why do we have to believe?
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Farida and aalmakto if you like to see it that way.. i understand your thoughts now... you guys are well aware of it... i think i didn't label any of you as "misguided".... if i did please accept my apology.... for proofs i don't need to prove anything... it's just good as it is... you guys don't need my advice... i'm just sharing what i know... it's not my great mission or anything related.... and my arguments are becoming repetitive already because for me it's simple... God is somehow closer within and the hearts connects it... before my ego tainted my thoughts i better stop.. eat..... if it's already known to you it's ok by me.. no hard feelings ya? ;D ;D group group
*p/s i may i gave in the temptation again to reply your posts if it's interesting.... lol... sorry i'm just human....
Peace
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Farida and aalmakto if you like to see it that way.. i understand your thoughts now... you guys are well aware of it... i think i didn't label any of you as "misguided".... if i did please accept my apology.... for proofs i don't need to prove anything... it's just good as it is... you guys don't need my advice... i'm just sharing what i know... it's not my great mission or anything related.... and my arguments are becoming repetitive already because for me it's simple... God is somehow closer within and the hearts connects it... before my ego tainted my thoughts i better stop.. eat..... if it's already known to you it's ok by me.. no hard feelings ya? ;D ;D group group
*p/s i may i gave in the temptation again to reply your posts if it's interesting.... lol... sorry i'm just human....
Peace
No hard feelings Fadhli. group
4514 Say to those who believed to forgive those who do not look forward to the days of God. He will fully recompense people for whatever they have earned.
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this is sort of linked to my what does God get out of it question...
Why is "shirk" the unforgiveable sin while anything else can be forgiven? It is not harming anyone else?
And why do we have to believe? God always talks about almumineen/muslimeen/ahl alkitab as those who will know no fear while the mushrikeen/kuffar are the ones who will be hell-bound - if you are an atheist but a good person where does that leave you?thanks all!
salam , i have not read all the posts, so i will try to answer best i can ,
everyone keeps talking about repenting, when does repenting begin at birth at childhood or as an adult.the answer is from the moment we are born because the fact that we are in this world proves in itself that we have sinned. but what was the sin, when adam and eve ate from the apple was that the sin.....some ppl might say yes. no it was not, they sinned when they allowed themselves to listen to other then god,in other words they put satins word obove god himself, that in itself is shirk,that is the sin. if people can understand the concept of that very sin, then life would be very simple, you look at the quran, what is the quran, it is a book, a history book, its talks of future, the past, it teachs discepline and manners, it teaches personalities and mentalities, its science it math, it is everything you can possibly need to live a perfect life becuase the quran is perfection.and with all that knowledge in that book, the main idea, to beleive in god alone, with everything that we learn from it, from all the stories to all the messengers to prophets and in the end the whole idea behind the book, is not to do what adam and eve did in the beginning. to put someone or even something above god.
if you do shirk you are right you are not harming anyone accept one and that would be yourself. i will not stand with you when we stand infront of god you will be alone and so will each and everyone of us ,but this time there is no repentance you had that chance, this time there is no choices, and when you stand infront of him who will help you. he is our creator he is our love he is th heartbeat and he is the breath he is in every cell that moves in your body. and he will love you like no other he has given us riches beyond what we deserve we walk and we can speak and most important we can think. so use the mind he gave you to find your way to him. i do not care from what sect or religion people come from in the end whatever truth we think we know. if it includes anyone other then god. then he knows not what truth is.
god bless us all -
God created us in His image so we can come into a relationship with Him. Yes if an athiest dies without asking forgivness in Jesus and having rejected Jesus and the Father they will die in their sins, and will be going to hell. Forgivness comes form God through His Son. People who know about God but choice to live a life seperate from Him God will honour that request and send you to hell where there is seperation from God. If you did not want to live your life with Him on earth you will not live with Him in Heaven. simple.
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Surely not, if Hell is separate from God, that would mean that God was not all-powerful and all-embracing. God must be everywhere, nowhere is separate from God.
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you sound deceived. Hell is very real. I will not add anymore then that.
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I didn't say hell isn't real. I said hell is not separation from God's power, because God's power permeates everything.
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hell is not a place God resides. common sence
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Why, do you think God's afraid of hell? Nothing can exist without God. If God ceased to reside in a place, that place would cease to exist. And God is not afraid of anything, he created everything.
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demons are in hell and satan and God cannot live together. Light cannot live in darkness. and God is light. God created hell for satan and his angels but anyone who dies without Jesus will go there. It is not God's disire for anyone to perish bt come to repentance through His Son Jesus and hell is not a party place. God's Home is Heaven not hell. God is on His Throne in Heaven. what don't you understand about that? God created hell for satan and his angels but so many souls die and go there everyday for rejecting or turning away from Jesus. but I am not responsible for your salvation, if you end up in hell that is not my fault but rememeber you have been told. and you will remember this conversation in hell. I do not want you to go there but you have a choice and I am not going to make if for you.
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But the Gospel of John says "The light shines upon the darkness but the darkness does not recognise it". Surely this means that darkness and light do coexist. Otherwise the light would not be shining on it.
I don't think you have any biblical basis at all for your claim that hell is the absence of God. You're taking the ideas of various philosophers and theologians and mixing them up with Gospel.
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demons are in hell and satan and God cannot live together. Light cannot live in darkness. and God is light. God created hell for satan and his angels but anyone who dies without Jesus will go there. It is not God's disire for anyone to perish bt come to repentance through His Son Jesus and hell is not a party place. God's Home is Heaven not hell. God is on His Throne in Heaven. what don't you understand about that? God created hell for satan and his angels but so many souls die and go there everyday for rejecting or turning away from Jesus. but I am not responsible for your salvation, if you end up in hell that is not my fault but rememeber you have been told. and you will remember this conversation in hell. I do not want you to go there but you have a choice and I am not going to make if for you.
so you're saying that Moses and Abraham are in hell?! (God forbid)
peace
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Um... I know quite a few moral/charitable/Godly atheists.
the old belief that atheists are all deviant and evil is just plain wrong. in this age of reason and science, some just do not see the proof there for God.
this is something I hated too, when I was a young boy. "If God is all loving and I can find no adequate proof for his existence, yet I am a exemplary person of honor and morality par excellence... I am still going to hell.. may as well believe in him..better than the fire."
this is the old mentality too which involves punitive justice as opposed to restorative. My celtic ancestors believed instead of forcing a physical discipline or injury on someone for say stealing.. they would put them to work as a bondservant to the one stolen from until the value of the item stolen was earned back. I see islam saying the same thing.
yet.. think about it for a second.. An all loving and knowing God would toss into hell a mother theresa (who happened to just be atheist) and yet some repeatedly stumbling and mean person to others but believed in God would get paradise. Things like this wreak of human morality and not what I would more think with an omnipotent deity.
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^^
Exactly.
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Um... I know quite a few moral/charitable/Godly atheists.
the old belief that atheists are all deviant and evil is just plain wrong. in this age of reason and science, some just do not see the proof there for God.
this is something I hated too, when I was a young boy. "If God is all loving and I can find no adequate proof for his existence, yet I am a exemplary person of honor and morality par excellence... I am still going to hell.. may as well believe in him..better than the fire."
this is the old mentality too which involves punitive justice as opposed to restorative. My celtic ancestors believed instead of forcing a physical discipline or injury on someone for say stealing.. they would put them to work as a bondservant to the one stolen from until the value of the item stolen was earned back. I see islam saying the same thing.
yet.. think about it for a second.. An all loving and knowing God would toss into hell a mother theresa (who happened to just be atheist) and yet some repeatedly stumbling and mean person to others but believed in God would get paradise. Things like this wreak of human morality and not what I would more think with an omnipotent deity.
I totally agree with you. If you believe God is our Father (and mother) and creator, then you have to believe that God is all knowing and all seeing. If that is the case, God will judge people on what they do, not what they believe. If you are Baptist, then you believe only Baptists go to heaven, if you are JW then you believe only JWs go to heaven, etc, etc. This is just their way of keeping their members loyal to that one religion. God does not have a religion, God does not hate, God loves atheists too.
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The word originally mentioned in the opening post was "kufur" which principally means ungrateful, and concealment, and then the more well known meanings of rejecting and non-believer.
Why is "shirk" the unforgiveable sin while anything else can be forgiven? It is not harming anyone else?
And why do we have to believe? God always talks about almumineen/muslimeen/ahl alkitab as those who will know no fear while the mushrikeen/kuffar are the ones who will be hell-bound - if you are an atheist but a good person where does that leave you?If this question comes up in conversation, I often say "If you were in need and I gave you some food, would you say thanks?" If they say "yes", I then explain this implies they are being grateful and not ungrateful, this means they acknowledge rather than conceal/deny, accept rather than reject. I then say "In my view, that's the key to this life and if you understand that point, then you're half way there".
Of course, people show thanks in many ways, verbal is just one form. My understanding and preference can be found here.
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Salaam,
I read that thread, and in it, I found your concern for what I can only assume to be your patients (since you are a clinician) to be admirable and noteworthy. However, I strongly disagree with your conclusion "...they were a necessary link in the chain leading to Him, by doing good, reducing the injustices/poverty/negativity/etc and trying to better myself through their betterment would allow me to uplift myself at the same time, and maybe that is why God put them there..." As someone who has gone through tough times, and as someone who sympathizes greatly with those who suffer, I find it offensive that you can even consider that God would "put them there" in that condition (which I assume to be quite bad) for the betterment of others, such as yourself.
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JW,
Firstly, I was not referring to my patients specifically. Please do not assume unless it is clear. Secondly, I didn't really conclude anything, hence word usage such as "maybe". Thirdly, when I said "and maybe that is why God put them there" I was referring to those situations that require bettering, and this encompasses a huge variety of things, some of which directly involves people, some of which does not. I was not implying that their (I assume you mean people) sole purpose of being there was to better others. To be fair, I could have clarified this point but to be honest I wasn't expecting someone to take it the way you did. I was referring to the relationship or the connection between an individual's internal situation and their external situation. The link between the two, leading back to the opening post of the thread, i.e. to serve the whole = serving the God.
However, having said that, in part, "bad" things exist, as a means to test/distinguish us, according to AQ. One could say the same about "good" things however.
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Why is "shirk" the unforgiveable sin while anything else can be forgiven? It is not harming anyone else?
And why do we have to believe? God always talks about almumineen/muslimeen/ahl alkitab as those who will know no fear while the mushrikeen/kuffar are the ones who will be hell-bound - if you are an atheist but a good person where does that leave you?You would be showing ingratitude towards God.
3040 God who created you, then He provided for you, then He puts you to death, then He brings you to life. Is there any among the partners you set up that can do any of this? Be He glorified and exalted above what they set up.
3045 So that He will reward those who acknowledge and do good works from His grace. He does not love the ingrates.
2266 He is the One who granted you life, then He puts you to death, then He brings you back to life. Surely, the human being is unappreciative.
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Salaam farida
Actually this is from my post and alan is quoting me.
God never asked us to believe in His existance. In fact, the expression "existance" does not even exist in the qur'aan. How can one believe in the "existance" of God when we do not know what God is? That's why the old and still going on ddebate of whether God exists or not is still not won, and wont be one, by any one side. We only know His attributes, of which are "The Peace", "The Justice"; "The safety bestower"...etc If you study the straight path, which is the core of the message, it's all aiming at speading safety in the world through charity, justice and support of truth. It does not contain "believing in God" either, but not to set partners...not to follow commands other than those of God.
The qur'aan says it contains all examples. Do we have an example of a good, peaceful and charitable "non believer"? No of course, because a non believer is by definition a "non peaceful, non safety bestower".
I really enjoyed this post of Samia's and would like to discuss it further. Its theme is similar to FearfulofAllah's article 'Categories of People in the Quran' (http//www.free-minds.org/mumin2). In that article, FearfulofAllah states ?belief in god? as ?the conscious act of doing good, out of unselfish motives, even if it is at a personal cost?.
He further clarifies One may be publicly an atheist and reject completely the notion of any supernatural power but if that person consciously does good acts as a matter of principle in life, then for the sake of this discussion, that person will be considered as having ?belief in god?. By this definition, the opposite is also true that a person, who normally does only bad things, lacks ?belief in god?, even if that person claims to believe in god.
Samia seems to be implying the same thing (if I'm understanding her correctly).
In response to Samia's post, aalamakto posted the following
Salam Samia,
18103 Say ?Shall we inform you of the greatest losers??
18104 ?Those whose efforts in the worldly life were wasted while they thought they were doing good!?
18105 These are the ones who rejected the revelations of their Lord and His meeting. So their works were in vain, and We will not give them any value on the Day of Resurrection.
18106 That is their recompense, Hell; for what they rejected and for taking My revelations and My messengers for mockery!5646 And they persisted in the great blasphemy.
5647 And they used to say ?After we die and turn to dust and bones, we will get resurrected??
5648 ?As well as our forefathers??Works do not matter if they reject the revelations of God and his meeting.
What are everyone's thoughts on this response? Is 'belief in God's existence' actually prescribed upon us, or at least implied? Is 'belief in god' simply 'belief in doing good,' in a way that a staunch atheist can still have 'belief in god' ? If so, what of the verses aalamakto posted?
Peace.
