How can we prove that the Quran is the word of GOD and not Muhammad??
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Peace aalmakto,
By positive statement, I mean a statement which does not contain a negative. For example
A. Iraq has weapons of mass destruction ---> positive statement
B. Iraq does not have weapons of mass desruction ---> negative statementBurden of proof is on the one who claims A, not on one who claims B.
A. Martians exist ---> positive statement
B. Martians do not exist ---> negative statement.Burden of proof is on the one who claims A, not on one who claims B.
A. 80 foot humans and flying horses exist.
B. 80 foot humans and flying horses do not exist.Burden of proof is on the one who claims A, not on one who claims B.
A. Universe came into existence by random chance.
B. Universe did not come into existence by random chance.Burden of proof is on the one who claims A, not on one who claims B.
Hope that helped.
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How about the scientific miracles in the Quran? Muhammad couldn't have known that much about science considering that he was uneducated and lived way before such discoveries were made.
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Peace
OK Bubbles... You seem to be a fascinating guy.... So... you want proof that God does exist...
then..
JUST PROVE ME THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST.
Firstly I'm not a guy
Secondly I never said that god does not exist, I don't know if he does or not. I merely lack belief in god and until I get some kind of evidence for a god, his existence will be as likely to me as that of unicorns or leprechauns since you cannot disprove them either.Tell me who gave you life... and what makes your heart beat on and on....
Have a look at this http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_conduction_system_of_the_heart
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Peace WayFinder,
Just to add to what I said above, whenever confronted with someone who does not believe in existence of God, ask him/her how the universe came to existence, i.e. make a positive statement, and then ask for proof of that positive statement because then the burden of proof is on him/her. That will be the proper way to do it and this way of thinking will eventually lead that person to the truth. For example, if someone says the universe came into existence by random chance, then the burden of proof is on that person to prove that it occurred by random chance. When that person will try to get a proof of that positive statement, he/she will not be able to find any proof of that positive statement and will eventually conclude that it is not true. Then he/she will be forced to make another positive hypothesis, for example the universe was created by multiple gods, and then the burden of proof will be again on that person to prove that positive hypothesis. Eventually all the possibilities other than one God will be ruled out and the eventual conclusion will be that the universe could only have been created by One Higher Power.
Why would all the other possibilities besides the idea of one god be ruled out? The only way that you could come to such a conclusion is to show evidence that the idea of one god is more viable and has lots of undeniable evidence that the other possibilities don't have. By the way I'm not a theist and if you asked me where did the universe come I would say it all began at a singularity that for what ever reason began to expand rapidly, beyond that I would just say I don't know.
The other avenue of thinking is that believing in God is less risky than not believing in God. The prudent logical person will come to the conclusion that if there is no God and the person dies then nothing to worry about but if there is a God then there is a problem! So it is less risky to believe in a God than not to believe in God.
When pursuing these avenues of thought the sincere person will study everything out there including the words of God and science etc. and will eventually be forced to conclude that there is one God and that it is safer to believe in God!
The problem here is that you're making the assumption that it is the disbeliever that is punished. What if there is a god that likes skepticism rather than obedience? Or a god that likes people that have an honest belief or disbelief in him rather than a belief out of fear of punishment? There are a multitude of religions past and present, what if following the wrong religion gets this hypothetical god angrier than if one simply disbelieved?
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Salaam
Well I see someone seeking explanations in search of God and, if you are seriously looking for God, you would find all your answers including why back when you asked for an "explanation" you did not get it then and there ...Patience is one requirement and if you lack patience you cannot expect God to be patient with you.
I was seriously looking for god, and like I said I got nothing. I see no reason to continue being patient with a god that in the Quran promises to guide those that seek guidance, but allows me to stray which could have been avoided had he answered my many prayers for explanations and evidence.
It?s good to know you enjoy plays and poetry; I would say life itself is a big play on a bigger stage. It may be good to sit back and see your part in your own life play itself out and then assess what role you would like to play. This may help you to come up with a plan of your own and then you would not say I am no good at writing and maybe then you would think differently.
I think I mentioned before that views on literature are generally subjective, and from my perspective my writing ability isn't very good. To some the Quran is the greatest piece of literature in existence, but others will simply disagree, which is why I don't think the quality of a piece of literature is proof that it has a divine origin.
What is wrong with saying positive things about others people?s faith? Making positive remarks about others does not necessarily mean you have an ulterior motive to force your views on others ...Start thinking in a positive manner and you may see things from a different point of view.
I don't think that there is anything wrong with saying positive things about other peoples faith, but the OP suggested that the mentioning of Moses in the Quran was some sort of evidence that Muhammed was a prophet. I simply suggested that it is not inconceivable for a somewhat intelligent individual to realise that mentioning the name of someone that many people are familiar with would make Islam seem more attractive. I don't think this is definitely the case, just a possibility.
This is one factor but I was talking about ?fastest growing religion? in terms of the number of reverts attracted to the teaching of Qur?an. Most converts were taken aback by the beauty of the Qur?an, whereas many born Muslims, who have lots of Muslim relatives, including lots of children, have been unable to grasp the teachings of the Qur?an. With those Islam has shrunk rather than grown.
Good luck sunDo you have a source for Islam being the fastest growing religion in terms of converts?
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How about the scientific miracles in the Quran? Muhammad couldn't have known that much about science considering that he was uneducated and lived way before such discoveries were made.
Many of the things suggested in the Quran were known back then or are simply too vague. There are also verses in the Quran that from my understanding of the text are scientifically inaccurate. For example, the verse about semen coming from between the backbone and the rib.
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Peace everyone,
Why would all the other possibilities besides the idea of one god be ruled out?
That is the proper logical approach. It is also the way of Abraham )
The only way that you could come to such a conclusion is to show evidence that the idea of one god is more viable and has lots of undeniable evidence that the other possibilities don't have.
Yes there is. Please study astronomy, particle physics, quantum mechanics, human anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry, and statistics and laws of probability. By study, I mean take a university course, not just skimp articles off imam google )
By the way I'm not a theist and if you asked me where did the universe come I would say it all began at a singularity that for what ever reason began to expand rapidly, beyond that I would just say I don't know.
How did the singularity come into existence? What was the reason it began to expand rapidly? Who determined the precise force of the big bang, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise force between protons and neutrons in an atom, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise force between electrons and the nucleus, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise force between the quarks, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise vibration of the energy strings which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise value of Planck's constant, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of universe? What are the odds of all these precise values being what they are by random chance alone?
WHO IS THE OBSERVER THAT CAUSES THE EXISTENCE OF UNIVERSE TO BE POSSIBLE? Without this external observer, the whole universe would collapse in a nano-second! (The Princeton interpretation of the Copenhagen phenomenon)
http//books.google.com/books?id=WEM4hqxJ-xYC&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq=princeton+interpretation+observer&source=bl&ots=1Vd6LaD_f8&sig=aibmsYnM3XZ2qPSH77Ry7UwI8mU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
The problem here is that you're making the assumption that it is the disbeliever that is punished. What if there is a god that likes skepticism rather than obedience? Or a god that likes people that have an honest belief or disbelief in him rather than a belief out of fear of punishment? There are a multitude of religions past and present, what if following the wrong religion gets this hypothetical god angrier than if one simply disbelieved?
Following the wrong religion is disbelieving. Following anything other than the absolute truth is disbelieving.
What if the assumption that the disbeliever is punished is true? What if hell really exists? No problem for the other scenarios but what if God exists and disbelievers will be punished in hell for choosing disbelief out of their own free-will? Would that not be a big risk one takes when one does not believe in existence of God and existence of hell? What would be the safer approach?
Believing in God and the Last Day, and doing good deeds would be the safest approach )
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Peace everyone,
Many of the things suggested in the Quran were known back then or are simply too vague. There are also verses in the Quran that from my understanding of the text are scientifically inaccurate. For example, the verse about semen coming from between the backbone and the rib.
This is what results from skimpy, hasty study of the scripture. People don't even bother to check the accuracy of the translations and then pass their verdicts based on mistranslations.
867 It comes out from between the spine and the testicles.
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Peace everyone,
That is the proper logical approach. It is also the way of Abraham
Yes there is. Please study astronomy, particle physics, quantum mechanics, human anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry, and statistics and laws of probability. By study, I mean take a university course, not just skimp articles off imam google
How would this help in showing me that there is one god? I'm applying for Natural sciences at university so we'll see if learning all of that makes a difference.
How did the singularity come into existence? What was the reason it began to expand rapidly? Who determined the precise force of the big bang, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise force between protons and neutrons in an atom, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise force between electrons and the nucleus, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise force between the quarks, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise vibration of the energy strings which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise value of Planck's constant, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of universe? What are the odds of all these precise values being what they are by random chance alone?
I think the problem here is that you're asking "who" rather than "what" and "how". If the beginning conditions were slightly different then the universe as we know it wouldn't exist, but that isn't what happened so here we are. Mentioning odds is just silly. If we have a dice with 6 sides, the chances of it landing on the number 2 for example is 1/6. If that is what happens, you're not going to assume that something divine caused it to land on the number 2, you would realise that the chances of it landing on any of those numbers is equal. It's similar with the universe that we inhabit, the big bang just happened the way it did and now we're here as a result.
WHO IS THE OBSERVER THAT CAUSES THE EXISTENCE OF UNIVERSE TO BE POSSIBLE? Without this external observer, the whole universe would collapse in a nano-second! (The Princeton interpretation of the Copenhagen phenomenon)
http//books.google.com/books?id=WEM4hqxJ-xYC&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq=princeton+interpretation+observer&source=bl&ots=1Vd6LaD_f8&sig=aibmsYnM3XZ2qPSH77Ry7UwI8mU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
From my understanding of that article, we humans are the observers. There is no mention in that article of there being a divine observer.
Following the wrong religion is disbelieving. Following anything other than the absolute truth is disbelieving.
What if the assumption that the disbeliever is punished is true? What if hell really exists? No problem for the other scenarios but what if God exists and disbelievers will be punished in hell for choosing disbelief out of their own free-will? Would that not be a big risk one takes when one does not believe in existence of God and existence of hell? What would be the safer approach?
Believing in God and the Last Day, and doing good deeds would be the safest approach
All approaches are as safe as one another. For all we know god might like bad deeds and disbelief.
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Peace everyone,
This is what results from skimpy, hasty study of the scripture. People don't even bother to check the accuracy of the translations and then pass their verdicts based on mistranslations.
867 It comes out from between the spine and the testicles.
??? Does it mean the penis? If so, why doesn't the author just say that to save us the confusion?
I've read plenty of translations and none of the ones I've seen were referring to where the semen comes out of, but rather where it comes from or is produced. Your translation is no more valid than the others. I suppose the varying translations goes to show how vague the Quran really is. -
Peace aalmakto,
By positive statement, I mean a statement which does not contain a negative. For example
A. Iraq has weapons of mass destruction ---> positive statement
B. Iraq does not have weapons of mass desruction ---> negative statementBurden of proof is on the one who claims A, not on one who claims B.
A. Martians exist ---> positive statement
B. Martians do not exist ---> negative statement.Burden of proof is on the one who claims A, not on one who claims B.
A. 80 foot humans and flying horses exist.
B. 80 foot humans and flying horses do not exist.Burden of proof is on the one who claims A, not on one who claims B.
A. Universe came into existence by random chance.
B. Universe did not come into existence by random chance.Burden of proof is on the one who claims A, not on one who claims B.
Hope that helped.
Thank you for the breakdown. All clear yes
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Peace Bubbles,
How would this help in showing me that there is one god? I'm applying for Natural sciences at university so we'll see if learning all of that makes a difference.
Good, at least you are taking the right steps.
I think the problem here is that you're asking "who" rather than "what" and "how". If the beginning conditions were slightly different then the universe as we know it wouldn't exist, but that isn't what happened so here we are. Mentioning odds is just silly. If we have a dice with 6 sides, the chances of it landing on the number 2 for example is 1/6. If that is what happens, you're not going to assume that something divine caused it to land on the number 2, you would realise that the chances of it landing on any of those numbers is equal. It's similar with the universe that we inhabit, the big bang just happened the way it did and now we're here as a result.
Dice has only 6 possibilities. Have you calculated the odds of all those things I mentioned happening with a precise value at the same time? Have you even calculated the odds of just ONE of those values being decided by chance alone? Have you formed your null hypothesis about those precise values and then applied the p value testing?
Your answer shows your complete ignorance about those odds, so I would request you to do your research and actually find those odds, and then apply the p value test to find if it is likely to happen by chance over the known time period. Unless you do all that you are skimping the issue and not being sincere in your approach.
From my understanding of that article, we humans are the observers. There is no mention in that article of there being a divine observer.
The observer has to be outside/external to the reality being observed. For the whole universe to exist, the observer has to be outside the confines of the universe. Please take a course in quantum physics before yet again making hasty remarks.
All approaches are as safe as one another. For all we know god might like bad deeds and disbelief.
What if he doesn't? Why are you forgetting that possibility? If that possibility is true then the approach of not following His words will be very risky. So not all approaches are safe.
Your answers clearly indicate that you are not really being sincere in your quest for the truth and not really doing your home work. Maybe that is why you think that your questions are not being answered by God ! You are asking God to guide you but then you are not making the effort required to know and verify with full sincerity. Hope you are not offended by this but take it as sincere constructive criticism.
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Peace Bubbles,
??? Does it mean the penis? If so, why doesn't the author just say that to save us the confusion?
I've read plenty of translations and none of the ones I've seen were referring to where the semen comes out of, but rather where it comes from or is produced. Your translation is no more valid than the others. I suppose the varying translations goes to show how vague the Quran really is.There is nothing vague. When people mistranslate the clear words of God, it does not mean that God's words are vague, but it means that the people who intentionally mistranslate are crooks/liars/deceivers who twist God's words to misguide others. One word can have many meanings in ANY human language. The context determines the true meaning. That does not mean that the word used is vague.
For example, If I say that the paper is light, it means the paper is not heavy, and if I say that light is bright, it does not mean that I am talking about something not heavy as being bright. So just because I used the multiple meaning word "light" does not mean I am being vague, and the context clarifies the exact meaning.
Penis is not testicles. Your statement above yet again shows hasty and skimpy approach without bothering to study and do research and find out the exact truth.
Please study human anatomy and physiology of the reproductive system, and see for yourself how semen comes out from exactly between the testicles and the sacral spine. Look for yourself where vas deferens, accessory glands, seminal vesicles, and the prostrate gland are situated and how they are all between the testicles and the sacral spine.
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I was seriously looking for god, and like I said I got nothing. I see no reason to continue being patient with a god that in the Quran promises to guide those that seek guidance, but allows me to stray which could have been avoided had he answered my many prayers for explanations and evidence.
Salaam
Its late and I was about to skip replying to you then realised you would complain P first God does not reply to you and then God's servents are doing the same so lets see if you are getting any response from god or not hmm
Well if you pay attention you would noitce that explantion has been given to you in detail via a servent of god, now its up to you to carryon arguing or try and understand what TS11 has been explaining to you. sunTo some the Quran is the greatest piece of literature in existence, but others will simply disagree, which is why I don't think the quality of a piece of literature is proof that it has a divine origin.
Its only difference of opinion and choices, as there is no compulsion so why worry
I don't think that there is anything wrong with saying positive things about other peoples faith, but the OP suggested that the mentioning of Moses in the Quran was some sort of evidence that Muhammed was a prophet. I simply suggested that it is not inconceivable for a somewhat intelligent individual to realise that mentioning the name of someone that many people are familiar with would make Islam seem more attractive. I don't think this is definitely the case, just a possibility.
Now you sound bit positive keep it up bravo
Do you have a source for Islam being the fastest growing religion in terms of converts?
This has been discussed a lot on current affairs may be conversion of Jako will highlight this topic again So keep abreast with current affairs and you may learn bit more. Or just Google ,
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Salaam
Its late and I was about to skip replying to you then realised you would complain first God does not reply to you and then God's servents are doing the same so lets see if you are getting any response from god or not hmm
Nope I'm not getting a response because the answers that I want haven't been given.
Well if you pay attention you would noitce that explantion has been given to you in detail via a servent of god, now its up to you to carryon arguing or try and understand what TS11 has been explaining to you. sun
I would rather god did the explaining for himself because right now even if he does exist I still hate him.
Its only difference of opinion and choices, as there is no compulsion so why worry
kk
Now you sound bit positive keep it up bravoThis has been discussed a lot on current affairs may be conversion of Jako will highlight this topic again So keep abreast with current affairs and you may learn bit more. Or just Google ,
So you don't have a source for your claim then?
Wako Jako is someone that converted to Islam, but it is not like people don't leave Islam as well. -
Peace Bubbles,
There is nothing vague. When people mistranslate the clear words of God, it does not mean that God's words are vague, but it means that the people who intentionally mistranslate are crooks/liars/deceivers who twist God's words to misguide others. One word can have many meanings in ANY human language. The context determines the true meaning. That does not mean that the word used is vague.
I find it disgusting that you're calling these other translators who you don't even know liars and crooks. Please provide evidence for your claims that they were all crooks who intentionally mistranslated.
For example, If I say that the paper is light, it means the paper is not heavy, and if I say that light is bright, it does not mean that I am talking about something not heavy as being bright. So just because I used the multiple meaning word "light" does not mean I am being vague, and the context clarifies the exact meaning.
Show me another instance where the word "tara-ib" is used to mean testicles in Classical Arabic literature or give an example of a famous Arabic linguist that has ever used that word to mean testicles.
Penis is not testicles. Your statement above yet again shows hasty and skimpy approach without bothering to study and do research and find out the exact truth.
The Free-mind's translation says the semen comes out from between the backbone and the testicles, and not from the testicles alone.
Please study human anatomy and physiology of the reproductive system, and see for yourself how semen comes out from exactly between the testicles and the sacral spine. Look for yourself where vas deferens, accessory glands, seminal vesicles, and the prostrate gland are situated and how they are all between the testicles and the sacral spine.
I'm well aware of all this. The translation you provided said that semen "comes out from", which I took to mean the penis. The issue here is that the Quran lacks clarity and it isn't as easy to understand as the author of the Quran claims.
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Peace Bubbles,
Good, at least you are taking the right steps. )
Dice has only 6 possibilities. Have you calculated the odds of all those things I mentioned happening with a precise value at the same time? Have you even calculated the odds of just ONE of those values being decided by chance alone? Have you formed your null hypothesis about those precise values and then applied the p value testing?
Have you? Why is chance not sufficient? When people play the lottery the chances that they will win are could be 1 in a million, but in the end someone wins. Nothing divine is involved in them winning because the chances are the same for each person who played the lottery. I'm a bit of a believer in determinism and I see everything that happens as a result of cause and effect including my own existence and even the decisions that I make, if the physical constants were somewhat different then I simply wouldn't exist and that would be that. Our existence is no more amazing than our non-existence.
What about the possibility of Multiple universes? If there are many universes with different physical constants then it is plausible that at least one of those universes would have the physical constants necessary for our existence.
Your answer shows your complete ignorance about those odds, so I would request you to do your research and actually find those odds, and then apply the p value test to find if it is likely to happen by chance over the known time period. Unless you do all that you are skimping the issue and not being sincere in your approach.
The observer has to be outside/external to the reality being observed. For the whole universe to exist, the observer has to be outside the confines of the universe. Please take a course in quantum physics before yet again making hasty remarks.
I think you should take the course. Nothing needs to be outside our universe observing it for it to exist. On the Quantum level however observation has an effect, but if we stopped observing the particles they wouldn't just cease to exist.
What if he doesn't? Why are you forgetting that possibility? If that possibility is true then the approach of not following His words will be very risky. So not all approaches are safe.
I'm not forgetting the possibility of Allah, and I'm not forgetting the possibility of the Flying Spaghetti Monster either who would punish me for worshiping anyone other than him.
I forgot to mention before that you cannot force yourself to believe something, you are either convinced by it or you aren't and I am not convinced of god or the Quran.
Your answers clearly indicate that you are not really being sincere in your quest for the truth and not really doing your home work. Maybe that is why you think that your questions are not being answered by God ! You are asking God to guide you but then you are not making the effort required to know and verify with full sincerity. Hope you are not offended by this but take it as sincere constructive criticism.
How exactly do I "know and verify with full sincerity"? You mention that I haven't done my homework, and although I totally disagree with you, I think it is just abhorrent and evil for god to burn someone in hell for not researching everything related to Islam. A problem that is apparent in both Christianity and Islam is that belief seems to be a major determinant in who goes to heaven and hell. Simply feeling that god's existence is unknowable and lacking belief in god supposedly warrants eternal damnation.
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"In time We shall make them fully
understand Our signs in the farthest horizons
and within themselves, so that it will become clear
to them that this is indeed the
truth. Is it not enough to know that your
Sustainer is a witness to everything? "Al-Qur'an 41 53
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Nope I'm not getting a response because the answers that I want haven't been given.I would rather god did the explaining for himself because right now even if he does exist I still hate him.kkSo you don't have a source for your claim then?
May be you are too dumb hmm
May be your questions are not worth a response hmm
May be you are a stubborn person who is thinks too much of herself hmmWako Jako is someone that converted to Islam, but it is not like people don't leave Islam as well.
Happy exit and good ridden bravo