz husband

And if a woman fears ill usage or desertion on the part of her husband, there is no blame on them, if they effect a reconciliation between them, and reconciliation is better, and avarice has been made to be present in the (people's) minds; and if you do good (to others) and guard (against evil), then surely Allah is aware of what you do.

(12

-> See, the solution for the wise women dealing with an ill conduct husband is almost 2/3 identical to the solution for the wise husband dealing with an ill conduct wife, the only difference between the two that the wise wife should not beat her ill conduct husband and that is to protect her from being hit back by her ill conduct husband

Now why I said your message is not accurate, simply because you are confusing two different subjects

-> First subject of an ill conduct wife and a wise husband, 434 is triggered

-> Second subject of an ill conduct husband and a wise wife, 4128 is triggered

I rest my case for good

Salam

jonny_k

Peace bro "AB",

Excuse me, we need an example of an ill conduct wife, like a wife who shows half of her breasts in public

What you do to your wife if she insists on that?

I tell you what I will do

I will advice her politely and show her some Quran verses to support my argument against her,
If she insists then I will tell her no sex until she covers her breasts in public
If she insists and I want to keep her then I will beat her, she can take me to court if she wishes and on that day she will be divorced and thrown in the streets and she will never see her children again until she repents, see I dont want my children to be ill conducted like their ill conduct mothe who does not care about the father of those childrenr

How about you, what you will do?

JK- This is an extreme example. However even if she insists on that which is ofcourse probably because she is 1) mentally ill 2) the husband did something wrong or was causing injustice by interpreting Quran wrtong suing hadith which we see a hell alot in those hislamic countries. Anyways even if she does that and she remains stubborn the last option would be to sperate. The claim to beat before dicorce is corrupt and nonsensible.

If I want to keep her then I will beat her as Allah advised me to do and if I don?t want to keep her, no beating and there will be no advice either, she will be thrown in the streets and she will never see her children again until she repents, tough luck to her, she is so ill conduct, isn?t she?

JK- If youve beaten her then the judge may decide to take the children away from you as well.

Excuse me, this is not Nishooz, please stop living your Barbie world of imagination, this is called Kufr and according to the Quran I have to divorce her and marry a believer even if I love my Kafir wife to death

JK- Im not talking abt divorce, since tht is fine in this case n is what should happen , no beating. This is your problem you wanna beat her as a last resort before divorce and this can lead to disater. A respecful separation would be adequate. So what is "nushooz". Everyone can interpret that differently and automctically get a ticket to beat her wife if she remins stubborn through the first two options. Give me a list of examples what you think "nushooz" is not just one extreme one.

Every Mushrik is a Kafir but not every Kafir is a Mushrik, (Iblis is a good example to use)

JK- This maybe correct to a certain degree. A kaafir is one who rejects the truth after it comes to him whilst a mushrik is one associating partners with GOD. But it can be argued that a rejector of truth is wrshipping his EGO and thus his committed shirk as well. So theyr kinna interrelated. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peac again,
As for the Arabic regarding 1811, brother "layth" should respond to that since hes well versed in Arabic. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

PEace all

Its been awhile for me, i've been so busy with the holiday season D
Happy New Years and Eid Mubarak to all who celebrate it.

I think the underlying issue is the concept of nishooz. You see, to me i really do believe that the God has made men to be our protectors. Biologically speaking we are made differently. Our brains are wired differently also. While i have plenty to offer my husband and children, i have limitations and these limitations i have are things desperately needed. So i really do believe i have to listen to my husband. i know this may annoy many "feminists" but i believe this really is how the world works. And if i try to go against this reality, i will cause too many problems to happen to me. so even though "it's not fair" i have to dress modestly and not expose myself. Even though "it's not fair" i have to make sure i don't draw unwanted attention to myself and act in a strong yet humble manner. It may not be fair, but if i chose a good and wise husband, he'll probably know how dirty men think and i'll need to listen to him. this is called honoring my husband. if i can't honor him in his presence and absence then i might as well end the marriage. so to me, a husband telling me what i should or shouldn't do is very normal. so i need to choose very wisely when i marry, so that i know that we have the same views of what is decent and what is not. for example, i doubt i would be able to obey a man who tells me to wear niqab for no reason in usa. so someone like that i wouldn't marry to begin with because i know i couldn't honor him the way i should.
if we submit to the way of the God, then the above issue of obeying your believing husband comes naturally.

so the problem is when a husband beats me for no reason. if that is the case, then i need to get away from such an abusive relationship. this is not condoned in any verse.

if he beats me because he's a wahabi and i'm not, chances are he's not my husband.

so i think that really settles the issue of nishooz. whether you call it ill-conduct or just not listening to your husband, its wrong according to the God's book.

Grammatically, i'm just not good enough in classical arabic to understand whether the word daraba means to strike or to separate. but i do know that if you want to say "to separate from them" you would have to use 3anhunna in the phrase. i still didn't really get a response about that from anyone who believes that the word daraba in 434 is not to strike.

Salam

jonny_k

Peace sister "BOOST",
Sister dont tell me you want your husband to beat you when you disobey him. This is not right at all. Even if hes a Quran Aloner he can always have views different than yours regarding the Quran as well. What if he believes you have rebelled against him then he warns you, but you say no, he seprates the bed, but you still believe what you think is right(and whilst men can understand certain things better than women so can women understand certain things better than men so tht aint to be an issue at all), so he starts beating you. Would you agree with that? Would that solve the problem? Would that make you become obedient to your husband(btw when the Quran mentions women to be obedient it means to GOD not to the husband, tht is another silly hadithist notion)? Dont give your husband the right to beat you. No woman should. Take this advice from a man and im not a feminist either.
I believe as Arnold does or at least did once and he brought me to that understanding which is idrbohunna means "to have sexual relations with her". Checkout "Ahmed Ali's" translation for this. Indeed this solves the issue first separate the beds for a while to stir up emotions and then come together making love. This clears all misundrstandings but never beating. GOD Bless!

phoenix1

You see, to me i really do believe that the God has made men to be our protectors

peace BOOST,

Men were not created after women. And I think you know that most men are NOT protectors of women. So I don't know why you really believe that.

The reason we have sexes is because of the way we reproduce. If we reproduced asexually, we would all be one sex.

And yes, men and women are different.

While i have plenty to offer my husband and children, i have limitations and these limitations i have are things desperately needed. So i really do believe i have to listen to my husband.

what limitations?
the only limitations you have are the ones you put on yourself. It is true that NORMALLY men and women are good at different things, and that at least should dictate their roles in society, but there is no reason you HAVE to listen to your husband. You are his partner, not his servant. Whatever decisions you make you make together. Obviously, there are some things your husband knows better than you do, so you take his advice because you trust him, not because he is your god given protector and you need to listen to him to survive.
But please give me an example of something you have limitations in?

i know this may annoy many "feminists" but i believe this really is how the world works. And if i try to go against this reality, i will cause too many problems to happen to me. so even though "it's not fair" i have to dress modestly and not expose myself. Even though "it's not fair" i have to make sure i don't draw unwanted attention to myself and act in a strong yet humble manner.

Believe me, I hate feminists, but I don't agree with you here.
The reason you are supposed to dress modestly is for your own good. We all know that. No one is forcing this on you that makes it "unfair." Your husband would not like it if you suddenly started dressing like a prostitute, because that was not the woman he married. If you always dressed like a whore, you never would've married your husband and he never would have married you.

t may not be fair, but if i chose a good and wise husband, he'll probably know how dirty men think and i'll need to listen to him. this is called honoring my husband. if i can't honor him in his presence and absence then i might as well end the marriage.

IF you chose a good and wise husband. But we all make mistakes. What if you chose a bad husband? do you still "honor" him? NO.
Again, the reason you should listen to your husband is because you trust him. Not because you HAVE to listen to your husband no matter how big of an asshole he is.

so i think that really settles the issue of nishooz. whether you call it ill-conduct or just not listening to your husband, its wrong according to the God's book.

So wait, when your husband does something you don't like, you end the marriage. So why does your husband have to beat you when you do something wrong?
If my female parnter does something I don't like, and keeps don't it, I will get away from her. I will not beat an adult in hopes of changing them. I do not view women as servants of men, I view them as fellow human beings. If I beat my wife, she might obey me from then on, but only because she is afraid of me. I do not want that kind of a relationship.
The fact is that the permission to beat your wives is very easy to abuse. Every SOB will beat his wife because she forgot sugar in his coffee or something like that. How can you not see that?
Marriage is like friendship.
When your friend betrays you, you don't beat them, you leave them. If your friend does something against the law, then it is up to the authority to deal with him.

jonny_k

Peace,
Heres a clip showing the absurdity how hislamic men interpret "adriboohun"
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nUI3TUdFCk
GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "phoenix"

I will not beat an adult in hopes of changing them.

JK- The use of the word "adult" above gives the connottation that its ok to beat children which i hope you wldnt agree with becuase i dont. Infact my mentality is "a MAN may beat another adult MAN if theyve been proven to have done something very wrong BUT never a woman or a child". GOD Bless!

phoenix1

peace JK,
I don't believing in beating kids. The reason I said "adult" was because I was trying to say that adults don't change that easily. You can successfully change a kid's behavior, but with adults it's near impossible I think. So if you don't like the adult you are living with, the best thing to do is to seperate from them.

unknownuser

PEace Bro Johnny

Honoring my husband does not mean that I have no opinions of my own. Or that i practice no autonomy. Why does it have to be black and white? Where are the shades of grey? My husband, if he follows quran, will not opress me. He will not enforce his opinions on everything and I just listen and obey. This is not honoring anybody this is called slavery.

Honoring my husband entails listening to him if he tells me to do something or not to do something that would be detrimental to my safety, or our marriage, or something that goes against the teachings of al quran, or our children. He can't just tell me you eat only chicken from now on and then i must listen and obey. This is silly. I don't know what Muslim quran-obeying man would beat his wife because they disagree on a translation of a verse in the quran. This is called discussion.

This is one thing i don't understand about certain people. They make things so extreme just to prove a point and it becomes like a circus act. If we read the verse 434 it would be clear that we must accept this arrangement from the God that we as women must honor our husbands in their presense and absence.

believe as Arnold does or at least did once and he brought me to that understanding which is idrbohunna means "to have sexual relations with her". Checkout "Ahmed Ali's" translation for this. Indeed this solves the issue first separate the beds for a while to stir up emotions and then come together making love. This clears all misundrstandings but never beating. GOD Bless!

so now we have another translation? Stop having sex with them for awhile and then start again? According to you that stirs up emotions? Nice try but unless you give me proof that this is the meaning of daraba, i can't just believe you.

unknownuser

PEace bro Johnny

I never heard of "hislamic" before. Is that a made-up word from someone who used to post at free-minds? Let's stick to english, not "Danish"-language.

unknownuser

PEace Bro Phoenix

Men were not created after women.

What does this have to do with anything?

And I think you know that most men are NOT protectors of women.

My husband would be my protector, yes. What were you thinking of?

what limitations?
the only limitations you have are the ones you put on yourself.

do you live in this world?

It is true that NORMALLY men and women are good at different things, and that at least should dictate their roles in society, but there is no reason you HAVE to listen to your husband. You are his partner, not his servant.

Again you, like bro johnny, go for either 100% or 0%. If you haven't noticed, nothing in life is like that. It's not that if i listen to my husband then i automatically become his servent. Do you listen to your parents? Are you their servent? Do you listen to your manager at work? Are you his servent? Do you obey laws? Are you a slave to your country? Do you play sports and follow rules? are you a servent to your coach or referree? I rest my case.

Whatever decisions you make you make together. Obviously, there are some things your husband knows better than you do, so you take his advice because you trust him, not because he is your god given protector and you need to listen to him to survive.

Obviously there ARE some things my husband would know better than me so i listen to him. Who talked about surviving or dying? Who talked about having my husband as my god? Again, why do you go to extremes?

But please give me an example of something you have limitations in?

Easy, i'm a petite girl that could easily be physically over-powered. My husband (i would hope) would be stronger than me.

Believe me, I hate feminists, but I don't agree with you here.
The reason you are supposed to dress modestly is for your own good. We all know that. No one is forcing this on you that makes it "unfair."

I know it is for my own good. but many feminists say that is "unfair" why don't men just behave, etc etc. If you read my post carefully i said we must go by what reality is and not what we think is "fair and unfair" as feminists claim.

Your husband would not like it if you suddenly started dressing like a prostitute, because that was not the woman he married. If you always dressed like a whore, you never would've married your husband and he never would have married you.

oh so hypothetically speaking since i'm not a whore and don't dress like one either, if i started to dress like a prostitute and my husband tells me don't go out like that, do i listen to him or no? and if i do, does that make me his slave?

IF you chose a good and wise husband. But we all make mistakes. What if you chose a bad husband? do you still "honor" him? NO.
Again, the reason you should listen to your husband is because you trust him. Not because you HAVE to listen to your husband no matter how big of an asshole he is.

Well, i guess you didn't really read my post then. Because i specifically said it is very important to choose wisely and make sure we agree on basics. I also said if a person was just abusive i'd have to just leave him. And if he was wahabi and wanted me to be one too, i wouldn't marry him to begin with. So, yes i HAVE to listen to my husband. But my husband would have to be a believer or else he WOULDN'T be my husband. If i can't honor him like he needs to be honored, then i must leave him. Better than staying in a relationship where we will both disrespect and disgrace each other.

So wait, when your husband does something you don't like, you end the marriage. So why does your husband have to beat you when you do something wrong?
If my female parnter does something I don't like, and keeps don't it, I will get away from her. I will not beat an adult in hopes of changing them. I do not view women as servants of men, I view them as fellow human beings. If I beat my wife, she might obey me from then on, but only because she is afraid of me. I do not want that kind of a relationship.
The fact is that the permission to beat your wives is very easy to abuse. Every SOB will beat his wife because she forgot sugar in his coffee or something like that. How can you not see that?
Marriage is like friendship.
When your friend betrays you, you don't beat them, you leave them. If your friend does something against the law, then it is up to the authority to deal with him.

You don't have to beat anyone. It's not mandatory. And it's not for a woman who forgot sugar in your coffee. And its not for a man who would beat his wife if she forgot sugar in his coffee.

phoenix1

peace BOOST )

What does this have to do with anything?

it has to do with the idea that men are protectors of women. Men were not created after women so they can't possibly be made for that purpose.

My husband would be my protector, yes. What were you thinking of?

OK. I thought you said all men are protectors of women.

do you live in this world?

Do you know that there was a girl with one hand who became the faster typer in the world? There are very few things in this world that are impossible. People put limits on themselves (like "i'm a woman so i cannot protect myself&quot, which aren't necessarily there.

Again you, like bro johnny, go for either 100% or 0%. If you haven't noticed, nothing in life is like that. It's not that if i listen to my husband then i automatically become his servent. Do you listen to your parents? Are you their servent? Do you listen to your manager at work? Are you his servent? Do you obey laws? Are you a slave to your country? Do you play sports and follow rules? are you a servent to your coach or referree? I rest my case.

Your comparison of a husband with a referee is exactly what I have a problem with.
But maybe I should've asked questions first just to be sure of your thoughts on this.
So, why does the husband make rules? if he doesn't, then I suppose both agree to a certain set of rules?
There is nothing wrong with obeying your husband, but you should NOT obey him just because he is your husband. But either because you trust him to make a right decision about something or you aren't obeying him at all you are just following the rules you both agreed to. Agree?

Obviously there ARE some things my husband would know better than me so i listen to him. Who talked about surviving or dying? Who talked about having my husband as my god? Again, why do you go to extremes?

I didn't say your husband is your God. I said your husband is not your god given protector. That has to do with my above point.

Easy, i'm a petite girl that could easily be physically over-powered. My husband (i would hope) would be stronger than me.

OK.
See, what's annoys me is when women say that men are "protectors of women" so women have this natural need to obey men because whatever men do is best for them. I hope you agree that that's not the case.

oh so hypothetically speaking since i'm not a whore and don't dress like one either, if i started to dress like a prostitute and my husband tells me don't go out like that, do i listen to him or no? and if i do, does that make me his slave?

Whores and prostitutes are making this too complicated (you'd think they'd do the opposite).
My point was that you and your husband got married because you had similar views on things. Niether of you has any right to get upset or force your partner to change unless they do something that wasn't part of the plan.
If I married a whore, and she turns out to be this really modest, pious person, I'd be pissed, wouldn't I? I have every right to break the relationship.
Both spouses set the rules, and both should follow them. Niether has authority over the other. Correct?

Well, i guess you didn't really read my post then. Because i specifically said it is very important to choose wisely and make sure we agree on basics. I also said if a person was just abusive i'd have to just leave him. And if he was wahabi and wanted me to be one too, i wouldn't marry him to begin with. So, yes i HAVE to listen to my husband. But my husband would have to be a believer or else he WOULDN'T be my husband. If i can't honor him like he needs to be honored, then i must leave him. Better than staying in a relationship where we will both disrespect and disgrace each other.

You said that we should choose wisely.
But isn't it true that no matter how careful we are with something, we are bound to make a few mistakes? and aren't there dishonest people who don't show their true colors until after you've vowed to spend the rest of your life with thm?
If your husband was abusive, you leave him. But then why does your husband have to beat you when you are abusive?
and FYI,
I think there's a myth that men are the stronger sex, and so women cannot abuse men. They can, and they do. Men are not always the abusers. The man is not always the superior partner. Right?

You don't have to beat anyone. It's not mandatory. And it's not for a woman who forgot sugar in your coffee. And its not for a man who would beat his wife if she forgot sugar in his coffee

But it's still bad advice. Beating your friend, your wife, your husband, your child, doesn't amount to anything.
And I'm telling you, that it is very easy to abuse this advice or command or whatever it is. Making bad coffee when your husband wanted good coffee is disobeying him, isn't it?

unknownuser

PEace Bro Phoenix
What does this have to do with anything?
My husband would be my protector, yes. What were you thinking of?
do you live in this world?
Again you, like bro johnny, go for either 100% or 0%. If you haven't noticed, nothing in life is like that. It's not that if i listen to my husband then i automatically become his servent. Do you listen to your parents? Are you their servent? Do you listen to your manager at work? Are you his servent? Do you obey laws? Are you a slave to your country? Do you play sports and follow rules? are you a servent to your coach or referree? I rest my case.

Obviously there ARE some things my husband would know better than me so i listen to him. Who talked about surviving or dying? Who talked about having my husband as my god? Again, why do you go to extremes?
Easy, i'm a petite girl that could easily be physically over-powered. My husband (i would hope) would be stronger than me.
I know it is for my own good. but many feminists say that is "unfair" why don't men just behave, etc etc. If you read my post carefully i said we must go by what reality is and not what we think is "fair and unfair" as feminists claim.

oh so hypothetically speaking since i'm not a whore and don't dress like one either, if i started to dress like a prostitute and my husband tells me don't go out like that, do i listen to him or no? and if i do, does that make me his slave?
Well, i guess you didn't really read my post then. Because i specifically said it is very important to choose wisely and make sure we agree on basics. I also said if a person was just abusive i'd have to just leave him. And if he was wahabi and wanted me to be one too, i wouldn't marry him to begin with. So, yes i HAVE to listen to my husband. But my husband would have to be a believer or else he WOULDN'T be my husband. If i can't honor him like he needs to be honored, then i must leave him. Better than staying in a relationship where we will both disrespect and disgrace each other.

You don't have to beat anyone. It's not mandatory. And it's not for a woman who forgot sugar in your coffee. And its not for a man who would beat his wife if she forgot sugar in his coffee.

That was one hell fo a reply dear sister rotfl rotfl rotfl

I bet many mens can't come up with a reply as you did

Take care

unknownuser

See dear sister

many think excusting Saddam is unfair, indeed even my wife think the same and I had a huge argument with her yesterday in regards to how dare she defends a tyrant who killed zillions

unknownuser

peace BOOST it has to do with the idea that men are protectors of women. Men were not created after women so they can't possibly be made for that purpose.OK.

you just shot yourself in the foot really, you said that men can't be protectors to women because they were not created after the women, based on your statement, then

Because men were created before women (Adam was created before his partner) then men are protectors of women

Thanks for the laugh Walid, you just made a joke of yourself

Salam

phoenix1

peace Ahmed,

I didn't say men were created before women. They were created (or should I say evolved) at the same time.
Your very welcome, Ahmed.
FYI, spell my name like this "waleed" if you don't mind (that's how I spell it). For a second I thought you were replying to someone else.

unknownuser

peace bro phoenix

i think you should just drop the who was created before who argument because it really has no bearing on the topic at all. nobody said man's sole purpose in life is to protect women so this is all irrelevent. oh and i'd suggest you ex-nay on the whole prostitute thing. insert foot in mouth.

it seems to me you keep reading too much into my posts. you need to talk to me and not at me. i'm a very strong young woman by the way. just because i will serve honor and respect my husband like the majority of the world does with the exception of a few lesbian feminists, does not make me this weak pathetic creature like you imagine.

marriage is not a friendship. my husband is not my buddy living with me. We each have responsibilities that we must carry out. 434 clearly states that women must be obedient to their husbands. Elhamdulillah i am a Submitter and i will continue to submit to the God and not be so arrogant as to think that I know better than the One who Created little tiny me.

i think the major issue here is you go by what YOU think is right. you fit the quran to your liking and whatever doesn't fit you make it fit by choosing something that makes more sense to you. Or you throw it away altogether. but we as submitters can't pick and choose verses my brother. You mentioned before on this thread that you think your logic is infallible. your subjective, faulty logic becomes higher than the God like that. and when i say "you" i mean everybody. Nobody in this world is perfect. you logic is part and parcel of you. as a submitter, you need to mold yourself to fit the quran's standards - even if it doesn't currently make sense to you.

Let me give you an example. In the u.s. having your grown kids stay with you till they marry and pay for everything even if they have a job would be considered archaic, bad parenting and completely illogical behavior. In Egypt, having your 18 yr old daughter pay for college or find a job and definitely move out of the family home, would be considered completely irrational pig-headed heartless behavior. See how subjective "logic" is? What is rational to you may be totally irrational to me. That's why we must lean on our Creator to guide us.

Anyways, best wishes to you and everyone here for the New Year! D

unknownuser

Peace bro Ahmed,

Happy Happy New Year to you and your family!

I want to thank you for opening my eyes, brother. I'm beginning to question alot of things i just took for granted, maybe because i just wanted to believe they were true. I didn't want to believe that the God would give my future husband the right to beat me. But now because of the knowledge you gave me, I realized this verse isn't even talking about me, insha-Allah. This is the major problem all of these brothers on this thread still have. They still believe it condones domestic violence, which is what the enemies of islam want us to believe. So our reaction is to run away from the verse. Try to find a new meaning while we know none fit. Call it "separate from" when there is no word "from" there. Or call it have "make up sex" even though there is no basis for such a translation. Or just say it's illogical and get rid of the verse altogether. But this is not what Islam is. As you say, it's not a feel good, new-age religion. We need to understand all the words of the verse first before we even talk about the word adrabahunna. What happened to the word that describes the believing women as qanatat hafezat (obedient, protecting the marriage)? We skip over that and jump to adrabahunna and then we don't understand why a woman must obey her believing husband to begin with...!! That's a problem.

and what the heck is a "progressive muslim" anyway?

phoenix1

i think you should just drop the who was created before who argument because it really has no bearing on the topic at all. nobody said man's sole purpose in life is to protect women so this is all irrelevent. oh and i'd suggest you ex-nay on the whole prostitute thing. insert foot in mouth.

peace BOOST, I do not know what "ex-nay" means. But I agree with you on the who was created first argument.

it seems to me you keep reading too much into my posts. you need to talk to me and not at me. i'm a very strong young woman by the way. just because i will serve honor and respect my husband like the majority of the world does with the exception of a few lesbian feminists, does not make me this weak pathetic creature like you imagine.[/quote

I do not imagine you as a weak pathetic creature at all. I know I was reading into your posts. And that's why in my second post addressed to you I asked you whether you agreed or not to certain statements so that I know what your statement is.
It's not what you actually believe that matters here (on this thread), but what it sounds like you believe. And believe me that it seems you are implying that women are weak pathetic creatures. I was just making sure that you don't actually think that.
You should honor and respect your husband.
I just want to know WHY you want to honor and obey your husband (beside the fact that the quran says so).

marriage is not a friendship. my husband is not my buddy living with me. We each have responsibilities that we must carry out. 434 clearly states that women must be obedient to their husbands. Elhamdulillah i am a Submitter and i will continue to submit to the God and not be so arrogant as to think that I know better than the One who Created little tiny me.

Marriage is very much like friendship. The only exception is that you both are supporting eachother and your children rather than supporting yourselves individually.
But the rest of the rules are pretty much the same. If you want your friend to like you, you "obey" them.

i think the major issue here is you go by what YOU think is right. you fit the quran to your liking and whatever doesn't fit you make it fit by choosing something that makes more sense to you. Or you throw it away altogether. but we as submitters can't pick and choose verses my brother. You mentioned before on this thread that you think your logic is infallible. your subjective, faulty logic becomes higher than the God like that. and when i say "you" i mean everybody. Nobody in this world is perfect. you logic is part and parcel of you. as a submitter, you need to mold yourself to fit the quran's standards - even if it doesn't currently make sense to you.

I tend to base what I think is right on what I have observed (empirical evidence). And if the quran doesn't fit that, then it cannot be right.
I cannot ignore what I have observed and try to mold my understanding according to the quran. That is blind faith.
I know I am not perfect, but I cannot assume that the quran is.
And why are we even talking about what I think is right?
The simple fact is that beating another person does not accomplish anything. What the quran is giving us is at best bad advice.

Let me give you an example. In the u.s. having your grown kids stay with you till they marry and pay for everything even if they have a job would be considered archaic, bad parenting and completely illogical behavior. In Egypt, having your 18 yr old daughter pay for college or find a job and definitely move out of the family home, would be considered completely irrational pig-headed heartless behavior. See how subjective "logic" is? What is rational to you may be totally irrational to me. That's why we must lean on our Creator to guide us.

OK. But that has nothing to do with what I was trying to get accross. You may think living with your parents is fine, I might not. But one of us has to be right. Or at least there needs to be a right answer. The truth. We need to find that. In this case, I think that both ways work fine. But in some cases both ways don't, or neither does. And we need to find out which way is the right way to do things. And we don't do that by looking it up in a book. We do that by observing what happens when we or someone else makes a choice.
If I have found that beating people is not good, then no amount of verses will change that. What will change that is if someone can show me that beating their women does work.
Our creator is not in a book (and who knows what the heck the books is actually saying). The signs of our creator are in this reality. We need to know what the reality is, and base our choices on that. And if the Quran does not fit the actual reality, the best conclusion is that the Quran is wrong.

About the marriage thing, I think we're both saying the same thing two different ways. I may be wrong.
and have a happy new year.