The Sacred Temple and the Focal Point

rsw

Ahhh... I was going to try understanding 2158 but sorry! I just don't know enough Arabic to be confident about my ability; I became extremely confused trying to find certain words in the Arabic to the point of giving up on it /. I did find that the word that appears as "emblems" or "symbols" can also mean "ordinances", so whatever Safa and Marwah are, they probably have something to do with that (you know I try to keep the Straight Path in mind). Whatever they are, I feel doubtful about "oscilating" between them, but I could not find the word they translated to "oscilate" in the Arabic to save my life. Also, at the end of the verse is a clue I think "whoever volunteers for goodness." The meaning of Safa and Marwah probably have something to do with a goodness that can be volunteered for. In that context I would choose one of the other definitons for safa, either "become destitute/deviod" or "grant another preference in the choice of anything."

= Shiin-Ayn-Ra = to know/perceive/understand, to acquaint, perceive by senses.
make verses, remark, poetry, poet, verse, art of poetry, feeling, knowledge.
Sirius, which was worshipped by the Arabs in Pagan times.
mark/marker/signs/rites/symbols/observances/ceremonies/practices, the obligatory ordinances/statutes of God.
a place where a thing is known to be.
measure of length.
sheep/goat.
hair, innermost garment.
trees.
a sign of people in war and in a journey, a call or cry by means of which to know another, banner.
mash'ar al-Haram - holy mosque in Muadhalifah (a place which lies between Makkah and Arafat, six miles from Kabah). The name Mash'ar al-Haram is a compound of Mash'ar meaning the place of perception or knowledge and Haram meaning sacred. Ash'ara to make anyone understand, make known to.

Whatever we choose for the definiton we have to consider Are these ordinances/rites/symbols/emblems of God? Can we "oscilate" (whatever the Arabic for this is) between them? Is there a good that we can be volunteered for in one of them? Stuff to consider.

Take this with a grain of salt, but Google's translation tool figured Safa and Marwah as "fidelity" and "flexibility."

Supernaut

Ahhh... I was going to try understanding 2158 but sorry! I just don't know enough Arabic to be confident about my ability; I became extremely confused trying to find certain words in the Arabic to the point of giving up on it /. I did find that the word that appears as "emblems" or "symbols" can also mean "ordinances", so whatever Safa and Marwah are, they probably have something to do with that (you know I try to keep the Straight Path in mind). Whatever they are, I feel doubtful about "oscilating" between them, but I could not find the word they translated to "oscilate" in the Arabic to save my life.

I can't find it either. I'll ask someone who knows Arabic to help us out.

Also, at the end of the verse is a clue I think "whoever volunteers for goodness." The meaning of Safa and Marwah probably have something to do with a goodness that can be volunteered for. In that context I would choose one of the other definitons for safa, either "become destitute/deviod" or "grant another preference in the choice of anything."

I think the verse says you can volunteer to do extra good things in addition to oscillating or whatever the word means between Safa and Marwah.

Samia

Salaam rsw

I really can't believe that you have this understanding of the quraan which you came to know just after Katarina! Really the message is very clear and easy to understand! This shows the deep effect of years of brainwashing in our (my at least) case.
I strongly agree with you in your linking the hajj/bait to the straight path. bravo

Are these ordinances/rites/symbols/emblems of God? Can we "oscilate" (whatever the Arabic for this is) between them?

The underlined phrase is a wrong translation of the Arabic preposition "bi with". This leads to the wrong translation of "yatouf" to mean oscilate between. Verse 5544 which has this meaning uses the verb "between bainahuma" for the verb "yatouf", which is not the case here. This verb is used in other verses with the preposition bi to mean "move around carrying something"
3745; 4371; 7615
We also have "yatoufuu bil baitil 3ateeq" 2229
So, safa and marwa may have something to do with the straight path? Feeding the poor (taking safa as "abound with milk (said of a she-camel/ewe/goat/sheep), palm-tree heavy with fruit" and marwa "white fragile stone where a cooking fire is started&quot and distributing them (yattawwaf /yatuuf bihima)?

Supernaut

The underlined phrase is a wrong translation of the Arabic preposition "bi with". This leads to the wrong translation of "yatouf" to mean oscilate between. Verse 5544 which has this meaning uses the verb "between bainahuma" for the verb "yatouf", which is not the case here. This verb is used in other verses with the preposition bi to mean "move around carrying something"
3745; 4371; 7615
We also have "yatoufuu bil baitil 3ateeq" 2229
So, safa and marwa may have something to do with the straight path? Feeding the poor (taking safa as "abound with milk (said of a she-camel/ewe/goat/sheep), palm-tree heavy with fruit" and marwa "white fragile stone where a cooking fire is started&quot and distributing them (yattawwaf /yatuuf bihima)?

I went through an older thread where you and Ayman discussed Hajj with other members, and understanding Safa and Marwa as taking animals full of milk and taking lots of fruit to a cooking stone is consistent with the understanding of Hajj as a feast. I have a question could it be that we're allowed to accept donations from "Those who are merely passing through" or feed them? I think so.

Samia

I think "feast" is part of hajj, but there's also the study/teaching/exrcising of the straight path (debate/discussion/study). Maybe it is just the host and the dwellers of the place who offer the food; passers by may donate. The main thing is that food is free and all people are invited for this event (faman hajjal baita awi3 tamar fala junaa7 3alihi ay yat-tawwafa bihima, wa man tataw-wa3a khairan fa-innal laaha shaakirun 3aleem and whoever is giving the haj/debate/feast or the dwellers, here is no harm that they distribute the (food), and whoever donates good, God is rewarding, acknowledging it)n

Wakas

peace rsw, all,

If unsure about a word, try using the word for word translation online. It can be found at www.studyquran.org

Specifically
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/Quran_ArabicEnglish_WordforWord_Translation.htm

Unfortunately, the above has not been indexed by verse and since chapter 2 is huge, it might take a while to find the word. The word is "yattawwafa", whose root is Tay-Waw-Fa.

As a side note, the transaltion you are using of 2158 is likely to be significantly misleading, including the free-minds translation, as there is no "hajj TO the/al house/bayt". The Quran never says this.

Wakas

I forgot to add you cannot just extract a root meaning from PRL and put it in the verse and that's it. PRL shows the occurrences for a reason, and that reason is cross-referencing. See
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/Qwrmic.htm

Supernaut

Peace Wakas,

Thank you for the links.

I think a Focal Point may also be a physical location because of what 1087 says

And We inspired to Moses and his brother ?Let your people leave their homes in Egypt, and let these homes be your focal point, and hold the communion. And give good news to the believers.?

If Qiblah simply meant "The direction of the straight path", God wouldn't have told Moses and Aaron to leave it, much less right before telling them to follow it because that would create a really big contradiction.

Samia

Salaam Supernaut

I see that this is a proof that the focal point is not a physical meaning, otherwise they would be asked to make the whole of Egypt, or at least some towns where their homes are, their focal point. I think it means to make it something they always think about, not to forget it, to thrive to return back to it.

Supernaut

Salaam Samia

I see that this is a proof that the focal point is not a physical meaning, otherwise they would be asked to make the whole of Egypt, or at least some towns where their homes are, their focal point. I think it means to make it something they always think about, not to forget it, to thrive to return back to it.

So are you saying that a Qiblah may also be something that you should think about? I'll look up all the meanings of Qiblah.

Supernaut

Qaf-Ba-Lam = to accept/admit/receive/agree, meet anyone, to face/encounter someone/something, advance/approach, correspond, counteract/compare/requite/compensate, the front part (1226), accept with approval, show favour.
qablu - before/formerly,
qubulun - the fore-part, face to face, before, plural of qabilum,
qibalun - power, side, part,
qiblah - towards, in the direction of, facing, alongside,
qiblatun - anything before, opposite, the point in the direction of which prayer is performed, the Ka'bah at Makkah, a place of worship,
qabulun - favourable reception, gracious acceptance,
qabilun - tribe, host, plural qabilatun,
qabailun - tribe,
aqbala - to come near, draw near, approach, turn towards, rush upon,
taqabbala - to accept,
mutaqabilun - opposite to, facing one another,
mustaqbilun - proceeding towards, heading towards.

qabila vb. (1)
impf. act. 9104, 244, 4225
impf. pass. 248, 2123, 385, 390, 391, 954
n.vb. 337
pcple. act. 403

qabil n.f. (pl. qaba'il) 727, 4913

qabil n.m. 1792

qibal n.m. or preposition. 2177, 2737, 5713, 7036

qiblah n.f. 2142, 2143, 2144, 2145, 2145, 2145, 1087

qubul n.m. 6111, 1226, 1855

aqbala vb. (4)
perf. act. 1271, 1282, 3727, 3750, 3794, 5129, 5225, 6830
impv. 2831

taqabbala vb. (5)
perf. act. 337
impf. act. 527, 4616
impv. 2127, 335, 1440
perf. pass. 527, 536
impf. pass. 527, 953

taqabala vb. (6) pcple. act. 1547, 3744, 4453, 5616

istaqbala vb. (10) pcple. act. 4624

LL, V8, p 237, 238

I don't find any meaning that suggests Qiblah can mean "Something you shouldn't forget".

ayman

Peace Samia,

I think "feast" is part of hajj, but there's also the study/teaching/exrcising of the straight path (debate/discussion/study). Maybe it is just the host and the dwellers of the place who offer the food; passers by may donate. The main thing is that food is free and all people are invited for this event (faman hajjal baita awi3 tamar fala junaa7 3alihi ay yat-tawwafa bihima, wa man tataw-wa3a khairan fa-innal laaha shaakirun 3aleem and whoever is giving the haj/debate/feast or the dwellers, here is no harm that they distribute the (food), and whoever donates good, God is rewarding, acknowledging it)n

Thank you for sharing your excellent understanding of "yattawwafa bihima". It makes perfect sense in light of the meaning of "hagg" as "feast".

As for debate/discussion/study, there is nothing that precludes those from happening at any time. However, I don't think that those are part of the purposes of the "hagg". The purposes are clearly listed as

Witness benefits.
Remember the god for what he provided for them from the livestock.
Eat and feed the hungry.

All those purposes clearly have to do with the feast and have nothing to do a debate.

I think that the debate/discussion/study would come indirectly as people come to a place where no partners are set with the god (2226) and they would experience first hand a model community that doesn't set any partners with the god, which is the standing of Abraham.

Peace,

Ayman

rsw

peace rsw, all,

If unsure about a word, try using the word for word translation online. It can be found at www.studyquran.org

Specifically
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/Quran_ArabicEnglish_WordforWord_Translation.htm

Unfortunately, the above has not been indexed by verse and since chapter 2 is huge, it might take a while to find the word. The word is "yattawwafa", whose root is Tay-Waw-Fa.

As a side note, the transaltion you are using of 2158 is likely to be significantly misleading, including the free-minds translation, as there is no "hajj TO the/al house/bayt". The Quran never says this.

peace,
yeah, I was searching through there and since I didn't have hours to search through surah 2 (i get on the internet at the library, which closes at night) I just gave up.

I forgot to add you cannot just extract a root meaning from PRL and put it in the verse and that's it. PRL shows the occurrences for a reason, and that reason is cross-referencing. See
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/Qwrmic.htm

haha, thanks bro, but I know not to just "make up" a meaning for a word without checking other occurences of the word/concept I'm talking about. I went through the most detailed verses I could find in my second post in this thread, and while there were other ones I thought the ones I had discussed were enough for the moment (as I do have other stuff to do) and that if the other ones contradicted my idea someone here would be quick enough to let me know. The point of discussions is for people to share ideas, right, for people to come in and reply to what others said with a reason why they agree or don't? I never claimed my word was gospel and I think I pretty much constantly state that I have a very vague understanding about what I am talking about . As for a 'preconcieved bias,' I went into that post thinking about hajj as "transition from worldly life to righteousness," and I came out of it with a completely different interpretation based on what I had learned. I don't have any agenda with the Qu'ran... it's GOD's words, not mine to define and interpret however I want! Don't have such a low opinion of me already!

And We inspired to Moses and his brother ?Let your people leave their homes in Egypt, and let these homes be your focal point, and hold the communion. And give good news to the believers.?

If Qiblah simply meant "The direction of the straight path", God wouldn't have told Moses and Aaron to leave it, much less right before telling them to follow it because that would create a really big contradiction.

What do you think about 2114 then? It says "Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord" implying that the focal point is something that has been previously described. I think it is probably the straight path because that has been described in each of the previous scriptures torah(exodus 20)/psalms(15)/gospel(matthew 1916-19)/quran(6151-153), it makes sense that those who have been given the previous scripture would know that those laws are the truth. What do you think the focal point is, keeping this in mind that it is probably detailed in the previous scriptures?

Samia

I don't find any meaning that suggests Qiblah can mean "Something you shouldn't forget".

Salaam

Think of the expression "to keep an eye on something".

Supernaut

Salaam,

Think of the expression "to keep an eye on something".

Forgive me, but you're being vague. Was God telling the Israelites to keep an eye on their homes in Egypt? Also, there are other verses that seem to indicate that the Qiblah is a physical location, rather than just a spiritual one

2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the Sacred Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.? Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.

anthonywallace

Salaam,

Forgive me, but you're being vague. Was God telling the Israelites to keep an eye on their homes in Egypt? Also, there are other verses that seem to indicate that the Qiblah is a physical location, rather than just a spiritual one

2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the Sacred Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.? Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.

We are being instructed to turn that way. When we go out, that is were we should be going.

werever we at, we should turn in that direction.

when we pray face that direction...

Towrds the Sacred Temple is the focus.

ect...

liquiddharma

Ah, I think I get it now. The sacred temple is our private parts. The commandment to pilgrimage is the commandment to marry.

anthonywallace

Ah, I think I get it now. The sacred temple is our private parts. The commandment to pilgrimage is the commandment to marry.

stop it.

lali

Peace all,

Apologies as I'm normally just a lurker on this forum but as I read the posts today, something really struck me that hasn't before in the countless discussions on hajj in this forum. I will post a link at the bottom which funnily enough I read today, which after reading these posts has finally after much trying opened my eyes to what the concept of hajj could be about.

Focusing on the following ideas and concepts - the feast, believers volunteering to feed the hungry and 'those passing through' - meaning curious passers by? those looking for a free meal? - all bring up a vivid picture of a sense of community. I think maybe its been touched on that the hajj, the gathering of people for this marked occasion, is for all people not just those who are doing it for spiritual/religious reasons?

If you click on the link it might be worthwhile to keep these concepts in mind and see how the concept of hajj could be practised by us who consider ourselves on the straight path. I like that there are parallels of the richer members of the community donating to the langar and helping to sustain it even though they might not physically be volunteering ('making pilgrimage&#039

http//www.worldchanging.com/archives/006211.html

Sorry, no backing up from the quran's verses as I feel you guys have already done a brilliant job to open up the discussion on what a pilgrimage might constitute.

Hopefully, next step for us? Based on our collective understandings (we are requested to follow from the best of it?) maybe we can all join up once a year in our regions to make pilgrimages which purify us through the acts of service we offer to those on pilgrimage and those passing through, rather than feeling lost about what the key to pilgrimage as described in the book is. This way we don't sit on our hands, we do good in the hope that we are following on the straight path. And what could be straighter than what is described in the article and in the posts above?

Peace and look forward to your thoughts!

liquiddharma

stop it.

But think about all the domes and minarets of Islamic architecture. They're clearly fertility symbols, phallus's and breasts. The meaning of it is that the soul must be creative.

http//www.abhuk.com/images/kaaba.jpg http//farm3.static.flickr.com/2161/2025296727_6275e061fa.jpg?v=0