Nearly a Quranist - need to take the leap!
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peace,
Quranic evidence for Abraham naming anything?
I assume you are referring to 2278, however the evidence clearly suggests "He" refers to God
huwa sammakumu almuslimeena min qablu wafee hatha
He named you al muslimeen from before and in thisPeace Wakas
When reading 2278, I can understand, as an arabic speaker, that the arabic wods "huwa sammakumu almuslimeena min qablu wafee hatha" refers to Abraham. And "Wa Fee Haza" (and In this) is related to the next sentence
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"Wa Fee Haza lee Yakoon Al-Rasool Shahidon Aliakom" (and in this the Messanger will be a witness against You)
Now, when I read 2-128, I can tell when Abraham named us Moslems(

"Our Lord! Make of us Muslims bowing to Thy and of our progeny a people Muslim bowing to Thy and show us our places for the celebration of rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning Most-Merciful. (2-12If you think I missed on that one, please let me know.
Peace -
Peace
How did Noah do so ?
Joe
Peace Brother
Thank you for pointing this verse; I would say that in 10-72 Noha was talking about himself, but in 2-128, Abraham was talking about us. As the Torah and the Quran tell us, Abraham was so worried about his future generations; and that is why he asked God to make them Moslmeen (submitters). and therefore, in 22-78, God is referring to Abraham request. -
I'm sorry I don't see how you can see a problem here. "and in this" ? You do not reckognize or identify with Abraham, in what he did? I certainly do..
Mr Deen, it is not a matter of recognising or identifying with what Abraham did. We are discussing if Abraham named us 'al muslimeen', accoding to The Quran, or not. If you wish to create some sort of loose link between this point and what you said, that is up to you. I prefer an evidence based discussion.
peace BelH,
When reading 2278, I can understand, as an arabic speaker, that the arabic wods "huwa sammakumu almuslimeena min qablu wafee hatha" refers to Abraham.
Are you implying that it is clear in the Arabic that it refers to Abraham? If so, please cite the grammar/linguistic evidence, if you speak the truth. Perhaps you can be honest, as an arabic speaker, and admit it could be either. And since it can be either, we can then weigh up the evidence to see what fits best.
Let me try, as a non-Arabic speaker, apply some logic and see what happens.... does the word "huwa" ever refer to anyone other than God in verse 2278? How many times does "huwa" refer to Abraham in the entire Quran?
And "Wa Fee Haza" (and In this) is related to the next sentence
Again, are you saying it is clear in the Arabic that it definitely relates to the next sentence? If so, please cite the grammar/linguistic evidence, if you speak the truth. Perhaps you can be honest, as an arabic speaker, and admit it could be either. And since it can be either, we can then weigh up the evidence to see what fits best.
Let me try, as a non-Arabic speaker, apply some logic and see what happens.... how can the messenger be a witness against us in this matter as your translation implies? As we can all see, when the Arabic Quran narrates the story of Noah, in Arabic, it uses the words 'al muslimeen'. You say Noah was only talking about himself, and whilst technically correct, logic tells us Noah is clearly implying I am of 'al muslimeen' and they (whoever he was addressing) are not, thus the term of reference 'al muslimeen' could have been applied to others, if they simply fulfilled the criteria.
The problem with your translation of 2128 is that it capitalises the word "muslim" into "Muslim" and implies this has some sort of basis. It doesn't. Furthermore, there is no naming in this verse.
So tell me, BelH, as an arabic speaker, how did I, a non-arabic speaker, do?
;D
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There is no loose link Wakas. I understand Abraham. I understand that it was he who named us muslims. I also understand several other people in the Quran, for instance Joseph, when he is tried seduced, and his shirt rips. I'm sure you all know it. (This story is interesting, because rarely a man never admits to being seduced by a woman, no, in infidel societies it is rather celebrated. So yes, here we can see support from God, for believing men, who do not against themselves.)
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So tell me, BelH, as an arabic speaker, how did I, a non-arabic speaker, do?
;D
You did very well yes I'm serious
22-78
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When looking at the three Hwoa (red words) the First is for Allah....and the second is.......for Allah. You are right Wakas bravo and the Third is for Allah.
In this verse Gabriel is telling the Prophet (and the believers) about God; thus Gabriel is referring to God as "Howa" in this verse.
When reading the Quran, I take into consideration that sometimes God is the Speaker, or Gabriel is the Speaker. Have you noticed that?
Here is a clear verse where Gabriel is speaking about Himself to the Prophet(
"We descend not but by command of thy Lord to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us and what is between and thy Lord never doth forget" (19-64)Any way, may God Bless you and increase your knowledge.
Peace
Okay let's say so, but the term used is al/muslimeen. It is not just Noah who refers to himself as "those who surrender" if this is the term.
Joe
You and Wakas are right in this point, as I said above.
may God Bless -
You need to look at the context. You don't have to be an arabic speaker for this, nor a linguistic.
The context is Abraham questioning who/what is God. Is it the moon, sun etc.. No, it is God. (Allah - The God, One)
Yusuf Ali When the night covered him over, He saw a star He said "This is my Lord." But when it set, He said "I love not those that set."
Yusuf Ali When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said "This is my Lord." But when the moon set, He said "unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray."
Yusuf Ali When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said "This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all)." But when the sun set, he said "O my people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to Allah.
Yusuf Ali "For me, I have set my face, firmly and truly, towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I give partners to Allah."
Yusuf Ali His people disputed with him. He said "(Come) ye to dispute with me, about Allah, when He (Himself) hath guided me? I fear not (the beings) ye associate with Allah Unless my Lord willeth, (nothing can happen). My Lord comprehendeth in His knowledge all things. Will ye not (yourselves) be admonished?
Yusuf Ali "How should I fear (the beings) ye associate with Allah, when ye fear not to give partners to Allah without any warrant having been given to you? Which of (us) two parties hath more right to security? (tell me) if ye know.
Yusuf Ali "It is those who believe and confuse not their beliefs with wrong - that are (truly) in security, for they are on (right) guidance."
Yusuf Ali That was the reasoning about Us, which We gave to Abraham (to use) against his people We raise whom We will, degree after degree for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge. -
peace belH,
Thank you for your honesty.
I apologise slightly if I was stern with you. It is just that I dislike it when people pull out the "I know Arabic" card, and use it to muddy the waters in favour of their view.
The Quran NEVER promotes Arabic as special, nor does it EVER imply those who know Arabic will understand it better. It does imply however that sincerity/purity and those who think etc will understand it best.
When reading the Quran, I take into consideration that sometimes God is the Speaker, or Gabriel is the Speaker. Have you noticed that?
Yes, I have noticed that.
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peace belH,
The Quran NEVER promotes Arabic as special, nor does it EVER imply those who know Arabic will understand it better. It does imply however that sincerity/purity and those who think etc will understand it best.
Peace all
You are welcome brother; after I do not want be from those who know the truth and hide it for any reason.You need to look at the context. You don't have to be an arabic speaker for this, nor a linguistic.
The context is Abraham questioning who/what is God. Is it the moon, sun etc.. No, it is God. (Allah - The God, One)
Yusuf Ali When the night covered him over, He saw a star He said "This is my Lord." But when it set, He said "I love not those that set."
Yusuf Ali When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said "This is my Lord." But when the moon set, He said "unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray."
Yusuf Ali When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said "This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all)." But when the sun set, he said "O my people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to Allah.
Yusuf Ali "For me, I have set my face, firmly and truly, towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I give partners to Allah."
Yusuf Ali His people disputed with him. He said "(Come) ye to dispute with me, about Allah, when He (Himself) hath guided me? I fear not (the beings) ye associate with Allah Unless my Lord willeth, (nothing can happen). My Lord comprehendeth in His knowledge all things. Will ye not (yourselves) be admonished?
Yusuf Ali "How should I fear (the beings) ye associate with Allah, when ye fear not to give partners to Allah without any warrant having been given to you? Which of (us) two parties hath more right to security? (tell me) if ye know.
Yusuf Ali "It is those who believe and confuse not their beliefs with wrong - that are (truly) in security, for they are on (right) guidance."
Yusuf Ali That was the reasoning about Us, which We gave to Abraham (to use) against his people We raise whom We will, degree after degree for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge.The above verses are not the ones Wakas was questioning, but 22-78.
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Peace.
Abraham is mentioned several places in the Quran.
http//www.google.no/search?hl=no&rlz=1C1GGLS_nbNO294NO303&q=Abraham+sitewww.islamawakened.com/&start=0&sa=N
Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For Allah did take Abraham for a friend.
395 Yusuf Ali Say "Allah speaketh the Truth follow the religion of Abraham, the sane in faith; he was not of the Pagans."
6161 Yusuf Ali Say "Verily, my Lord hath guided me to a way that is straight,- a religion of right,- the path (trod) by Abraham the true in Faith, and he (certainly) joined not gods with Allah.
16132 Yusuf Ali So We have taught thee the inspired (Message), "Follow the ways of Abraham the True in Faith, and he joined not gods with Allah."
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Peace.
Abraham is mentioned several places in the Quran.
http//www.google.no/search?hl=no&rlz=1C1GGLS_nbNO294NO303&q=Abraham+sitewww.islamawakened.com/&start=0&sa=N
Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For Allah did take Abraham for a friend.
395 Yusuf Ali Say "Allah speaketh the Truth follow the religion of Abraham, the sane in faith; he was not of the Pagans."
6161 Yusuf Ali Say "Verily, my Lord hath guided me to a way that is straight,- a religion of right,- the path (trod) by Abraham the true in Faith, and he (certainly) joined not gods with Allah.
16132 Yusuf Ali So We have taught thee the inspired (Message), "Follow the ways of Abraham the True in Faith, and he joined not gods with Allah."
agree brother; but according to the verse 22-78, God is the one who named us moslmeen "Submitters".
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agree brother; but according to the verse 22-78, God is the one who named us moslmeen "Submitters".
Peace
I understand this verse as, He named you "muslims". Because before, it was not written. However Gods laws were still there ) The religion just describes them, by knowledge of God, and observation of reality. And ofcourse here comes the part when we can argue what a messenger is.
I do understand your point though, "He" could refer to God. But what scriptures are these, and why does The Quran refer Abraham, as the founder of the religion?
He must refer to Abrahams writings.
"He named you muslims", may refer to God or Abraham. "and in this" may mean scripture, of maybe a new meaning, that the prophet tesifies to that the Abraham is the founder of the religion, and the people so.
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Who is of better faith than he who submits himself to God while doing good and following the creed of Abraham, the true in faith?
For God chose Abraham as a friend.- The Quran (4125)
Peace,
Respectfully.Indeed, tears have come to my eyes as i read your post, brother.
Indeed.
God bless you.
Glory be to our God.
Peace.
