Salat according to Chapter 107
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Peace Hope,
If it meant "to the lowest point" then it should have been "yakhirroon 3ala al-athqaan"/they fall upon their chins. It is "yakhirroon li al-athqaan"/they fall to/with their chins, which does not imply "to the lowest point" although it could include that.
In the examples you gave, in 1626 it says "3alayhim"/upon them, which means on their persons, and not the lowest point which would be the ground. In 2231, it says "fell from sky", which does not imply the lowest point. Birds can snatch something from the air before it hits the ground too. Wind can blow something from air before it hits ground too.
If you see the meaning of "kharra" in classical Arabic dictionaries, they give the meaning of "fall down from a higher point to a lower point", and not "fall from a higher point to the lowest point" and not necessarily "to the ground". Please see page 351 under "kh-ra-ra in PRL http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
The context determines if it is to the ground, for example 7143 and 3414, or from a higher point to a lower point, for example 1626, 2231, and 17107.
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Peace Rami,
So the word 'sujood' have different meanings depending what the sujood is to. If it is a physical object, it is a physical prostration. If it is a person, so it is doing its will and commands. If it is a recitation or a sound, so its listening to it attentively etc.
17107 Say ?Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating.?
1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from amongst the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down prostrating, and in tears.
3215 The only people who believe in Our revelations are those whom when they are reminded by them, they fall prostrating, and they glorify the praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.The people above most probably did the command below
7204 And if the Qur?an is being recited, then listen to it and pay attention, that you may receive mercy. ie. sujood!
When sujud is to an inanimate object, for example sun and moon, it is only physical (2724, 4137) but if it is to a living being, it is mental obedience + physical. 17107 combined with 7204 would mean a physical sujud + mental obedience with understanding (hearing and obeying).
According to your understanding in which you equate 7204 exactly with 17107, sujud is only "listening with attention" and will not include the obedience part. So those verses cannot be exactly equated. Sujud is listening with attention + obedience of the commands one listened to + physical sujud to the chins.
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If you see the meaning of "kharra" in classical Arabic dictionaries, they give the meaning of "fall down from a higher point to a lower point", and not "fall from a higher point to the lowest point" and not necessarily "to the ground". Please see page 351 under "kh-ra-ra in PRL http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
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Peace truthseeker
yes, right, it is not necessery falling to the ground, but what i meant, Kharaa means keep on falling till something hit or stop, like if one throw an object from a building it can fall till the ground or it can fall on the roof of a parking car or on someone head, according, but it keep falling till something stop it.
peace
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Peace Hope,
Kharaa means keep on falling till something hit or stop, like if one throw an object from a building it can fall till the ground or it can fall on the roof of a parking car or on someone head, according, but it keep falling till something stop it.
This is your own personal interpretation. Classical Arabic dictionaries do not support this as the only meaning and 2231 does not support it either. That is one of the meanings but not the only one. The actual meaning is determined by the context and "yakhirroon li al-athqaan" does not necessarily mean touching the ground. If it was "yakhirroon 3ala al-athqaan", then it would have definitely meant touching the ground.
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Peace Hope,
This is your own personal interpretation. Classical Arabic dictionaries do not support this as the only meaning and 2231 does not support it either. That is one of the meanings but not the only one. The actual meaning is determined by the context and "yakhirroon li al-athqaan" does not necessarily mean touching the ground. If it was "yakhirroon 3ala al-athqaan", then it would have definitely meant touching the ground.
Peace truthseeker
yes , i addmit i dont have a final and confident understanding for tha salat issue -\ but this is as much as i understand.
so, i would like to know ur undersatnding of the salat in general and to the "yakhirron lil-athquaan.peace
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Peace Hope,
In my understanding, "yakhirroon li al-athqaani sujjadan" can include any of the following
- Lowering the face by bending the neck until chin touches the upper chest (not necessarily in kneeling position).
- Lowering the face while kneeling by bending the back until the chin is close to the ground but not touching it.
- Lowering the face while kneeling by bending the back until the chin is touching the ground.
Any of these will fulfil that phrase. All I am saying is that "yakhirroon li al-athqaani sujjadan" does not only mean touching the chin to the ground but can refer to the other positions too. I think God has left it up to us to choose any of the positions that fulfil this command, depending on the situation and personal preference. For example, consider 2239
2239 But if you are in a state of fear, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.
How will you perform sujud during salat while walking or riding a horse? In that state, position 1 as mentioned above will fulfil "yakhirroon li al-athqaani sujjadan". What about if you are sitting in a crowded bus and performing salat? Then position 1 and 2 will fulfil the sujud. What if you are crossing a road and you hear God's revelations on a loudspeaker? Again position 1 will fulfil "yakhirroon li al-athqaani sujjadan".
Of course the mental component of sujud is more important than the physical position. If the sujud is performed with the mind not being attentive and in a state of obedience and God's commands are not obeyed in life after salat is over, then that sujud is not a sujud, even if one was banging one's chin on the ground.
As far as salat in general is concerned, my understanding is that it refers to any of the following, depending on the context
- Connection of humans/animals/creation to/with God (339, 4102-103, 56, 11114, 1778, 2441)
- Connection of humans to/with fellow humans (9103)
- Connection of God or controllers (malaika) to/with humans (3356)
I disagree with the translation "communion" by free-minds because it does not fit in all the above three kinds of salat.
I will elaborate the first kind of salat more. The timed salat of humans to/with God generally includes the following
- Pre salat washing (56)
- Certain times (11114, 1778, 2458, 1779, 629)
- Mental focus on al-masjid al-haram ("the inviolable institution of obedience"/"the truth from our Lord" (2144)
- Facing any physical direction (2115, 2177)
- Reading al-quran with understanding and attention in a moderate tone (1778, 17107-111, 7204, 443, 2945)
- Remembering, praising and glorifying God (17110-111, 2014, 2945, 629)
- Standing (qiyaam), kneeling (ruku3) and prostrating (sujud), along with mental humility and obedience (339, 4102, 243, 343, 17107)
- Shortened in a state of fear (4101-102, 2239)
- Can be performed while walking or riding in a state of fear (2239)
- Can be performed individually (339) or as a group (4102, 629)
I encourage you to undertake your own study of salat from al-quran and go through the numerous discussions in this forum about salat using the search feature. No further comments from me.
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peace t,
- Lowering the face by bending the neck until chin touches the upper chest (not necessarily in kneeling position).
2239 But if you are in a state of fear, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.
How will you perform sujud during salat while walking or riding a horse? In that state, position 1 as mentioned above will fulfil "yakhirroon li al-athqaani sujjadan".
And do you often look down at the ground when walking or riding?
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there are some vesres where the word KHARA give the impression of something is falling dramatically (ي from a high point to the lowest point which could be the groud. look at this verses
7143 So when Moses came to Our appointed time, and his Lord spoke to him, he said ?My Lord, let me look upon you.? He said ?You will not see Me, but look upon the mountain, if it stays in its place then you will see Me.? So when his Lord revealed Himself to the mountain, He caused it to crumble; thus Moses fell unconscious. When he awoke, he said ?Glory be to You, I repent to You and I am the first of those who believe.
1626 Those before them have schemed, but God came to their buildings from the foundation, thus the roof fell on top of them, and the retribution came to them from where they did not know.
2231 Monotheists to God, not setting up anything with Him. And whosoever sets-up partners with God, then it is as if he has fallen from the sky and the birds snatch him or the wind takes him to a place far off.
3414 Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the Jinn realized that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.
These examples God mentioned give me the impression of falling down to the lowest point we can reach. i dont see that just lowering the chin to the level of the chest goes with the word Khara, i think it goes more with the chn falling to the lowest point which is the ground.
For sure it have other meaning like complete, unquestionable obediance to god words., but it also have a physical meaning.May God guide us more.
peace
Peace
The verse uses the arabic word Khara, the above are some verses that shows what this word may mean, from a previous post.May God guide us all
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Good points, Rami.
Small correction, in 1071 it is "denying in al deen".
"Bi" means "with", not "in". However, one does not have to translate it as "denying with the obligation", but simply "denying the obligation".
Compare this to "kaf-fa-ra", "alif-mim-nun" and "sad-dal-qaf" being used together with "bi". -
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Selam
A little late but what article are we talking about?
Peace
There is no article. I was just trying to pin down the correct meaning of Salat through chapter 107. I concluded that Salat is the recitation of the Quran to the people in the special times prescribed in other verses. Those who listened attentively were in state of sujood. The people who listened to the Quran but didn't execute what is being ordered are the people mentioned in this particular chapter.
Peace.
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There is no article. I was just trying to pin down the correct meaning of Salat through chapter 107. I concluded that Salat is the recitation of the Quran to the people in the special times prescribed in other verses. Those who listened attentively were in state of sujood. The people who listened to the Quran but didn't execute what is being ordered are the people mentioned in this particular chapter.
Peace.
Selam Rami
I read the whole thread and know exacly what you said. Very interesting concepts so thank you for that. I was however enquiring about viveks comment on 'salat is the act of incense burning' and there was an article to read on it.
Peace
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Peace Rami,
There is no article. I was just trying to pin down the correct meaning of Salat through chapter 107. I concluded that Salat is the recitation of the Quran to the people in the special times prescribed in other verses. Those who listened attentively were in state of sujood. The people who listened to the Quran but didn't execute what is being ordered are the people mentioned in this particular chapter.
Great, you got it! Now everything about "salat" should become crystal clear. For example, I hope that everyone would also see that when Chapter 96 puts "reading" in contrast of preventing people from "salat" it is actually about "salat" in contrast to preventing people from it.
Peace,
Ayman
