Number of wives?
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Yatama does not mean 'orphan'...misinterpretation
yateem means 'orphan'
Wayastaftoonaka fee alnnisai quli Allahu yufteekum feehinna wa ma yutla AAalaykum fee alkitabi fee yatama alnnisai allatee la tutoonahunna ma kutiba lahunna watarghaboona an tankihoohunna waalmustadAAafeena mina alwildani waan taqoomoo lilyatama bialqisti wama tafAAaloo min khayrin fainna Allaha kana bihi AAaleeman
hmm...'orphan women'?
salam,
i would just like to say that this post is not of my own words, this belongs to a friend of mine from another forum and hes actually the one who introduced me to this forum,i have edited out very little of it, this is concerning......well, you read... of course i agree with him, both him and i coming from an arabic backgroundFirst
The Quran , in the original Arabic text, does NOT use the word "female" . There is no "female" anywhere in the text of verse 4127.Here is the text in Arabic
The word . (Nisa'a). This word means "WOMEN", not "females". For your info, the Arabic word for "female" is . "Untha".
The opposite of "untha" is "zhakar"
Hence
"untah" = female
"zhakar" = male.While
"nisa'a" = women
"rijal" = menNow you will ask of course So what? What is the diference between "untha" and "nisa'a"? Are they not synonymous?
NO, they are NOT synonymous. Anyone who claims they are synonymous is
1- Ignorant in Arabic.
2- Unaware of the Quran's precision
3- Corrupting the message.Even in English, FEMALE and WOMAN are not necessarily the same. To rephrase that Every woman is a female. But not every female is a woman.
A female could be a dog, sheep, horse, plant, or a three-year old child.
A woman is a grown adult human, passed the age of orphanageIf you can't see this difference, and stubbornly insist on ignoring it, then stop reading further. God is precise in using His words. Your scholars are apparently incapable of grasping this accuracy.
When Mr. Shakir and Mr. Pickthal used the word "females" in their translation of verse 4127, they ended up corrupting the text. (Wether intentionally or unintentionally, only God can tell, and I' not in a position to judge).
They should have used the word "WOMEN".
Second
A WOMAN, ( ة is a grown-up adult. There is no such thing as an ORPHAN WOMAN.
Have you ever heard of an ORPHAN MAN...?
When Pickthal translated the verse as such { Say Allah makes known to you His decision concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book concerning female orphans whom you do not give what is appointed for them while you desire to marry them}
He not only corrupted the text (which mentions WOMEN not females), but also condoned pedophilia.
How in God's name do you marry an orphan?! Open your eyes man, for God's sake!!! An orphan is a child!
How can you be so blind?In Arabic, an orphan = a child who has lost his father.
The Quran is talking about marrying the WOMEN WHO ARE THE MOTHERS OF THE ORPHANS!!!! not the orphans themselves!!.
The phrase (The orphans OF women meaning the orphans belonging to the women) does NOT mean (orphan women). There's no such thing as an "orphan women" to begin with (woman = grown up past the age of orphanage).
The correct translation of 4127 is
{And they seek a ruling regarding the women, say ?God will give you a ruling regarding them and what is being recited to you in the Scripture regarding the orphans of women whom you wish to marry, but have not given them (the women) what was decreed for them; as well as the weak from the children That you stand for the orphans in equality.? Whatever good you do, then God is aware of it.}.
It is giving a license to men to marry the mothers of orphans (meaning marry the widows, in order to properly take care of their orphan children). God is exempting these men from paying the dowry.
So tell me,...who is "twisting" and "manipulating" now?
I defy anyone on this forum who speaks Arabic to debate with me, face to face, and prove me wrong. Let him step forward now. I challenge him.
I want someone who understands Arabic grammar and vocabulary. Not someone who blindly follows corrupt translations without being able to verify the original Arabic text.Your "traditional" interpretations are corrupt, ignorant in Arabic, and endorse pedophilia.
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Peace Anna,
Very good post this last one of yours(and your friend).
Maria
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Thank you Anna for posting that albeit the fact that it did come out rather harshly. I will ignore that, considering they were not of your own words. I am not an Arabic speaker as you may have already determined yourself. Although I am trying to learn and study the Quran just like everyone else is. So do try to exercise patience and understanding towards one another. You should feel blessed for being able to understand the Arabic language.
As I mentioned before, I put the word orphans in quotation marks for lack of understanding of the definition "yatama alnnisai." Now that you have clarified the meaning of "yatama alnnisai," it is obvious that men are limited to marrying mother's of orphans. Do you see this happening in the muslim society today? Let me see a show of hands of men who are willing to marry widowed women with children from war torn countries in Africa, Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine. I personally don't think widowed women in developed countries fall under the same category considering government assistance (welfare) is easy to come by these days.
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The correct translation of 4127 is
{And they seek a ruling regarding the women, say ?God will give you a ruling regarding them and what is being recited to you in the Scripture regarding the orphans of women whom you wish to marry, but have not given them (the women) what was decreed for them; as well as the weak from the children That you stand for the orphans in equality.? Whatever good you do, then God is aware of it.}.
It is giving a license to men to marry the mothers of orphans (meaning marry the widows, in order to properly take care of their orphan children). God is exempting these men from paying the dowry.
Salaam anna
Then what was this about?why dont you wake up from your dream world and wake up to reality, all those broken homes or those phycological problems. they are casue becuase of what faith they do not have, you think god does not know what hes talking about .you know how many women divorce becasue there husbands cheat on them do you know how many broken homes and lost children because the men no longer are in love with there wives. thats reality. but if men were allowed to marry again even in the western society, life would be much simpler then what it is today, but then im dreaming because in order to ahve that people would have to have a great deal of faith and that unfortunatley we dont have, yes i am a female and even though i am divorced now, i was married once and i was hoping my ex husband would marry my friend for reasons or other. by the wway whats the count on men and women int his world wasnit it something like 7 to 1 or am i mistaken.
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Thank you Anna for posting that albeit the fact that it did come out rather harshly. I will ignore that, considering they were not of your own words. I am not an Arabic speaker as you may have already determined yourself. Although I am trying to learn and study the Quran just like everyone else is. So do try to exercise patience and understanding towards one another. You should feel blessed for being able to understand the Arabic language.
As I mentioned before, I put the word orphans in quotation marks for lack of understanding of the definition "yatama alnnisai." Now that you have clarified the meaning of "yatama alnnisai," it is obvious that men are limited to marrying mother's of orphans. Do you see this happening in the muslim society today? Let me see a show of hands of men who are willing to marry widowed women with children from war torn countries in Africa, Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine. I personally don't think widowed women in developed countries fall under the same category considering government assistance (welfare) is easy to come by these days.
salam
again, I put that post up as to clarify the meaning of "yatama lnasa2" and i personally agree with that translation, and im sorry i know it seemed harsh but dont forget i got it from another forum and the person he was speaking to was pretty harsh himself in any case, i agree with you that men are not taking the responsibilty for materialistic reasons,and that why i say they have to get to closer to god to understand the reasons behind the idea of multiple marriages. -
Assalaam Alaikum @anna
Excellent clarification. Your 'conviction' was evident from your text and sincerity. Being 'firm' and 'cogent' is NOT 'harsh'.
The truth is very hard at times to accept.
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Anna, please don't use the phrase "men" here. I am a man, and I recent when women say "men this men that".
What you really should be using, is the phrase infidel.I didn't read the whole thread. Did you cover this?
Multiple marriages, are usually reserved the wealthy. A big property and household needs to be looked after. And it logically follows, that having several wifes, would be fitting.
Waw, I thought it was 2008.
(checks time machine)
Yep - you're in the wrong century, not me. peace
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Asalaam Alaikum @Fahad
Lets clarify the topic and focus....
Wain khiftum alla tuqsitoo fee alyatama fa Conjunctive particle VERBAL SENTENCE >>> inkihoo ADVERBAL MODIFIERS >>> MA TABA lakum minna <<< GENITIVE >>> alnnisai ADJECTIVES >>> mathna wathulatha warubaAAa <<< fain khiftum alla taAAdiloo fa Another Conjunctive particle ADJECTIVE Subject (Al Nisa) >>>> wahidatan <<< aw ma malakat aymanukum thalika adna alla taAAooloo
*Conjunctive particle begins a sentence; successive order
Wa-ith taqoolu lillathee anAAama Allahu AAalayhi waanAAamta AAalayhi amsik AAalayka zawjaka waittaqi Allaha watukhfee fee nafsika ma Allahu mubdeehi watakhsha alnnasa waAllahu ahaqqu an takhshahu fa lamma qada zaydun minha wataran zawwaj nakaha li-kaa (for YOU) la yakoona AAala almu/mineena harajun fee itha qadaw have ended minhunna wataran wakana amru Allahi mafAAoolan
Assalaam Alaikum @Fahad,
A person named 'Zaid' is not mentioned in this ayah. I believe that has been shown the word is a verb 'zaydun' is not a noun.
Secondly, there is no reference to 'adopted son(s)' 'ad-AAi-ya-i-him' / Verb Form IV, does not mean 'adopted son' its also a verb which has various meanings 'take legal action against, institute legal proceedings against, pretense, allegation, litigation, prosecution, suit, lawsuit, arrogance, self-importance, vanity, etc.'
In the context of this portion of Sura Al Ahzab 3337....
'la yakoona AAala almu/mineena harajun / oppressed, disquieted in (heart& mind) fee Genitive itha / when qadaw / have ended or dissolved minhunna / from them (females) wataran '
Seems Allah is reassuring the Believer, that they should not be depressed and sorrowful regarding any qadaw / decree or judgment relating to there respective mates.
This is my cursory perception, you or anyone else may have something different.
Lets share and learn.
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In 33/4, to translate 'ad'iyaakum' as 'instituting legal proceeedings' would not make sense at all. It would read 'Allah did not make take legal proceedings your sons'.
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'sons' is NOT in the ayah, thats your interpretation. Besides we are discussing 33.37 NOT 33.4
'azwaji adAAiya-ihim' / is in the Genitive Thus the translation would relate to 'legal proceedings with your mates' 'or 'allegations,claim' or some type of mediation between azwaj / mates that requires a qadaw / judgement, resolution or decree (i.e. divorce)
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MTR'sons' is NOT in the ayah, thats your interpretation
Oh ? How would you translate 'abnaakum' then ? 'your buildings' ??
MTR Besides we are discussing 33.37 NOT 33.4
Oh sorry, I thought the Quran explains itself by repeating verses. I guess not....hadith, anyone?
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For the sake of duplication and brevity, please refer to page #2 from this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597268.15
Couple posts in..Yatama is defined with references and Yateem
yatama sole, unmatched, single, lonely, jaded, one without parents; Root word atamm means more complete, more perfect, perfectly prepared, totally ready; Root word Tamm meaning consummate, of full value, self contained, needing no completion; Root word Tamma means to or become complete, completed, finished, done, to be performed, be accomplished, to come to an end;
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. page 117-118 (tamma)"one without parents" - would technically become "orphan" + plural = "orphans", no?
Yatama is recognized as plural of yateem according to Lane's Lexicon, Volume 8, page 317.
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yatama sole, unmatched, single, lonely, jaded, one without parents; Root word atamm means more complete, more perfect, perfectly prepared, totally ready; Root word Tamm meaning consummate, of full value, self contained, needing no completion; Root word Tamma means to or become complete, completed, finished, done, to be performed, be accomplished, to come to an end;
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. page 117-118 (tamma)"one without parents" - would technically become "orphan" + plural = "orphans", no?
Yatama is recognized as plural of yateem according to Lane's Lexicon, Volume 8, page 317.
Assalaam Alaikum @Far
Its 'Al Yatama' /
with...
?Al? (adataatarif) is a Definite Article , used to give the meaning of ?Most, All, Complete, Maximum, Whole, and to denote comprehensiveness, all aspects or categories of a subject, or to denote perfection and includes all degrees and grades. INCLUSIVE and NON Exclusive, ALL Meanings of the root.
Besides, we dont marry orphans, as stated in a previous post, that would imply pedophilia is supported by the Quran.
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salam muslimtruthrevealed. i am shocked to see the repeated nonsensical posts that you have made.
you claim
Besides, we dont marry orphans, as stated in a previous post, that would imply pedophilia is supported by the Quran
this comment by you angers any decent muslim, including myself. how dare you put your garbage of pedophilia near the quran. this putting pedophilia near islam is a very common practice of pagans, which implies you are a pagan.
the term orphan has nothing to do with the age of a person. there are adult orphan women who wish to be married, you must be beyond ignorant not to know this. the term alyatama is a category of persons. yateem are those individuals who are in the category of alyatama. the issue is categories of persons, not singular or plural. you debate like a jahil.
allah is the truth.
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Assalaam Alaikum @Far
Its 'Al Yatama' /
with...
Al (adataatarif) is a Definite Article , used to give the meaning of Most, All, Complete, Maximum, Whole, and to denote comprehensiveness, all aspects or categories of a subject, or to denote perfection and includes all degrees and grades. INCLUSIVE and NON Exclusive, ALL Meanings of the root.
Besides, we dont marry orphans, as stated in a previous post, that would imply pedophilia is supported by the Quran.
Quran 46
Marrying women up to 4, would specifically apply to the extra stock of women in a community, no? Especially those who do not have male support, specifically those women who do not have fathers, no?
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Quran 46
Marrying women up to 4, would specifically apply to the extra stock of women in a community, no? Especially those who do not have male support, specifically those women who do not have fathers, no?
Assalaam Alaikum @Far
The Quran is NOT suggesting Men can marry up to 4 wives. All the 'analogies' in the world will not change the meaning and context of Sura 43.
Women are NOT 'orphans' nor are they referred to or expected to be 'extra stock'.
yatama sole, unmatched, single, lonely, jaded, one without parents; Root word atamm means more complete, more perfect, perfectly prepared, totally ready; Root word Tamm meaning consummate, of full value, self contained, needing no completion; Root word Tamma means to or become complete, completed, finished, done, to be performed, be accomplished, to come to an end;
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. page 117-118 (tamma)The context of the ayah is 'Marriage' to Women......who are independent, prepared and ready for marriage
Wain khiftum alla tuqsitoo fee alyatama fa VERBAL SENTENCE >>> inkihoo ADVERBAL MODIFIERS >>> MA TABA lakum minna <<< GENITIVE >>> alnnisai ADJECTIVES >>> mathna wathulatha warubaAAa <<< fain khiftum alla taAAdiloo fa ADJECTIVE Subject (Al Nisa) >>>> wahidatan <<< aw ma malakat aymanukum thalika adna alla taAAooloo
Secondly the ayah is indicating to Men....NOT to violate the blessing of marriage by marrying 2,3 & 4 Times NOT wives
It is Ma = NOT Taba = good/lawful Lakum =TO/For YOU to be given the Minna = favor/gift/blessing/benefit of Al Nisai = (get married to) Women Mathna = 2, Thulatha = 3, and Rubaa = 4 TIMES
Then the ayah continues......
Fain = Therefore Khiftum = If you fear Alla = that you will fall short of your duty and obligation in marriage taAAdiloo = to act justly Fa = conjunctive particle ADJECTIVE of Subject (An-Nisa) wahidatan = Then Marry ONE TIME indefinitely (NOT 2, 3 and 4 TIMES)
Lastly....
Aw (denotes time & transition) = wait UNTIL Malakat = you can take a wife Aymanukum = You are faithful, You feel trustworthy & You are secure
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Salam-un-Alaikum 2 Muslimtruthrevealed
2234 Those among you who die and leave "wives" behind.............. "Clear plural used here" Azwajan
1338 And verily We sent Messengers before you, and We appointed for them "wives" and children as well.There are other places where word "Wives" is mentioned but mostly are concerning with Prophet himself or other prophets, like Lot's story, etc.
please clarify if you wish so, it would seem hypocritical to allow messenger this privilege and not the believers.
ThanX