The Great Miriam Dilemma
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Salam all
The Quran confirms the Torah
Aron is the brother of Moses
Mariam is the daughter of Amran, who came ages after Moses and his brother Aron.
Mariam had a brother, who is named after Moses brother-Aron.
It is very comment to have Moses and Aron names within the childer of Israel during Jesus time and untill today.
Now it will be nice if you show me a verse from Quran shows that Moses sister is named Mariam.
PeaceOk agreed, what is the other Amram of the the Torah? There is no verse in the Quran that says the sister of Moses is called Miriam. Who is Miriam of the Torah?
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Peace,
Rami, I recommend first reading for example the commentary of Muhammed Ali's Quran translation on these verses before jumping to these faulty conclusions and believing all these misunderstandings of the Quran.
Mary is not a name but a title. It means baroness/lady. For example, Mary Magdelene means Lady of Magdelene, meaning she was the ruling person of that area. Mary belongs to the family of Aaron, the priestly class called the Levi. This was the royal bloodline and was and is very important in ancient and modern Judaism.
Modern descendendants of the Levi are for example the Cohen family who occupy high offices all around the world. The major of Amsterdam, capital of Holland, is a Cohen.
Jesus, or Yoshua was a priest of the Aaron family who led a rebellion against the Roman occupance in Palestine. The persons who led the first revolt in 66 were family of Jesus and also part of the royal bloodline.
The New-Testament is a Roman propaganda story that tries to twist the original story by making Jesus pro-Roman instead of the main rebellion leader. An amazing task which has succeeded. How can Jesus walk through Galilea peacefully while in Roman records it is recorded as the main area of rebellion and of constant fighting? Also the Mount of Olives which Jesus and his companions occupy a lot, was mentioned as a headquarters of rebellion.
I recommend these books
http//www.amazon.com/James-Brother-Jesus-Unlocking-Christianity/dp/014025773X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226678826&sr=1-1
http//www.amazon.com/Jesus-Empire-Kingdom-World-Disorder/dp/080063490X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226678969&sr=1-1
http//www.amazon.com/New-Testament-Code-Damascus-Covenant/dp/1842931164/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226678826&sr=1-3
http//www.amazon.com/Magdalene-Legacy-Bloodline-Conspiracy-Revelations/dp/1578634032/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226678904&sr=1-1
Agreed and thanks for the links.
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What I read long time ago is that calling Mary sister of Aaron is merely a way of saying that she belongs to a priestly caste or family. I can't see any contradiction in calling mary that, whether it is just done in the Quran or whether it was a usage in Mary's time.
The Quran is not confusing two events. It is using certain expression.
Salaam
This is the best answer...
Mary a.k.a Miriam is a member of "Aaron Order/Family/Group".
Aaron Order is a well respected order within Jewish Culture at that period, known for their 'strict' moral code and virtues.Calling somebody "Sister / Brother of <put your order/group here>"
is a habit that still exist in many christians sects / culture even today. -
It is true that Miriam the sister of Moses and Aaron is not the same as Miriam(Mary) the mother of Jesus. So why the connection? Why is the mother of Jesus called the sister of Aaron? Apart from saying that "calling Mary sister of Aaron is merely a way of saying that she belongs to a priestly caste or family", is there a deeper meaning?
The Jewish Encyclopedia states that Miriam was "regarded as the savior of Israel". Given the importance of Jesus Christ, making such a link between the two Miriams/Marys is certainly significant. Moreover
Eusebius, writing in Palestine early in the fourth century, knew Christians who understood Psalm 110.3 differently. The Hebrew mrhm, ?from the womb?, was read as mrym, ?Miriam?, which is perfectly possible if they were using the archaic Hebrew script in which the letters h and y are similar. The line would then have been ?With dew I have begotten you as the Morning Star from Miriam/Mary.?
http//www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/USU_Barker.pdfNow to be 'begotten' in this sense is to shine with the Light of Allah; that is all. (" 'While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.' These things Jesus spoke ..." John 1236) Yet significantly to shine with the Light of Allah is described as being born of Miriam (compare Muhammad's wives are the mothers of the believers 336). This is why it is significant that the mother of the Messiah is also called Miriam/Mary. The mother of Jesus renews Judaism by being ordained by God to bring the Light of Allah back to Judaism by giving birth to Christ.
However, Mary the mother of Christ is not actually the same person as Miriam the sister of Aaron and Moses. For example, when John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah, he said that he wasn't (John 121), yet Jesus described him as being the "Elijah who is to come" (Matthew 1113-14; also the prophesy about Elijah coming in Malachi 45, 6 is quoted at the annunciation of John's conception, Luke 117). So we can see that John the Baptist was not the same person as Elijah, but was called Elijah because as Elijah was a great man in Israel, so too would John be (there is a lot of symbolism going on in Elijah, but I can write about this later if you want).
It is the fulfilment of a symbol that is implied. The Torah had the symbol, the Gospel the Reality.
Richard
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It is true that Miriam the sister of Moses and Aaron is not the same as Miriam(Mary) the mother of Jesus. So why the connection? Why is the mother of Jesus called the sister of Aaron? Apart from saying that "calling Mary sister of Aaron is merely a way of saying that she belongs to a priestly caste or family", is there a deeper meaning?
The Jewish Encyclopedia states that Miriam was "regarded as the savior of Israel". Given the importance of Jesus Christ, making such a link between the two Miriams/Marys is certainly significant. Moreover
Now to be 'begotten' in this sense is to shine with the Light of Allah; that is all. (" 'While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.' These things Jesus spoke ..." John 1236) Yet significantly to shine with the Light of Allah is described as being born of Miriam (compare Muhammad's wives are the mothers of the believers 336). This is why it is significant that the mother of the Messiah is also called Miriam/Mary. The mother of Jesus renews Judaism by being ordained by God to bring the Light of Allah back to Judaism by giving birth to Christ.
However, Mary the mother of Christ is not actually the same person as Miriam the sister of Aaron and Moses. For example, when John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah, he said that he wasn't (John 121), yet Jesus described him as being the "Elijah who is to come" (Matthew 1113-14; also the prophesy about Elijah coming in Malachi 45, 6 is quoted at the annunciation of John's conception, Luke 117). So we can see that John the Baptist was not the same person as Elijah, but was called Elijah because as Elijah was a great man in Israel, so too would John be (there is a lot of symbolism going on in Elijah, but I can write about this later if you want).
It is the fulfilment of a symbol that is implied. The Torah had the symbol, the Gospel the Reality.
Richard
Thank you Richard for this excellent explanation.
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Hey friends,
One of the very strong arguments placed against the Quran is that of Miriam. Miriam, in the Quran, as you already know is simply the daughter of Amram and aslo called the sister of Aaron. How can that be if Jesus comes ages later? The weirdest thing that the sister of Moses is mentioned but not by name!?2039 ?That she should cast him in the basket, and cast the basket in the sea, so the sea will place him on the shore, where an enemy of Mine and his will take him. And I placed upon you a love from Me. And that you shall be raised under My eye.?
2040 ?That your sister should follow, and say ?Shall I guide you to a person who will nurse him? Thus We returned you to your mother, so that she may be pleased and not be sad. And you killed a person, but We saved you from harm and We tested you greatly. So it was that you stayed with the people of Midyan for many years, then you came here by fate O Moses.?
2041 ?And I Have raised you for Myself.?
2810 And Moses? mother?s heart became anxious, that she nearly revealed her identity. But We strengthened her heart, so that she would be of the believers.
2811 And she said to his sister ?Follow his path.? So she watched him from afar, while they did not notice.
2812 And We forbade him from accepting all the nursing mothers. Then his sister said ?Shall I lead you to a family that can nurse him for you, and take good care of him?"See how the Quran doesn't mention the name of the sister of Moses and never mention his father, but we know that Aaron is the brother of Moses! So why does the Torah insist that Amram is the father and Miriam is the sister of Moses?? Even if you say that Miriam is from the 'Aaronic sisterhood', you still have to explain the Amram's daughter part which still pushes Miriam back in time. Or maybe Joshua is Jesus which can put an end to the NT faster than ever! This is another argument of the mutual exclusivesness between the Quran and the Torah. It is one way or the other. Or maybe its another Aaron and another Miriam and another Amram (creepy) brickwall What do you think?
Peace.
Mary, mother of Jesus or sister of Aaron?
by Rasheed,
Question How did the Quran reveal the story of the birth of Jesus so accurately?
The Quran depicts the scene of the virgin Maryam (Mary) bringing her new born baby, Jesus, to meet her people and they reprmanded her saying
And the pangs of childbirth drove her unto the trunk of the palm-tree. She said Oh, would that I had died ere this and had become a thing of naught, forgotten!
Then (one) cried unto her from below her, saying Grieve not! Thy Lord hath placed a rivulet beneath thee,
And shake the trunk of the palm-tree toward thee, thou wilt cause ripe dates to fall upon thee.
So eat and drink and be consoled. And if thou meetest any mortal, say Lo! I have vowed a fast unto the Beneficent, and may not speak this day to any mortal.Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said O Mary! Thou hast come with a strange thing,
O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man, nor was thy mother a harlot.
But she pointed to him. They said How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle? He said Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet; And He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and almsgiving so long as I live; And dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me insolent, unblessed; And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.(The Quran, 19 23-33, Maryam)
Some Western writers and orientalist critics of Islam suggested that this was a huge error on the part of Prophet Muhammad, claiming that he confused Maryam dughter of Imran and the sister of Moses, with Maryam daughter of Imran, the mother of Jesus. Peace be upon them all.
However, recent discoveries and translation of the ancient Dead Sea Scrolls, completely vindicate the Quranic narration of the story and explains why Mary (Maryam) was addressed as ?sister of Aaron? ?..
The Dead Sea Scrolls reveal that the Jewish communities at that time , referred to their religous leaders as the ?Priests of Aaron?. It is also revealed that they were expecting the arrival of TWO messiahs, known as the Messiah of Aaron and the Messiah of David (see scroll 1QS IX 9?11).
Another quotation from Dead Sea Scrolls (Community Rules Document) spoke of?In the society of the Yahad there shall be twelve laymen and three priests who are blameless in the light of all that has been revealed from the whole Law, so as to work truth, righteousness, justice, living-kindness, and humility, one with another. They are to preserve faith in the land with self-control and a broken spirit, atoning for sin by working justice and suffering affliction. They are to walk with all by the standard of truth and the dictates proper to the age.?
?When such men as these come to be in Israel, then shall the society of the Yahad truly be established, an ?eternal planing? (Jubilees 1626), a temple for Israel, and ? mystery! ? a Holy of Holies for Aaron; true witnesses to justice, chosen by God?s will to atone for the land and to recompense the wicked their due. They will be ?the tested wall, the precious cornerstone? (Isa. 2816) whose foundations shall neither be shaken nor swayed, a fortress, a Holy of Holies for Aaron, all of them knowing the Covenant of Justice and thereby offering a sweet savor. They shall be a blameless and true house in Israel, ?upholding the covenant of eternal statutes. They shall be an acceptable sacrifice, atoning for the land and ringing in the verdict against evil, so that perversity ceases to exist.?
- Community Rule 1QS 8.1-10
I will also quote the Damascus Document -from the Dead Scrolls- in another remarkable text
?The Lord remembered the covenant of the ancients, and raised from Aaron men of understanding, and from Israel men of wisdom. He made His law known to them, and they dug the well. ?The well that princes dug, that the nobles of the people delved with the staff? (Numbers 211. ? The ?well? is the Torah, its ?diggers? are the repentant ones of Israel who left the Land of Judah and dwelt in the Land of Damascus.?
- Damascus Document ? Geniza manuscript A 6.2-5
Mary was descendant of a highly regarded religous family. Is it any wonder that she was addressed as ?sister of Aaron??. It seems to be the natural thing for those who knew her piety and zeal to the Law to address her in that way.
In fact, referring to Mary as sister of Aaron, is an amazing Quranic narration which prophet Muhammad (pbuh) could not have known without revelation, and is one remarkable demonstration of the fact that the Quran is indeed the revealed words of GOD, exalted.
http//hardquestions.wordpress.com/2007/10/11/7/
we need to look into alternative sources to understand the Quran and the audience the Quran is refering to on occasions.
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Thank you Richard for this excellent explanation.
Thank you for the encouragement. Life is hell at the moment and the encouragement is welcome! But it is true, Christians should be praising the Quran for such things, not criticising it. Here's some more
• Quran And the pangs of childbirth drove her unto the trunk of the palm-tree. She said Oh, would that I had died ere this and had become a thing of naught, forgotten!
Bible Song of Songs 85 "Who is this coming up from the wilderness Leaning on her beloved?" "Beneath the apple tree I awakened you; There your mother was in labor with you, There she was in labor and gave you birth.This is the symbolism of the temple the 7 branched lampstand the menorah was symbolically described as a tree, of varying kinds. 'Giving birth' in the temple refers to priests shining with the Light of Allah in the temple. The menorah 'tree' was by the Holy of Holies in the temple, hence they shone with Light ('were born' under the Menorah. What was symbolized in the temple came true with Mary and Jesus.
• Then (one) cried unto her from below her, saying Grieve not! Thy Lord hath placed a rivulet beneath thee,
Since ancient times there has been an icon of Mary the Life-giving Spring, coming from the same symbolism as this.
• And shake the trunk of the palm-tree toward thee, thou wilt cause ripe dates to fall upon thee.
In the Song of Songs 77-8 the female being addresses is described as being a palm tree.
However, Mary is not only described as being the 'sister of Aaron', but also as the 'daughter of Imran' Sura 6612. This does seems to imply that it is not referring to some special religious group (such as Elizabeth the mother of John the Baptist being referred to as "from the daughters of Aaron", Luke 15, probably a group of women devoted to certain aspects of the temple). And here is why I think so
It is also revealed that they were expecting the arrival of TWO messiahs, known as the Messiah of Aaron and the Messiah of David (see scroll 1QS IX 911).
And there were two Messiahs - remember the word messiah just means anointed. The original anointing oil used to anoint priests in Solomon's temple was lost, so the priests in the second temple (516bc to 70ad) were not anointed. The Magi visiting Jesus as a baby has been suggested as the lost anointing being returned (somewhere in the book "Christmas, The Original Story", written by a former President of the Old Testament Society I know it was this book which caused me to look more into Islam).
We know who the Messiah of David was, Jesus. But what about the Messiah of Aaron?
There is a reference to a messiah in the Book of Daniel, 924-27. It talks about 'seventy weeks', which refers to 70 times 7 days. Now the Day of Atonement occurred once a year, and so a symbolic way of talking about years was to refer to days. Basing herself on the old Jubilee (49 years) cycle, the same former President of the Old Testament Society writes
The seventy weeks of years, 490 years, were ten Jubilees, and the alternative way of reckoning this period was as ten Jubilees. Jewish tradition remembered that the 490 years ended in 68CE; calculation from the second temple Jubilee sequence beginning in 424BCE gives 66CE. A two year discrepancy is hardly significant in the light of what this implies, namely that the tenth Jubilee began in 17/19 CE. In other words, tenth Jubilee fervour and expectations were the context for the ministry of Jesus.
http//www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/JesusAndTheJubilee.pdfNow we read also in the Book of Daniel that
"And after the sixty-two weeks {after a previous 7 weeks} Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering..."
Daniel 926-27People have tried to link this with Jesus, but it does not fit. The 69th 'week' (out of the 70) started in about 66-7=59AD. In the 'middle of the week' is therefore about 59+3.5=62.5 = 62/63AD. Yet there was someone significant who was killed by the Jews then James the (half) brother of Jesus. He was killed in 62AD. He was also a Jewish High Priest (hence the Aaron link)
Since it was unlawful for anyone but the High Priest of the Temple to enter the Holy of Holies, and then only once a year on Yom Kippur, Jerome's quotation from Hegesippus indicates that James was considered a High Priest. The Pseudo-Clementine Recognitions suggest this.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_the_Just#LifeIt is also recorded that Jerusalem was safe from the Romans while he was alive. But because the Jews murdered him, God removed his protection from the city and in 70AD the Romans destroyed Jerusalem with its temple ("the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering".
The thing is, Miriam is linked with the king (David, or Moses) and Aaron. Hence it would appear that whereas old Israel had Miriam, Moses, and Aaron, the renewed Israel had Mary, Jesus, and James - symbolised by calling Mary not only 'sister of Aaron' but also as being from Imran.
Richard
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Salaam
I never understood what Joseph is doing in genealogy of Jesus in Gospel.
Where is Imran, father of Mary, in Gospel ? where is Aaron, brother of Mary, in Gospel ?Peace
Imran is the father of Miriam the sister of Moses and Aaron, who lived 1300Bc or so. Mary wife of Joseph is described as being the daughter of Imran and sister of Aaron because of the great significance Miriam had to ancient Israel. That significance has its fulfilment in Mary wife of Joseph. Hence the link is made. We have to approach the ancient writings not only with a learned mind, but also a simple heart ...
Richard
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No, Maryam is not called daughter of 3imran, what is very clearly said is that she is the daughter of the wife of 3imran. The wife of 3inram is no symbolic thing just as the wife of Ibrahim and the wife of Lut and all the wives mentioned in the Qur'an are the wives of the men that the Qur'an says. No honorific ble, bla, bla, please. The honourable Qur'an does nto warrant it.
Maryam, the mother of 3isa bin Maryam is daughter of the wife of 3imran, who makes the title of the sura 'aal 3imran, that is the man to whose family belong Harun and Musa, who are brothers.
Once again. It is nto upon the Qur'an to fit the Bible, but the other way around, if it is that bible can fit anything. God in the honourable Qur'an gurantees the Qur'an for ever from tampering it does not give suh gurantee to any other scripture. And the Qur'an is very clear. In order to make it say things to fit the bible, it has to be contorted. No need for it. It is nicely understandably just as long as you do not force it to fit any ahistoric fantasy.
I strongly recommend two books published made available to forum readers up to now.
Salaam
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Peace
In many cultures before Jesus there have been stories of saviours being born through virgin birth. Many here have used this to negate the birth and life of Jesus ( due to existence of such stories prior to Jesus) on the basis that the story of Jesus in the Bible and Quran should have been drawn from these.
Quran says much before the arrival of the Arab Messenger he was predicted in the previous books. In the same way Jesus could have been predicted in books prior to him too, leading to many such virgin births prior to him, whenever it could have been used to hide a child born out of wedlock and to get a girl out of sticky situation.
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Salam Rami,
There are two different Mariums being referenced. There is Moses and Aaron's sister, Marium, who was a Prophetess.
And there is Jesus' Mother who is named Marium as well.Agree..
Maryam / Miriam is a common Jewish / Israelites name even up until today.
There isn't any dilemma here..There are many 'characters' in the Quran which is not being explicitly mentioned by name.
As it's the lesson that's important and not the name of the character itself.It can be Park-Jung-Hwa or Karina Kapoor for all I care, as it doesn't really matter..
Salam / Peace