Rakat
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Peace, there are parts of there concepts of Rakat that are absolute proof. And there are some that is not supported by Quran, that I can find. ( Example I can only find that " two rakats" only exist in the quran, that I know. See below
The formal prayers consist of units. There are one and two unit prayers in the absolute proof category of prayer.
Proofs
4102 And if you are with them and you keep the prayers for them, then let a group ( unit 1 ) from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group ( unit two ) who has not yet prayed come and pray with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them.Each unit consists of the following essential component parts
- After making intention for prayer to say
"Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have a ally out of weakness."
Proofs
(17 110-111 And do not show-off with your prayers and do not overawe and hide with it; and form an intention between that. And say "Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." )- To pray to God.
For Example to say "My Lord, forgive and have mercy; and You are the most merciful.?
Proofs
(1082 Therefore, you shall pray to your Lord ??)- The posture of prostration
Proofs
( 4102 And if you are with them and you keep the prayers for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group who has not yet prayed come and pray with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them.This is my concept of rakat. There concept of rakat is
They claim that there are 4 rakats, 3 rakats, and 2 rakats.
Each of there rakats consist of
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After making intention for prayer to say " God is the greatest"
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The posture of standing during which the recitation of some verses is recited.
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To recite some verses from the Quran.
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The posture of bowing down / ruku
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The posture of prostrating
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The final sitting posture in the last rakat of any salat. They claim this sitting is absolute proof to the extent of the duration of Tashah-hud.
If any of these constituents are left out or not fulfilled, there salat is rendered null and void. There salat in such case must be performend again.
peace
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When I hear about the repetitions in prayer, and how strick the movements must be, I think of someone suffering from obsessive-compulsive disorder.
I don't see any connection between 4102, and "two rakats" either. It only makes sense, that one groups prays first, and then the other.
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???
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I think we are to adopt a style inbetween not showing- off with our prayers, and not overawing and hiding with it neither. But seek a way inbetween the that. 17110
The Jews have been known to be show-offs who love to stand and pray in the meeting places and on the street corners ( public), and Jesus taught that one should not be like them, but instead go in a room alone and pray in private ( overawing and hiding ). - Even thoe I think alot of the christians are showoffs too and they do not obey Jesus.
so i believe a pray a way inbetween.17110 If im understanding your question correct.
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Peace aw,
After making intention for prayer
Where in The Quran does God ask us to "make intention" for salat? Please give the relevant verse.
To pray to God
Where does God tell us in The Quran that "salat" is "to pray"? He uses the word "dua" for "prayer", not "salat".
Timed salaat of the muslimeen = connecting with God by reciting and reading from The Quran with understanding + remembering Him + glorifying Him + praising Him + praying to Him + seeking forgiveness from Him + repenting from our sins + being humble (ruku) + being obedient to God (sujud) + persisting in His way (qiyam). This can be done in standing, kneeling, and prostrating positions. The timed salat of the muslimeen is a collection of all that, both mental and physical, and not just "prayer".
The posture of bowing down / ruku
How can one "fall down" bowing? One can fall down kneeling
3824 He said ?He has wronged you by asking to combine your lamb with his lambs. And many who mix their properties take advantage of one another, except those who believe and do good works, and these are very few.? And David guessed that We had tested him, so he sought forgiveness from his Lord, and fell down kneeling (kharra raaki'an), and repented.
How can one give "zakat" while "bowing"? One can give "zakat" humbly
555 For your supporter is God and His messenger and those who believe; they uphold the communion, and contribute towards betterment while being humble (wa hum raaki'oon).
The posture of prostrating
Sujud signifies obedience to God. A physical sujud performed without any mental obedience to God is not a sujud. The mental sujud is more important, but the physical sujud mentioned in The Quran is "to the chin" (lil adhqaan, 17107 and 17109) and not the forehead (jabeen).
They claim this sitting is absolute proof to the extent of the duration of Tashah-hud.
Who is the "they"? I thought we submit peacefully to God alone.
Where does God ask us to "sit to the extent of tashahhud" in salat in The Quran?If any of these constituents are left out or not fulfilled, there salat is rendered null and void. There salat in such case must be performend again
Whose commandment is this? Where does God say this in The Quran? Who makes laws other than God?
16116 And do not say regarding what your tongues describe with lies ?This is lawful and that is forbidden;? that you seek to invent lies about God. Those who invent lies about God will not succeed.
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Peace Mr. Deen,
When I hear about the repetitions in prayer, and how strick the movements must be, I think of someone suffering from obsessive-compulsive disorder.
I don't see any connection between 4102, and "two rakats" either. It only makes sense, that one groups prays first, and then the other.
- Timed salat of the muslimeen is not "prayer" only. Please see above post.
- What about the same leader in 4102 who performs salat two times or two units?
Right before 4102 is the command to shorten the salat during time of war.
4101 And if you go forth in the land, then there is no harm that you shorten from the salat, if you fear that the disbelievers will try you. The disbelievers are to you a clear enemy.
The leader performs two units of salat while the others perform only one unit per 4101-102
I agree that the most important component of the timed salat of the muslimeen is not the physical movements. Timed salat of the muslimeen is both mental and physical, with the mental component much more important.
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Peace aw,
Where in The Quran does God ask us to "make intention" for salat? Please give the relevant verse.
This is my understanding
17110 ...............And do not raise your voice through prayer, and do not be quiet and hide with it, and form an intention between that.
17111 And say all praises to God who did not take a son, nor does He have a partner in soverinty, nor does He have an all out of weakness........Peace aw,
Where does God tell us in The Quran that "salat" is "to pray"? He uses the word "dua" for "prayer", not "salat".
Timed salaat of the muslimeen = connecting with God by reciting and reading from The Quran with understanding + remembering Him + glorifying Him + praising Him + praying to Him + seeking forgiveness from Him + repenting from our sins + being humble (ruku) + being obedient to God (sujud) + persisting in His way (qiyam). This can be done in standing, kneeling, and prostrating positions. The timed salat of the muslimeen is a collection of all that, both mental and physical, and not just "prayer".
Salat = prayer
The communion/ prayer service = teaching family/the sermone + praises to God+ prayer/salat + the reading from Quran.... All to be done in the prayer time.
Salat is seperate from all else ( the reading, ect...), they are all seperate deeds....that are observed within the same time frame...
Peace aw,
Sujud signifies obedience to God. A physical sujud performed without any mental obedience to God is not a sujud. The mental sujud is more important, but the physical sujud mentioned in The Quran is "to the chin" (lil adhqaan, 17107 and 17109) and not the forehead (jabeen).
I agree...
Who is the "they"? I thought we submit peacefully to God alone.
Where does God ask us to "sit to the extent of tashahhud" in salat in The Quran?Whose commandment is this? Where does God say this in The Quran? Who makes laws other than God?
16116 And do not say regarding what your tongues describe with lies ?This is lawful and that is forbidden;? that you seek to invent lies about God. Those who invent lies about God will not succeed.
"they" = the sects/ sunnis and shiats
That is who I am talkin about... I ask the same questions you ask... Im not the one lyin....Most of the sects claims on salat and other things are not supported by Quran that I can find...
peace
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Peace aw,
This is my understanding
17110 ...............And do not raise your voice through prayer, and do not be quiet and hide with it, and form an intention between that.
17111 And say all praises to God who did not take a son, nor does He have a partner in soverinty, nor does He have an all out of weakness........There is no word in the original Arabic meaning "form an intention" there. The original Arabic word is "ibtagh", which means "seek". The correct translation is
17110 Say ?Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in making your salat, nor too quiet; but seek a path in between.
Salat = prayer
The communion/ prayer service = teaching family/the sermone + praises to God+ prayer/salat + the reading from Quran.... All to be done in the prayer time.
Salat is seperate from all else ( the reading, ect...), they are all seperate deeds....that are observed within the same time frame...
Salat is a combination of all these and more (see my previous post) in the context of "aqeemo alsalaat"/"establish/uphold salaat" referring to the timed salat of the muslimeen. The word used for prayer in the Quran is "DU'AA".
Example
338 It was then that Zachariah prayed to (DA'AA) his Lord, he said ?My Lord, grant me from You a good progeny, You are the hearer of prayers (DU'AA).?
1439 ?Praise be to God who has granted me in my old age Ishmael and Isaac. My Lord is the hearer of prayers(DU'AA).?
1440 ?My Lord, let me uphold the connection (SALAAT), and also from my progeny. Our Lord, accept my prayer (DU'AA).?
1441 ?Our Lord, forgive me and my parents, and the believers on the Day the judgment is called.?In 1440 "salaat"/connection is clearly mentioned separate from "du'aa"/prayer. Think of "du'aa"/prayer as SUBSET of "salat". Translating "salat" as "prayer" ignores the other important components of "salat" and is misleading.
"they" = the sects/ sunnis and shiats
That is who I am talkin about... I ask the same questions you ask... Im not the one lyin....Most of the sects claims on salat and other things are not supported by Quran that I can find...
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought it was your understanding but reading your post above again made me realize that you were pointing out the sectarians' concept and not yours. peace
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http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/quranindex.html
I'm looking up prayer.
011.114
YUSUFALI And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night For those things, that are good remove those that are evil Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord)Taking a look at christianity, and judaism, who I have the impression of, that 3 prayers pr day, is the standard.
In that light, this verse means, morning (beginning of day) midday (end of day), evening (approaches of the night).And then you have the friday prayer.
062.009
YUSUFALI O ye who believe! When the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly), hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of Allah, and leave off business (and traffic) That is best for you if ye but knew!
062.010
YUSUFALI And when the Prayer is finished, then may ye disperse through the land, and seek of the Bounty of Allah and celebrate the Praises of Allah often (and without stint) that ye may prosper.Nothing else happens there?
I see it as universally understood, that what is to be prayed, is al-fatiha. (any comments?)
Prayer is done..
022.026
YUSUFALI Behold! We gave the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying) "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer)... standing up, bowing, or while prostrated.
PICKTHAL O ye who believe! Bow down and prostrate yourselves, and worship your Lord, and do good, that haply ye may prosper.
Worship Allah, and do good.
PICKTHAL And if ye go in fear, then (pray) standing or on horseback. And when ye are again in safety, remember Allah, as He hath taught you that which (heretofore) ye knew not.
Prayer in fearsome situations, everyone knows this one, I think.
Is that it?
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Peace aw,
There is no word in the original Arabic meaning "form an intention" there. The original Arabic word is "ibtagh", which means "seek". The correct translation is
17110 Say ?Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in making your salat, nor too quiet; but seek a path in between.
Salat is a combination of all these and more (see my previous post) in the context of "aqeemo alsalaat"/"establish/uphold salaat" referring to the timed salat of the muslimeen. The word used for prayer in the Quran is "DU'AA".
Example
338 It was then that Zachariah prayed to (DA'AA) his Lord, he said ?My Lord, grant me from You a good progeny, You are the hearer of prayers (DU'AA).?
1439 ?Praise be to God who has granted me in my old age Ishmael and Isaac. My Lord is the hearer of prayers(DU'AA).?
1440 ?My Lord, let me uphold the connection (SALAAT), and also from my progeny. Our Lord, accept my prayer (DU'AA).?
1441 ?Our Lord, forgive me and my parents, and the believers on the Day the judgment is called.?In 1440 "salaat" is clearly mentioned separate from "du'aa" and shows that "du'aa" can be part of salat. Think of "du'aa"/prayer as SUBSET of "salat". Translating "salat" as "prayer" ignores the other important components of "salat" and is misleading.
Literal Say "Call God, or call the merciful, whichever you call, so for Him (are) the names the best/most beautiful (the good names), and do not publicize/declare/raise (voice) with your prayers, and do not silence/lower and hide with it, and wish/desire between that a way/method."
My Translation
17110 Say call upon God, or call upon the Merciful; whatever you call upon, then the best names are for Him. And do not show-off with your prayers. And do not overawe and hide with it. And form an intention between that.
( Here are the words I used with linked meanings
wish/desire = intention, seek, ect....
way/method = form, style, ect...)
So from my understanding " seek" is to " intend."
Also salat does mean prayer also, and connection, supplication, ect....
Do you think that it would be clearer to say to one " keep the connection" or " keep the prayers."
Also what does this mean, can u bring the words for this
Fasalli lirabbika ( what does salli mean? and why do translaters use it to mean prayer. I thought that this word was salat, untill I looked at the literal>
And how is using the word " prayer" to mean salat is misleading... I think to mix the other components with salat and to say one has to do all these things in order to be considered to have salated, without any proofs is misleading.
Your understanding of salat is salat = praise, pray, read Quran, kneel, ect....
my understanding of salat is salat = pray
I see were u comin from, and for one to know, i know what u are talkin about... Beacuse we are commanded to do all these things within the same time frame...
And if salat = all these things that u say is a component...then you said "prayer" is a part of this connection too, so show me were we are to pray in the " connection ". I see were we are to read, ect... with the salat...but I dont see anywere were prayer is a part of salat looking at it from ur view.
peace
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Peace Mr. Deen,
http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/quranindex.html
I'm looking up prayer.
If you look up "prayer" the results will be misleading. In the Quran, the word used for "prayer" is "DU'AA" and not "SALAAT". Du'aa/prayer can be part of salaat but can be done outside salat too. Du'aa/prayer is a SUBSET of "salat"/connection/link/bond. It will benefit you to use the phonetic search and search for "salaat".
Taking a look at christianity, and judaism, who I have the impression of, that 3 prayers pr day, is the standard.
In that light, this verse means, morning (beginning of day) midday (end of day), evening (approaches of the night).And then you have the friday prayer.
We have to accept only those parts that the Quran authenticates/confirms. We cannot interpret the Quran "in light of christianity and judaism", but it should be the other way around.
Please read the following post which gives comprehensive proof of two timed salaat of the muslimeen from the Quran
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14793.msg151204#msg151204
I see it as universally understood, that what is to be prayed, is al-fatiha. (any comments?)
NO SECTARIAN says what God DEFINITELY wants us to say in our salat. How much more can they reject God's words ?
17110 Say ?Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in making your connection/salaat, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.
17111 AND SAY ?Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness.? And glorify Him greatly.In general, ANY part of the Quran can be read in the salat, especially the parts about remembrance, praise, and glorification of God, including His beautiful attributes/names, and various Quranic "du'aa"/prayers. This automatically includes the first chapter. In addition to that, we should read a passage of the Quran in every salat with understanding, and then try to implement the lessons of that passage in our lives. That is what "sujud" signifies obedience of God, not just blind recitation like a parrot. Slowly, this will result in rejection of all the evil and vice
2945 Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and uphold the salat/connection, for the salat/connection prohibits evil and vice; but certainly the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do.
Prayer is done..
.. standing up, bowing, or while prostrated.
How can one "fall down" bowing? One can fall down kneeling
3824 He said ?He has wronged you by asking to combine your lamb with his lambs. And many who mix their properties take advantage of one another, except those who believe and do good works, and these are very few.? And David guessed that We had tested him, so he sought forgiveness from his Lord, and fell down kneeling (kharra raaki'an), and repented.
How can one give "zakat" while "bowing"? One can give "zakat" humbly
555 For your supporter is God and His messenger and those who believe; they uphold the salat/connection, and contribute towards betterment while being humble (wa hum raaki'oon).
Worship Allah, and do good.
"O'budoo" is "SERVE", not worship. We serve God by believing in Him and the Last Day, obeying His commands and doing good deeds and walking the straight path. That is the purpose of our existence.
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2945 Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and uphold the salat/connection, for the salat/connection prohibits evil and vice; but certainly the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do.
Again to point this out, this verse says recite the Scripture and keep the salat. My understanding is that we are being told to do two things. 1. recite Scripture 2. keep the salat
But it doesnt say that reciting the Scripture is salat. Reciting the scripture is one thing, and salating is another. I hope im makin sence.
Peace truth seeker.
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Peace aw,
Literal Say "Call God, or call the merciful, whichever you call, so for Him (are) the names the best/most beautiful (the good names), and do not publicize/declare/raise (voice) with your prayers, and do not silence/lower and hide with it, and wish/desire between that a way/method."
My Translation
17110 Say call upon God, or call upon the Merciful; whatever you call upon, then the best names are for Him. And do not show-off with your prayers. And do not overawe and hide with it. And form an intention between that.
( Here are the words I used with linked meanings
wish/desire = intention, seek, ect....
way/method = form, style, ect...)
So from my understanding " seek" is to " intend."
To seek as used in that verse is not just to intend but to actually do what we are being told to do. What we are being told is to use a moderate tone in salat. So "seek a path in between" means "to use a moderate tone" and not "to intend".
Do you think that it would be clearer to say to one " keep the connection" or " keep the prayers."
God does not say "aqeemo du'aa"/uphold the prayer, but "aqeemo salaat"/uphold the connection/link/bond. God does not use His words haphazardly. We cannot force our meanings upon what God is saying, when he clearly uses a different word for prayer which is DU'AA.
Also what does this mean, can u bring the words for this
Fasalli lirabbika ( what does salli mean? and why do translaters use it to mean prayer. I thought that this word was salat, untill I looked at the literal>
It means "therefore, connect to your Lord".
And how is using the word " prayer" to mean salat is misleading... I think to mix the other components with salat and to say one has to do all these things in order to be considered to have salated, without any proofs is misleading.
It is misleading because God uses a different word for "prayer" in the Quran, which is "DU'AA". Various components of salat
1778 You shall hold the salat at the setting of the sun until the darkness of the night; and the Qur?an at dawn; the Qur?an at dawn is witnessed.
17107 Say ?Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating.?
17110 Say ?Call (od'oo) on God or call (od'oo) on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on (tad'oo), for to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in making your connection, nor too quiet; but seek a path in between.
17111 And say ?Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness.? And glorify Him greatly.
2945 Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and uphold the salat/connection, for the salat/connection prohibits evil and vice; but certainly the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do.
I see were u comin from, and for one to know, i know what u are talkin about... Beacuse we are commanded to do all these things within the same time frame...
Exactly handshake
That is why "salat" cannot be just translated as "prayer". According to the Quran, "prayer" = "DU'AA".
And if salat = all these things that u say is a component...then you said "prayer" is a part of this connection too, so show me were we are to pray in the " connection ". I see were we are to read, ect... with the salat...but I dont see anywere were prayer is a part of salat looking at it from ur view.
17110 Say ?Call (od'oo) on God or call (od'oo) on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on (tad'oo), for to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in making your salat/connection, nor too quiet; but seek a path in between.
17111 And say ?Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness.? And glorify Him greatly.
"OD'OO" and "TAD'OO" is "pray/call". As you can see from 17110, it is clearly PART of salat, and not salat itself.
Salaat cannot be just "prayer" because it includes recitation/reading of the Quran with comprehension, and praise, glorification, and remembrance of God, in addition to "du'aa"/prayer, as per the Quranic evidences I have presented above.
May The God guide us to the truth.
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Peace aw,
Again to point this out, this verse says recite the Scripture and keep the salat. My understanding is that we are being told to do two things. 1. recite Scripture 2. keep the salat
But it doesnt say that reciting the Scripture is salat. Reciting the scripture is one thing, and salating is another. I hope im makin sence.
Peace truth seeker.
1778 You shall uphold the connection at the setting of the sun until the darkness of the night; and the Qur?an at dawn; the Qur?an at dawn is witnessed.
Combining this with 11114 it is clear that Quran is part of salat.
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Peace aw,
1778 You shall uphold the connection at the setting of the sun until the darkness of the night; and the Qur?an at dawn; the Qur?an at dawn is witnessed.
Combining this with 11114 it is clear that Quran is part of salat.
1778 Keep the prayers on the verge of sunset untill the nights blakness; and the dawn Quran. The dawn quran has been made official.
God does not say "aqeemo du'aa"/uphold the prayer, but "aqeemo salaat"/uphold the connection/link/bond. God does not use His words haphazardly. We cannot force our meanings upon what God is saying, when he clearly uses a different word for prayer which is DU'AA.
It means "therefore, connect to your Lord".
It is misleading because God uses a different word for "prayer" in the Quran, which is "DU'AA". Various components of salat
That is why "salat" cannot be just translated as "prayer". According to the Quran, "prayer" = "DU'AA".
"OD'OO" and "TAD'OO" is "pray/call". As you can see from 17110, it is clearly PART of salat, and not salat itself.
Salaat cannot be just "prayer" because it includes recitation/reading of the Quran with comprehension, and praise, glorification, and remembrance of God, in addition to "du'aa"/prayer, as per the Quranic evidences I have presented above.
May The God guide us to the truth.
so if salli means connect to your Lord 108, then dont salli mean salat.
I understand that salat is a connection too, i believe in all of it. I believe salat = connect, prayer, suplicate, implore, ect... an thanks for pointing out that prayer specifically means dua. But is there a specific word that means " connection" or is salat the only word that is used to mean connection?
Example the quran says recite quran and keep the connection... So I know what and how to recite quran, but what is the connection and how does one connect according to these verses...Do u see the difference. 1. we are told to recite the quran 2. we are being told to also uphold the connection.
So if the connection is the recitation of quran, then why not say " you connect by reciting the quran, kneeling, praying, ect ( this is how to connect)..." instead of saying 1. recite quran 2. uphold the connection...
From my understanding is that the recitation of quran and the salat/connection are not the same.
peace
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I understand that salat is a connection too, i believe in all of it. I believe salat = connect, prayer, suplicate, implore, ect... an thanks for pointing out that prayer specifically means dua. But is there a specific word that means " connection" or is salat the only word that is used to mean connection?
Example the quran says recite quran and keep the connection... So I know what and how to recite quran, but what is the connection and how does one connect according to these verses...Do u see the difference. 1. we are told to recite the quran 2. we are being told to also uphold the connection.
So if the connection is the recitation of quran, then why not say " you connect by reciting the quran, kneeling, praying, ect ( this is how to connect)..." instead of saying 1. recite quran 2. uphold the connection...
From my understanding is that the recitation of quran and the salat/connection are not the same.
peace
Salat includes recitation of the Quran when we combine 1778 with 11114.
2945 implies to
- Recite the Quran (both inside and outside salat).
- Uphold the recitation of Quran, praise, remembrance and glorification of God and praying to God at timed intervals also in an organized manner. That is how we can connect to The God (establish/uphold salat).
- Remember The God (both inside and outside salat).
