The Sacred Temple and the Focal Point

rsw

Yes, you could be accused of - please forgive me - baseless metaphorical interpretation.

I have no argument with the rest of your post (I'm wrong lots; like I said "what do I know&quot and you are forgiven brother!, but now I feel like I need to reveal my "base" to you so you do not believe I am baselessly interpreting anything lol ). Now, if you mean "You have no base for interpreting metaphorically" then you are absolutely right -- Nowhere (that I know of) are we told to interpret anything metaphorically. However, if you mean "You have no basis for saying Hajj and Masjid are concerning principles of morality" then I have a perspective I would like to share with you

I know that the Qu'ran is a guide (4144) and that the purpose of our lives is to test which of us is best in conduct (672). I also know that I am told to seek refuge from the Satan when I read the Qu'ran (169 because he is lying in wait for me on the straight path (716). I know that the straight path is avoiding immorality (6153) and that immorality is defined in the Qu'ran (6151-152) as well as the previous scriptures (4630).

So when I come to a concept in the Qu'ran which I do not understand, say, for example, Pilgrimmage, I think to myself "I know the Qu'ran is guide for the straight path, so what I don't understand in it is likely to be about that subject." I know that the Satan is lying in wait for me, and that his tactic is most likely going to be obscuring the straight path so that I might remain ignorant and deviate from it. So I have two good reasons for saying "This thing that I dont know about is probably related to conduct." Any interpretation about an important part of the religion that is not about holding fast to 6151-152 could possibly be from the Satan, and could also be out-of-character for the Book we are reading.

Keeping that in mind, I increase my knowledge using the rootlist

Haa-Jiim-Jiim

to intend to a certain target, aim at, repair, undertake, repaired/betook himself to or towards a person / place / object of veneration/respect/honour, went/visit frequently/repeatedly, PILGRIMAGE. Overcome another by/in argument/evidences/proofs/testimonies, plead, contend/argue/dispute. Refrain/abstain.

and begin looking at each definition in the context of each verse. If it seems to be related to the straight path I settle on that as an interpretation until I a better idea comes to me. I understand that I am not working with the Arabic Qu'ran nor a perfect understanding of God's message, but I am trying to do the best I can with what I have available. So... baseless? not completely. But nearly.

Let's look at the first occurance of the word "Pilgrimage"

2158 The Safa and Marwah are amongst the symbols of God. So whosoever makes Pilgrimage to the Dwelling, or is merely passing through, commits no error that he should traverse within them. And whoever donates for goodness, then God is Appreciative, Knowledgeable.

This is going to be a bad example because I have no idea what "safa and marwah" are, but the tradition is that they are statues of godesses? I don't know! But the word pilgrimage occurs here, in relation to the word "Dwelling". It seems important, I consult rootlist

Ba-Ya-Ta
by/in/at night (excluding sleep), entered upon or passed the night tent, house, home Thinking about something and its end result Concealed or conceived something in the mind A structure of clay or any structure signifying a habitation, an abode or DWELLING. Buildings, uninhabited houses, shops, ruins, bazaars, places where the entering is allowed by the owners. Ark of Noah, Mosques, places of worship, Kaabeh or Jerusalem A grave Household or family Nobility Sudden attack in the night or a surprise attack in the night Remaining through the night (e.g. bread or water that stays out and becomes stale)

So whoever makes the to the would be my interpretation. I interpret it in the context of the straight path and decide Hajj is a period of meditation on our behavior in effort to make an improvement in it so that God will have more favor on us and will be less likely to devote us to the Hellfire. Another verse seems to support that

2197 The Pilgrimage months are made known. So whosoever decides to perform the Pilgrimage therein, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O people of understanding.

Here we are told that Pilgrimage is a period of time that occurs during multiple months (or full moons, lol, i dont know!) in a year, and that it is something we decide to do voluntarily during these months. During that period there is to be no sex, vileness, or baseless argument. Those three things seem to be things that would cause us to lose focus on our goal of meditating on our right, right? I assume we are to abstain (Sawm) from them. Also, it says to bring provisions so the place where we do the Pilgrimage is likely to be somewhere that has no provisions (desert, mountains, wilderness, somewhere away from civilization), and that the best provision is righteousness! and that we are to be aware of God! So now I am even more firmly rested in my belief.

The tradition of the life of Muhammad supports this also, he would frequently go out to mountains and bring provisions with him and meditate. Two more verses on pilgrimage

2189 They ask you regarding the crescent moons, say ?They are a timing mechanism for the people as well as for the Pilgrimage.? And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whoever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.

Now we know that crescent moons are a timing mechanism for the pilgrimage. The exact timing is for a different, more intense debate, but we are also told in this verse that piety is whoever is righteous and comes to the homes from their main doors... And to be aware of God! I don't know what the "doors" thing means, it seems to be one of the statements that only God probably knows the meaning to, so I don't know if I should interpret it. But... i bet it has something to do with the straight path!

OK, one more left

2196 And complete the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then make what is affordable of donation, and do not shave your heads until the donation reaches its destination; but whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a rite. But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation; but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose family is not present at the Sacred Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.

During this Pilgrimage we are to make an affordable donation, there is to be the shaving of heads for those who make a donation, and those who do not want to shave their head may fast or give a charity (how is this different from donation? donno) instead. The period for fasting is specified 3 days during the Pilgrimage and seven after. This is for those whose families are not at the "masjid al-haram" (which I interpret as "acknowledgement of the forbidden&quot but this is another subject entirely. But Be Aware of God! Because if you warrant Hellfire at the end of your life He is severe in retribution! )

In summary My conclusion on this topic that I had not researched before is that Pilgrimage is a retreat for those who can find the means to make a retreat (397). The purpose of this retreat is to remove ourselves from our routine lifestyle so that we can meditate on our behavior and evaluate ourselves in order to make an improvement in our conduct. This retreat is to be conducting at certain times as determined by the crescent moons and is to be accompanies by abstainence from sex, argument, and vileness. One should donate and shave their head during this retreat, and fast 10 days if you have no donation. And above all to be aware of God during this retreat, as that is the point of it )

Anyway, I hope now you understand why I interpret "pilgrimage" is not a ritual visit to Mecca to rotate around a block and kiss a stone (I think that is Satan's interpretation trying to obscure the real meaning from us so that we stray), but most likely has something to do with the quality of our character and how to improve it. Baseless? almost. Thanks for reading, peace!

Supernaut

Oh my! Very cool! Your approach is entirely Quranic and so elegant in its simplicity. However, I have some reservations (though I don't know why) about your interpretation (which clearly isn't baseless) of Hajj and Umrah and will therefore accept it only when I think I can't find a good argument against it.

Supernaut

= Sad-Fa-Waw = it became clear/limpid/pure (often said of a drink), opposite of Kaf-Dal-Ra, free from turbidness/thickness/muddiness, free from admixture, became cloudless (said of air/atmosphere, but also said of love/life/mind/heart), clear/pure/best/choice/favoured part/potion, clear/clarify, true/sincere, distinguish particularly/specially, select/elect/prefer, serenity of life, comfort, reciprocal sincerity/purity.
take the best of, to choose in preference to, grant to another a preference in the choice of anything.
abound with milk (said of a she-camel/ewe/goat/sheep), palm-tree heavy with fruit,
reached stone (said of a digger).
the portion of the spoil, which the chief/commander chooses for himself before the division.
become destitute/devoid.
stone, smooth stone/rock, stone that doesn't give growth to anything, hard broad stone, a certain place in Mekkeh.

safa - n. 2158
safwan - n.m. 2264

saffa vb. (II) - 4715

asfa vb. (IV) - 1740, 4316

istafa vb. (VIII) - perf. act. 2130, 2132, 2247, 333, 342, 7144, 2759, 3532, 37153, 394, impf. act. 2275, pcple. pass. 3847.

LL, V4, p 427, 428

Source http//www.studyquran.co.uk/18_SAD.htm

= Miim-Ra-Waw = flint stones, white fragile stone where a cooking fire is started, the stone on which an animal is slaughtered.
The eminence in the immediate vicinity of Ka'bah, a mountain near Mecca called Marwah.

marwah n. 2158

Source http//www.studyquran.co.uk/14_MIIM.htm

Could it be that Marwah (a fragile white stone, possibly chalk) and Safa (a hard stone, possibly granite) are allegories? Yuksel seems to think so. Here's how Yuksel, Layth and Schulte-Nafeh translated 2158

2158 The serenity and chivalry are amongst God's emblems. Therefore, whosoever makes Pilgrimage to the sanctuary, or is merely passing through, commits no error by oscillating between them. Whoever volunteers for goodness; indeed God is Appreciative, Knowledgeable.

For Muslims, Hajj and Umrah (whatever they may be) have religious significance, but not for non-Muslims. Shabbir Ahmed thinks that Hajj and Umrah are supposed to be conferences for Muslims and non-Muslims, so perhaps Muslims are those who "make Hajj to the Bayt" while non-Muslims are "those who are merely passing through" and 2158 is saying that it's okay if both oscillate between emotions that can be symbolized by granite and emotions that can be symbolized by chalk.

rsw

Ahhh... I was going to try understanding 2158 but sorry! I just don't know enough Arabic to be confident about my ability; I became extremely confused trying to find certain words in the Arabic to the point of giving up on it /. I did find that the word that appears as "emblems" or "symbols" can also mean "ordinances", so whatever Safa and Marwah are, they probably have something to do with that (you know I try to keep the Straight Path in mind). Whatever they are, I feel doubtful about "oscilating" between them, but I could not find the word they translated to "oscilate" in the Arabic to save my life. Also, at the end of the verse is a clue I think "whoever volunteers for goodness." The meaning of Safa and Marwah probably have something to do with a goodness that can be volunteered for. In that context I would choose one of the other definitons for safa, either "become destitute/deviod" or "grant another preference in the choice of anything."

= Shiin-Ayn-Ra = to know/perceive/understand, to acquaint, perceive by senses.
make verses, remark, poetry, poet, verse, art of poetry, feeling, knowledge.
Sirius, which was worshipped by the Arabs in Pagan times.
mark/marker/signs/rites/symbols/observances/ceremonies/practices, the obligatory ordinances/statutes of God.
a place where a thing is known to be.
measure of length.
sheep/goat.
hair, innermost garment.
trees.
a sign of people in war and in a journey, a call or cry by means of which to know another, banner.
mash'ar al-Haram - holy mosque in Muadhalifah (a place which lies between Makkah and Arafat, six miles from Kabah). The name Mash'ar al-Haram is a compound of Mash'ar meaning the place of perception or knowledge and Haram meaning sacred. Ash'ara to make anyone understand, make known to.

Whatever we choose for the definiton we have to consider Are these ordinances/rites/symbols/emblems of God? Can we "oscilate" (whatever the Arabic for this is) between them? Is there a good that we can be volunteered for in one of them? Stuff to consider.

Take this with a grain of salt, but Google's translation tool figured Safa and Marwah as "fidelity" and "flexibility."

Supernaut

Ahhh... I was going to try understanding 2158 but sorry! I just don't know enough Arabic to be confident about my ability; I became extremely confused trying to find certain words in the Arabic to the point of giving up on it /. I did find that the word that appears as "emblems" or "symbols" can also mean "ordinances", so whatever Safa and Marwah are, they probably have something to do with that (you know I try to keep the Straight Path in mind). Whatever they are, I feel doubtful about "oscilating" between them, but I could not find the word they translated to "oscilate" in the Arabic to save my life.

I can't find it either. I'll ask someone who knows Arabic to help us out.

Also, at the end of the verse is a clue I think "whoever volunteers for goodness." The meaning of Safa and Marwah probably have something to do with a goodness that can be volunteered for. In that context I would choose one of the other definitons for safa, either "become destitute/deviod" or "grant another preference in the choice of anything."

I think the verse says you can volunteer to do extra good things in addition to oscillating or whatever the word means between Safa and Marwah.

Samia

Salaam rsw

I really can't believe that you have this understanding of the quraan which you came to know just after Katarina! Really the message is very clear and easy to understand! This shows the deep effect of years of brainwashing in our (my at least) case.
I strongly agree with you in your linking the hajj/bait to the straight path. bravo

Are these ordinances/rites/symbols/emblems of God? Can we "oscilate" (whatever the Arabic for this is) between them?

The underlined phrase is a wrong translation of the Arabic preposition "bi with". This leads to the wrong translation of "yatouf" to mean oscilate between. Verse 5544 which has this meaning uses the verb "between bainahuma" for the verb "yatouf", which is not the case here. This verb is used in other verses with the preposition bi to mean "move around carrying something"
3745; 4371; 7615
We also have "yatoufuu bil baitil 3ateeq" 2229
So, safa and marwa may have something to do with the straight path? Feeding the poor (taking safa as "abound with milk (said of a she-camel/ewe/goat/sheep), palm-tree heavy with fruit" and marwa "white fragile stone where a cooking fire is started&quot and distributing them (yattawwaf /yatuuf bihima)?

Supernaut

The underlined phrase is a wrong translation of the Arabic preposition "bi with". This leads to the wrong translation of "yatouf" to mean oscilate between. Verse 5544 which has this meaning uses the verb "between bainahuma" for the verb "yatouf", which is not the case here. This verb is used in other verses with the preposition bi to mean "move around carrying something"
3745; 4371; 7615
We also have "yatoufuu bil baitil 3ateeq" 2229
So, safa and marwa may have something to do with the straight path? Feeding the poor (taking safa as "abound with milk (said of a she-camel/ewe/goat/sheep), palm-tree heavy with fruit" and marwa "white fragile stone where a cooking fire is started&quot and distributing them (yattawwaf /yatuuf bihima)?

I went through an older thread where you and Ayman discussed Hajj with other members, and understanding Safa and Marwa as taking animals full of milk and taking lots of fruit to a cooking stone is consistent with the understanding of Hajj as a feast. I have a question could it be that we're allowed to accept donations from "Those who are merely passing through" or feed them? I think so.

Samia

I think "feast" is part of hajj, but there's also the study/teaching/exrcising of the straight path (debate/discussion/study). Maybe it is just the host and the dwellers of the place who offer the food; passers by may donate. The main thing is that food is free and all people are invited for this event (faman hajjal baita awi3 tamar fala junaa7 3alihi ay yat-tawwafa bihima, wa man tataw-wa3a khairan fa-innal laaha shaakirun 3aleem and whoever is giving the haj/debate/feast or the dwellers, here is no harm that they distribute the (food), and whoever donates good, God is rewarding, acknowledging it)n

Wakas

peace rsw, all,

If unsure about a word, try using the word for word translation online. It can be found at www.studyquran.org

Specifically
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/Quran_ArabicEnglish_WordforWord_Translation.htm

Unfortunately, the above has not been indexed by verse and since chapter 2 is huge, it might take a while to find the word. The word is "yattawwafa", whose root is Tay-Waw-Fa.

As a side note, the transaltion you are using of 2158 is likely to be significantly misleading, including the free-minds translation, as there is no "hajj TO the/al house/bayt". The Quran never says this.

Wakas

I forgot to add you cannot just extract a root meaning from PRL and put it in the verse and that's it. PRL shows the occurrences for a reason, and that reason is cross-referencing. See
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/Qwrmic.htm

Supernaut

Peace Wakas,

Thank you for the links.

I think a Focal Point may also be a physical location because of what 1087 says

And We inspired to Moses and his brother ?Let your people leave their homes in Egypt, and let these homes be your focal point, and hold the communion. And give good news to the believers.?

If Qiblah simply meant "The direction of the straight path", God wouldn't have told Moses and Aaron to leave it, much less right before telling them to follow it because that would create a really big contradiction.

Samia

Salaam Supernaut

I see that this is a proof that the focal point is not a physical meaning, otherwise they would be asked to make the whole of Egypt, or at least some towns where their homes are, their focal point. I think it means to make it something they always think about, not to forget it, to thrive to return back to it.

Supernaut

Salaam Samia

I see that this is a proof that the focal point is not a physical meaning, otherwise they would be asked to make the whole of Egypt, or at least some towns where their homes are, their focal point. I think it means to make it something they always think about, not to forget it, to thrive to return back to it.

So are you saying that a Qiblah may also be something that you should think about? I'll look up all the meanings of Qiblah.

Supernaut

Qaf-Ba-Lam = to accept/admit/receive/agree, meet anyone, to face/encounter someone/something, advance/approach, correspond, counteract/compare/requite/compensate, the front part (1226), accept with approval, show favour.
qablu - before/formerly,
qubulun - the fore-part, face to face, before, plural of qabilum,
qibalun - power, side, part,
qiblah - towards, in the direction of, facing, alongside,
qiblatun - anything before, opposite, the point in the direction of which prayer is performed, the Ka'bah at Makkah, a place of worship,
qabulun - favourable reception, gracious acceptance,
qabilun - tribe, host, plural qabilatun,
qabailun - tribe,
aqbala - to come near, draw near, approach, turn towards, rush upon,
taqabbala - to accept,
mutaqabilun - opposite to, facing one another,
mustaqbilun - proceeding towards, heading towards.

qabila vb. (1)
impf. act. 9104, 244, 4225
impf. pass. 248, 2123, 385, 390, 391, 954
n.vb. 337
pcple. act. 403

qabil n.f. (pl. qaba'il) 727, 4913

qabil n.m. 1792

qibal n.m. or preposition. 2177, 2737, 5713, 7036

qiblah n.f. 2142, 2143, 2144, 2145, 2145, 2145, 1087

qubul n.m. 6111, 1226, 1855

aqbala vb. (4)
perf. act. 1271, 1282, 3727, 3750, 3794, 5129, 5225, 6830
impv. 2831

taqabbala vb. (5)
perf. act. 337
impf. act. 527, 4616
impv. 2127, 335, 1440
perf. pass. 527, 536
impf. pass. 527, 953

taqabala vb. (6) pcple. act. 1547, 3744, 4453, 5616

istaqbala vb. (10) pcple. act. 4624

LL, V8, p 237, 238

I don't find any meaning that suggests Qiblah can mean "Something you shouldn't forget".

ayman

Peace Samia,

I think "feast" is part of hajj, but there's also the study/teaching/exrcising of the straight path (debate/discussion/study). Maybe it is just the host and the dwellers of the place who offer the food; passers by may donate. The main thing is that food is free and all people are invited for this event (faman hajjal baita awi3 tamar fala junaa7 3alihi ay yat-tawwafa bihima, wa man tataw-wa3a khairan fa-innal laaha shaakirun 3aleem and whoever is giving the haj/debate/feast or the dwellers, here is no harm that they distribute the (food), and whoever donates good, God is rewarding, acknowledging it)n

Thank you for sharing your excellent understanding of "yattawwafa bihima". It makes perfect sense in light of the meaning of "hagg" as "feast".

As for debate/discussion/study, there is nothing that precludes those from happening at any time. However, I don't think that those are part of the purposes of the "hagg". The purposes are clearly listed as

Witness benefits.
Remember the god for what he provided for them from the livestock.
Eat and feed the hungry.

All those purposes clearly have to do with the feast and have nothing to do a debate.

I think that the debate/discussion/study would come indirectly as people come to a place where no partners are set with the god (2226) and they would experience first hand a model community that doesn't set any partners with the god, which is the standing of Abraham.

Peace,

Ayman

rsw

peace rsw, all,

If unsure about a word, try using the word for word translation online. It can be found at www.studyquran.org

Specifically
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/Quran_ArabicEnglish_WordforWord_Translation.htm

Unfortunately, the above has not been indexed by verse and since chapter 2 is huge, it might take a while to find the word. The word is "yattawwafa", whose root is Tay-Waw-Fa.

As a side note, the transaltion you are using of 2158 is likely to be significantly misleading, including the free-minds translation, as there is no "hajj TO the/al house/bayt". The Quran never says this.

peace,
yeah, I was searching through there and since I didn't have hours to search through surah 2 (i get on the internet at the library, which closes at night) I just gave up.

I forgot to add you cannot just extract a root meaning from PRL and put it in the verse and that's it. PRL shows the occurrences for a reason, and that reason is cross-referencing. See
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/Qwrmic.htm

haha, thanks bro, but I know not to just "make up" a meaning for a word without checking other occurences of the word/concept I'm talking about. I went through the most detailed verses I could find in my second post in this thread, and while there were other ones I thought the ones I had discussed were enough for the moment (as I do have other stuff to do) and that if the other ones contradicted my idea someone here would be quick enough to let me know. The point of discussions is for people to share ideas, right, for people to come in and reply to what others said with a reason why they agree or don't? I never claimed my word was gospel and I think I pretty much constantly state that I have a very vague understanding about what I am talking about . As for a 'preconcieved bias,' I went into that post thinking about hajj as "transition from worldly life to righteousness," and I came out of it with a completely different interpretation based on what I had learned. I don't have any agenda with the Qu'ran... it's GOD's words, not mine to define and interpret however I want! Don't have such a low opinion of me already!

And We inspired to Moses and his brother ?Let your people leave their homes in Egypt, and let these homes be your focal point, and hold the communion. And give good news to the believers.?

If Qiblah simply meant "The direction of the straight path", God wouldn't have told Moses and Aaron to leave it, much less right before telling them to follow it because that would create a really big contradiction.

What do you think about 2114 then? It says "Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord" implying that the focal point is something that has been previously described. I think it is probably the straight path because that has been described in each of the previous scriptures torah(exodus 20)/psalms(15)/gospel(matthew 1916-19)/quran(6151-153), it makes sense that those who have been given the previous scripture would know that those laws are the truth. What do you think the focal point is, keeping this in mind that it is probably detailed in the previous scriptures?

Samia

I don't find any meaning that suggests Qiblah can mean "Something you shouldn't forget".

Salaam

Think of the expression "to keep an eye on something".

Supernaut

Salaam,

Think of the expression "to keep an eye on something".

Forgive me, but you're being vague. Was God telling the Israelites to keep an eye on their homes in Egypt? Also, there are other verses that seem to indicate that the Qiblah is a physical location, rather than just a spiritual one

2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the Sacred Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.? Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.

anthonywallace

Salaam,

Forgive me, but you're being vague. Was God telling the Israelites to keep an eye on their homes in Egypt? Also, there are other verses that seem to indicate that the Qiblah is a physical location, rather than just a spiritual one

2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the Sacred Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.? Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.

We are being instructed to turn that way. When we go out, that is were we should be going.

werever we at, we should turn in that direction.

when we pray face that direction...

Towrds the Sacred Temple is the focus.

ect...

liquiddharma

Ah, I think I get it now. The sacred temple is our private parts. The commandment to pilgrimage is the commandment to marry.