How can we prove that the Quran is the word of GOD and not Muhammad??
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Peace everyone,
That is the proper logical approach. It is also the way of Abraham
Yes there is. Please study astronomy, particle physics, quantum mechanics, human anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry, and statistics and laws of probability. By study, I mean take a university course, not just skimp articles off imam google
How would this help in showing me that there is one god? I'm applying for Natural sciences at university so we'll see if learning all of that makes a difference.
How did the singularity come into existence? What was the reason it began to expand rapidly? Who determined the precise force of the big bang, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise force between protons and neutrons in an atom, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise force between electrons and the nucleus, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise force between the quarks, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise vibration of the energy strings which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise value of Planck's constant, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of universe? What are the odds of all these precise values being what they are by random chance alone?
I think the problem here is that you're asking "who" rather than "what" and "how". If the beginning conditions were slightly different then the universe as we know it wouldn't exist, but that isn't what happened so here we are. Mentioning odds is just silly. If we have a dice with 6 sides, the chances of it landing on the number 2 for example is 1/6. If that is what happens, you're not going to assume that something divine caused it to land on the number 2, you would realise that the chances of it landing on any of those numbers is equal. It's similar with the universe that we inhabit, the big bang just happened the way it did and now we're here as a result.
WHO IS THE OBSERVER THAT CAUSES THE EXISTENCE OF UNIVERSE TO BE POSSIBLE? Without this external observer, the whole universe would collapse in a nano-second! (The Princeton interpretation of the Copenhagen phenomenon)
http//books.google.com/books?id=WEM4hqxJ-xYC&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq=princeton+interpretation+observer&source=bl&ots=1Vd6LaD_f8&sig=aibmsYnM3XZ2qPSH77Ry7UwI8mU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
From my understanding of that article, we humans are the observers. There is no mention in that article of there being a divine observer.
Following the wrong religion is disbelieving. Following anything other than the absolute truth is disbelieving.
What if the assumption that the disbeliever is punished is true? What if hell really exists? No problem for the other scenarios but what if God exists and disbelievers will be punished in hell for choosing disbelief out of their own free-will? Would that not be a big risk one takes when one does not believe in existence of God and existence of hell? What would be the safer approach?
Believing in God and the Last Day, and doing good deeds would be the safest approach
All approaches are as safe as one another. For all we know god might like bad deeds and disbelief.
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Peace everyone,
This is what results from skimpy, hasty study of the scripture. People don't even bother to check the accuracy of the translations and then pass their verdicts based on mistranslations.
867 It comes out from between the spine and the testicles.
??? Does it mean the penis? If so, why doesn't the author just say that to save us the confusion?
I've read plenty of translations and none of the ones I've seen were referring to where the semen comes out of, but rather where it comes from or is produced. Your translation is no more valid than the others. I suppose the varying translations goes to show how vague the Quran really is. -
Peace aalmakto,
By positive statement, I mean a statement which does not contain a negative. For example
A. Iraq has weapons of mass destruction ---> positive statement
B. Iraq does not have weapons of mass desruction ---> negative statementBurden of proof is on the one who claims A, not on one who claims B.
A. Martians exist ---> positive statement
B. Martians do not exist ---> negative statement.Burden of proof is on the one who claims A, not on one who claims B.
A. 80 foot humans and flying horses exist.
B. 80 foot humans and flying horses do not exist.Burden of proof is on the one who claims A, not on one who claims B.
A. Universe came into existence by random chance.
B. Universe did not come into existence by random chance.Burden of proof is on the one who claims A, not on one who claims B.
Hope that helped.
Thank you for the breakdown. All clear yes
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Peace Bubbles,
How would this help in showing me that there is one god? I'm applying for Natural sciences at university so we'll see if learning all of that makes a difference.
Good, at least you are taking the right steps.
I think the problem here is that you're asking "who" rather than "what" and "how". If the beginning conditions were slightly different then the universe as we know it wouldn't exist, but that isn't what happened so here we are. Mentioning odds is just silly. If we have a dice with 6 sides, the chances of it landing on the number 2 for example is 1/6. If that is what happens, you're not going to assume that something divine caused it to land on the number 2, you would realise that the chances of it landing on any of those numbers is equal. It's similar with the universe that we inhabit, the big bang just happened the way it did and now we're here as a result.
Dice has only 6 possibilities. Have you calculated the odds of all those things I mentioned happening with a precise value at the same time? Have you even calculated the odds of just ONE of those values being decided by chance alone? Have you formed your null hypothesis about those precise values and then applied the p value testing?
Your answer shows your complete ignorance about those odds, so I would request you to do your research and actually find those odds, and then apply the p value test to find if it is likely to happen by chance over the known time period. Unless you do all that you are skimping the issue and not being sincere in your approach.
From my understanding of that article, we humans are the observers. There is no mention in that article of there being a divine observer.
The observer has to be outside/external to the reality being observed. For the whole universe to exist, the observer has to be outside the confines of the universe. Please take a course in quantum physics before yet again making hasty remarks.
All approaches are as safe as one another. For all we know god might like bad deeds and disbelief.
What if he doesn't? Why are you forgetting that possibility? If that possibility is true then the approach of not following His words will be very risky. So not all approaches are safe.
Your answers clearly indicate that you are not really being sincere in your quest for the truth and not really doing your home work. Maybe that is why you think that your questions are not being answered by God ! You are asking God to guide you but then you are not making the effort required to know and verify with full sincerity. Hope you are not offended by this but take it as sincere constructive criticism.
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Peace Bubbles,
??? Does it mean the penis? If so, why doesn't the author just say that to save us the confusion?
I've read plenty of translations and none of the ones I've seen were referring to where the semen comes out of, but rather where it comes from or is produced. Your translation is no more valid than the others. I suppose the varying translations goes to show how vague the Quran really is.There is nothing vague. When people mistranslate the clear words of God, it does not mean that God's words are vague, but it means that the people who intentionally mistranslate are crooks/liars/deceivers who twist God's words to misguide others. One word can have many meanings in ANY human language. The context determines the true meaning. That does not mean that the word used is vague.
For example, If I say that the paper is light, it means the paper is not heavy, and if I say that light is bright, it does not mean that I am talking about something not heavy as being bright. So just because I used the multiple meaning word "light" does not mean I am being vague, and the context clarifies the exact meaning.
Penis is not testicles. Your statement above yet again shows hasty and skimpy approach without bothering to study and do research and find out the exact truth.
Please study human anatomy and physiology of the reproductive system, and see for yourself how semen comes out from exactly between the testicles and the sacral spine. Look for yourself where vas deferens, accessory glands, seminal vesicles, and the prostrate gland are situated and how they are all between the testicles and the sacral spine.
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I was seriously looking for god, and like I said I got nothing. I see no reason to continue being patient with a god that in the Quran promises to guide those that seek guidance, but allows me to stray which could have been avoided had he answered my many prayers for explanations and evidence.
Salaam
Its late and I was about to skip replying to you then realised you would complain P first God does not reply to you and then God's servents are doing the same so lets see if you are getting any response from god or not hmm
Well if you pay attention you would noitce that explantion has been given to you in detail via a servent of god, now its up to you to carryon arguing or try and understand what TS11 has been explaining to you. sunTo some the Quran is the greatest piece of literature in existence, but others will simply disagree, which is why I don't think the quality of a piece of literature is proof that it has a divine origin.
Its only difference of opinion and choices, as there is no compulsion so why worry
I don't think that there is anything wrong with saying positive things about other peoples faith, but the OP suggested that the mentioning of Moses in the Quran was some sort of evidence that Muhammed was a prophet. I simply suggested that it is not inconceivable for a somewhat intelligent individual to realise that mentioning the name of someone that many people are familiar with would make Islam seem more attractive. I don't think this is definitely the case, just a possibility.
Now you sound bit positive keep it up bravo
Do you have a source for Islam being the fastest growing religion in terms of converts?
This has been discussed a lot on current affairs may be conversion of Jako will highlight this topic again So keep abreast with current affairs and you may learn bit more. Or just Google ,
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Salaam
Its late and I was about to skip replying to you then realised you would complain first God does not reply to you and then God's servents are doing the same so lets see if you are getting any response from god or not hmm
Nope I'm not getting a response because the answers that I want haven't been given.
Well if you pay attention you would noitce that explantion has been given to you in detail via a servent of god, now its up to you to carryon arguing or try and understand what TS11 has been explaining to you. sun
I would rather god did the explaining for himself because right now even if he does exist I still hate him.
Its only difference of opinion and choices, as there is no compulsion so why worry
kk
Now you sound bit positive keep it up bravoThis has been discussed a lot on current affairs may be conversion of Jako will highlight this topic again So keep abreast with current affairs and you may learn bit more. Or just Google ,
So you don't have a source for your claim then?
Wako Jako is someone that converted to Islam, but it is not like people don't leave Islam as well. -
Peace Bubbles,
There is nothing vague. When people mistranslate the clear words of God, it does not mean that God's words are vague, but it means that the people who intentionally mistranslate are crooks/liars/deceivers who twist God's words to misguide others. One word can have many meanings in ANY human language. The context determines the true meaning. That does not mean that the word used is vague.
I find it disgusting that you're calling these other translators who you don't even know liars and crooks. Please provide evidence for your claims that they were all crooks who intentionally mistranslated.
For example, If I say that the paper is light, it means the paper is not heavy, and if I say that light is bright, it does not mean that I am talking about something not heavy as being bright. So just because I used the multiple meaning word "light" does not mean I am being vague, and the context clarifies the exact meaning.
Show me another instance where the word "tara-ib" is used to mean testicles in Classical Arabic literature or give an example of a famous Arabic linguist that has ever used that word to mean testicles.
Penis is not testicles. Your statement above yet again shows hasty and skimpy approach without bothering to study and do research and find out the exact truth.
The Free-mind's translation says the semen comes out from between the backbone and the testicles, and not from the testicles alone.
Please study human anatomy and physiology of the reproductive system, and see for yourself how semen comes out from exactly between the testicles and the sacral spine. Look for yourself where vas deferens, accessory glands, seminal vesicles, and the prostrate gland are situated and how they are all between the testicles and the sacral spine.
I'm well aware of all this. The translation you provided said that semen "comes out from", which I took to mean the penis. The issue here is that the Quran lacks clarity and it isn't as easy to understand as the author of the Quran claims.
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Peace Bubbles,
Good, at least you are taking the right steps. )
Dice has only 6 possibilities. Have you calculated the odds of all those things I mentioned happening with a precise value at the same time? Have you even calculated the odds of just ONE of those values being decided by chance alone? Have you formed your null hypothesis about those precise values and then applied the p value testing?
Have you? Why is chance not sufficient? When people play the lottery the chances that they will win are could be 1 in a million, but in the end someone wins. Nothing divine is involved in them winning because the chances are the same for each person who played the lottery. I'm a bit of a believer in determinism and I see everything that happens as a result of cause and effect including my own existence and even the decisions that I make, if the physical constants were somewhat different then I simply wouldn't exist and that would be that. Our existence is no more amazing than our non-existence.
What about the possibility of Multiple universes? If there are many universes with different physical constants then it is plausible that at least one of those universes would have the physical constants necessary for our existence.
Your answer shows your complete ignorance about those odds, so I would request you to do your research and actually find those odds, and then apply the p value test to find if it is likely to happen by chance over the known time period. Unless you do all that you are skimping the issue and not being sincere in your approach.
The observer has to be outside/external to the reality being observed. For the whole universe to exist, the observer has to be outside the confines of the universe. Please take a course in quantum physics before yet again making hasty remarks.
I think you should take the course. Nothing needs to be outside our universe observing it for it to exist. On the Quantum level however observation has an effect, but if we stopped observing the particles they wouldn't just cease to exist.
What if he doesn't? Why are you forgetting that possibility? If that possibility is true then the approach of not following His words will be very risky. So not all approaches are safe.
I'm not forgetting the possibility of Allah, and I'm not forgetting the possibility of the Flying Spaghetti Monster either who would punish me for worshiping anyone other than him.
I forgot to mention before that you cannot force yourself to believe something, you are either convinced by it or you aren't and I am not convinced of god or the Quran.
Your answers clearly indicate that you are not really being sincere in your quest for the truth and not really doing your home work. Maybe that is why you think that your questions are not being answered by God ! You are asking God to guide you but then you are not making the effort required to know and verify with full sincerity. Hope you are not offended by this but take it as sincere constructive criticism.
How exactly do I "know and verify with full sincerity"? You mention that I haven't done my homework, and although I totally disagree with you, I think it is just abhorrent and evil for god to burn someone in hell for not researching everything related to Islam. A problem that is apparent in both Christianity and Islam is that belief seems to be a major determinant in who goes to heaven and hell. Simply feeling that god's existence is unknowable and lacking belief in god supposedly warrants eternal damnation.
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"In time We shall make them fully
understand Our signs in the farthest horizons
and within themselves, so that it will become clear
to them that this is indeed the
truth. Is it not enough to know that your
Sustainer is a witness to everything? "Al-Qur'an 41 53
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Nope I'm not getting a response because the answers that I want haven't been given.I would rather god did the explaining for himself because right now even if he does exist I still hate him.kkSo you don't have a source for your claim then?
May be you are too dumb hmm
May be your questions are not worth a response hmm
May be you are a stubborn person who is thinks too much of herself hmmWako Jako is someone that converted to Islam, but it is not like people don't leave Islam as well.
Happy exit and good ridden bravo
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May be you are too dumb hmm
May be your questions are not worth a response hmm
May be you are a stubborn person who is thinks too much of herself hmmHappy exit and good ridden bravoMaybe you're a brainwashed dummy far too frightened of hell to be capable of questioning the egotistical, tyrannical, sadistic dictator that is god hmm. Would you even give a thought to all those burning in hell with me if your god turns out to be real?
Seriously, I cannot understand why you felt the need to use personal attacks.
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Many of the things suggested in the Quran were known back then or are simply too vague. There are also verses in the Quran that from my understanding of the text are scientifically inaccurate. For example, the verse about semen coming from between the backbone and the rib.
Hi Bubbles
Firstly, sorry for referring to you as a guy... I missed the sign in haste... P
So, you are IMPLYING that scientific miracles in the Quran were already known from before... check the following verses
2314 and then We create out of the drop of sperm a germ-cell, and then We create out of the germ-cell an embryonic lump, and then We create within the embryonic lump bones, and then We clothe the bones with flesh - and then We bring this into being as a new creation hallowed, therefore, is God, the best of artisans!
This verse, among others give a CLEAR description of the gestation stages of the embryo... This could not have been observed in detail until the invention of the endoscopes and some other scopes which have been invented only recently... So do you have an explanation how these has been mentioned in detail in the Quran revealed 1400 years ago...
Since you CLAIMED that these scientific facts were KNOWN from before the Quran... therefore you SHOULD back your CLAIM with some convincing proof... Show us some very very old scriptures/parchments or the like that described these gestation stages... It will be more convincing if you can get us some HIEROGLYPHS which explain all these in details....
Regards
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Maybe you're a brainwashed dummy far too frightened of hell to be capable of questioning the egotistical, tyrannical, sadistic dictator that is god hmm. Would you even give a thought to all those burning in hell with me if your god turns out to be real?
If only you realise you are already going through hell then you would understand what the hell is it all about '(
Seriously, I cannot understand why you felt the need to use personal attacks.
You have made this thread personal all about you and your demands, trying to be cocky and now you wonder why you need a personal attention ???
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I haven't read this thread and I don't know if I've already posted here a long time ago, but here's what I think.
The quran is the word of god if it is TRUE. If it's not true, then it was just some person's wrong interpretation of the world that god created. If it is right, then his words are inline with god's "words" (the universe), and so the quran is from god.
That is, I believe, the only way.
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What a coincidence, Lobster. I was just about to post the same exact message.
I read the thread title and got me thinking, why does it matter if Muhammad wrote it or not? After reading a biography about him (Critical Lives Muhammad) I remember getting the feeling like the revelations were responding to events in his life, like these issues were bothering him so he prayed or meditated on it and came out with an answer. Sometimes it seemed like the Qu'ran was a commentary on social figures and circumstances in his time and place. If the Qu'ran wasn't miraculously revealed and it was composed by someone who strongly believed in GOD and felt inspired by his own belief it is a great testament to the power of faith. If the atheists were right and GOD didn't exist I'd be even more amazed at the Qu'ran.
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Peace,
it would be cool if people learned greek before talking about logic and all the philosophical terms. just like they are learning arabic to understand the quran. i mean think of it. shouldnt we varify all these terms in there orginal languages also? to see where these philosophers came with this approch on logic.
It is really interesting its like why depend on this imperfect form of logic to base all your arguments on?Christianity is very hellenistic and it seems like people are trying to make the Quran hellenistic too.. with all these terms.
great i opened my big mouth now i gotta go learn great or im dead.
EDIT I have 2 friends getting there majors in philosophy and the one i spoke to does say that greek is the way to go when talking about philosophy. which makes sense... western philosophy is based on greek philosophy.!!
peace
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Hi Bubbles
Firstly, sorry for referring to you as a guy... I missed the sign in haste... P
So, you are IMPLYING that scientific miracles in the Quran were already known from before... check the following verses
2314 and then We create out of the drop of sperm a germ-cell, and then We create out of the germ-cell an embryonic lump, and then We create within the embryonic lump bones, and then We clothe the bones with flesh - and then We bring this into being as a new creation hallowed, therefore, is God, the best of artisans!
This is a rather strange translation, there was no word for germ cell in the 7th century and that is not what "3alaqa" translates to. Also, this verse is kind of inaccurate when it mentions bones being clothed with flesh considering that bones and muscles develop simultaneously from the same tissue.
This verse, among others give a CLEAR description of the gestation stages of the embryo... This could not have been observed in detail until the invention of the endoscopes and some other scopes which have been invented only recently... So do you have an explanation how these has been mentioned in detail in the Quran revealed 1400 years ago...
Since you CLAIMED that these scientific facts were KNOWN from before the Quran... therefore you SHOULD back your CLAIM with some convincing proof... Show us some very very old scriptures/parchments or the like that described these gestation stages... It will be more convincing if you can get us some HIEROGLYPHS which explain all these in details....
RegardsThese are the words of a Physician called Galen living in the 2nd century, about 500 years prior to Muhammed
"But let us take the account back again to the first conformation of the animal, and in order to make our account orderly and clear, let us divide the creation of the foetus overall into four periods of time. The first is that in which. as is seen both in abortions and in dissection, the form of the semen prevails (Arabic nutfah). At this time, Hippocrates too, the all-marvelous, does not yet call the conformation of the animal a foetus; as we heard just now in the case of semen voided in the sixth day, he still calls it semen. But when it has been filled with blood (Arabic alaqa), and heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet have by now a certain solidarity and considerable size, this is the second period; the substance of the foetus has the form of flesh and no longer the form of semen. Accordingly you would find that Hippocrates too no longer calls such a form semen but, as was said, foetus. The third period follows on this, when, as was said, it is possible to see the three ruling parts clearly and a kind of outline, a silhouette, as it were, of all the other parts (Arabic mudghah). You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs. Later on they form "twigs", as Hippocrates expressed it, indicating by the term their similarity to branches. The fourth and final period is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated; and at this part Hippocrates the marvelous no longer calls the foetus an embryo only, but already a child, too when he says that it jerks and moves as an animal now fully formed (Arabic ?a new creation?) ...
... The time has come for nature to articulate the organs precisely and to bring all the parts to completion. Thus it caused flesh to grow on and around all the bones, and at the same time ... it made at the ends of the bones ligaments that bind them to each other, and along their entire length it placed around them on all sides thin membranes, called periosteal, on which it caused flesh to grow"
The bits in brackets were put in by the people on Answering-Islam, but the rest is from a translation of Galen's book by Philip De Lacy.
http//www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/embryo.htmlIf you want you can have a look at a translation of his book 'On Semen' which also has the original Greek. It's a great deal more detailed than anything in the Quran in my opinion.
http//books.google.com/books?id=CyK2oKiLDTAC&pg=PA218&lpg=PA218&dq=galen+on+semen+page+92&source=bl&ots=CH8F1sjS0P&sig=n4svJ5qQWUtaj7iCrD9HPyPBIQo&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA103,M1 -
This is a rather strange translation, there was no word for germ cell in the 7th century and that is not what "3alaqa" translates to. Also, this verse is kind of inaccurate when it mentions bones being clothed with flesh considering that bones and muscles develop simultaneously from the same tissue.
These are the words of a Physician called Galen living in the 2nd century, about 500 years prior to Muhammed
If you want you can have a look at a translation of his book 'On Semen' which also has the original Greek. It's a great deal more detailed than anything in the Quran in my opinion.
http//books.google.com/books?id=CyK2oKiLDTAC&pg=PA218&lpg=PA218&dq=galen+on+semen+page+92&source=bl&ots=CH8F1sjS0P&sig=n4svJ5qQWUtaj7iCrD9HPyPBIQo&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA103,M1Oh Now I can see what sort of reading you enjoy and consider superior to the Qur'an where you managed to find , "Some possible explanations".. -.. If this is the case, not only is the Qur'an wrong, but it also plagiarises ancient Greek literature!.... .. But confused."how could Muhammed have known these things?".. hmm.. apparently a cousin of Muhammed and also a doctor by profession clever company huh and Muhammad owed to Harith a part of his medical knowledge. -. and they found out o We know that one of the Companions of the Prophet was a doctor wow who trained at the very same medical school that the Greek translations were kept and taught at. .. '( and this gave the prophet an ! how to take the world for a looong ride.... clever plagiariser.. Now you are a well aware well informed -[
Feel for you first you were staunched hadithist and now an enemy of God and the prophet.... what a sad transformation or may be none brickwall7;146 I will turn away from My communications those who are unjustly proud in the earth; and if they see every sign they will not believe in It; and if they see the way of rectitude they do not take It for a way, and if they see the way of error. they take it for a way; this is because they rejected Our communications and were heedless of them.