hadith
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Peace WayFinder,
Welcome to the forum welcome
I have become a big fan of yours. ) God has given you good insight and understanding.
Keep up the good work and may God bless you and reward you for your efforts.
May God guide us all to the truth and the straight path.
Peace brother
Thank you very much for your support.... Infact going through the Quran is a very enlightening experience... In the past, I was using all other books except the Quran... they were supposed to be shortcuts to the Quran but infact, they were just opinion of the authors according to their understanding and doctrine.... However, I thank Allah for the change in my views and now I feel really happy to read and study the Quran... Its a wonderful experience and I hope many muslims are enjoying the same as many people are returning back to the source which is Al-Quran...
God bless...
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Peace Brother....
In the same way HE inspired his messenger how to take care of his message.
Can you be more clear on this brother? What do you mean by taking care of his message? I already outlined in my previous post one of the main tool that the Messenger used to secure the message is to get them written down... Do you imply that the prophet got some extra commands from Allah which is not in the Quran and is found in other books? Please clarify on this...
I'm not defending it ... u haven't been following me.
The only difference between u and me is that I find it my responsibility to try to fix as much as I can ...
And I believe this is a duty for every koran aloner ... It's good to argue, and it's not bad to compromise (and please do not
compare our case to the prophet's, he was dealing with stone worshippers and we r dealing with submitters who believe in the one GOD),
and I'm seeking what could be the best behavior with others.As for my responsibility... Its like this...
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And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).The truth is already established for me and I have no doubt on it... So my duty towards all people is in the above verse... I cannot try to FIX falsehood... Falsehood should be wiped off and replaced with truth...There is no negotiation on the truth...
2174 Those who conceal Allah's revelations in the Book, and purchase for them a miserable profit,- they swallow into themselves naught but Fire; Allah will not address them on the Day of Resurrection. Nor purify them Grievous will be their penalty.
I am not after a miserable profit Alhamdoulillah...
About not comparing to the prophet...
How can we not take the prophet example into consideration when we are commanded to take him as the best example
3321 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
Be it stone worshipper, peer worshipper, animal worshipper or whatever else... Shirk is shirk... Taking other laws and claiming it is from Allah is BIG shirk... example of this is the stoning of adulterers... Also, who said that the Meccans were worshipping idols... According to historians, they were worshipping Allah but these idols represented Allah's son and daughters like Manat,Lat and Uzza.... So they were thinking that passing through them, their prayers will reach Allah, these idols were mere intermediaries... they knew that the only one God was Allah but were worshipping others together with Him...
Not all idolators were worshipping stones and statues... Take the Christians for example, they were worshipping Jesus instead of Allah... They do not worship the statue of Jesus, but they worship Jesus himself who they claim is alive in Heaven and is the God....
The messenger's message were to all these people, the pure stone/sun/fire worshipper as well as those who worship Allah as well as others beside him...
To sum this up... An idolator is an idolator.. There is no level 1 idolator or level 2 idolator... No unnecessary argument on this... Allah's law is clear... No shirk with him...
In fact maybe not lot of people read the koran ... Myself I used to read it but I haven't lately ...
But I believe it's only lazyness, I mean I don't know where u live, but I have lived in the middle east for 20
years and I was born there, and I know all the habits of muslims (sunni and shia), and i don't think that
anybody try to find excuses for not reading the koran ... it's only lazyness ... and it's not a big deal ..
and the problem is not in reading the koran or not (although it is very important in order to understand it),
the problem is not following it.I agree its PARTLY laziness, but not only due to it... There are other factors also... Among the main ones, there are already too many textbooks which are intended to explain the Quran in your own language... SO people do no want to go through the process of learning Arabic to read and study the Quran... There are too many shortcuts to the Quran... THe imams,mullahs,muftis,Ulemas etc are the main ones... However most of these people have not studied the Quran themselves and have fallen into the trap of following hadiths and false interpretations... So at the end, you eventually end up with a Islam that has nothing to do with Al-Quran... Rules not taken from it etc... Check these verse regarding scholars and learnt men...
0934
O you who believe, many religious leaders and preachers take the people's money illicitly, and repel from the path of GOD. Those who hoard the gold and silver, and do not spend them in the cause of GOD, promise them a painful retribution.Ask yourself... What the majority of muslims are doing today? Is not is the same as the verse above.... People following their leaders rather than the Guide sent by Allah...
Here also in my country, we have shias and everything.. you will find all the muslim sects in most countries.. even in UK or america... So this is not an issue... I have seen grave worshippers, peer worshippers and so on... So I know what am talking about...
Nobody rejects any part of the Book, otherwise he won't be a muslim.
The truth is that some people simply ignore the Book, i mean they don't know what's in it
and they blindly follow what others (like imams) tell them about it.I totally agree with you... they cannot be called a muslim, but how many like this are claiming to be muslims?? Do you saying that when they will be judged by Allah, they will get out easily by saying that they do not know what is in the Quran?? Should we be blind followers of religious leaders? Most of these religious leaders are abusing the trust of the people and using them for their own benefit... They can only remain in their position by upholding the use of Hadith... Because preaching Quran alone will not allow them to do what they are currently doing...
Of course ur discussions will be victorious, but I think that u'r wise enough not to feel victorious ...
U should note that -and urself u always say it- GOD know best, and we might know nothing, so we should always
be openminded on everything, cose even if we live hundreds of years and we spend it searching for the truth,
the truth will always be fuzzy, except for one truth which is .... GOD.
I always feel happy when I hear somebody finding answers, cose i lived exactly the same experience, and i know
how it feels to see things clearer. So good luck, and may GOD guide us all to the straight path.Yes you are right... I am not claiming that I am a victor everywhere, but just mentioned it here to make you aware of my feeling and the power of Allah's words.... I have been able to follow only the Quran due to my open mindedness.. you have no idea of the past sects i belonged to... sunnis,tawheedi,salafis...and finally back to the source...
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Peace Brother....
Can you be more clear on this brother? What do you mean by taking care of his message? I already outlined in my previous post one of the main tool that the Messenger used to secure the message is to get them written down... Do you imply that the prophet got some extra commands from Allah which is not in the Quran and is found in other books? Please clarify on this...
There r no commands in this matter ... and it's not mentioned in any book ...
it's simply inspiration that he would take care of his message just like a mother takes care of her son ...
it's a natural behavior ... and there r no specific matters, it's the general behavior of the prophet that
allows me to say that he was taking care of his message ... an example is the previous hadith that ironically
another brother used to prove that hadiths shouldn't be written which is
Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171.....also Sahih Moslim )
This hadith which I consider wise and might be authentic could be a proof of the caring that the prophet showed
for his message.As for my responsibility... Its like this...
242
And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).
The truth is already established for me and I have no doubt on it... So my duty towards all people is in the above verse... I cannot try to FIX falsehood... Falsehood should be wiped off and replaced with truth...There is no negotiation on the truth...
2174 Those who conceal Allah's revelations in the Book, and purchase for them a miserable profit,- they swallow into themselves naught but Fire; Allah will not address them on the Day of Resurrection. Nor purify them Grievous will be their penalty.
I am not after a miserable profit Alhamdoulillah...well I am not covering the truth ... and i'm not trying to fix falsehood, I'm simply trying to unite brother, and
I assure to u that I'm doing it by the good ways not by disobeying GOD, cose falsehood to u might not be the same for me.
And afterall if i'm after miserable profit I will be judged for that, and if I'm not, those who argue with me so that my efforts
would be in vain they will be judged for that too.
I'm glad that u think truth is established to u, but with all my due respect the one who claims to know the truth is the biggest
ignorant ever, and the one who doesn't have doubts doesn't know how to search the truth.About not comparing to the prophet...
How can we not take the prophet example into consideration when we are commanded to take him as the best example
3321 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.I never said do not conduct like the prophet, I said that our circumstances r not the same,u can't compare the situations we r in to his,
again we r dealing with submitters and he was dealing with "kuffar"Be it stone worshipper, peer worshipper, animal worshipper or whatever else... Shirk is shirk... Taking other laws and claiming it is from Allah is BIG shirk... example of this is the stoning of adulterers... Also, who said that the Meccans were worshipping idols... According to historians, they were worshipping Allah but these idols represented Allah's son and daughters like Manat,Lat and Uzza.... So they were thinking that passing through them, their prayers will reach Allah, these idols were mere intermediaries... they knew that the only one God was Allah but were worshipping others together with Him...
Not all idolators were worshipping stones and statues... Take the Christians for example, they were worshipping Jesus instead of Allah... They do not worship the statue of Jesus, but they worship Jesus himself who they claim is alive in Heaven and is the God....
The messenger's message were to all these people, the pure stone/sun/fire worshipper as well as those who worship Allah as well as others beside him...
To sum this up... An idolator is an idolator.. There is no level 1 idolator or level 2 idolator... No unnecessary argument on this... Allah's law is clear... No shirk with him...All muslims worship GOD brother, they might be astrayed in some matters like dividing into sects and following laws
that does not exist in the koran, but they still believe in the one GOD.... they don't worship stone nor peer nor animal nor Jesus
nor Mohammad nor Ali, they r worshipping GOD.I totally agree with you... they cannot be called a muslim, but how many like this are claiming to be muslims??
No body is claiming to be muslims because they all r muslims ... A muslim is a man who believes in GOD and in the message of
Mohammad (the koran), and as they all do that and do not reject any part of the Book then they r muslims.I c we r not going anywhere in this, so this is gonna be my last reply to u with all my due respect ...
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Peace Brother
There r no commands in this matter ... and it's not mentioned in any book ...
it's simply inspiration that he would take care of his message just like a mother takes care of her son ...
it's a natural behavior ... and there r no specific matters, it's the general behavior of the prophet that
allows me to say that he was taking care of his message ... an example is the previous hadith that ironically
another brother used to prove that hadiths shouldn't be written which is
Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171.....also Sahih Moslim )
This hadith which I consider wise and might be authentic could be a proof of the caring that the prophet showed
for his message.If you want to take this hadith like an authentic one, then no problem for me... Its up to you... However, I already gave the verses in the previous posts... Allah is the Guardian of the Quran and the messenger followed Allah's commands and the Quran... So he already knew that the Quran will be preserved by Allah... It would not have been a problem for him to separate the scribes into 2 groups.. one for writing the Quran and the other for writing his hadith... Labelling the 2 books correctly... Since he did not do it... then it means that the only Guide he left was Al-Quran... So why brickwall on hadiths.... i really dont understand....
well I am not covering the truth ... and i'm not trying to fix falsehood, I'm simply trying to unite brother, and
I assure to u that I'm doing it by the good ways not by disobeying GOD, cose falsehood to u might not be the same for me.
And afterall if i'm after miserable profit I will be judged for that, and if I'm not, those who argue with me so that my efforts
would be in vain they will be judged for that too.
I'm glad that u think truth is established to u, but with all my due respect the one who claims to know the truth is the biggest
ignorant ever, and the one who doesn't have doubts doesn't know how to search the truth.You are not trying to fix falsehood but you are trying to find a common ground between falsehood and truth.... Allah made it clear, there is no common ground on this... Though, I am definitely not against dialogue and understanding to get people back to Al-Quran because Allah command us to use good words while preaching his book...
As for falsehood, I did not mean falsehood relative to you and me... but falsehood relative to the Quran and how Allah describe falsehood....
As for the truth, I have no doubt in Al Quran and for me its the truth... Allah told me in this book there is no doubts... So why should I be having doubts... I was having doubts before... when I was using other books beside Al Quran but not now alhamdoulillah... So if you still have doubt in the truth... You need to pursue your research and study...
However, pointing at me and calling me the biggest ignorant because I am following Allah's words is just weird.... But maybe this hadith is authentic too
'Islam started as something strange and will become something strange again at the end of times...' DI never said do not conduct like the prophet, I said that our circumstances r not the same,u can't compare the situations we r in to his,
again we r dealing with submitters and he was dealing with "kuffar"How can you call people submitters? Do you have your own rules for that? Because if you use Allah's criteria for defining a submitter... You will see that the majority is not in the fold of submitters as Allah define them...
As for the prophet... he was no dealing with only Kuffar... but there were the Ahl ul Kitab also on the scene...
All muslims worship GOD brother, they might be astrayed in some matters like dividing into sects and following laws
that does not exist in the koran, but they still believe in the one GOD.... they don't worship stone nor peer nor animal nor Jesus
nor Mohammad nor Ali, they r worshipping GOD.If in your version of Islam, people like this are called submitters... then Allah will be witness between me and you.... Maybe you need to assess your position again...
No body is claiming to be muslims because they all r muslims ... A muslim is a man who believes in GOD and in the message of
Mohammad (the koran), and as they all do that and do not reject any part of the Book then they r muslims.I c we r not going anywhere in this, so this is gonna be my last reply to u with all my due respect ...
Yes... you have that right... But most have rejected part of the book... Anyways, Allah is Ahkamoul Haakimeen... So he will be the one to judge...
I c we r not going anywhere in this, so this is gonna be my last reply to u with all my due respect ...
It has been a nice discussion brother.... Again, nothing personal... My one and only advice, read and STUDY the quran....
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Peace
like those which goal is to complete the koran and explain it, and to make the Islamic laws
(Shari'a) more detailed ?I think Wakas had a good answer which you may not have understood, and if you did understand it, you disagreed with it.
If they agree with the quran than it is clear the quran is the tool to determine the truthfulness of this or that hadeeth. I think if something is not in disagreement with the spirit of the quran it is okay to follow, but then you expand on this notion of the quran being the furqan/criterion between what is right and what is wrong by talking about the details. The quran is the sufficient guide for salvation and I know those who seek the details tend not to agree with the standard . Keep in mind the humbleness of the powers . So, keeping in line with your question, how do you now intend to verify the "details" which you derive from other ahadeeth if they cannot be supported with the quran? Can you want to use the quran to verify the truth of some ahadeeth and then not use it to verify the truth of other ahadeeth? Or is your argument that since the ahadeeth that exapand upon and detail the quran are extensions of quranic criteria, practice, law, and principle, there is no need to have the quran as a verifier in this instance?
Joe
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Peace
So, keeping in line with your question, how do you now intend to verify the "details" which you derive from other ahadeeth if they cannot be supported with the quran? Can you want to use the quran to verify the truth of some ahadeeth and then not use it to verify the truth of other ahadeeth?Peace joe,
I agree with u that there r ahadeeth that r supported with the quran ...
Concerning those that r in direct relation with the Book and discussing subjects presented in the quran,
I think u agree with me that they can be verified simply by not being in contradiction with the Book ...
Now concerning other ones that r not supported with the quran, that the quran does not mention
then I believe we can verify them by comparing to other subjects -of course only if those ahadeeth were
wisdom quotes and definitly not source of laws. Let me give u an example ...
Some of those ahadeeth's subjects that does not exist in the quran may cause ''fitna'' and dividing between submitters,
so comparing to the order of GOD to avoid fitna and dividing then those ahadeeth r "batel" fake unauthentic ...
And afterall i think we have enough wisdom to be able to verify every single hadeeth ...Or is your argument that since the ahadeeth that expand upon and detail the quran are extensions of quranic criteria, practice, law, and principle, there is no need to have the quran as a verifier in this instance?
Joe
There is always need of the quran to verify every single detail of life ...
And of course authentic ahadeeth r not extensions of quranic laws, cose they r human
and quranic laws r divine ... simply those ahadeeth r wisdom quotes of the prophet that
can be very profitable in life ...
And all over the quran, not a single verse prohibit profiting from the prophet's wisdom and
any other wisdom as long as it is delt with as human wisdom...Ali
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And we should also consider that even if GOD tell us not to believe in a speech other than the BOOK,
but still, believing in such hadiths -the authentic ones-but still,but still what, there is no but still if god says we should not then WE SHOULD NOT.
there are many ayat that proove to us that allahs 7adeeth is the only 7adeeth we should follow, end of storyan example is the previous hadith that ironically
another brother used to prove that hadiths SHOULDN'T BE written which is
Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171.....also Sahih Moslim )
This hadith which I consider wise and might be authentic could be a proof of the caring that the prophet showed
for his message.simple question, the fact that this very hadeeth IS written and DOES exist, doesnt that prove that they didnt even bother to obey the messenger himself...........
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Peace bro wisdom
I thought you were not coming back to the thread but thanks for coming... This is a good discussion if you focus on the thread positively... Do not feel guilty of anything... You brought an issue and we discuss it in a friendly manner... Then we can have all the time to focus of each points of the discussion and try to put an order in it... So welcome back...
You are saying that nowhere in the quran its forbidden to profit from the wisdom of the prophet ... I would like to get more information on this wisdom... can you give some examples please...
Thanks
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Peace wayfinder,
I actually said it was gonna be my last reply to u cose
we r going nowhere in the discussion, not the absolute last reply ....
I replied to Joe cose I found it's an important post ...
with all my due respectAli
Ok brother...
Got the point loud and clear... So, from now on, this thread will be read only for me giveup
Keep posting brother...
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Ok brother...
Got the point loud and clear... So, from now on, this thread will be read only for me giveup
Keep posting brother...
Who said that ??
Am i the only one posting here?? u can reply to others ..
and the reason behind what i said is that i don't have time for long posts and replies
i'm a student and i have lot of work to do ...
Simply u will never convince me and vice versa ...
so there is no need to continue the discussion
with all my due respectAli