-=[ Salaat Al Wusta is Salaat al Juma ]=-
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Salaaman Wakas,
In your post that you have given link, you are not taking "Wusta" as "Middle" only because it does not fit / not logical in anyways.
Lets say it was, "Preserve the prayers, and the middle prayer, and stand devoutly for God." -
- This phrasing implies the middle prayer is more important than other prayers as this is already covered under "preserve the prayers", so why mention it again?
There is no other evidence in Al-Quran to suggest the middle prayer is more important than others, in fact, it seems to imply that the quran/reading at dawn is most important IF any had to be chosen.
You can find answer for this in my post. And Juma Salaat might be more important than others, Allah knows best.
- If "middle" is chosen then 2239 doesn't fit well, because it implies we are allowed to do salat on the move, if so, which one is it talking about, prayers in general or just the middle prayer?
I think 2239 has not connection with Salaat AlWusta but it is refering to Salawaat. Because, as I said, Wusta is refering to Juma Salaat and Allah says "O you who believe, when the call is sounded for Salaat Al Juma, then..........".
And 2239 starts with "Fa in Khiftum....." In this situation how will one call for Salaat? So, it is not in reference with Wusta Salaat.
- The middle prayer, if there is one, would be the only one without a stated time-range, the dawn & dusk salat have time-ranges. It is logical to have a time range. Please think about this concept.
Time-range has been mentioned in AlQuraan only for Salaat Al Eishaan. No duration has been mentioned for Salaat Al Fajr (correct me if I am wrong). We have follow the same time-range or duration for Salaat Al Fajr as well as Salaat Al Wusta.
- Also, there is no traditional salat named wusta, indicating it was never taken to mean a specific salat. The traditional names applied to noon-time salat are Zohr & Asr.
Therefore it is unlikely that it means middle.
No comments on traditional Salaats...
You can just hit a thought on what I wrote.
All suggestions, corrections and thoughts are welcome.
May Allah guide us all towards the correct path. And may Allah increase us in knowledge.
Regards,
mmKhan - This phrasing implies the middle prayer is more important than other prayers as this is already covered under "preserve the prayers", so why mention it again?
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I strongly recommend the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0Salaaam Wakas,
Thank you for recommending this site I appreciate your effort to guide us toward the truth. However I looked into this and saw that the thread is dominated by Ayman?s version; he has manoeuvred it from start to end. I see this not much different from the hot Ramadan thread where a similar group of contributors have been establishing his deen. I do not see you as among those but your early post started like this;
238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
? Reply #7 on February 20, 2004, 054626 PM ?
peace Kyle,I dont think 2458 refers to noon. Either does Ayman I believe. The following are my notesLater you confirm that its from Ayman by saying this
2238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
? Reply #11 on February 20, 2004, 105550 PM
peace marie,I have also read that 'al' before a noun makes it general, cant remember where though. I'm not good with grammar.
peace Kyle,
It was originally Ayman's observation, although his understanding is different from mine.
WakasEven though your understanding is different from Ayman's, the thread ends with his verdict.
peace -
peace mmkhan,
When Allah talks about Plural Salaats it is not in relation to per day Salaats. But it in referance to all Salaats in a week. How weekly?
I disagree with the logic and assumption in your basic premise above. "juma" and its relation to "salat" has been discussed before.
Time-range has been mentioned in AlQuraan only for Salaat Al Eishaan. No duration has been mentioned for Salaat Al Fajr (correct me if I am wrong).
There is a time range for salat al fajr, and it can be from morning twilight until the sun completely rises above horizon. I recommend reviewing the verses discussing possible time ranges.
Please bear in mind, the above is based on my understanding which will be imperfect ad infinitum.
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Peace everyone,
Please see the following post by Samia that proves "alsalaat alwusta" cannot mean middle salat
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11539.msg85122#msg85122
Excerpt from above for those who wont click on links
"The words "wasatan", "awsat" , "awsatuhum" and "wusta", all adjectives, were mentioned in the Qur'aan once each (four different verses)
Chapter 2 verse 143
Cahpter 5 verse 89
Chapter 68 verse 28
Chapter 2 verse 238and they mean by order just; average; best or most rational and the best prayer.
The word "wasatna" as verb came once in Chapter 100 verse 5 meaning to penetrate into the midst (of the enemy). This is the only context where this word means middle, but only when it came as verb, not adjective.
As for "alsalatul wusta" not being in the plural, this is because here "salat" is not a noun, but a verbal noun, and thus comes only in the singular and in the definite form (meaning praying not prayer)."
This doesn't have any "ayman influence"
Also please check out the following post that I found using search function which also shows the proper timings of salat with Quranic proof and how "alsalat alwusta" cannot mean "middle salat"
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14793.msg151204#msg151204
Again for those who don't click on links I will post excerpt from above
"TWO EDGES OF THE DAYTIME
11114 And you shall hold the connection/salaat at the two edges (tarafayi) of the daytime, and the near parts (zulafan) of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.
The "zulafan" in 11114 is plural, not singular, meaning "near PARTS of the night".
First 11114 mentions the two edges "TARAFAYI" of the daytime. According to 20130, by the usage of the words "ATRAAF AN-NIHAAR", daytime has 3 or more edges (The word atraaf is plural for three or more edges). Now the question arises that which two edges of the daytime The God is talking about in 11114 ? The God answers that by telling us precisely which two edges of the daytime the ones that are also the near parts of the night, i.e. dawn and dusk.
The qur'aanic daytime is from onset of dawn to onset of complete darkness of the night, and the qur'aanic night is from just after the sunset to just before sunrise. Thus they overlap at dawn and dusk.
Please see the following article for details about qur'aanic daytime and qur'aanic night
http//free-minds.org/articles/science/quranic.htm
One edge of the day which is also the corresponding near part of the night is dawn (dawn is included in the qur'aanic night and is the part of the night near sunrise and is also the first edge of the day). The other edge of the day which is also the corresponding near part of the night is dusk.
This can also be explained as follows
1st edge of the day = dawn = one near part of the night (part of night near the sunrise)
last edge of the day = dusk = other near part of the night (part of night near the sunset)
Hence "near PARTS (plural) of the night" in 11114
The "wa" in Arabic is also used to mean "that is" and can separate two phrases/words referring to the same subject. Thus in 11114 it says "two edges of the daytime "wa"/"that is" near parts of the night", referring to the same time period of dawn and dusk.
If the near parts (plural) of the night is taken to be separate from the two edges of the daytime and not referring to the same time period then there will be two logical problems
- Which two edges of the daytime ?
- How many near parts of the night (with each near part for a separate salaat) ?
#2 can lead to 2,3,4,5........ salaats during the parts of the night close to sunset and 2,3,4,5........ salaats during the parts of the night close to sunrise, leading to unlimited number of salaats at night.
LI DULOOKISH-SHAMSI ILA GHASAQIL-LAYL
1778 You shall uphold the salaat from the sun's "DULOOK", to darkness of the night, and the Qur'aan at dawn; the Qur'aan at dawn is witnessed.
What is "DULOOK" ? This word is mentioned only one time in the Qur'aan. Its root is DLK, which means "to rub or to massage". "Dulook" can also mean "declination" but it does not mean "declination at noon". The sun can only appear to be "rubbing" when it rubs the horizon at sunrise and at sunset, but when it rubs at sunrise, it is not declining but ascending. The context (177 implies the meaning "the rubbing of the sun at sunset" (the context of the verse suggests that it is at sunset and not at sunrise).
When the sun rubs the horizon at sunset, it is also declining at that time, thus both meanings "rubbing" and "declination" fit.
LI DULOOKI AL-SHAMSI can only be interpreted as the sun's rubbing of the horizon and declination at sunset. With the preposition LI, which means (in this case) just after, the very precise interpretation of "li dulooki al-shamsi" would be when the sun starts rubbing the horizon. So if we take this interpretation, then the first part of the verse would be translated as follows
"Uphold the "salaat"/connection from the rubbing/setting of the sun up to darkness of the night" referring to "twilight".
The Qur'aan at dawn is synonymous with the salaat al-fajr; as one of the most important parts of upholding salaat is oration/reading of the Qur'aan.
Therefore this verse also confirms the same two times of upholding salaat as 2458 and thus 2458 is consistent with 1778.
TWO POINTS
Firstly, if "dulook" is interpreted as "declination at noon", then how come the noon salaat is not mentioned in 2458, where salaat al-fajr and salaat al-3isha are mentioned ?
Secondly AND MORE IMPORTANTLY
Even if this verse is wrongly translated as mentioning decline of sun from noon up to the darkness of the night, still Allah is mentioning ONE TIME PERIOD and referring to ONE SALAAT in that time period because it says "uphold the salaat (singular) from the sun's duluk until darkness of the night" in 1778, and not "uphold the SALAWAAT (plural) .............".
How can someone interpret this one salaat in that one time period as two salaats (noon and 3isha), when clearly that time period is mentioned for singular SALAAT in 1778 ? The false "noon" meaning is PURE CONJECTURE based on excess baggage of the sectarian notion of al-islaam based on the fabricated hearsays falsely attributed to Prophet Muhammad. 1778 refers to one salaat during that one time period of "from the sun's duluk to the darkness of the night", which is salaat al-3isha, and to one salaat at dawn signified by the dawn Reading, and thus the correct translation can only be "from the setting of the sun to darkness of the night".
AL-SALAAT AL-WUSTA
Please go through all the occurrences of the word "WST" in the Qur'aan and see what it consistently means in the Qur'aan. Let me help you do that by quoting the relevant part from the following article
http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat2.htm
Middle (Wusta) Salaat.
Wusta- is the word that is used to mean "middle" in 2238. Let us read and see if this fits throughout The Reading.
The God will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average/best/balanced (AWSAT) for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth The God make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful.
The God tells us that for expiation, we are to give average type of food like we would give our own families. We are to give a balanced meal, one that contains some nutrition , but not one that we have to spend our life savings on.
"O ye who believe! Give of the GOOD THINGS which ye have earned, and of the fruits of the earth which We have produced for you, and do not even aim at getting anything which is bad, in order that out of it ye may give away something, when ye yourselves would not receive it except with closed eyes. And know that The God is Free of all wants, and worthy of all praise."
Average can also be seen as middle from the above explanation, so lets dig a little further for clarification.
More clarifications-
There are two other clarifying verses that settle this dispute (Remember disputes are to be settled with the messenger, the ever living messenger , The Reading (459))
" But when they saw the garden they said ' we have surely lost our way indeed we are deprived.' Said "AWSATUHUM" 'Did not I say to you, 'Why not glorify The God?' "
So, using our minds that we are responsible for, would we place "middle" or "most balanced" in this verse? Clearly it was the 'most balanced' man, what would be the ?middle? man? The one who suggested glorifying The God was the most balanced because the righteous are those who maintain the balance of all things in life, they keep the proper perspective of the material world and the spiritual world.
O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of The GOD is the most righteous. The GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant.
You see this is how The God teaches us the names as He did for Adam (237) and will do for all of His devotees who turn completely to Him.
The shaytaan (deceiver) has been exposed, but there is more falsehood that needs its brains knocked out by the truth.
"Thus we have made you an "ummatan WASATAN", that you might be witnesses over the nations and the messenger a witness over yourselves;..."
Has The God made the believers a 'middle group' or has He made the believers a BALANCED group? The Most Merciful has not left it up for us to guess. He has clarified it for us.
"Ye are the MOST BALANCED/BEST of people (khayra ummatan) evolved for mankind. Enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believe in The God..."
Salaat is a function which will make you a balanced human being, one who has not gotten lost in the material illusion and remembers that He/She is only here for a test.
Know that this worldly life is no more than play and games, and boasting among you, and hoarding of money and children. It is like abundant rain that produces plants and pleases the disbelievers. But then the plants turn into useless hay, and are blown away by the wind. In the Hereafter there is either severe retribution, or forgiveness from GOD and approval. This worldly life is no more than a temporary illusion.
Finally, please ponder my following questions
2238 is not referring to a particular salaat by the name of "middle" salaat but is referring to the "best/balanced" salaat. If it is the "middle" salaat, then
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DID ALLAH FORGET TO TELL WHICH SALAAT IS THE FIRST SALAAT ?
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HOW DO YOU DETERMINE WHICH ONE IS MIDDLE ?
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WHICH SALAAT IS ALLAH REFERRING TO AS MIDDLE ?
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DID ALLAH FORGET TO TELL US THAT ?
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Why is "salaat of noon" or "salaat of dusk" the middle salaat ? Did Allah say that "fajr" is the FIRST salaat ?
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If Allah has not given us a starting point as to which is the first salaat then how can we determine the "middle" salaat ? I can arbitrarily say that "3isha" salaat is the first salat, that would make "fajr" as the "middle" one then, if there are 3 salaats !
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If there was indeed a middle salaat then how come The God forgot to mention it in 2458 ?
2458 O you who believe, let those who are committed to you by oath, and those who have not yet attained puberty, request your permission regarding three times before salaat/connection of dawn, and when you put off your attire from the noon time, and after salat/connection of dusk. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Why did He not mention "salaat of noon" or "salaat of darkness of night" here ?
- Let us consider 2238
2238 Maintain the SALAWAAT/connections, and the WUSTA SALAAT/connection; and stand dutiful for God.
Notice The God asking us to maintain SALAWAAT/connectionS (plural), and then immediately adds WUSTA SALAAT. Now if "wusta salaat" means "middle" and it is a separate salaat, then hasn't The God already mentioned ALL SALAATS just before it and wouldn't that include "middle" salaat as well ? Saying SALAWAT/ConnectionS and then saying the name of another salaat would be redundant, won't it ?
Let me give an example. Suppose I tell a medical student
Read your medical books and the internal medicine book.
Am I not being redundant because "medical books" already includes "internal medicine book" ?
Suppose I tell you
Bring your dressES and the red dress.
Isn't the red dress already included in "dressES" and would it not then be redundant to add it after I already said "dressES" ?
The only way it will make sense is if "wusta salaat" is not the name of a separate salaat but is a description of what all our salaats should be like, i.e. the best/balanced salaat, (remember "wa" can mean "that is" and separate a descriptive attribute of a subject from the previously mentioned subject in Arabic) and then this usage will also be consistent with how the words derived from "WST" are used elsewhere in the Qur'aan.
You see, "wusta" meaning "middle" in 2238 does not make any sense, and leads to conjecturing as to which salaat is first and which is "middle" and would also cause a logical redundancy in 2238. It can only mean "best/balanced" salaat, meaning that ALL our salaats should be that way.
The following is quoted from one of the links I gave, in which I raised some logical questions against "wusta" meaning middle in 2238
"In my understanding there is no such thing as the "middle" salaat in al-qur'aan. That is the wrong translation of "al-salaat al-wusta" which means "the best/balanced/moderate salaat" in the context of 2238 and al-qur'aan as a whole. According to 2238 Allah wants us to uphold all our salaats in the best/balanced/moderate manner.
Firstly, which salaat would be the "middle" salaat ? If there are 3 salaats x, y and z then depending on which one is the first or initial salaat would determine the middle salaat. For example if x is the first or initial salaat then y would be the middle salaat, but if y is the first salaat then z would be the middle one, and if z is the first salaat then x would be the middle one.
Allah never leaves something vague as al-qur'aan is clear and detailed. I challenge anyone to give qur'aanic evidence as to which salaat is CLEARLY the first salaat and which salaat is CLEARLY the "middle" salaat according to al-qur'aan. If the middle salaat is so important as to be mentioned separately in 2238 then Allah should have clearly told us which salaat He is talking about as the middle salaat and not leave it unclear and up to guess work.
Secondly, in 2238 when it says protect the salaats in the beginning of the verse, that logically includes ALL salaats and then it is redundant to say AND the middle salaat, if the middle salaat is a separate salaat, because the word salaats in the beginning of the verse automatically includes the middle salaat as well IF THERE IS INDEED A MIDDLE SALAAT. That logically proves that by "al-salaat al-wusta" Allah does not mean a separate middle salaat but is giving a descriptive property of how ALL our salats should be, i.e. the best/balanced/moderate salaat, meaning that all our salaats should be upheld in the best/balanced/moderate manner.
Thirdly, if one studies the usage of all the words derived from the root WST in al-qur'aan one finds that the meaning "middle" does not fit in any of those usages but the meaning best/balanced/moderate fits in those occurrences. Thus in 2238 "wusta" cannot mean middle because of the logical contradiction presented in the second paragraph above, and can only mean "best/balanced/moderate" as per context of that verse and the usage of similar words throughout al-qur'aan.
Please go through the following links again very carefully, with concentration
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0 (for a detailed discussion on "al-salaat al-wusta"
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9110.msg107691#msg107691
One important point to consider is that "salaat of dawn" and "salaat of dusk" are mentioned in al-qur'aan without the AL before the salaat
SALAAT AL-FAJR (245
SALAAT AL-3ISHA (245
meaning "salaat OF dawn" and "salaat OF dusk".
However the wusta salaat is mentioned with the AL before the salaat
AL-SALAAT AL-WUSTA (223
In this phrase, there is "AL" before BOTH "salaat" and "wusta", and in such a construction, "wusta" will be the adjective of "salaat", meaning "wusta salaat" (wusta used as adjective) and not "salaat OF wusta", which is one point in favor of it not being the name/time of a salaat.
YAWM AL-JUM3AH
My understanding of "yawm al-jum3ati" according to al-qur'aan is as follows
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12991.msg106788#msg106788
The word "yaum" in al-qur'aan refers to a time period and not necessarily a 24 hour day.
In my understanding, there is no such thing as the Friday salaat according to al-qur'aan. There is no basis of a seven day week from al-qur'aan. The proper name of the day Jum'ah was hijacked from the common noun "al-jum'ah" from 629 meaning "the assembly or gathering" and "yaum al-jum'ah" in 629 means "time of the assembly/gathering". Now Allah never leaves anything vague/unclear in al-qur'aan. Which time is the time of the assembly/gathering according to al-qur'aan then ? If we look closely we find that the only time we are called to gather/assemble in this world in al-qur'aan is for hajj
2227 And call out to the people with the hajj, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
In my understanding the "yaum al-jum'ah" in 629 refers to this time when the people are gathered for hajj and 629 refers to the call to the salat at this particular assembly/gathering for hajj and then the command to hasten towards remembring Allah and CEASE ALL SELLING makes total sense.
I would like to quote a relevant excerpt from brother Ayman's article "How did it come to this? (part 1)
"Another interesting common thread that runs through several of those idols is that they all had association with Friday. For example, Ashtoreth is connected to Friday. So is Venus, where the Romans named Friday after her as "dies veneris". The very name Friday is derived from the Norse goddess, Frigga. When the Germanic tribes invaded England they imposed their goddess upon the day meant to honor Venus. The day was called Frigedaeg, which gradually became "Friday". I don't think that it is a coincidence that Friday also became the "holy day" for sectarians who venerate Allat/Aphrodite and her black cube and Black Stone." - Ayman"
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Peace everyone,
Please look at the following post also by progod about "yaum aljum'at"
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14793.msg151827#msg151827
"In Arabic it is not as clear as that. Definite in Arabic can refer to a definite object, day etc. or it can refer to a collective.
A classical example of this is 8922's use of Al-malaku to mean all angels and not 'the angel' as one of the examples I pointed out before.In Classical Arabic some nouns have collectives that are different than the regular noun. For instance al-Arabee for 'the Arab man/thing/language' and Al-Arabu for Arabs in general. There are other words that have a specific word for the collective, but most will just use the definite singular or plural. If we take the word dog as an example, in order to say 'Dogs' in general you either say al-kalbu (literally 'the dog' or al-kilaabu (literally 'the dogs'.
So if you are looking for a way to say 'the gathering day' exclusively like we do in English to mean a specific gathering day and nothing else, that does not exist in most cases in Arabic. When you say 'the gathering day' in Arabic you can be talking about a specific gathering day OR gathering days in general. Do you understand what I mean?
So in a summary
Al-yawmu Al-jum&ati/Al-jum&atu = GRAMMATICALLY WRONG.
Al-yawmu Al-jum&eeyu/Al-jum&ee= GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT. However this can refer to a specific gathering day or all gathering days.
yawmul-jum&ati= is based on the meaning of al-jum&atu because literally this construction is 'The gathering's day'. Since al-jumu&ati can mean the gathering or all gathering, yawmul-jum&ati can also refer to a specific day or all days/times of gathering.
So, is there a way to refer to a specific gathering exclusively without POSSIBLY (even if not probably) referring to the general, collective concept of that gathering? No. It can be either or, and the context is what dictates the understanding.
Since the understanding 'times of gathering' can include all times of gathering, including Hajj, why limit the more universal message of going to pray when called to pray despite social gatherings only to Hajj? It is obvious that this also includes Hajj. It is also obvious that human beings have and also will participate in more social gatherings than just the Hajj, and that our commemoration and remembrance of God through prayer when he tells us to pray is always important despite any social gathering in which we may find ourselves, Hajj or whatever else."
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peace farida,
I'm not sure what you are referring to. Whilst I may respect/appreciate brother Ayman's input/articles/etc I am not a follower of his or anyone else for that matter. See 3918.
Salaam Wakas
I never said you are of the followers but I wanted to draw your attention to the core of the thread, which is trying to undermine the system established by Mohammad the prophet of God, 461 When they are told, "Come to what GOD has revealed, and to the messenger," you see the hypocrites shunning you completely.
Indeed Those who listen to the word, then follow the best of it; those are they whom Allah has guided, and those it is who are the men of understanding.Allah is well aware of those who are guided and are the wo/men of understanding.
peace -
Salaaman Zidane,
If you think Salaat is not ritual prayer then can you please translate for me 4102
Thank you for adding your views.
Regards,
mmKhanSalamunalaikum dear mmkhan,
Verse 4102
4102 And if you are with them and you hold the communion for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group who has not yet communed come and commune with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.
As you requested, here's my view on this verse
Salaat means, to me, bond/laws of God which should be upholded
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"you" is referring to the Messenger and "The duty of the Messenger is ONLY to clearly deliver the Message" (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15121.msg142674#msg142674) - this is his Bond with God. (He can't do do ritual "for them", can he? I mean, do Zohr instead of them, or if you think it referrs to Imam then the traditional ritual history even says that praying together as a group was started after prophet's death.)
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Therefore, this referral to bond/salat is same as in 441-44 people who were witness with the messenger should pay great attentention (as their own bond to God too...) to this "bond" of the messenger clearly delivering the Message - that is they must come to receive/learn the revelation/wahi with great attention - "Did you not see those who have been given a portion of the Scripture? They purchased straying, and they want you to stray from the path." - others probably didn't and strayed.
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As per 4101, this can be reduced when emigrating with the messenger... see the theme/context of verses before this verse.
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Then 4102, suggest a way to make the gathering for receiving the revelation during war. Note that prostrate in the quran, to me, means to accept willingly (like trees, stars fully following God's laws, etc.) , now in this verse "and when they have prostrated" - please note that prostrate is not the ending of a traditional ritual prayer.
Then 4103 So, when you are done making the communion, then remember God while standing, or sitting, or on your sides. So, when you are relieved, then uphold the communion. Indeed, the communion for the believers becomes a timed schedule.
This shows that after receiving/learn/accpeting the revelation, let them remember God (and his laws, possibly especially the one just delivered), and uplhold it. and it is a timed meeting - time for the communion to receive the revelation delivery regularly.
In this case - the delivered revelation is about
4105 We have revealed to you the Scripture with truth that you may judge between the people by that which God has shown you, and do not be an advocate for the treacherous.
4106 And seek forgiveness from God; God is Forgiver, Merciful.
4107 And do not argue on behalf of those who betray themselves. God does not like those who are betrayers, sinners.This is clearly, to me, explaining to the messenger and believers with him a divine solution to the problem mentioned in this verse
488 What is the matter with you that you are divided into two groups over the hypocrites, while God has regressed them for what they have earned? Do you want to guide those whom God misguides? Whoever God causes to be misguided, you will never find for him a way.
Therefore, "the treacherous.", "those who betray themselves" in the verses just revealed refers to the hypocrites in 488
I would like to summarize that the Quran must be understood by considering the context well and sincerely asking God to guide.
There are many verses such as these that aren't so apparent to us since they're not talking to us - they're talking to the messenger and the belivers with him - their bonds, their situations which we can't possibly do or really need to focus. We should focus on praising/thanking God and doing good as given in our Natural moral understanding, as suggested by his evident moral laws to us, for example like 6151-153, etc. or things like be kind to your parents, speak only the truth, good to your relatives, neighbor, be honest in trade/weigh and decision, good to the poor, do deeds for betterment of the society etc.
Also, Brother Wakas has posted a lot on this forum, including links to his articles explaining well on this ritual salat issue.
I'm sorry for going off-topic here, just sharing my views on the verse. I shall not go more off topic for this thread nor do I have the time to come and re-discuss about this ritual salaat debate. I'm sure, if anyone is interested, he/she can find a lot to read on understanding salaat as bonds to God.
The key to this issue, as I see it, is to study the Quran as a related compilation that explains things in harmony - seek the clarification from the context/surrounding verses - sincerely ask God to guide.
May God Guide & Bless,
Zidane. -
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the system established by Mohammad the prophet of God
Salamunalaikum dear sister farida,
The problem is that what's the concrete evidence that this ritual IS what the prophet did?
When we want worship/thank/praise/follow God alone
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In this case to obey God and/via his messenger (We can only know what God says from the Messenger and the Messenger can only speak what God says = In Muhammad's case only the Quran http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15121.msg142674#msg142674).
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The Quran is complete, fully detailed. God didn't leave anything out of it, etc.
Then, where is the method to do the ritual prayer IN THE QURAN? Where does it say something like put your hands at your ear, say alluhuakbar, then down to chest then read this surah then followed by that surah then put your hands to your knees then say.... etc. (AFAIK such detailed complete method doesn't exist in sequence/harmony in the hadith too.)
Also, where is "5 times a day" or timing calculation in the Quran? I've seen some theories but they don't seem to be aware of the context - just cut and paste from here and there to make justify/it as 5 times, probably to make it like what the majority do.
The issue of focus is not how any ritual physically/mentally benefits you - meditation (I like to do it too) in Buddhist or other asian religions benefit too, or even yoga (I like some yoga too!) or aerobics - the issue is rather of what IS that God wants us to do. (Worship/thank/follow God alone and do good! Believe in last day = you will be accountable for your deeds - so do good, stay away from evil, etc. For example 262, etc.)
Salaat translated as ritual prayer would conflict or make no sense in many verses like
- 91-12 (well explained by brother Wakas's articles.)
- 3356 (see salawat in 3343 - well explained by http//www.submission.org/muhammed/salawat.html)
- 17107 (Where, in the alleged prophet's ritual prostrate method is it told to prostrate to yur chin? - If prostrate means put your head to the ground...)
- What's the logic in that verse 2238 suddenly talks about the ritual when before that verse - many verses are about marraige and verses after that too.
- 2945 - Many people do the ritual but they still tell lies in their business, still talk about others from behind. (But if you do hold on to these moral bonds/laws of God of what's good and what's bad/prohibitted - it truly leads away from evil logically.)
If it's true, then it should not conflict.
Just my views, though. Sorry to go off-topic again.
Peace and respect. I truly apologize if I offended you or others in any way.
May God Guide & Bless,
Zidane. -
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Salamunalaikum dear sister farida,
When we want worship/thank/praise/follow God alone-
In this case to obey God and/via his messenger (We can only know what God says from the Messenger and the Messenger can only speak what God says = In Muhammad's case only the Quran http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15121.msg142674#msg142674).
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The Quran is complete, fully detailed. God didn't leave anything out of it, etc.
Then, where is the method to do the ritual prayer IN THE QURAN? Where does it say something like put your hands at your ear, say alluhuakbar, then down to chest then read this surah then followed by that surah then put your hands to your knees then say.... etc. (AFAIK such detailed complete method doesn't exist in sequence/harmony in the hadith too.)
The issue of focus is not how any ritual physically/mentally benefits you - meditation (I like to do it too) in Buddhist or other asian religions benefit too, or even yoga (I like some yoga too!) or aerobics - the issue is rather of what IS that God wants us to do. (Worship/thank/follow God alone and do good! Believe in last day = you will be accountable for your deeds - so do good, stay away from evil, etc. For example 262, etc.)
Salaat translated as ritual prayer would conflict or make no sense in many verses like
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91-12 (well explained by brother Wakas's articles.)
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3356 (see salawat in 3343 - well explained by http//www.submission.org/muhammed/salawat.html)
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What's the logic in that verse 2238 suddenly talks about the ritual when before that verse - many verses are about marraige and verses after that too.
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If it's true, then it should not conflict.
Just my views, though. Sorry to go off-topic again.
Peace and respect. I truly apologize if I offended you or others in any way.
May God Guide & Bless,
Zidane.Wasalamunalaikum Zidane,
As I said I respect your philosophical approach to salah and you said in earlier post that
Salaat means, to me, bond/laws of God which should be upholded
Likewise I beleive that that the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat) were given to Abraham. The Quran 2173
The Contact Prayers were in existence, intact, and practiced before the advent of Muhammad (see for example 835 & 954).
All positions of the Contact Prayers are found in the Quran, including the standing position (339, 399), the bowing and prostration positions (Rukoo' and Sajood) (243, 343, 9112, 2226,77).The problem is that what's the concrete evidence that this ritual IS what the prophet did?
The remains of Mosques discovered by archaeologists confirm that they were places of worship with the correct qibla direction (sorry don't have the link)
Also, where is "5 times a day" or timing calculation in the Quran? I've seen some theories but they don't seem to be aware of the context - just cut and paste from here and there to make justify/it as 5 times, probably to make it like what the majority do.
No five times prayers just three for excellent insight please read this article which answers most of your questions How Can We Observe The Salaat Prayers By Following The Quran Alone?"
Edip Yuksel
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat_edip.htm- 17107 (Where, in the alleged prophet's ritual prostrate method is it told to prostrate to yur chin? - If prostrate means put your head to the ground...)
Re Say "Believe with it or do not believe, that (E) those who were given/brought to the knowledge, from before it, if (it) is being read/recited on them, they fall down to the chins/beards prostrating
There is a sect who actually prostrate touching their chins to the ground but I do not see it that complicated, as long as you prostrate to God in humility, and that act alone make a person shed arrogance. It?s the act of prostration that disturbs many people they don?t want to bow down or humble themselves to anyone, as they feel they are self sufficient.2945 - Many people do the ritual but they still tell lies in their business, still talk about others from behind. (But if you do hold on to these moral bonds/laws of God of what's good and what's bad/prohibitted - it truly leads away from evil logically.)
It is sad that many people commit wrong after ritually praying to God as they have not grasped the true essence of this deen. Also the mosques have been used to promoting specific agendas and to make money.
Mosques built by hypocrites played a part in changing the face of politics from the time of the prophet and such mosques should be destroyed, but how many think about it, can you imagine a Muslim destroying a mosques today? No one can dare do that, as any mosque built; no matter how it's funded or who is behind the screen , it is taken as a true place of worship.
Worshipers pray behind Imams rewarded, in this world, in terms of paid wages for leading prayers. They are just doing their job and they cannot expect another reward form God for the paid job and, if their prayers were not for God but for wages, it will not be acceptable to God. As a result the prayers of all those who prayed behind such Imams are lost in the transit from one lord to another.
So please do not even start on the state of so called Muslims today it?s too long and toooo sad, how many pay any attention to the literal meaning of the verses below (sorry it make's long post)
Surah 9
107. And there are those who put up a mosque by way of mischief and infidelity - to disunite the Believers - and in preparation for one who warred against Allah and His Messenger a foretime. They will indeed swear that their intention is nothing but good; But Allah doth declare that they are certainly liars.
108. Never stand thou forth therein. There is a mosque whose foundation was laid from the first day on piety; it is more worthy of the standing forth (for prayer) therein. In it are men who love to be purified; and Allah loveth those who make themselves pure.
109. Which then is best? - he that layeth his foundation on piety to Allah and His good pleasure? - or he that layeth his foundation on an undermined sand-cliff ready to crumble to pieces? and it doth crumble to pieces with him, into the fire of Hell. And Allah guideth not people that do wrong.
110. The foundation of those who so build is never free from suspicion and shakiness in their hearts, until their hearts are cut to pieces. And Allah is All-Knowing, Wise.
111. Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise) they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded that is the achievement supreme.
112. Those that turn (to Allah. in repentance; that serve Him, and praise Him; that wander in devotion to the cause of Allah, that bow down and prostrate themselves in prayer; that enjoin good and forbid evil; and observe the limit set by Allah.- (These do rejoice). So proclaim the glad tidings to the Believers
peace -
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peace farida,
There has been previous discussions on sujood and rukoo, and I cant recall there being much evidence for these being physical movements as part of "salat". In fact, the evidence was to the contrary.
Salaam Wakas
I have read previous discussions on free-mind and I really do appreciate much of your work in this area, like the different meanings of Salah, and I learn a lot from you, may you gain more insight into it. However, in this respect,I do not agree with the evidence cited but agree totally with Edip.peace
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Salaaman Zidane,
Brother, I got lot of questions to ask from your message, but you said
I'm sorry for going off-topic here, just sharing my views on the verse. I shall not go more off topic for this thread nor do I have the time to come and re-discuss about this ritual salaat debate. I'm sure, if anyone is interested, he/she can find a lot to read on understanding salaat as bonds to God.
No probs, May Allah guide us all towards the Truth.
Regards,
mmKhan
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Salamunalaikum sister farida, brother mmkhan.
Peace dear sister farida, yes, I used to read that article and it looks good, just that now I understand that something else makes much more sense, for me, towards God alone. Not to start a debate here about what the mosque's according to quran is actually for or what it means. I respect that you have proven interesting points in support of the ritual way in some of the questions I raised. Please make sure you investigate them and the other questions in the way of bond/laws salat too, for example like the 4102 rendition I posted, and other peoples' post on this issue across the forum - see how it relates with the context, so you can see both ways and see what makes more sense, for yourself.
Agreed brother mmkhan, may God guide us all towards truth. )
I like to look at in the light of the story of Moses and the "a servant of Ours whom We had given him mercy from Us and We taught him knowledge from Us" in 1865 onwards - it shows that many people can be good in different ways - somethings seemed wrong to Moses but not to the other man who knew what he was doing.
As for us, I'm sure you know many things I don't about applying the ritual theory and vice versa. I'm sure we can learn from the others' view.
As for my point of view, just be sincere in your investigation and I'm sure you can learn from this salat = bond rendition of the quran too. At least, I hope the rendition of 4102 posted makes a lot of sense.
May God guide us to the sincere answers in our learning that would please God Himself.
May God Guide & Bless,
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Salaamun all,
here it is clear that before Salaat Al Juma, we are busy with Baeiy (selling) that we have to stop and run towards the Salaat when call has been made for Salaat on Friday. And when we finishes our Salaat, we have been guided to seek for Fazl of Allah. That clearly means that Salaat al Juma is not at the time of Fajr or Ishaan, but in the middle.
Now, everything sets up easily inshaAllah.
2238 Keep guard upon all Salaats (more than two), and the middle Salaat; and stand before Allah in devout obedience.
We have to guard all our regular Salaats as well as Salaat al Juma. Does this make sense?
Allah made things clear in His AlKitaab. Alhamdulillah.
Regards,
mmKhanpeace all ,
Juma will be held during the dawn and evening prayer service untill further notice.
Bring proof that we are to pray friday at noon. Buisnesses run 24/7 ( i.g. durning the dawn and evening time.)
Example " most of the time I have to caese my selling and put people on hold untill i finish salatin in the eving and somtiemes even during the dawn hours."
This is nothing new. Or did everyone only work during the day in the past and then everyone on the entire earth would go to sleep at night and no one worked during the nights or evening ect...? o
peace
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Salamunalaikum sister farida, brother mmkhan.
Peace dear sister farida, yes, I used to read that article and it looks good, just that now I understand that something else makes much more sense, for me, towards God alone. Not to start a debate here about what the mosque's according to quran is actually for or what it means. I respect that you have proven interesting points in support of the ritual way in some of the questions I raised. Please make sure you investigate them and the other questions in the way of bond/laws salat too, for example like the 4102 rendition I posted, and other peoples' post on this issue across the forum - see how it relates with the context, so you can see both ways and see what makes more sense, for yourself.
May God Guide & Bless,
Wasalaamualaikum Zidane,
Today as I was doing "Salah" for my body, I was raising my arms, jumping, jogging on the spot, twisting, skipping, resting on one leg, lounging, establishing balance, hopping, Sumo wrestling, karate kicking, boxing, also included lying flat, rolling on side, sit ups, stretching with my chin touching the floor, and ending with yoga style stretching. Interestingly it was during my routine exercise session that I ended up pondering upon 4102, which you kindly suggested that I should reflect upon.
Now, as you can see, during my exercise I did lots of moves, which can come under rituals as some people understand them, whereas the rest of the moves may be outside those mentioned in the Qur?an so, as some of the free-minders understand it, one could say I did ?Salah?. You see I am not missing out on anything. What I gain, but which others miss out on, is humbling myself in devotion before God at least three times a day, returning kindness with kindness, I would suggest that you too try doing sujood with complete submission and see how you feel.Its always nice talking to enlightened ones,
God BlessSalaam Anthoneywallace
Your day is not my day and my business is not like your business.
peace -
peace
O you who believe, werever the prayers are called to on the holy day Friday, then run quickly towards Gods rememberance, and leave the doing buisness. That is best for you, if you are able. So, whenever the prayers are finished, then disperse in the land; and desire from Gods blessing. And mention God much, you might be succesful.
Bring proofs that the time of friday prayer is at noon. How do you know that we are not to congregate during the dawn or/and evening prayer times. Why because it says leave the selling? As we all no, trading is being done 24/7 ( during dawn and evening times.) Or are we only allowed to do buisness in the daytime? And then do we all haev to go to bed at night ( lights out everyone on the earth! Time for bed. ) ?
peace
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Salaaman Wallace,
peace all ,
Juma will be held during the dawn and evening prayer service untill further notice.
Bring proof that we are to pray friday at noon. Buisnesses run 24/7 ( i.g. durning the dawn and evening time.)
You are asking for proof brother without giving proof for your claim? Its totally unfair.
Businesses run 24/7? Whose businesses? What are you talking about? Did Allah ask to do so? No! I am talking about AlQuraan and the rules of Allah made for us and you are talking about those who even don't believe in Allah? .
Example " most of the time I have to caese my selling and put people on hold untill i finish salatin in the eving and somtiemes even during the dawn hours."
This is nothing new. Or did everyone only work during the day in the past and then everyone on the entire earth would go to sleep at night and no one worked during the nights or evening ect...? o
peace
Oh yes, indeed!
2458 O YOU who have attained to faith! At three times, let those whom you rightfully pos?sess, as well as those from among you who have not yet attained to puberty, ask leave of you before the prayer of daybreak, and whenever you lay aside your garments in the middle of the day, and after the prayer of nightfall the three occasions on which your nakedness is likely to be bared. Beyond these, neither you nor they will incur any sin if they move about you, attending to one another. In this way God makes clear unto you His mes?sages for God is all-knowing, wise!
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo liyastathinkumu allatheena malakat aymanukum waallatheena lam yablughoo alhuluma minkum thalatha marratin min qabli salati alfajri waheena tadaAAoona thiyabakum mina alththaheerati wamin baAAdi salati alAAishai thalathu AAawratin lakum laysa AAalaykum wala AAalayhim junahun baAAdahunna tawwafoona AAalaykum baAAdukum AAala baAAdin kathalika yubayyinu Allahu lakumu alayati waAllahu AAaleemun hakeemun
(245
If you can see carefully in the 2458, time after Salaat Al Eshaan is the time for bed, not for bayee. It is very clear because Allah said "In this way God makes clear unto you His mes?sages for God is all-knowing, wise!" 2458
Right?
May Allah guide us all towards the path that He has chosen for us.
Regards,
mmKhan
