My answers to Ayman's Alligations
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Peace All
Ayman thinks my way of fasting and timing is wrong; the following is my answer to his alligation that was posted in http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.new;topicseen#new)
(I had to post it in a saperate thread so people can focus in finding the truth, and not get mixed up by the many posts in the other thread)
The traditional timing
We all know the traditional timing so I am not going to waste time on explaining it. Also, everyone who has read the great reading knows that the traditional point of view has zero support in the great reading and this is what has prompted many people here to search for a better one based on the great reading. Basically, the traditional timing has the following problems
- The traditional timing
We all know the traditional timing so I am not going to waste time on explaining it. Also, everyone who has read the great reading knows that the traditional point of view has zero support in the great reading and this is what has prompted many people here to search for a better one based on the great reading.
OK...Lets examine your allegation
Basically, the traditional timing has the following problems
- Assumption that ?ramadan" is meaningless
It assumes that the word ?ramadan? in 2185 is meaningless and thus that the god could have said ?bla bla bla?, as long as it came after the month named Shaaban, which brings us to the next point.
My assumption is based on Quran.
I assume that Rammadn is a Name.
I assume that Rammadan does not mean Hot simply because God Used other word (HAR) For Hot and never used Rammadan. Therefore My Assumption is supported by Quran, and your assumption that Rammadan means Hot is based on Dictionary and condridicts the Quran.- The traditional timing is 100% arbitrary
In reality, the only thing that the sectarian Ramadan is based on is when Shaaban occurred and this in turns depends on when Rajab occurred and so on.
So if one follows this back, one can see that in fact Ramadan is dependent on when the new era was made to start. Many people mistakenly believe that Islamic Calendar starts with the alleged date of migration of the prophet. However, even this arbitrary start is false since Muharram was selected as the start of the era and not the supposed date of migration of the prophet.
What is your Proof from Quran that Moharm was not the Month of Migration?
Is your proof based on conjecture ? as you know Conjecture leads to Fetna?The Prophet and the Believers will always Fast the Month that the Quran first was revealed. Such Month will fall within the 12 months (12 Moons) of the year. Either such month was the Moon Cycle numer 1 of the year or 2 or 3 or 4...or any other number, the prophet and his people will know.
Please understand that the anniversary is calculated by 12 month period and not by the weather Condition. And in our Islamic case, the anniversary of Rammadan Month is every 12 Moon Cycles.
It is an indisputable fact that had the new era been made to start according to a different marker such as the date of first revelation or the date of birth of the prophet or the date of the final victory of the prophet, etc. then people here who happily embrace the traditional timing would have been fasting in an entirely different month. So for example, had the beginning of the new era been set to 3 years earlier then they would be fasting in what was Shaaban a month earlier. In addition to the beginning of the era, the order of the months in this new era is completely arbitrary. So what sectarians are doing right now is essentially fasting a completely random month and this is a fact that only the most ignorant and dogmatic would dispute.
You See! You keep building and growing your Theory on nothing; if your assumption are not supported by Quran, then your assumptions are Conjectures.
Please do not start a Hypothieses and try to prove it using unreliable nor Valid Data. And in the case of Religion, you know where to Find the Reliable and Valid Data.- The traditional timing ignores the fact that the year is certainly solar in the great reading
According to 1712, daylight and night are used to determine the number of years. Since day and night are a function of the sun and not the moon, then the year is certainly solar or luni-solar.
..Then, We have obliterated the sign of the night (with darkness) while We have made the sign of the day illuminating, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the reckoning...(17-12)
Ayman 1712 is related to the Quran; thus it should confirm and support the other verses that says to Use the Moon Stages to calculate the Years, and not cancel the following verse out
It is He Who made the sun a shining thing and the moon as a light and measured out for it stages, that you might know the number of years and the reckoning. All?h did not create this but in truth. He explains the Ay?t (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail for people who have knowledge. (10-5)
Now, the Sun Cycle is to calculate the day period, and the Moon Cycle to Calculate the Month Period; please let me know if we can use the Sun and the Moon differently.
- The traditional timing violates 936
By assuming that the word ?shahr? means a lunar month and given the fact that the year is solar as shown in (3), the traditionalists actually count 12.3 months in a year and not exactly twelve.
Verily, the number of months with All?h is twelve months, so was it ordained by All?h on the Day when He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are Sacred, ...(9-36)
You see, you are creating a thoery that is based on unQuranic proof.
As I showed you from Quran that the Month period is based on Moon Cycle, how can the Year that has 12 Shaher (moon Cycles) will be Solar.
YOU HAVE TO USE THE SUN AND MOON TO CALCULATE THE YEAR.
If you choose to leave the Moon out of the pictuer, then you are disbelieving Quranic Verses.- The traditional timing creates a contradiction between 2185 and 971
On the one hand, traditionalists claim that according to 2185 the great reading was descended in a month while 971 clearly says that it was descended in one night. This false understanding creates a contradiction in the great reading.
Again, you are adding words to the translation of Quran.
2-185 says that the Month of Rammadan is when God revealed the Quran. Did you see any arabic word that refers to that the Entire Quran was revealed only in Rammadan Month; NO. NO. NO.971 does not say the Quran at all brickwall
Verily, We have sent it down (Descended it) in the night of Al-Qadr(1) And what will make you know what the night of Al-Qadr is? (2) The night of Al-Qadr is better than a thousand months (3) Therein descend the angels and the R?h by All?h's Permission with all Decrees, (4) there is Peace until the appearance of dawn (97-5)
And that is what God told us about what He Descends in the Night of Qadr.
But if you add and say that the Quran was revealed in on night, then you will have to cancel out all the Verses that show otherwise.- The traditional timing creates a contradiction between 2185 and 2184
Traditionalists claim that according to 2185 the abstinence is for a month while 2184 is clearly saying ?a few days?. Some try to make up excuses by making up a new meaning for ?ma3doodat? as ?any number?. So now they create another problem by implying that the god is giving superfluous useless information. This false understanding also creates another problem further down in 2185 when the passage mentions ?completing the count?. If the count is already known as ?30 days? or ?29 days? then both ?any number? and ?completing the count? become useless and unnecessary information.
2-184 is clearly saying "Counted Days" and not "Few Days". Stick to the Meaning of the word "M3doodat" as counted and not Few.
Completing the Count is to Complete the days that are falling within the period of the Moon Cycle., which can be 29 or 30 days.
These are just 6 problems with the traditional understanding and I am sure that there are more but I already wasted enough time stating what should be obvious to everyone but unfortunately isn?t as evident by all the confusion.
You created these problems by using uneducated translation of Quran, and relying on unquranic proofs.
I hope I was clear enough in explaining my position.
Peace all
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Thank You
Salaam everyone,
Everyone can see from the post on ?Hot/"ramadan" Answer? that, no matter how many evidence are produced from the Qur?an, those who want to promote their agenda simply try and sweep the proof under the rug. They are playing politics and now it has simply become a case of my way or the highway.
Anwar has eloquently covered lots of details and has explained very well MaAAdoodatin in relation to the month of Ramadan.
I don?t understand the fuss about the literal meaning of the word ramdan, which means intense/extreme heat. Taking this literal meaning gives us a clue about the timing that weather was very hot, in prophet Mohammed?s city during this very first event.
By fasting we commemorate the revelation of the Quran in Leylat Al Qadr so this should be a universal event. The message of the Quran was revealed for the benefit of the world and when the Quran descended, due to the position of the sun in respective countries, it was hot in the Northern hemisphere but cold in its southern counterpart where Leylat Al Qadr was a wintry night. Insisting that the Southern hemisphere should abandon their event to follow conditions in Arabia we are making it a local event, not a universal event.
Now let?s look at 1712
We have made the NIGHT and the Day as two (of Our) Signs the Sign of the NIGHT have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years all things have We explained in detail
What I understand from the verse above is that, for the number and count of years, we need to take into account both signs, the night and the day a luni-solar cycle but as we count our months by the lunar cycle the event will be remembered as the one when it was hot in Arabia, a clue for the rest of the world to work out what was the weather in their respective countries.
The same conditions are repeated every 29/30 years when the moon and the sun are in a similar position. As, every year, the month of fasting moves ten days, due to the lunar year, every place in the whole world is exchanging time of year with others so that each and every month of fasting will have the night of power. If we were to limit it only to fasting in hot weather we would be making it a local Arab event and would be excluding the Southern hemisphere from the whole world and above all going against the evidence from the Qur?an 9812242 It is such that God clarifies to you His revelations that you may comprehend.
peace
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Doesn't Night of Decree in summer contradict this article which I thought was very convincing? Is there any reconciliation or can we conclusively prove one or the other wrong?
It can be concluded from the above information that the time of the Winter Solstice is indeed the blessed night of decree that the Qur?an refers to. This would mean than not only was Jesus conceived on that night, but also that the Qur?an and the Torah and all other major decrees were sent down in that same night respectively apart.
This night is not only a blessed night in itself, but it also would bless the period around it explaining why the fast has been commanded to occur in the month of Ramadhan in which the Night of Decree is contained.
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The article is based on a theory that the night of decree is the "longest night" without giving evidence that it really was the longest night, or that the longer the night the more blessed. I do not think the qur'aan described it as a "long night", but a "blessed night" and better than "a thousand annunciations/declarations" (another meaning for shahr, still in use).
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The article is based on a theory that the night of decree is the "longest night" without giving evidence that it really was the longest night, or that the longer the night the more blessed. I do not think the qur'aan described it as a "long night", but a "blessed night"
Peace,
Good evaluation.
Now' why cann't you evaluate Ayman's "Longest day" as you did with Layth?Thanks
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I Understood that Rammadan Month starts after we witness the Scorching Full Moon of the Solistic Summer Day (Longest Day of year) (June 21).
Is that what he is saying?
Salaam Belalhammad,
No you're wrong brother!!! Its not "we", it's he and his followers who witness the Scorching Full Moon of the Solistic Summer Day and start fasting and the rest of his followers in a mock celebration of the month starts hail hail around the globe like domino cards falling with the movement of the Sun. laugh
However his calculations could come handy if we calculte "sana(t)" not "3am", as there was no calender so two modes could be followed for seperate purposes. Please, if you go through my latest post on HOT/Ramadan thread, I would appreciate your view on that, even if in this thread.
peace
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Salaam Belalhammad,
No you're wrong brother!!! Its not "we", it's he and his followers who witness the Scorching Full Moon of the Solistic Summer Day and start fasting and the rest of his followers in a mock celebration of the month starts hail hail around the globe like domino cards falling with the movement of the Sun. laugh
However his calculations could come handy if we calculte "sana(t)" not "3am", as there was no calender so two modes could be followed for seperate purposes. Please, if you go through my latest post on HOT/Ramadan thread, I would appreciate your view on that, even if in this thread.
peace
hmm Is mocking others allowed in Islam confused then may be I?m not a Muslimyes
'( '( -
hmm Is mocking others allowed in Islam confused then may be I?m not a Muslimyes
'( '(This is not mocking but reality, about how the Scorching Full Moon of the Solistic Summer Day theory, in relation to the night of power/fasting, would work.
Those who are mocking my deen need warning. elektro
peace -
Salaam Belalhammad,
No you're wrong brother!!! Its not "we", it's he and his followers who witness the Scorching Full Moon of the Solistic Summer Day and start fasting and the rest of his followers in a mock celebration of the month starts hail hail around the globe like domino cards falling with the movement of the Sun. laugh
Peace;
Yes it is He and his Followers. rotflHowever his calculations could come handy if we calculte "sana(t)" not "3am", as there was no calender so two modes could be followed for seperate purposes. Please, if you go through my latest post on HOT/Ramadan thread, I would appreciate your view on that, even if in this thread.
peaceI read it, but I will need some time to think about it. Your conclusion is very interesting and, if true, will help us in discovering new meanings for some Quranic verses.
Try to have a new thread where people can involve in debating your Idea; otherwise, it will be Lost.
Peace -
The article is based on a theory that the night of decree is the "longest night" without giving evidence that it really was the longest night, or that the longer the night the more blessed. I do not think the qur'aan described it as a "long night", but a "blessed night" and better than "a thousand annunciations/declarations" (another meaning for shahr, still in use).
Peace,
I wasn't thinking so much about the solstice stuff as I was about the date-palms giving away the time of birth, and the time of birth then giving away the time of conception (as being in the winter sometime) along with the general season of the night of decree (as that is when the "angels and the Spirit" "carry out every matter". I agree the idea that the night of decree is the longest night is a leap, but I have been pretty well convinced that the night of decree is sometime in the winter; the idea of it being in the summer is completely opposite. Can you give me a better explanation of the timing of the conception of Jesus (involving an angel and a decree of God in 345-47) that doesn't contradict a summertime night of decree? -
Peace,
I guess this is the thread for those who are pissed off about the word manipulation and untruths of the idea that shahr only means full moon in the Quran and that Ramadan is the orange full moon around the Summer solstice. I can't say I 100% agree with Farida and Belal's calculations and analysis of the issue, but I do see straight through the manipulation and falsehood of the above opinion. I do believe that ramadan mean instense/constant heat. But I also believe in all of the vocalizations of the Quran and that ramadaana= ramadaanan. And whereas I don't believe in a unified Ramadan for the Northern and southern hemisphere (I believe that ramadan means summer, that of the Northern Hemisphere and that of the souther which occure a differen times for each hemisphere) I do believe that shahr in the Quranic context = 30 sunrise to sunrise days and that we are to fast for 30 sunrise to sunrise days during our summers. But the manipulation of manipulators never ceases to amaze me. And that it comes from Arabs is worse, although I expect it from Arabs who don't have higher education in Classical Arabic. Recently while searching on line I came accross a Sudani who ate pork. He said khinzir just meant dirty and sayed that lahmul-khinzeeri meant dirty meat!!!! He based it on a common Sudani (and possibly more widespread) saying. Anaa araa khinzeeri ( I look piggish, i.e. dirty). It is wrong to say araa for ashbihu in Classical Arabic, but he is using Sudani dialect (which resembles classical Arabic but is not) to justify his totally twisted meaning of khinzir and his complete grammatical ignorance.
And not suprisingly he called himself a Qurany. This kind of stuff disgusts me. It seems that ignoramuses (seems to be more Arab ignorames out there doing things like this) try to interpret Arabic not knowing its rules and not bothering to study them. And they change meanings of words based on what they want them to mean. ramida for red is a classical case and is not better than salaat as 'the method.' Ignorant people produce ignorant conjectures like these. Soon enough these same people will be redefining the words marriage, they will take the meaning of nikaah as sex over the meaning of marriage despite the many Quranic clues otherwise and they will be trying to reinterpret the Quran so they can do whatever they want. But the horrible thing is that they are trying to change and ignore Arabic meanings as well as ignoring the illogic and contradictions of their claims. I'd much rather they stay hadeethist and try to reinterpret the hadeeth (they'll never do that the Sunnis was literally kill them for touching their sacred hadeeth), but alas they pick on the Quran knowing that Sunnis don't know or care to much about it to go out put them back into the doctrinal majority.
All I can say is that this will be the great tragedy of the Quranist community and these reinterpretations and conjectures, despite contradictions of logic, of Quranic context and contradictions in general will stunt the growth of a respectable Quranic community for centuries if not forever. Unless this ceases and desists or Quranists get behind a sensible leader who makes good sense, sticks to logic, sticks to Quranic context and doesn't bring about new meanings of words without a logical, historical and Quranic basis. The fact of the matter is scorching will never equal the meaning 'red.' The Quran has us make up fasts by feeding individuals for the fasts missed. The Quran equates 2 months with 60 days this same way. And 29 Islamic days = 30 Quranic days. The other meaning is just taking Ramadan as a name. Which in my opinion is fine. But whereas 12 full moons only makes 11 lunar months and something on the order of 324 days which is not even close to a solar year, in a calender that used to be soli-lunar and is then only used as lunar by always counting 12 lunar periods and never adding 13 we will never be able to commemorate the true Ramadan of that time because Ramadan will always move. If you add 11 days after the last month to make it catch up, it will not usher in a new month but will leave you in the middle a lunar cycle and you can't start a lunar cycle in the middle of one. Now I guess you can do something like starting the first month on a waning crescent and then starting the next one on the next waxing crescent. That would add a few days. Exactly two periods of time from waning to waxing. But otherwise there will always be a problem.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
I do believe that ramadan mean instense/constant heat. But I also believe in all of the vocalizations of the Quran and that ramadaana= ramadaanan. And whereas I don't believe in a unified Ramadan for the Northern and southern hemisphere (I believe that ramadan means summer, that of the Northern Hemisphere and that of the souther which occure a differen times for each hemisphere) I do believe that shahr in the Quranic context = 30 sunrise to sunrise days and that we are to fast for 30 sunrise to sunrise days during our summers. .
Godbless,
AnwarSalaam Anwar
You have some valuable suggestions but for now I am just looking at your first paragraph and would like to say, first of all it?s nice of you to say it?s only your opinion; that is the kind of humbleness we need to further educate ourselves.
I never profess to have great knowledge of the Arabic language nor do I say that I have spent enough time understanding the Qur?an. I am in the process of learning. Everyone has their own way of connecting with God, my approach is first to see if it makes sense, is logical and every one can grasp it as the book is for us ordinary people and there is so much common sense in it..
Now to my common sense; this verse is referring to the very first event when the Qur?an was revealed for the benefit of the whole mankind. Therefore it was one universal event for the whole world. This initial event happened during a hot month in Arabia, that is the local weather of this event at the birth of the revelation, but for those in other parts of the world it was not hot; it was cold etc.
Take for example 9/11, it was a world event and was viewed live around t he globe. In New York it was an autumn day but in the other side of the world it was not the same season yet everyone remembers it as 9/1,1 as that is the name given to it, even in UK where it was first called September 11, but now it?s called 9/11 which has the become name of that event.
Almost everyone remembers when they first time saw or heard of a memorable event like the death of Princess Diana or 9/11 and, if we forget the date, we remember the atmosphere when we first heard about it. For example, when Princess Di died, I remember it was very late in summer holidays evening and we heard that she had been injured in an accident, whereas those in Australia would remember about the same news in winter and maybe daytime(I am not sure about the timing) So we cannot limit the death of Diana as a summer occurrence for everyone, she may have died in Paris but for those in southern hemisphere it was a winter time. What I am trying to say, using simple common sense, is that one cannot limit such a happening to a season.
In the Qur?an we have been given the knowledge that it was summer when the prophet Mohammed received the initial message. We are then asked to use the moon for marking the month and this is how this event is rotated around the world, so all can relate to it even though summer around the world is different.But the manipulation of manipulators never ceases to amaze me. And that it comes from Arabs is worse, although I expect it from Arabs who don't have higher education in Classical Arabic. Recently while searching on line I came accross a Sudani who ate pork. He said khinzir just meant dirty and sayed that lahmul-khinzeeri meant dirty meat!!!! He based it on a common Sudani (and possibly more widespread) saying. Anaa araa khinzeeri ( I look piggish, i.e. dirty). It is wrong to say araa for ashbihu in Classical Arabic, but he is using Sudani dialect (which resembles classical Arabic but is not) to justify his totally twisted meaning of khinzir and his complete grammatical ignorance
I hope many members, who put their trust in Arabic speakers would take note of this as, I too feel that Arabs somehow think they have a god-given authority to manipulate verses of the Qur?an simply because the Qur?an is in Arabic, a language native to them.
Then there are others who have taken 'Pharisees' as their gods and do not use their common sense at all. They end up asking the most ridiculous questions just for the sake of quizzing others.
i would remind them 399 Say "O ye People of the Book! Why obstruct ye those who believe, from the path of Allah, Seeking to make it crooked, while ye were yourselves witnesses (to Allah's Covenant)? but Allah is not unmindful of all that ye do."peace
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Recently while searching on line I came accross a Sudani who ate pork. He said khinzir just meant dirty and sayed that lahmul-khinzeeri meant dirty meat!!!! He based it on a common Sudani (and possibly more widespread) saying. Anaa araa khinzeeri ( I look piggish, i.e. dirty). It is wrong to say araa for ashbihu in Classical Arabic, but he is using Sudani dialect (which resembles classical Arabic but is not) to justify his totally twisted meaning of khinzir and his complete grammatical ignorance.
Salaam Anwar
If you really have knowledge of Sudanese colloquial, you wouldn't fall for such a funny, baseless story. I am not saying you made up this story, but for sure this person is fooling you. Just because someone writes online that he is Sudanese and this is what Sudanese say you believe him! Well, I am Sudanese, and I assure you that he is fooling you, and that we do not use in our colloquial the form of the verb "araa" in "anaa araa" AT ALL, to mean "I see", let alone to mean "I look". And no Arabic colloquial uses it to mean "I look". This is one, the second is that we do not use the word "khanzeer" to mean rotten, but "mukhanzir", which is a correct past participle derived from the classical verb "khanzara" which means to behave like a pig/khanzeer, in this case stinks, used for meat.
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Peace,
Thanks Farida and i see your point but I think the fast is symbolic an if God wants it generalized to a fast in the same sort of season that the Quran was revealed in, then i don't see too much hurt or incorrectness in that. I understand your analogy with an event in human history being on a specific date. But what if God chose the date by season in instead (a natural date, I guess) and told us to do it in that season. Again i don't see why that is so wrong or impossible. All in all I admit that there can be two possiblities. The one I propose, or a corrected luni-solar calendar, which would then have to be calibrated back to try make sure it's accurate with the pre-islamic one. Technically the pre-isalmic one would have moved 11 dasy back for about 3 years until the extra month was stuck in every 3 years. And even still it probably would account for the 3 day shift left over when everything was said and done. Again we all know there are problems with tihs lunar and even the luni-solar calendar. it either needs to be corrected (if that's possible keeping to the Qurani guidelines of only 12 months or we need to stop looking at Ramadan like a name and look at it as a concept. All in all this takes away some of the universality of the Quran (where anybody can pick it up without previous knowledge of specific cultural phenomena like this and still be able to study it and understand just with a knowledge of the concepts behind Arabic words and grammar). But in essence the Quan can be saying "We revealed this book during a month of summer (something universal to all of us albeit at different times in different places and to different degrees) so fast during a month of summer." (that is a paraphrase). And in such a case would that be so inappropriate?
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
Thanks Farida and i see your point but I think the fast is symbolic an if God wants it generalized to a fast in the same sort of season that the Quran was revealed in, then i don't see too much hurt or incorrectness in that. I understand your analogy with an event in human history being on a specific date. But what if God chose the date by season in instead (a natural date, I guess) and told us to do it in that season. Again i don't see why that is so wrong or impossible. All in all I admit that there can be two possiblities. The one I propose, or a corrected luni-solar calendar, which would then have to be calibrated back to try make sure it's accurate with the pre-islamic one. Technically the pre-isalmic one would have moved 11 dasy back for about 3 years until the extra month was stuck in every 3 years. And even still it probably would account for the 3 day shift left over when everything was said and done. Again we all know there are problems with tihs lunar and even the luni-solar calendar. it either needs to be corrected (if that's possible keeping to the Qurani guidelines of only 12 months or we need to stop looking at Ramadan like a name and look at it as a concept. All in all this takes away some of the universality of the Quran (where anybody can pick it up without previous knowledge of specific cultural phenomena like this and still be able to study it and understand just with a knowledge of the concepts behind Arabic words and grammar). But in essence the Quan can be saying "We revealed this book during a month of summer (something universal to all of us albeit at different times in different places and to different degrees) so fast during a month of summer." (that is a paraphrase). And in such a case would that be so inappropriate?
Godbless,
AnwarSalaam Anwar,
I believe my God is not unjust and all mankind are equal in His eyes. It?s only their deeds that separate them into the successful and the failures. I do not see how my God could sanction everyone alike to fast in extremely hot weather. ?Extreme? heat in London is the best time of year and a time to rejoice whereas extreme heat in India is dreaded time, is considered hellish , I do not see my God unfairly asking all to fast in Summer .
I see in your reply that you are driven by the desire to somehow solve the puzzle of the irregular counting of the months. I see that as a separate issue and, if we all put in a concerted effort towards calculating the real number of years that Noah lived we may end up with a solution to this puzzle. As you can see below there is no given calculation to the age of Noah, but we are left to work out the age of Noah, maybe there is a reason why its left vague2914 And We had sent Noah to his people, so he stayed with them one thousand less fifty years. Then the flood took them while they were wicked
Also Please check thisIn 31.14 it says ending of breastfeeding is (within two ?am?) It does not say two complete years (am) as is said in 46.15 two complete hawl.
