My argument for 3 prayers

Mr_Deen

"You shall strive in the cause of God as you should. He has blessed you, and imposed no hardship in your religion; the RELIGION OF YOUR FATHER ABRAHAM . Abraham is the one who named you "Muslims" in the beginning. Thus, the messenger serves as witness among you, just as you serve as a witness among the people. Therefore, you shall observe the Salat prayers, give the Zakat charity, and hold fast to God; He is your Lord; the best Lord, and the best supporter." 2278

The religion of Abraham, pre-judaic prophet.

What we know of this religion today, is the religions known as judaism, and more recently, christianity.
Both these groups of people, seem to have traditions based around 3 prayers pr. day.
The prayers are usually done, morning, midday - usually combined with dinner, and evening.

The Quran states http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/quranindex.html "prayer / times a day"

011.114
YUSUFALI And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night For those things, that are good remove those that are evil Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord)

We see here, that things haven't changed. Morning, Midday (end of day) evening (approaches of the night).

Wakas

This topic has been discussed in many many pages, and the vast majority of long term members hold the view of (minimum) 2 times per day.

I recommend reading the past discussions.

Mr_Deen

hm!

IronSky

Peace to all,

I actually think its 5 times a day, which is probably the only thing I really agree with the traditionalists on, I know there is a verse in the Quran thast s specifically states something about a middle prayer, so their would have to be an odd number total of 3 or 5 prayers, and i think 5 is probably right, which is what I try to pray, doesnt mean im right or others are wrong thoiugh, only God knows.

Kurt

Mr_Deen

This is ridicolous. -

Mr_Deen

http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/quranindex.html
times of day of, 11114, 1778, 1779, 20130, 2436, 2458, 3017-18, 3216, 3818, 5039-40, 5117, 5248-49, 732-4, 7625-26

Clearly three times

Related to washing before prayer
024.058
YUSUFALI O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess, and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence), on three occasions before morning prayer; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the late-night prayer these are your three times of undress outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other Thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

Establish prayer
011.114
YUSUFALI And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night For those things, that are good remove those that are evil Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord)

Without middle prayer

017.078
YUSUFALI Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.

017.079
YUSUFALI And pray in the small watches of the morning (it would be) an additional prayer (or spiritual profit) for thee soon will thy Lord raise thee to a Station of Praise and Glory!

Without middle time, glorify
030.017
YUSUFALI So (give) glory to Allah, when ye reach eventide and when ye rise in the morning;

024.036
YUSUFALI (Lit is such a Light) in houses, which Allah hath permitted to be raised to honour; for the celebration, in them, of His name In them is He glorified in the mornings and in the evenings, (again and again),-

050.039
YUSUFALI Bear, then, with patience, all that they say, and celebrate the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting.

076.025
YUSUFALI And celebrate the name of thy Lord morning and evening,

Two "praising the Lord", not morning time
030.018
YUSUFALI Yea, to Him be praise, in the heavens and on earth; and in the late afternoon and when the day begins to decline.

038.018
YUSUFALI It was We that made the hills declare, in unison with him, Our Praises, at eventide and at break of day,

Five times "praising the Lord", Are these separate times, or the same times, in poetical repetition? (first two times, then three times)

020.130
YUSUFALI Therefore be patient with what they say, and celebrate (constantly) the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun, and before its setting; yea, celebrate them for part of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day that thou mayest have (spiritual) joy.

Intuitive prayer

032.016
YUSUFALI Their limbs do forsake their beds of sleep, the while they call on their Lord, in Fear and Hope and they spend (in charity) out of the sustenance which We have bestowed on them.

051.018 (error in the index)
YUSUFALI And in the hour of early dawn, they (were found) praying for Forgiveness;

052.048
YUSUFALI Now await in patience the command of thy Lord for verily thou art in Our eyes and celebrate the praises of thy Lord the while thou standest forth,

073.002
YUSUFALI Stand (to prayer) by night, but not all night,-

073.003
YUSUFALI Half of it,- or a little less,

073.004
YUSUFALI Or a little more; and recite the Qur'an in slow, measured rhythmic tones.

076.026
YUSUFALI And part of the night, prostrate thyself to Him; and glorify Him a long night through.

I also remember a verse in the Quran about middle prayer, and to especially guard it. Maybe I missed it in the index.
Quickly compiled, but you get the idea.

So, apart from intuitive prayer, and looking at previous renditions of Abrahamic faith, 3 seems like the definitive number.

Al_Khidr

This topic has been discussed in many many pages, and the vast majority of long term members hold the view of (minimum) 2 times per day.

I recommend reading the past discussions.

Salaam Mr. Deen

Wakas was right this subject has been addressed many times. Wakas indicated that the vast majority of people in here accept 2 Salaat as a minimum. This is new because it used to be 3. I never had seen so many 1,2,3,4 Salaat Theories in my life until I came across Progressive Muslims.

Nevertheless for those who are unaware I have addressed this subject and clearly refuted it using Qur?aan alone

Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaattheoryexposed.htm

I have also debated Progressive Muslims in this forum which can be viewed here

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12200.0

Wakas

This is new because it used to be 3.

Did it? News to me.

The same Al Khidr who was banned from the forum? I guess we will see how long you last this time.

Mr_Deen

Revised version (had some more time)

http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/quranindex.html
times of day of, 11114, 1778, 1779, 20130, 2436, 2458, 3017-18, 3216, 3818, 5039-40, 5117, 5248-49, 732-4, 7625-26

First, middle, last

011.114
YUSUFALI And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night For those things, that are good remove those that are evil Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord)

017.078 (is this a good translation?)
YUSUFALI Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.

First

017.079
YUSUFALI And pray in the small watches of the morning (it would be) an additional prayer (or spiritual profit) for thee soon will thy Lord raise thee to a Station of Praise and Glory!

First, middle
050.039
YUSUFALI Bear, then, with patience, all that they say, and celebrate the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting.

First, last

024.058
YUSUFALI O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess, and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence), on three occasions before morning prayer; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the late-night prayer these are your three times of undress outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other Thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

030.017
YUSUFALI So (give) glory to Allah, when ye reach eventide and when ye rise in the morning;

024.036
YUSUFALI (Lit is such a Light) in houses, which Allah hath permitted to be raised to honour; for the celebration, in them, of His name In them is He glorified in the mornings and in the evenings, (again and again),-

076.025
YUSUFALI And celebrate the name of thy Lord morning and evening,

middle, last

030.018
YUSUFALI Yea, to Him be praise, in the heavens and on earth; and in the late afternoon and when the day begins to decline.

038.018
YUSUFALI It was We that made the hills declare, in unison with him, Our Praises, at eventide and at break of day,

First, middle, last, first, middle

020.130
YUSUFALI Therefore be patient with what they say, and celebrate (constantly) the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun, and before its setting; yea, celebrate them for part of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day that thou mayest have (spiritual) joy.

Intuitive prayer

032.016
YUSUFALI Their limbs do forsake their beds of sleep, the while they call on their Lord, in Fear and Hope and they spend (in charity) out of the sustenance which We have bestowed on them.

051.018 (error in the index)
YUSUFALI And in the hour of early dawn, they (were found) praying for Forgiveness;

052.048
YUSUFALI Now await in patience the command of thy Lord for verily thou art in Our eyes and celebrate the praises of thy Lord the while thou standest forth,

073.002
YUSUFALI Stand (to prayer) by night, but not all night,-

073.003
YUSUFALI Half of it,- or a little less,

073.004
YUSUFALI Or a little more; and recite the Qur'an in slow, measured rhythmic tones.

076.026
YUSUFALI And part of the night, prostrate thyself to Him; and glorify Him a long night through.

I also remember a verse in the Quran about middle prayer, and to especially guard it. Maybe I missed it in the index.
Quickly compiled, but you get the idea.

So, apart from intuitive prayer, and looking at previous renditions of Abrahamic faith, 3 seems like the definitive number.

addition Also, the prayer direction was changed (from jewish tradition), so it would indicate that jewish tradition were respected, and changed.

Alen

Peace to all,
I actually think its 5 times a day, which is probably the only thing I really agree with the traditionalists on, I know there is a verse in the Quran thast s specifically states something about a middle prayer, so their would have to be an odd number total of 3 or 5 prayers, and i think 5 is probably right, which is what I try to pray, doesnt mean im right or others are wrong thoiugh, only God knows.
Kurt

Peace.
Respectfully.

Brother Tanveer and i have had this discussion.
This is what he told meWa alaykum assalaam wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu brother Alen,

Quote
I hope you're not too busy, but what about the middle prayer? I pray the middle prayer, do you? I mean, i read some stuff on freeminds and some say the AL-WUSTA refers to middle prayer, some say it doesn't.

I do pray the middle prayer but some guys here made some pretty strong arguments.

"al-wusta" can mean "middle" but it can also mean "best/balanced/moderate" according to classical arabic dictionaries. What it means in al-qur'aan has to be determined according to its context of usage and what similar words mean in other places in al-qur'aan.

I would urge you to look up all the verses where the words derived from the root WST occur and you will find out that in al-qur'aan, those words do not mean "middle" but they have the meaning of "best/balanced/moderate".

Please look up the following article on salat which explains the above nicely

http//www.free-minds.org/contact.htm

I will paste the appropriate excerpt from the article as follows

WHAT IS AS SALATUL <WUSTA>?

May be there is no need, after the above explanation for the timing of salat, to talk about this expression which is mentioned in 2238. But, because of the misleading translation that has been given to it, we better check it as well. This phrase has been understood as MIDDLE PRAYER. We will, GW, see that is has nothing to do with this meaning. So, let?s go

THE MEANING OF <WUSTA> IN THE QURAN

In 589, God informs us that He will not call us to account for what is void in our oaths, but that, He will call us to account for our deliberate oaths and we have to do something for the expiation. Here is that verse (tran.).

?God will not call you to account for what is void in your oaths. But He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the (average) BEST for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, then fast for three days??589.

The word average in brackets is the one usually used in the translations. The word best, emphasized, is the one I think is closer to the meaning. Both these words ( average and best ) are the translation for <AWSAT>. We can see this expiation stands in front of freeing a slave. It is clear that God asks us, if this case happens, to feed and clothe indigent people from the best of what we feed and clothe our family. Remember! it is EXPIATION.

Check this understanding with 2267.

? O ye who believe! Give of the GOOD THINGS which ye have earned, and of the fruits of the earth which We have produced for you, and do not aim at anything which is bad, out of it ye may give something, when you yourselves would not receive it except with closed eyes. And know that God is free of all wants and Worthy of all praise.?

A DERIVATIVE OF THE WORD <WUSTA>

In sura 68 (Al Qalam) God informs us about the people of the garden that He had tried when they resolved to gather the fruits of the garden in the early morning. Verse 26 Al Qalam goes;

?But when they saw the garden they said ? we have surly lost our way indeed we are deprived. Said AWSATUHUM ?Did not I say to you, ?Why not glorify God??

You see, if we take the meaning of MIDDLE for this word then, in this case, it would mean; ?Said the middle among them.? Does this have any sense?

Let us take the other meaning the BEST IN QUALITIES among them, THE MOST JUST among them. In this case, the verse would be (translated) ?Said the most JUST among them?. Let?s see if this one has a sense. Why does God call him the most just among these people? The answer is Because he, (the most just among them) SAID ? DID NOT I TELL YOU ?WHY NOT GLORIFY GOD??

? Which word would you put here, middle or the most just? (The best in qualities and moderate are possible here because they carry almost the same meaning.)

ANOTHER DERIVATIVE OF THE WORD <WUSTA>

Now, we will, GW, see a very good link of meaning which provides a good clarification of the meaning of the word under discussion.

In 2143 stands

?Thus have We made of you an umma JUSTLY BALANCED <UMMATAN WASATAN> That ye might be witnesses over the nations and the messenger a witness over yourselves.?

Try to remove JUSTLY BALANCED and put MIDDLE then see if it makes sense.

Let us see the LINK MEANING in 3110;

?Ye are the best of people, <KHAYRA UMMATAN> evolved for mankind. Enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believe in God??

As we can see, the word used here is <KHAYRA> and not <WASATN> and this what I call ?link meaning?. Compare <UMMATAN WASTAN> and <KHAYRA UMMATAN>.

Is this not clear enough?

?Thus do We make plain our revelation, that they may say ?You have studied deep,? and that this may become clear to men of understanding?6105.

This is the system of <TASREEFUL AYAT>, the way Almighty explains His revelation.

Let us now go back to the phrase we are investigating here.

First, let us see the way it is traditionally translated or understood

?Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers. ESPECIALLY the MIDDLE PRAYER, and STAND BEFORE GOD IN A DEVOUT (frame of mind).

As we can see from this understanding, we should GUARD STRICTLY OUR PRAYERS. BUT there is one of them that we should, GUARD STRICTLY ESPECIALLY!

Does this sound logical? Let us answer Yes, it is logical. God instructs us to guard STRICTLY our prayers but ONE OF THEM we should guard ESPECIALLY STRICTLY.

When we accept this ?logical? explanation, another logical question appears

Which one is that ESPECIALLY STRICTLY?

Well, the answer is very simple. The MIDDLE ONE!

But, which ONE of them is the MIDDLE ONE?

As we saw in our clarification of the timing of the prayers, there are only TWO DAILY PRAYERS and FRIDAY (CONGREGATION) PRAYER. But, this is our explanation. Let us look at towards other understandings. THREE, FIVE, or WHATSOEVER.

The question is still Which one is the MIDDLE ONE? And how consistent is this?

Here comes the KEY PHRASE in this verse; AND STAND BEFORE GOD IN A DEVOUT (frame of mind). Which prayer does this phrase refer to? The middle one or EVERY PRAYER?

This what, always, happens when you allow one thing that is not logical. The thread of nonsense continues endlessly.

Now, let?s take the other understanding, the meaning that the Quran gives to this word.

? Guard strictly your prayers, WA the moderate (or justly balanced) and stand before God in devout (frame of mind)?

Compare this idea with 17110.

<AS SALATUL WUSTA> is the pattern for each prayer a believer should observe and WA, here does not mean that this is another prayer. It has the same meaning as in 11114 <tarafey?yin nahari WA zulafam minal leyli> as well as in 2148 ; <Wa lagad ateyna Musa wa Harunal furqana WA dhiya?a WA zikra lil mutagina>. The same furqan is <dhiya?> as well as <zikra lil mutagina>.

Please read the relevant portion of my article on salat timings again at the following link

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6028.msg92976#msg92976

I will also quote the relevant part from my article as follows

WHAT ABOUT SALAAT AL-WUSTA ?

"Salaat al-wusta" is WRONGLY translated as the "middle" prayer. "Wusta" is derived from the root "WST". The usage of the words derived from the root WST in the Qur'aan indicates that it always means "best" or "balanced" (589, 6826, 2143). For details, please see under the heading of SALAT AL-WUSTA in the article at the following link

http//www.free-minds.org/contact.htm (read this article after finishing my post please)

Please see the following thread also

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1171

Also if you examine 2238 closely you will find that it supports "wusta" meaning "best" or "most excellent" or "balanced" and not the name of an additional "middle" salat.

2238 Preserve/guard the salawaat (plural of salaat), and the best/balanced/moderate salat, and stand devoutly for God.

There are 2 proofs from the Qur'aan, that salat al-wusta is not an additional salaat

FIRST PROOF

All the "salaat" are automatically included in "salawaat"; it does not make any sense to say "and the middle salaat" after already mentioning all salaat; that would be redundant and illogical. "Salawaat" does not necessarily mean more than 2 salaat per day either. "Salawaat" can be referring to all the "salaat" in a person's life, e.g. in a month I might uphold sixty salaat; "salawaat" is referring to all those salaat.

SECOND PROOF

The word "wa" in the Qur'aan does not always separate 2 different subjects; it has also been used in the Qur'aan to separate two attributes of the same subject or to add explanation of a previously mentioned subject to clarify it.

For example

4113 And God has sent down to you the Book and the wisdom, and He has taught you that which you did not know. God's grace upon you is great.

Here the Book and the Wisdom refer to the same Qur'aan, they are not two different books. So Allah is mentioning two attributes of the same Qur'aan, separated by "wa". The Qur'aan is a book and it contains wisdom. So here the Book AND the Wisdom is not two different books but attributes of the same Qur'aan.

Another example

2148 And We had given Moses and Aaron the Criterion and a shining light and reminder for the righteous.

Here the Criterion is the shining light is the reminder. They are not 3 different books.

So in 2238 when Allah says "guard/preserve the salawaat AND salaat al-wusta", salaat al-wusta is an attribute of the salawaat, meaning THE BEST/BALANCED SALAT. The God wants that ALL OF OUR SALAT SHOULD BE BEST/BALANCED (upheld in the best possible or balanced manner). Salaat al-wusta is the pattern for EACH salaat that a believer should uphold, and here in this verse does not mean another salaat.

Even if this verse is wrongly translated as the middle salaat, then it would become very ambiguous to determine which salaat is the middle salaat. Where does it say in al-qur'aan that salaat al-fajr is the FIRST salaat ? WHICH SALAAT WOULD BE THE MIDDLE SALAAT IF THERE ARE 3 OR 5 SALAATS ? Depending on which salaat we ARBITRARILY declare as the first salaat, the middle salaat could be ANY salaat. How come Allah did not tell us which salaat is the middle salaat ? So how can we specially guard a salaat if it is unknown which salaat is being referred to as the middle salaat ?
So as you can see, there are two problems with "al-wusta" meaning "middle" in 2238.

If "al-wusta" here means "middle" then the meaning of the entire verse becomes illogical as I have shown above
If "al-wusta" here means "middle" then WHICH SALAT IS THE MIDDLE ONE ? Please show from al-qur'aan where Allah has specified which salat is the middle one; and if Allah has not specified which one is the middle, then how can we follow the command in 2238 if we don't know which specific salat is being referred to as "al-wusta" ?
I will answer your remaining questions about other verses soon insha Allah in a separate reply.
Salaamun alaikum, jazak Allah,
Tanveer

Mr_Deen

Brother Alen.

Your play on words, doesn't change things I find obvious. I'm sorry.
For instance, your argumentation here, and Tanveers, and the author of the article, sorry but I disagree.

"Thus have We made of you an umma JUSTLY BALANCED." is good.
The translation, people of the middle way, I have also seen, and says the same.
Using middle here, also fits with the use of the word transgression. And again, transgression, going over the limits, exaggaration, underachievement.. etc. Middle is good.

And it may be used other places in your arguments aswell. Your argumentation is weak.

Also you seem to be linking to nonexistant items.
http//www.free-minds.org/contact.htm
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6028.msg92976#msg92976
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1171

However what I am saying is clear, without doubt.

What I see is, three times, sometimes one time is not mentionend, and atleast once they are mentioned several times. It might have something to do with the poetical language of the Quran? In any case, there is three times, referenced. And this is consistent with earlier Abrahamic faith, where also 3 prayers are performed. (And the people spoken to, at the time of Mohammed, among with the idolaters) The prayer direction was changed, probably to indicate a return to Abrahamic faith.

edit "we have made you a mainstream society" could be a modern translation, maybe? - Would also fit with the modern phrase, deviance. Indicating that this society is not deviant. Ofcourse we don't want to go too far away from the poetical language of the Quran.

barmack

Peace,

Argument for three prayer
http//www.innerstream.ca/blog/_archives/2005/11/12/1384280.html
"There is no explicit mention of mandatory prayer in the Torah. "
"The Torah enjoins us to pray, but the details of this obligation are unclear."

Peace

Al_Khidr

Did it? News to me.

The same Al Khidr who was banned from the forum? I guess we will see how long you last this time.

About being banned I can care less. You are still a joke

Mr_Deen

Please, do not aggravate.

Alen

Peace to all,
I actually think its 5 times a day, which is probably the only thing I really agree with the traditionalists on, I know there is a verse in the Quran thast s specifically states something about a middle prayer, so their would have to be an odd number total of 3 or 5 prayers, and i think 5 is probably right, which is what I try to pray, doesnt mean im right or others are wrong thoiugh, only God knows.
Kurt

Peace,
Respectfully.

I'll do some more research, God willing, before i respond again, God willing.
Peace.

belH

Nevertheless for those who are unaware I have addressed this subject and clearly refuted it using Qur?aan alone

I have also debated Progressive Muslims in this forum which can be viewed here

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12200.0

Peace

Can you answer my reply to your 5 prayer theory

Peace all
As per 3-7, believers should follow well-established meaning verses in order to know their obligated duties. Now, I know that Sunset, night, and Dawn prayers are commended in a very well-established verses. But on the other hand, Zuher and Aser time are not mentioned in well-established verses to be as time for prayers.
The article claims that The following are the verses that calls for the Zuher and Asr

(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuhr), given in 1778 and 3018
(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr), given in 2238

Qur?aan 1778 was translator in the article as follow
You shall observe the Salaat when the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Qur?aan at dawn. (Reciting) the Qur?aan at dawn is witnessed.
The red part is added by the translated and is not written in Quran; thus, if you remove them, the verse is calling for Sunset prayer.
Moreover, 30-18 has no mentioning to establish prayer.

Qur?aan 2238 was translated in the article as follow

You shall consistently observe the Salaat especially the middle Prayer (the afternoon Prayer), and devote yourselves totally to Allah alone.

Again, the red part is added by the translator and not in Quran. Thus if you ignore the added part, the middle prayer can be understood (if we refer to the well-established verses that call for Sunset, Night and Dawn prayers) as the Night Prayer.
Moreover, please note the following verse
Qur?aan 2458
O you who believe, permission must be requested by your servants and the children who have not attained puberty. This is to be done in three instances-before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another. Allah thus clarifies the revelations for you. Allah is Omniscient, Most Wise.

Now, please note the red colored words and the blue ones. If there is a prayer during noon, why God did not mention (in blue word section) as He did when speaking about the Dawn and night (red colored section)?

May God lead us to the truth.
Peace

Thank you for your prompt reply

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

I think that there are 3 prayers mentioned in the Quran.

They are mentioned together at 11114
"Establish worship at the two ends of the day and in some watches of the night..." (Pickthall)
"And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night..." (Yusuf Ali)

These are the 3 prayers.
To clarify/confirm these, I will give you further verses from the Quran.

1778 "Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night..." (Pickthall)
The transliteration is "'Aqimi A-alata Lidulki Ash-Shamsi 'Il? Ghasaqi Al-Layli". "liduluki" come from "duluk" which means "rub". I understand this as the "rubbing" of the sun against the horizon, which is between late sunset and the darkness of the night. This means that it is the night prayer. This explains the time range of the Salatul Isha.
A common misconception IMO is that this verse has been interpreted/trasnlated as meaning at noon/when the sun has passed its zenit.

The middle prayer, which is at the second end of the day (ie. before sunset/late-afternoon) is confirmed in 2238.

Also, in 2458, the names "Salatul Isha" and "Salatul Fajr" are mentioned, but only the time of Zuhr/Zohira is mentioned, although both the morning and evening prayers are mentioned. Can this be a coincidence?

This shows that according to the Quran, IMO, there is no Zuhr prayer, nor is there an Asr prayer. There are

Salatul Fajr (dawn/first end of the day)
Salatul Wusta (late afternoon/second end of the day)
Salatul Isha (between the end of sunset and the time of darkness of the night, which is in the evening)

NOTE The Quranic "layl" is not necessarily the same as "night" in English. "Layl" goes from sunset until the last momemts of dusk. This means that the "tarafay" (ends/sides) of the "nahar" (day) cannot be part of the "layl" (from sunset until the last moments of dusk) So the first end of the day is at dawn (which is not part of the night), the second end of the day is the late afternoon/shortly before sunset (which is not part of the night), and the isha prayer which is between the sunset and the time of the darkness of the night(which is part of the night).

Also, these times exactly or roughly correspnd to the Fajr, Maghrib and Isha prayers in the 5-salaat format. the only three prayers in the five salaat format which are recited in the middle tone (as prescribed in the Quran) are the 3 mentioned previously. Is this a coincidence? Could it be that the others are hamds (praisings) as it is also written in the Quran? (you decide)

Also, the Quran says that the prayers are prescribes at SPECIFIC TIMES. If there is no specific timing given, then it is not a salaat. For example, if you read 2238 about the Salatul Wusta and no timing is given, how do you know when to pray? Are you assuming it? Are you getting it from the hadiths? To get the SPECIFIC TIME of it, ne looks at 11114 and at my explanation to get the SPECIFIC TIMES (and not just assuming it or getting it from hadith). One needs to use certain verses to explain others.

Check http//www.mostmerciful.com/realities-of-our-daily-prayers.htm
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/salaat.htm
and http//marwanboustany.googlepages.com/salaatinthequr'an
for more info

BTW the Jews pray in the morning, in the afternoon and in the evening. Since in the Quran it says that it confirms the previous scriptures (ie. torah and gospels), it makes my point valid.

peace

herbman

Salam to all,

about Salat AL WUSTA what do you think about this verse 629

Yusuf Ali O ye who believe! when the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly), hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of Allah, and leave off business (and traffic) that is best for you if ye but knew!

This can only be during the day, not al fajr neither at sun down it has to be somewhere in the middle.
This is to reject the assertion of 2 prayers a day!

Allah best knows

truthseeker11

Peace herbman,

There are many problems with your understanding which create serious issues.

"Guard/protect the salawaat" includes ALL the salaats so then mentioning a separate salaat in 2238 after that phrase would be redundant. This kind of redundancy would imply a poor grasp of language and communication. God knows how to communicate intelligently and has a perfect grasp of language.

Let me give you an example. If I am a teacher and I tell a student "read your books" it would mean and include all the books. I don't have to say "read your books and the English Literature book" because that will be redundant and will be poor language and if the student is smart, he/she will not want me as a teacher anymore -)

Salawaat means ALL the salaats in one's lifetime, and then saying al-salaat al-wusta cannot mean a separate salaat but that God wants us to protect/guard ALL the salaats in our lifetime and to perform each of those salaats in the best/balanced manner.

The wording used in 2238 is AL-salaat AL-wusta, with two AL's, and NOT salaat al-wusta as BelH above LIES about God. That makes a big difference. The dawn and dusk salaats are mentioned in the form "salaat al-fajr" and "salaat al-isha" which grammatically indicate specificity. The wording AL-salaat AL-wusta grammatically indicates general salaat and not a specific salaat and is a descriptive term for salaat in general, applicable to all the salaats. This reinforces that it is not a specific middle salaat but describes the characteristic of salaat in general, i.e. best/balanced salaat.
The derivatives of the root WST almost always mean "best/balanced" in the qur'aan and not "middle". Do your own research on all the occurrences.
If al-wusta in 2238 means "middle" then is it middle of daytime or middle of night? Because of that now we have two sects in the God alone people. One sect claims it is middle of daytime, and the other sect claims it is middle of night. Did God forget to address this critical issue?
In USA business is ROUTINELY done uptil 10 pm so "leave off business" does not necessarily mean daytime. "Yawm" does not mean only daytime but refers to the whole 24 hour day or a time period as used in the qur'aan. The word for daytime is "nahaar" as used in the qur'aan.
It seems very odd that God would mention "yawm al-jum'a" and then not give us any clue as to when that day is. In my understanding He does tell us which day is the day of gathering/assembly and that is when all mankind gathers/assembles for hajj. Please see the following for further details

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12309.msg96387#msg96387

Peace

Samia

Salam to all,

about Salat AL WUSTA what do you think about this verse 629

Yusuf Ali O ye who believe! when the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly), hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of Allah, and leave off business (and traffic) that is best for you if ye but knew!

This can only be during the day, not al fajr neither at sun down it has to be somewhere in the middle.
This is to reject the assertion of 2 prayers a day!

Allah best knows

The underlined conclusion is only valid if everyday is "Friday" We will have fajr, ishaa and "Jum3a" parayers everyday = 3 prayers a day.