What is the difference between "Nissa, Amraat and Azwaj"
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If so then ?rijalan wanisaan? in context of 4176 implies ?males and females? any age
One of the tall claims of Grand Quran is that this is Mubeen. It is written in Arabic which is said to have the distinction of being Mubeen. "rijalan" can't be taken as male of any age. rijalan has been used as 'fully grown up man' not any male of childhood, adolescence etc.
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What's the pattern for and why would the wau change into hamza? Why wouldn't stay as it does with niswa (e.g nisawin)?
Sister, It is complicated grammer issue for me. I remain confined to the words used in the Quran which I find quite evident and self explaining. I found at all 58 places of occurences as denoting women, plural. Please explain it for my knowledge.
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Thanks for partcipation. To start with, in 2-282 why is "Amrataan "used in contrast to Rijjal? It should have been Nissa, what could be the wisdom?{Siki}
"Amrataan " dual of two women, Nissa is for more than two women.
Assalaam Alaikum
First point, By you using the Free Minds Arabic 'translation in 'Modern Standard' Arabic, which is lacking the phonetic grammatical symbols (i.e. fatha, kesra, dammah, tarmubutah, tanwiin, etc.) in its 'translation' you dont get the true context and meaning of the words.
I dont recall seeing the use of the word 'Amrataan' in reference to 'two women' in Sura Baqarah 2.282.
I see the word 'Imraatani' /
imraatani man or woman, person, human being, one who thinks or considers; Root word marra means to scan, examine, peruse, pass in review
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. Page 1056 (marra) page 1058 (mara?a)@Mazhar Lastly, your reference '"Amrataan " dual of two women" is incorrect. The arabic transliteration should read 'Amratun' NOT 'Amraatan'.
Nor do I see in Sura Baqarah 2282 its in Sura Nisa 4128
If either of these forms actually existed 'Amratu' would NOT be 'dual' it would be singular in 3rd person and 'Amraatan' would suggest a 'tanwiin' which would denote plural and indefinite.
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Sister, It is complicated grammer issue for me. I remain confined to the words used in the Quran which I find quite evident and self explaining. I found at all 58 places of occurences as denoting women, plural. Please explain it for my knowledge.
This is morphology (sarf) not grammar.
Of the 58 places can you explain the following
44 Where in the qur'aan do we find the "sadaqa" be given to women? Who is addressed in this verse? Is it for men only?
4127 The verse further explains what "nisaa" is composed of.
4911 Aren't nisaa' included in "qawm" already?
361 "ta3aluu" doesn't this verbal noun include women ? Why are "nisaa'" mentioned again?
2431 Who can be "nisaa'uhunna"? Who is "my woman"?
434 Is this a command or a statement that "men are qawwamuuna ala women"? Which men? -
One of the tall claims of Grand Quran is that this is Mubeen. It is written in Arabic which is said to have the distinction of being Mubeen. "rijalan" can't be taken as male of any age. rijalan has been used as 'fully grown up man' not any male of childhood, adolescence etc.
Yes Quran, not Arabic which is a not a perfect language and words are fluid multiple meaning best derived from context; e.g. 434 and beat them (waidriboohunna) issue.
Rijalan cannot be a fully grown up man in context below...
4176 ...and if they were brothers/brethren ?rijalan wanisaan?, so to the male equal share the two females?Example, a man dies leaving as his only inheritors 2 brothers and 2 sisters
Where do we draw the line on the age of participant inheritors ? age 10, 15, 20?Likewise with nisaan in context below means females of any age...
411 God directs you in your CHILDREN, to the male equal share the two females,
...so if they are females (nisaan) over two, so for them 2/3 what he left...Whereas, nisaan in many verses using Quran cross-reference can only be women/adults...
2231 And if you divorced the women (alnnisaa)
654 And those who became infertile from the menstruation from your women (nisa-ikum)Arabic is heavily male centered with terms like ikhwatun (brothers); group can include little girls and boys, same with rijalan wanisaan ? context/cross-reference clarifies best meaning.
Peace
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3352 It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens) and Allah doth watch over all things
Mohammad pbuh was prohibited to add on, or change his wives but No such limit was imposed on MMa.
siki
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Of the 58 places can you explain the following
44 Where in the qur'aan do we find the "sadaqa" be given to women? Who is addressed in this verse? Is it for men only?Sister I requested you to explain for my knowledge about hamza issue.
43 mentions about engaging women in marriage.
And what is Nikah/marriage. Men are told that except for such and such woman, with reference to the sanctity of relationship, and those already bound by the tie of Nikah, other women are made permissible so that men may make a vigorous effort with their money/wealth to seek them for marriage like those who seek woman for making and retaining them as ?pearl? {wife/household} and not like those who seek women with wealth in the manner of a debauch.{424}
44 44
This is the manner and spirit of what men are under obligation to do;
{424}
{425}
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Yes Quran, not Arabic which is a not a perfect language and words are fluid multiple meaning best derived from context; e.g. 434 and beat them (waidriboohunna) issue.
Brother, It amounts to believing in part of Quran and denying/negating some other part. When it is said about Quran that it is Mubeen we say yes it is. But Quran simultaneously says its language Arabic is Mubeen, we say no and add, it is not a perfect language. We contradict even in one small sentence; Quran does not contradict its statements. waidriboohunna issue is made by people. Quran is explicit. Immediately before waidriboohunna is the advice to distance them, wife..inside the bed room. Distancing inside the bed room remains an affair of dispute restricted to husband and wife and none of other members of the family can know about it. The next and final step is to remove wife from the bed room to make the dispute open and evident to other members of the family. waidriboohunna's root infolds in itself the said meaning, make things evident/open/known/understood to people, that is why it is used for giving example since example makes things evident/distinct/understood.
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4911 Aren't nisaa' included in "qawm" already?
Advice is to the community who identify themselves as believers that a "group/tribe" should not mock other group/tribe and same instruction is being given to women with regard to women. Mockery against a tribe and mockery of women against women are two different and distinct things. Women/men of the same tribe could mock other women of the same "qaum".
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Brother, It amounts to believing in part of Quran and denying/negating some other part. When it is said about Quran that it is Mubeen we say yes it is. But Quran simultaneously says its language Arabic is Mubeen, we say no and add, it is not a perfect language. We contradict even in one small sentence; Quran does not contradict its statements.
Brother, there is no contradiction; Quran in Arabic is mubeen ? not everything written in Arabic is mubeen/clear.
4458 So We made it easy in your tongue/language...
26193-196
The spirit, the faithful, descended with it
On your heart/mind to be from the warners
With a clear/evident Arabic language
And that it truly is in the first's Books (i.e. Quran in previous languages; Hebrew, Aramaic)4144 And if We made it a non-Arabic Quran, they would have said "If only its verses were detailed/explained. Is (it) a non-Arabic and an Arab (messenger)?"
Quran would be descended mubeen/clear in any language of the messengers from Albanian to Zulu.
Peace
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Advice is to the community who identify themselves as believers that a "group/tribe" should not mock other group/tribe and same instruction is being given to women with regard to women. Mockery against a tribe and mockery of women against women are two different and distinct things. Women/men of the same tribe could mock other women of the same "qaum".
I understand the meaning of the verse, but my question is why are women mentioned alone after the mention of "qawm"? Why aren't en mentioned alone too?
Cross reference with verse 434 and see the link between (qawm) and (qawwamuun) which share the same root; then (nisaa' in both verses, then you will understand why "rijaal" was not mentioned and what the meaning of (nisaa' is here.
Cross context and referencing, as Hasan mentioned, are the best way to understand the quraan. Linguistics comes later to refute or confirm an understanding.
Or as Dr. Waduud puts it, "read the Book with the eyes of the author". -
I?DRIBU-HUNNA (Passive Imperfect, Feminine verb) "TO NEGLECT, IGNORE, AVOID, TURN AWAY FROM STRIFE, DISCORD, ANIMOSITY BETWEEN OR AMONG PEOPLE" ;Lanes Lexicon PAGE 1779 Left Column & 1780 Middle Column Part 5
Does not mean 'hit', cease believing women can be abused.
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wives are given "ujuur payment" not "sadaqa charity".
Translation of ujuur as payment is too crude and is relevant only to a debauch who makes payment to a 'hired worman'. The manner of discharging the agreed liability at the time of Nikkah is to give them in the manner of sadaqotehinna. Word charity does not portray the concept of sadaqa in the true sense.
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This is morphology (sarf) not grammar.
Of the 58 places can you explain the following
44 Where in the qur'aan do we find the "sadaqa" be given to women? Who is addressed in this verse? Is it for men only?
4127 The verse further explains what "nisaa" is composed of.
4911 Aren't nisaa' included in "qawm" already?
361 "ta3aluu" doesn't this verbal noun include women ? Why are "nisaa'" mentioned again?
2431 Who can be "nisaa'uhunna"? Who is "my woman"?
434 Is this a command or a statement that "men are qawwamuuna ala women"? Which men?Peace Samia,
According to 9.60 sadaqa is given to
- The poor
- The needy
- Those who work to collect the sadaqa
- To free the slaves
- Those in depth
- In the cause of God
- The wayfarer
According to 4.127 nisaa? is composed of the following
- orphan?s mothers - yatama Nisaa?
- weak from the children - mustadafina min al-wildan
- orphans ? yatama
So the above three categories of nisaa? are given sadaqa (charity). On the other hand the women are given ujuur (payment).
49.11 The women are included in qawm. The nisaa? of verse 4.127 are not included in qawm. They are named separately as nisaa?. Men and women can be qawwam. Men and women can be part of the three catagories of nisaa? explained in 4.127.
3.61 The verbal noun ?ta3aluu? includes women and men. Nisaa? in this verse are the grand children including males and females. ?Abnaina and abnaiqum? are ?our children and your children including males and females?
24.31 Nisaa?uhunna in this verse is the same nisaa? as in verse 3.61
4.34 Is not a command or a statement that "men are qawwamuuna ala women". The ones (male or female)work, earn money, and spend it on the ones stay back at home (male or female) are named Rijal.
The ones who stay back at home (male or female) are called nisaa?Please correct me if I am mistaken
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Peace Samia,
According to 9.60 sadaqa is given to
- The poor
- The needy
- Those who work to collect the sadaqa
- To free the slaves
- Those in depth
- In the cause of God
- The wayfarer
According to 4.127 nisaa? is composed of the following
- orphan?s mothers - yatama Nisaa?
- weak from the children - mustadafina min al-wildan
- orphans ? yatama
So the above three categories of nisaa? are given sadaqa (charity). On the other hand the women are given ujuur (payment).
49.11 The women are included in qawm. The nisaa? of verse 4.127 are not included in qawm. They are named separately as nisaa?. Men and women can be qawwam. Men and women can be part of the three catagories of nisaa? explained in 4.127.
3.61 The verbal noun ?ta3aluu? includes women and men. Nisaa? in this verse are the grand children including males and females. ?Abnaina and abnaiqum? are ?our children and your children including males and females?
24.31 Nisaa?uhunna in this verse is the same nisaa? as in verse 3.61
4.34 Is not a command or a statement that "men are qawwamuuna ala women". The ones (male or female)work, earn money, and spend it on the ones stay back at home (male or female) are named Rijal.
The ones who stay back at home (male or female) are called nisaa?Please correct me if I am mistaken
Salaam Tlepsh
You are not at all mistaken. This is exactly how I undersatnd these verses.
If you read the whole thread, you will see that my post was directed to Mahar who sees that the term "nisaa'" ALWAYS mean women. -
Translation of ujuur as payment is too crude and is relevant only to a debauch who makes payment to a 'hired worman'. The manner of discharging the agreed liability at the time of Nikkah is to give them in the manner of sadaqotehinna. Word charity does not portray the concept of sadaqa in the true sense.
Well, I do not know why you look at a "hired woman" in a codescending manner, unless this comes from your own understanding of "why" she is "paid" or for what she is hired. Isn't it in the qur'aan that a mother is to be paid for breast-feeding her infant? Does God even say if she does it for free it is better or more righteous?
Please searcn for the word "ajr" or its derivatives in the qur'aan to see what it means and who gives ajr and who receives it and for what it is "paid", then you may understand why wives are paid "ajr" and not "sadaqa".