How can we be sure that Jesus did not die on the cross?
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well technically, jesus died before the crucifixion, not even like died god says god raised jesus to him, his spirit or soul, was taken out of his body before any haram can be done on him, his body was a living machine but with no soul or spirit and that why god says shubiha lahom, it was made to look like they killed him but infact they only crucified the body....... so no they did not kill him,but they did crucify the body
Peace Sister
If God allowed the Jews to crucify the body... Then why GOD says they did not crucify him? How will the jews know that the Spirit was in Jesus or not... For them it would not matter, if as you are saying Jesus was a LIVING MACHINE and they crucified a LIVING MACHINE (Without the spirit of Jesus)... then their claims would be TRUE, indeed they did crucify JESUS... So logically this theory does not stand...
When GOD says THEY DID NOT CRUCIFY him... it means his body, the JESUS that everyone knew at that time, nothing that represent that stand for JESUS , was put on that cross... GOD's words are clear on this... He of course met a natural death at some time later... as all the other messengers BEFORE him and AFTER him did....
Regards
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Peace Sister
If God allowed the Jews to crucify the body... Then why GOD says they did not crucify him? How will the jews know that the Spirit was in Jesus or not... For them it would not matter, if as you are saying Jesus was a LIVING MACHINE and they crucified a LIVING MACHINE (Without the spirit of Jesus)... then their claims would be TRUE, indeed they did crucify JESUS... So logically this theory does not stand...
When GOD says THEY DID NOT CRUCIFY him... it means his body, the JESUS that everyone knew at that time, nothing that represent that stand for JESUS , was put on that cross... GOD's words are clear on this... He of course met a natural death at some time later... as all the other messengers BEFORE him and AFTER him did....
Regards
well this is where you have to think about it spiritually did they really crucify him when he was already dead and with god, can you kill a dead person
hmmmmm your the second person i hear talking about him living longer.............you have any ayat proof to that claim
because abviously someone was crucifiedhttp//www.submission.org/quran/app22.html
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well this is where you have to think about it spiritually did they really crucify him when he was already dead and with god, can you kill a dead person
hmmmmm your the second person i hear talking about him living longer.............you have any ayat proof to that claim
because abviously someone was crucifiedhttp//www.submission.org/quran/app22.html
Peace,
I have not done extensive study on the Jesus topic, however, my current conclusion is that he was not crucified... By this, I mean, not even his body because as I said, if the Jews crucified his body, then their claim of crucifying Jesus would have been right while God tells us that they never crucified him...
Many people was crucified, although it seems obvious someone was crucified, it can be anyone except Jesus... Since God does not tell us much on this, it means that we do not need this information to go forward with our deen...
As for Jesus living longer after the crucifixtion, I have not found concrete proof so far from the Quran... However, something did happen and he was not crucified, that was God's plan as He says some verses above that incidence, that he is the best of planners....
Allah knows best...
UPDATE
I just read this article
http//geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/8878/Verse4-159.htm
And it makes sense definitely... I advise you to read it.
According to the CORRECT interpretation of the 4159 ... It says that the most of the People of the book will believe in Jesus being killed on the cross BEFORE his real death....
So, logically, Jesus would have lived after the incidence of crucifixion till he met with natural and real death.... according to this verse and its correct interpretation...
Allah knows best...
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Peace,
Since God does not tell us much on this, it means that we do not need this information to go forward with our deen...god did tell us all we needed to know, and he made it very clear, simple and clear for all believers, as to forwarding our deen the quran has great stories and history, it teaches us all we need to know to better our lives on earth .........but truth be told if we were to sum up the whole messege of the quran, again simple and clear........... to worship one god alone, and worship being in any form. as god says he forgives all sins but ishrak
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god did tell us all we needed to know, and he made it very clear, simple and clear for all believers, as to forwarding our deen the quran has great stories and history, it teaches us all we need to know to better our lives on earth .........but truth be told if we were to sum up the whole messege of the quran, again simple and clear........... to worship one god alone, and worship being in any form. as god says he forgives all sins but ishrak
Peace
It is VERY TRUE that God made all things clear in His Book and this is why I edited my post above... sun
Regards
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So, logically, Jesus would have lived after the incidence of crucifixion till he met with natural and real death.... according to this verse and its correct interpretation...
2350 And We made the son of Mary and his mother a sign, and We gave them refuge on high ground, a place for resting and with a flowing stream.
Can this verse has a correlation with your above words confused
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yes, even in this aya it does not state a time of his death, so we cannot say that he died later, but in 4158 god says he raised jesus to him this aya is right after the aya and fact that "someone" most likely being jesus was crucified so it all happened with in that time. him being raised to god and then crusified, as god would not allow such torture on his prophet...
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god love you afridi......... cant say anything to you
353 And they made plots and Allah made His plans. And Allah is the most Excellent of the plan-makers.
354 Behold! Allah said ?O Isa! I shall cause you to die and I shall exalt you towards me and I shall clear you of those who reject Faith, and I am going to make those who follow you above those who reject Faith - until the day of Awakening. Then towards me is your return so that I shall decide among you as to that in which you used to differ.case of each prophets, Allah made plans against plots made by oppressors. This is the practice of Allah to protect His messengers at the time of aggression of enemies. Allah protected Musa, Ibrahim, Yusuf, Lut, Muhammad (pbu them) to name a few. In case of Jesus(pbuh) snatching him away from the enemies and lifting him alive in the Heaven can not be called a subtle and better plan of Allah when neither was it in the power of Jews nor in the power of anybody to counter it. In fact a better and subtle plan can be designed against another plan when it is contrived in a parallel manner.
4157 And (because of) their saying "Surely we have killed the Masih, - ?Isa, son of Mar-yam" the Rasul of Allah, and they could not murder him, nor could they kill him by crucifixion, but he was made to resemble to them. And verily those who differ regarding him are certainly in a doubt about him. They have no knowledge about it but are merely following a guess; and they could not kill him for certain;
4158 On the contrary, Allah exalted him towards Himself. And Allah is Exalted in Power, most Wise
In Surah Ale Imran, Allah says345 And he will speak to the people in the cradle and then of gray-haired age and (he will be) one of the righteous
5110 ... you speak to the people in the cradle and in old age.....
2350 ... We sheltered them in a plateau having meadows and springs.
Jesus(pbuh) was not raised alive in the Heaven and he is dead. This gray hair age must have happened while he was still living during his time, some 2000 years ago. Then Allah also tells us that Jesus(pbuh) was later on sheltered in a place full of meadows and springs. These verses supports other verses and we can further ascertain that Jesus(pbuh) survived the incidence of crucifixion and lived up to old age.Will Allah break the rule of nature? Will Allah break the same rule that He has set forth?
There are several other verses where Allah says there is no change in the course of Allah, that there is uniformity in the law of nature.
1777 ? And you will not find any change in Our course.
3030 ? there is no altering in the creation of Allah
3362 ? and you will not find any alteration in the course of Allah.
3543 ? But you will never find any change in the course of Allah and you will never find any shifting in the course of Allah.
4823 the law of Allah which has been in operation from before, and you will never find any change in the course of Allah
1670 And Allah creates you, then He causes you to die; and among you someone is caused to return to the worst of the age, resulting in his not knowing anything after knowledge. Allah is truly all Knowing, most Capable.
225 ? And of you is one who is caused to die, and among you is one who is turned back to the worst part of life until he does not know anything after having
known...
3668 And whomsoever We lengthen life, We reverse him in constitution
There are several convincing proofs in the Quran regarding death of all living being and particularly all Rasuls575 The Messiah, son of Maryam, was none but a Rasul, surely the Rasuls have passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman and they both used to take food?
In Surah Al-Anbiya' verse 217-8, Allah declares217 We did not send before you (O Muhammad(pbuh)) any but man to whom We sent revelations; therefore you ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know
218 And We did not give them bodies not taking food and neither are they abiding2520 And We did not send before you any the Rasuls, but they surely ate food and walked through the street
The verse is from Surah Ma'idah 5116-117.
5116 And behold! Allah will say ?O Isa, son of Maryam was it you who said to the people (-- the Christians, especially the Roman Catholic) "Take me and my mother for two deities besides Allah?" He will say "Glory to be to You! It is not fit for me to say what is not right for me (to utter). If I had said that, You would then have known it indeed. You know what is in my mind, while I do not know what is in Your mind. Surely you are the great Knower of hidden matter
5117 "I did not say to them anything except about what You had ordered me, namely, "serve Allah, my Rabb and your Rabb" and I was witness over them so long as I was with them, but when you caused me to die (wafat), You were Watcher over them. And You are a Witness over all thingsFacts from the Quran If you believe Jesus(pbuh) is alive, then
All Rasuls before Muhammad(pbuh) passed away (3143) This is a serious contradiction
Meaning of the word ?wafat? is death in more than 20 different verses in the Quran Use of the word ?wafat? in 354 and 5117 are serious exceptions and contradictory.
Christians would regard Jesus(pbuh) and his mother as God ONLY after his death (wafat) (5116) The verse is contradictory since the Christians have been considering Jesus(pbuh) and his mother as god for a long time.
Laws of Allah has been in operation from before (4823) He has defied the law and put the verse in contradiction
You will not find any alteration in the course of Allah (3362) This is a serious alteration in the course of Allah. A man is alive for over 2000 years. The verse is contradictory.
Several verses say there is no inconsistency in the law of nature and law of Allah (673-4; 1777; 3030; 3362; 3543; 4823) All these verses are in serious contradiction - for no man can live that long!!
Allah will first cause Jesus'(pbuh) death and then raise him (354) How did he get raised before his death? This is a serious contradiction.
Whomsoever Allah grants long life - He reverts them to worst age and the person forgets all the knowledge (1670) By now Jesus(pbuh) has no knowledge of anything at all. How can he come back and do any good for Islam?
All Rasuls before Muhammad(pbuh) are no more abiding - or alive (21 This verse is in serious contradiction.
Mortal bodies of all Rasuls sustained on food (21. Somebody must tell who is providing food for Jesus(pbuh)
Whomsoever Allah grants long life, He reverts them in constitution (366 Jesus(pbuh) must have been reverted in constitution - he is fragile, crippled - dependent on others like an infant.
There is no inconsistency in the creation of Allah. The more we search for inconsistency, the more the eye will come back fatigued, but we won't find any inconsistency (673-4) This itself is the biggest inconsistency in the creation of Allah. A man is living for 2000 years!! The eyes are not fatigued yet, but we seem to have found utter incoherence in Allah's words!!!police
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Does the Quran menton any other prophets that Allah gathered up to Himself? Could you list the verse? Thanks.
Is there a verse that lists all the prophets that have been killed?
The Jews did not crucify Jesus the Romans did, but remember though that it was in GOD's plan that Jesus be crucified.
003.054
YUSUFALI And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
PICKTHAL And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them) and Allah is the best of schemers.
SHAKIR And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners.003.055
YUSUFALI Behold! Allah said "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
PICKTHAL (And remember) when Allah said O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.
SHAKIR And when Allah said O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.Every Muslim that studies the Quran should read the Holy Bible!!
010.094
YUSUFALI If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord so be in no wise of those in doubt.
PICKTHAL And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
SHAKIR But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers. -
yes, even in this aya it does not state a time of his death, so we cannot say that he died later, but in 4158 god says he raised jesus to him this aya is right after the aya and fact that "someone" most likely being jesus was crucified so it all happened with in that time. him being raised to god and then crusified, as god would not allow such torture on his prophet...
Wafat means death are raise.
1957 And We raised him to an elevated state. (WA rafa?naa hu?)here rafa is used for raise
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LOL !! We keep typing and posting at the same time!!
Even though Muslims believe that Mohammad is the final prophet, Jesus is a prophet like no other. Yes the Quran does warn about not worshipping 3 gods and including Mary into the equation. Christians today have one True GOD.
I believe that Muslims have missed the true interpretation of the meaning of this verse- Jesus is the living WORD of GOD. Jesus is the Messiah. Is any other prophet in the Quran desribed this way? Please list verses. Thanks.
003.045
YUSUFALI Behold! the angels said "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;
PICKTHAL (And remember) when the angels said O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).
SHAKIR When the angels said O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah). -
LOL !! We keep typing and posting at the same time!!
Even though Muslims believe that Mohammad is the final prophet, Jesus is a prophet like no other. Yes the Quran does warn about not worshipping 3 gods and including Mary into the equation. Christians today have one True GOD.
I believe that Muslims have missed the true interpretation of the meaning of this verse- Jesus is the living WORD of GOD. Jesus is the Messiah. Is any other prophet in the Quran desribed this way? Please list verses. Thanks.
003.045
YUSUFALI Behold! the angels said "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;
PICKTHAL (And remember) when the angels said O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).
SHAKIR When the angels said O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).I think the pagans Arabs had an idol for Mary in the Ka'aba or so history says. I will quote Reza Aslan
"In contrast, paganism among the sedentary societies of Arabia had developed from its earlier and simpler manifestations into a complex form of neo-animism, providing a host of divine and semi-divine intermediaries who stood between the creator god and his creation. This creator god was called Allah, which is not a proper name but a contraction of the word al-ilah, meaning simply "the god." Like his Greek counterpart, Zeus, Allah was originally an ancient rain/sky deity who had been elevated into the role of the supreme god of the pre-Islamic Arabs. Though a powerful deity to swear by, Allah's eminent status in the Arab pantheon rendered him, like most High Gods, beyond the supplications of ordinary people. Only in times of great peril would anyone bother consulting him. Otherwise, it was far more expedient to turn to the lesser, more accessible gods who acted as Allah's intercessors, the most powerful of whom were his three daughters, Allat ("the goddess", al-Uzza ("the mighty", and Manat (the goddess of fate, whose name is probably derived from the Hebrew word mana, meaning "portion" or "share". These divine mediators were not only represented in the Kaaba, they had their own individual shrines throughout the Arabian Peninsula Allat in the city of Ta'if;
al-Uzza in Nakhlah; and Manat in Qudayd. It was to them that the Arabs prayed when they needed rain, when their children were ill, when they entered into battle or embarked on a journey deep into the treacherous desert abodes of the Jinn-those intelligent, imperceptible, and salvable beings made of smokeless flame who are called "genies" in the West and who function as the nymphs and fairies of Arabian mythology.
There were no priests and no pagan scriptures in pre-Islamic Arabia, but that does not mean the gods remained silent. They regularly revealed themselves through the ecstatic utterances of a group of cultic officials known as the Kahins. The Kahins were poets who functioned primarily as soothsayers and who, for a fee, would fall into a trance in which they would reveal divine messages through rhyming couplets. Poets already had an important role in pre-Islamic society as bards, tribal historians, social commentators, dispensers of moral philosophy, and, on occasion, administrators of justice. But the Kahins represented a more spiritual function of the poet. Emerging from every social and economic stratum, and including a number of women, the Kahins interpreted dreams, cleared up crimes, found lost animals, settled disputes, and expounded upon ethics. As with their Pythian counterparts at Delphi, however, the Kahins' oracles were vague and deliberately imprecise; it was the supplicant's responsibility to figure out what the gods actually meant.
Although considered the link between humanity and the divine, the Kahins did not communicate directly with the gods but rather accessed them through the Jinn and other spirits who were such an integral part of the Jahiliyyah religious experience. Even so, neither the Kahins, nor anyone else for that matter, had access to Allah. In fact, the god who had created the heavens and the earth, who had fashioned human beings in his own image, was the only god in the whole of the Hijaz not represented by an idol in the Kaaba. Although called "the King of the Gods" and "the Lord of the House," Allah was not the central deity in the Kaaba. That honor belonged to Hubal, the Syrian god who had been brought to Mecca centuries before the rise of Islam.
Despite Allah's minimal role in the religious cult of pre-Islamic Arabia, his eminent position in the Arab pantheon is a clear indication of just how far paganism in the Arabian Peninsula had evolved from its simple animistic roots. Perhaps the most striking example of this development can be seen in the processional chant that tradition claims the pilgrims sang as they approached the Kaaba
Here I am, O Allah, here I am.
You have no partner,
Except such a partner as you have.
You possess him and all that is his.
This remarkable proclamation, with its obvious resemblance to the Muslim profession of faith-"There is no god but God"-may reveal the earliest traces in pre-Islamic Arabia of what the German philologist Max Muller termed henotheism the belief in a single High God, without necessarily rejecting the existence of other, subordinate gods. The earliest evidence of henotheism in Arabia can be traced back to a tribe called the Amir, who lived near modern-day Yemen in the second century B.C.E., and who worshipped a High God they called dhu-Samawi, "The Lord of the Heavens." While the details of the Amirs' religion have been lost to history, most scholars are convinced that by the sixth century C.E., henotheism had become the standard belief of the vast majority of sedentary Arabs, who not only accepted Allah as their High God, but insisted that he was the same god as Yahweh, the god of the Jews.
The Jewish presence in the Arabian Peninsula can, in theory, be traced to the Babylonian Exile a thousand years earlier, though subsequent migrations may have taken place in 70 C.E., after Rome's sacking of the Temple in Jerusalem, and again in 132 C.E., after the messianic uprising of Simon Bar Kochba. For the most part, the Jews were a thriving and highly influential diaspora whose culture and traditions had been thoroughly integrated into the social and religious milieu of pre-Islamic Arabia. Whether Arab converts or immigrants from Palestine, the Jews participated in every level of Arab society. According to Gordon Newby, throughout the Peninsula there were Jewish merchants, Jewish Bedouin, Jewish farmers, Jewish poets, and Jewish warriors. Jewish men took Arab names and Jewish women wore Arab headdresses. And while some of these Jews may have spoken Aramaic (or at least a corrupted version of it), their primary language was Arabic.
Although in contact with major Jewish centers throughout the Near East, Judaism in Arabia had developed its own variations on traditional Jewish beliefs and practices. The Jews shared many of the same religious ideals as their pagan Arab counterparts, especially with regard to what is sometimes referred to as "popular religion" belief in magic, the use of talismans and divination, and the like. For example, while there is evidence of a small yet formal rabbinical presence in some regions of the Arabian Peninsula, there also existed a group of Jewish soothsayers called the Kohens who, while maintaining a far more priestly function in their communities, nevertheless resembled the pagan Kahins in that they too dealt in divinely inspired oracles.
The relationship between the Jews and pagan Arabs was symbiotic in that not only were the Jews heavily Arabized, but the Arabs were also significantly influenced by Jewish beliefs and practices. One need look no further for evidence of this influence than to the Kaaba itself, whose origin myths indicate that it was a Semitic sanctuary (haram in Arabic) with its roots dug deeply in Jewish tradition."- Reza Aslan-No God but God
"Chapter One The Sanctuary in the Desert
Arabia. The Sixth Century C.EIn the arid, desolate basin of Mecca, surrounded on all sides by the bare mountains of the Arabian Desert, stands a small, nondescript sanctuary that the ancient Arabs refer to as the Kaaba the Cube. The Kaaba is a squat, roofless edifice made of unmortared stones and sunk into a valley of sand. Its four walls - so short it is said a young goat can leap over them - are swathed in strips of heavy cloth. At its base are two small doors chiseled into the gray stone, allowing entry into the inner sanctum. It is here, inside the cramped interior of the sanctuary, that the gods of pre-Islamic Arabia reside Hubal, the Syrian god of the moon; al-Uzza, the powerful goddess the Egyptians knew as Isis and the Greeks called Aphrodite; al-Kutba, the Nabataean god of writing and divination; Jesus, the incarnate god of the Christians, and his holy mother, Mary.
In all, there are said to be three hundred and sixty idols housed in and around the Kaaba, representing every god recognized in the Arabian Peninsula, a region known to the Arabs as the Hijaz. During the holy months, when the desert fairs and the great markets envelop the city of Mecca, pilgrims from all over the Hijaz make their way to this barren land to visit their tribal deities. They sing songs of worship and dance in front of the gods; they make sacrifices and pray for health. Then, in a remarkable ritual - the origins of which are a mystery - the pilgrims gather as a group and rotate around the Kaaba seven times, some pausing momentarily to kiss each corner of the sanctuary before being captured and swept away again by the current of bodies.
The pagan Arabs gathered around the Kaaba believe their sanctuary to have been founded by Adam, the first man. They believe that Adam's original edifice was destroyed by the Great Flood, then rebuilt by Noah. They believe that, after Noah, the Kaaba was forgotten for centuries until Abraham rediscovered it while visiting his first-born son, Ishmael, and his concubine, Hagar, both of whom had been banished to this wilderness at the behest of Abraham's wife, Sarah. And they believe it was at this very spot that Abraham nearly sacrificed Ishmael before being stopped by the promise that, like his younger brother, Isaac, Ishmael would also sire a great nation, the descendents of whom now spin over the sandy Meccan valley like a desert whirlwind.
Of course, these are just stories intended to convey what the Kaaba means, not where it came from. The truth is no one knows who built the Kaaba, or how long it has been here. It is likely the sanctuary was not even the original reason for the sanctity of this place. Near the Kaaba is a well called Zamzam, fed by a bountiful underground spring, which tradition claims had been placed there to nourish Hagar and Ishmael. It requires no stretch of the imagination to recognize how a spring, situated in the middle of the desert, could become a sacred place for the wandering Bedouin tribes of Arabia. The Kaaba itself may have been erected many years later, not as some sort of Arab Pantheon, but as a secure place to store the consecrated objects used in the rituals that had evolved around Zamzam. Indeed, the earliest traditions concerning the Kaaba claim that inside its walls was a pit, dug into the sand, which contained "treasures" magically guarded by a snake.
It is also possible that the original sanctuary held some measure of cosmological significance for the ancient Arabs. Not only were many of the idols in the Kaaba associated with the planets and stars, but the legend that they totaled three hundred and sixty in number suggests astral connotations. The seven circumambulations around the Kaaba - called tawaf in Arabic and still the primary ritual of the annual Hajj pilgrimage - may have been intended to mimic the motion of the heavenly bodies. It was, after all, a common belief among ancient peoples that their temples and sanctuaries were terrestrial replicas of the cosmic mountain from which creation sprang. The Kaaba, like the Pyramids in Egypt or the Temple in Jerusalem, may have been constructed as an axis mundi, sometimes called a "navel spot" a sacred space around which the universe revolves; the link between the earth and the solid dome of heaven. That would explain why there was once a nail attached to the floor of the Kaaba that the ancient Arabs referred to as "the navel of the world." As G.R. Hawting has shown, the ancient pilgrims would sometimes enter the sanctuary, tear off their clothes, and place their own navels over the nail, thereby merging with the cosmos.
Alas, as with so many things about the Kaaba, its origins are mere speculation. The only thing scholars can say with any certainty is that by the 6th century C.E., this small sanctuary made of mud and stone had become the center of religious life in pre-Islamic Arabia that intriguing, yet ill-defined era of paganism that Muslims refer to as the Jahiliyyah - "the Time of Ignorance". "-Reza Aslan-No God but God
Once again to understand the Koran verses you need to understand the audience it speaks about. Many verses can be understood after knowing the Arab pagan faith or Jewish traditions especially Talmud.
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Wafat means death are raise.
1957 And We raised him to an elevated state. (WA rafa?naa hu?)here rafa is used for raise
yes 4158 he was raised,ILAYHII , he was raised to god.......the way im understanding you it would mean that he raised him to gods level, which i very much doubt that, in any case the aya you are talking about is not about jesus is about idris
sorry afridi..... -
This one is about Jesus.
004.157
YUSUFALI That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-
PICKTHAL And because of their saying We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
SHAKIR And their saying Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.004.158
YUSUFALI Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
PICKTHAL But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.It seems that Idris was raised to a different height in heavenno directly up with Allah.
019.057
YUSUFALI And We raised him to a lofty station.
PICKTHAL And We raised him to high station.
SHAKIR And We raised him high in Heaven -
This one is about Jesus.
004.157
YUSUFALI That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-
PICKTHAL And because of their saying We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
SHAKIR And their saying Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.004.158
YUSUFALI Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
PICKTHAL But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.It seems that Idris was raised to a different height in heavenno directly up with Allah.
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YUSUFALI And We raised him to a lofty station.
PICKTHAL And We raised him to high station.
SHAKIR And We raised him high in HeavenI still do not see how the verses in the Koran can be interpreted as Jesus was not crucified. It says "they" did not crucify him nor did " they" kill him. It did not say "he". Anotherwords it didputed the Jewish claim which focused on the exclusive Jewish role in the crucifiction. Anyways the Koran does say"
354 Behold! Allah Said "O Isa! I shall cause you to die and I shall exalt you towards me and I shall clear you of those who reject Faith, and I am going to make those who follow you above those who reject Faith - until the day of Awakening. Then towards Me is your return, so that I shall decide among you as to in which you used to differ.
So here the Koran uses wafa meaning death. Yet the Koran also say"
Do not suppose that those killed in the Way of God are dead. No indeed! They are alive and well provided for in the very presence of their Lord, delighting in the favour God has bestowed on them, rejoicing over those they left behind who have not yet joined them, feeling no fear and knowing no sorrow, rejoicing in blessings and favour from God and that God does not let the wage of the believers go to waste. (Surah Ali 'Imran 169-171)
Do not say that those who are killed in the Way of God are dead. On the contrary, they are alive but you are not aware of it. (Surat al-Baqara 154)
The Koran was diputing I think this claim
"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.
"The more popular accounts--which were nevertheless taken quite seriously--such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name 'Jesus' was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular tradition still persists...
The koran tells us
4.157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.
4.156 Quran
That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; -
If Muslims can see that it was all GOD's plan can they accept why it was GOD's plan?
Bigmo I forget are you Muslim?
No, I am a Koranist. Ha ha!
Anyways the Bible never claimed jesus was God but did talk about his crucifiction and his coming from the dead. You can then say he didn't die, he is still alive. But you can also say, he was killed and came back from the dead. The Koran came to confirm the scriptures. People here for some reason refuse to accept that. Even though the Koran is crystal clear about this. The Gospel has talked clearly about Jesus crufiction and his coming back alive. So why should we not accept that? Many of his disciples even saw the wounds and one even touched them. I am getting tired of posting the relevant verses in the Koran about the previous scriptures. It creates a bad image that many of these Koranist are ashamed of the previous scriptures because it is not as ambigous as the Koran and therefore they can't find a way out of problematic verses. This is an image many have when they see Koranist trying to change the words of the Koran to fit their interpretation. If Jesus was not crucified then how do you explain all those witnesses. People seem to not understand the issue. If you granmother supposedly passed away and then 3 days later you saw her alive, you can say she never dies, she is still alive. It is true. But you can also say she died and came back alive. It all depends on the time frame you are talking about.
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sun sun sun
It is very clear if still some one want ro believe in bible which is a hear say then ignore
53 And they made plots and Allah made His plans. And Allah is the most Excellent of the plan-makers.
354 Behold! Allah said ?O Isa! I shall cause you to die and I shall exalt you towards me and I shall clear you of those who reject Faith, and I am going to make those who follow you above those who reject Faith - until the day of Awakening. Then towards me is your return so that I shall decide among you as to that in which you used to differ
4157 And (because of) their saying "Surely we have killed the Masih, - ?Isa, son of Mar-yam" the Rasul of Allah, and they could not murder him, nor could they kill him by crucifixion, but he was made to resemble to them. And verily those who differ regarding him are certainly in a doubt about him. They have no knowledge about it but are merely following a guess; and they could not kill him for certain;45 And he will speak to the people in the cradle and then of gray-haired age and (he will be) one of the righteous
5110 ... you speak to the people in the cradle and in old age.....
2350 ... We sheltered them in a plateau having meadows and springs575 The Messiah, son of Maryam, was none but a Rasul, surely the Rasuls have passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman and they both used to take food?
In Surah Al-Anbiya' verse 217-8,5116 And behold! Allah will say ?O Isa, son of Maryam was it you who said to the people (-- the Christians, especially the Roman Catholic) "Take me and my mother for two deities besides Allah?" He will say "Glory to be to You! It is not fit for me to say what is not right for me (to utter). If I had said that, You would then have known it indeed. You know what is in my mind, while I do not know what is in Your mind. Surely you are the great Knower of hidden matter
5117 "I did not say to them anything except about what You had ordered me, namely, "serve Allah, my Rabb and your Rabb" and I was witness over them so long as I was with them, but when you caused me to die (wafat), You were Watcher over them. And You are a Witness over all things -
Thanks Bigmo
Interesting - "It creates a bad image that many of these Koranist are ashamed of the previous scriptures because it is not as ambigous as the Koran and therefore they can't find a way out of problematic verses."
I"m not sure what you mean- They are ashamed of the more detailed scripture?