The Shahada

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace WayFinder,

Now for the part Ash hadou anna Muhammad rasoolullah... I bear witness that Muhammad IS the messenger of God... Well, this part is also in the present tense... How can we bear such a witness when the Messenger is no more and he is dead?? Should not this part be in the PAST TENSE?? Like Ash hadou anna Muhammad KAANA rasoolullah... Why is it in the present tense... Allah is the All-Living, the Eternal One, So it is perfectly logic to testify that He is the Only God in the present tense... However, for the Muhammad part, logically that part should have been in the past tense... Because Muhammad in not alive now.. So we cannot say HE IS the messenger of Allah...

This is true regarding his messengership, but Muhammad is not dead; he is alive, as the Quran points out. The believers don't die, they move on to the hereafter, being provided for by Allah (3169), but many don't understand this because we can't physically see them. But the believers are certainly alive, not dead (see 2154). So, it would be accurate to say that Muhammad IS a messenger of Allah, but it is blasphemous to place his name alongside God's, making them "partners". In this sense, in the Sunni shahaada, Muhammad becomes "one of the two", like a partner alongside Allah, and Sunnis can't mention the name of Allah without mentioning Muhammad. This is shirk...

On the contrary, these words would be perfect... Ash hadou anna haazal Quraan Kalaamoullah... I bear witness that this Quran is the Word of God... I said this one just as an example...

This would be true and accurate, but it would still innovate God's message. Attesting that the Quran is the word of Allah is good, and we should all bear witness to this fact. However, placing this shahaada in the same abode with the Quranic shahaada (i.e. "La ilaaha ila Allah&quot is still shirk and innovation. Since the shahaada is a declaration about God ALONE, we have no place in adding our own words and thoughts to it, no matter how true the statement may be. It is still a manmade innovation. Bearing witness that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah is blasphemous, but stating that Muhammad is a messenger of Allah is not, and it's a true statement. It is the partnering him alongside Allah that makes the statement (i.e. Muhammad ar-rasuwlu Allah) idolatrous, and they do this by bearing witness to this as well as by placing his name alongside God's name. Allah condemns them, and He says throughout the Quran that He is "enough as a witness" regarding His messengers and servants. That means we should NOT bear witness to this. As Brother Al Khidr pointed out, in 619, Allah's name ALONE is mentioned in the shahaada, and when asked regarding the partnering of God with anyone, Muhammad is told, "Qul laa ash-hadu" (or "Say I do not bear witness&quot. Likewise, we should not bear witness to anyone or anything being partnered alongside God. The only proper shahaada is

La ilaaha ila Allah (i.e. There is no god except Allah)

Peace,

Ahmad

WayFinder

Peace WayFinder,

This is true regarding his messengership, but Muhammad is not dead; he is alive, as the Quran points out. The believers don't die, they move on to the hereafter, being provided for by Allah (3169), but many don't understand this because we can't physically see them. But the believers are certainly alive, not dead (see 2154). So, it would be accurate to say that Muhammad IS a messenger of Allah, but it is blasphemous to place his name alongside God's, making them "partners". In this sense, in the Sunni shahaada, Muhammad becomes "one of the two", like a partner alongside Allah, and Sunnis can't mention the name of Allah without mentioning Muhammad. This is shirk...

i KNOW THAT THEY ARE NOT DEAD AND THEY ARE ALIVE 3INDALLAH.... BUT CONCERNING OUR LIVES AND OUR EARTH, THEIR MISSION IS OVER... THE MESSAGE IS DELIVERED AND THE TASK OF MESSENGERSHIP IS OVER... THEY ARE ALIVE 3INDALLAH BUT THEY ARE TOTALLY DISCONNECTED FROM US BECAUSE WE ARE NOT DEAD YET... THESE ARE 2 DIFFERENT WORLDS ISNT IT?

THERE IS A VERSE THAT SAYS, THE DEAD CANNOT HEAR AND EVEN IF THEY COULD HEAR, THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO REPLY...

SO WHAT ARE WE TO SAY? MUSA,ISA AND MUHAMMAD ARE THE MESSENGERS OF GOD OR WERE THE MESSENGERS OF GOD?

This would be true and accurate, but it would still innovate God's message. Attesting that the Quran is the word of Allah is good, and we should all bear witness to this fact. However, placing this shahaada in the same abode with the Quranic shahaada (i.e. "La ilaaha ila Allah&quot is still shirk and innovation.

YOU MISUNDERSTOOD ME BROTHER, I USED THIS AS AN EXAMPLE ONLY... JUST TO SHOW THE TENSE OF THE VERB... ATTESTING THE VALUE OF SOMETHING WHICH IS PRESENT AND WE CAN INVESTIGATE ON IT... I DID NEVER INTEND TO ADD THIS PART TO THE SHAHAADA LOL ;D

Since the shahaada is a declaration about God ALONE, we have no place in adding our own words and thoughts to it, no matter how true the statement may be. It is still a manmade innovation. Bearing witness that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah is blasphemous, but stating that Muhammad is a messenger of Allah is not, and it's a true statement. It is the partnering him alongside Allah that makes the statement (i.e. Muhammad ar-rasuwlu Allah) idolatrous, and they do this by bearing witness to this as well as by placing his name alongside God's name. Allah condemns them, and He says throughout the Quran that He is "enough as a witness" regarding His messengers and servants. That means we should NOT bear witness to this. As Brother Al Khidr pointed out, in 619, Allah's name ALONE is mentioned in the shahaada, and when asked regarding the partnering of God with anyone, Muhammad is told, "Qul laa ash-hadu" (or "Say I do not bear witness&quot. Likewise, we should not bear witness to anyone or anything being partnered alongside God. The only proper shahaada is

La ilaaha ila Allah (i.e. There is no god except Allah)

Peace,

Ahmad

Raj-ah

To All from a Lover of Muhammad (PBUH)

If we read in depth and detail the propaganda of RK sect and progressive Muslims, we will find out that they root back to missionaries and anti Muslim writers, as soon as propaganda is published there, RK followers and so called Modern Muslims try to Hijack and bring it forward for dismantling young and new Muslims for obvious reasons.

One of these is about Muhammad, they want to degrade him and show him as an ordinary Human being.

?Shahada? as explained earlier, at the time of Prophet was due to some reasons; but the RK sect does not seem to understand it and keeps on propagating that this practice did not prevail and we have no proof for it, they do not take HAdith in to account because they think these are inventions by hypocrites, however their whole edifice of ?19? depends upon a HADITH.

Well to Silence the propaganda of RK sect let me provide a PROOF from Quran itself, which tells us that this practice prevailed at the time of Prophet, and that too from the very verse they try to use in their favor after distorting the meanings of it.

631 of the Quran tells us
When the hypocrites come unto thee, they say We bear witness that thou art indeed Allah's messenger. And Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the hypocrites indeed are speaking falsely.
Let us not go into the definitions first. This ayat clearly tells us that people at time of Muhammad use to bear the witness of his name.
Allah Ho Akbar.

Now after putting a lock on the false propaganda let us see what do RK sect and so called modern Muslims have to say about its definition
They say those who bear witness for Muhammad as a messenger of Allah are hypocrites, this is very poor understanding of the Quran for some, and hypocritical definition by some. The verse is not saying that hypocrites are the ones who bear witness that Muhammad is a Messenger. It is saying that those specific hypocrites are lying when they say that they bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. They say it, but don't mean it inside. The verse would not make sense. How can God accuse them of lying when they say Muhammad is a Messenger of Allah and it is there in the Quran at several places that Muhammad is a Messenger of Allah. Therefore every Muslim is hypocrite according to RK sect who reads the Quran daily and at several places recite Muhammad is messenger of Allah.
This was also pointed out by Behl.
Now after exposing the hidden intentions of RK sect let us see to their next allegation, they say to mention the name of Prophet with Allah is Shirk? Though one of them admitted it is not and after few lines he retreated and said it is.
They think that by putting Muhammad's name in the shahada means that we are not keeping the religion absolutely to Allah alone?
Putting Muhammad's name in the same sentence where there is Allah?s name does not mean they are equal.
If I say that; "Akber was a great king and beerbal was his minister." Am I showing equality between the two?
The fact is that jealousy with Muhammad (PBUH) is not new in the hearts of missionaries and so called messengers who have no authentication from Quran.

To Behl,
You agree that Allah has blessed some messengers over others and exalted some to higher rank. I hope so. The proof provided by me in the verses mentioned in my previous post.
Dear, please take this example
There is a school and it has classes ranging from grade 1 to grade 10, there are 10 teachers 1 for each class, pupils have to respect all the teachers equally because they all are teachers, BUT these teachers differ in their qualifications some are assigned for 1st graders and some for 10th grade.

If you read the Quran in detail you will come to know that Muhammad was the seal on prophets, and the Final book which is for all Humanity was revealed un to him. You will also come to know that Muhammad is for ALL the Worlds.
If you want to discuss this, I recommend first you read the thread ?Praise be to Muhammad Rasul of Allah? and still you think that Muhammad is not the one who is on the higher ranks, we can debate it start another thread for it please, and inform me.

To wayfinder;

It is not that you say ?Muhammad Rasul Allah? or not it is not even if you say ?Allah is one? that means nothing absolutely nothing for an individual. If keep on saying ?Allah is one? for the whole day and I am not practically proving it what is the use for it? Actually the Shahada used by the people at time of prophet had some reasons which were explain earlier, they lived in a society and Islam is not individual as the Christians have made it, it is the concept for UMMAH.
May be I have difficult time explaining you due to my weak English, But I recommend you read some articles by Arnold Mol, a member of the forum or some articles by Allama Pervaiz on unity of UMMAH.

At last for
Those, who tell us that there are two, three or five salaat?
A question?

What is Salaat?

mmkhan

Salaaman Hammad,

Peace Raj-ah

I want to clarify that the above verse is telling us that God is the one who can rank his prophets as He wishes; but the believers should not rank or favor any of them over the other, as God commanded us in Quran.
Peace

True! Same as Allah created heavens and the earth, but we cannot. No comparission.

Khan

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace WayFinder,

You said

i KNOW THAT THEY ARE NOT DEAD AND THEY ARE ALIVE 3INDALLAH.... BUT CONCERNING OUR LIVES AND OUR EARTH, THEIR MISSION IS OVER... THE MESSAGE IS DELIVERED AND THE TASK OF MESSENGERSHIP IS OVER... THEY ARE ALIVE 3INDALLAH BUT THEY ARE TOTALLY DISCONNECTED FROM US BECAUSE WE ARE NOT DEAD YET... THESE ARE 2 DIFFERENT WORLDS ISNT IT?

THERE IS A VERSE THAT SAYS, THE DEAD CANNOT HEAR AND EVEN IF THEY COULD HEAR, THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO REPLY...

SO WHAT ARE WE TO SAY? MUSA,ISA AND MUHAMMAD ARE THE MESSENGERS OF GOD OR WERE THE MESSENGERS OF GOD?

Even though their messages have been delivered, it is still proper to refer to them as messengers, even though it wouldn't be wrong to call them "past messengers". I guess you can call it either way...

YOU MISUNDERSTOOD ME BROTHER, I USED THIS AS AN EXAMPLE ONLY... JUST TO SHOW THE TENSE OF THE VERB... ATTESTING THE VALUE OF SOMETHING WHICH IS PRESENT AND WE CAN INVESTIGATE ON IT... I DID NEVER INTEND TO ADD THIS PART TO THE SHAHAADA LOL

Oh, okay. I thought you were talking about adding that part into the Quranic shahaada... ;D In this case, you are correct. If the hypocrites were going to testify regarding the messengers, then it would be more appropriate to testify regarding the truth and the message, which were sent down from Allah. Testifying regarding the messengers themselves, partnering them alongside God, is shirk... Sorry for the misunderstanding...

Peace,

Ahmad

WayFinder

Peace Ra-Jah

631 of the Quran tells us
When the hypocrites come unto thee, they say We bear witness that thou art indeed Allah's messenger. And Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the hypocrites indeed are speaking falsely.

Then can you explain to me the RED part?? Why does Allah says this?? We already know He is 3aliimoul Hakeem... He knows everything... Then why that part in that same verse??

Let us not go into the definitions first. This ayat clearly tells us that people at time of Muhammad use to bear the witness of his name.
Allah Ho Akbar.

Are we int the time of the Prophet? The Prophet is no more...

While we are at it.... why don't we bear witness that Musa,Isa,Suleymaan etc are messengers of Allah?? Why not?

Regards

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Raj-ah,

If we read in depth and detail the propaganda of RK sect and progressive Muslims, we will find out that they root back to missionaries and anti Muslim writers, as soon as propaganda is published there, RK followers and so called Modern Muslims try to Hijack and bring it forward for dismantling young and new Muslims for obvious reasons.

One of these is about Muhammad, they want to degrade him and show him as an ordinary Human being.

You're the one degrading Muhammad, not us. You degrade him by rejecting his teachings. What's wrong with Muhammad being an ordinary human being like the rest of us? In fact, this is what he claimed himself to be, an ordinary human being

Say, "I am no more than a human being like you, who has been inspired that your god is one god. You shall be devoted to Him, and ask His forgiveness. Woe to the idol worshipers. (416)

It's very interesting that, at the end of his stating this, he says, "Woe to the idol worshipers." This is illustrating that all those who view Muhammad as MORE than an ordinary human being, including you, are classified as idol worshipers. Considering Muhammad as an ordinary human being is not a degradation, it's stating the facts of who he really was. Even the rejectors knew this (1127), and you are on the same path as they were, rejecting the messengers because they are "ordinary human beings". If Muhammad was more than a human being, then what was he? As he said from his own mouth, "Woe to the idol worshipers."

631 of the Quran tells us
When the hypocrites come unto thee, they say We bear witness that thou art indeed Allah's messenger. And Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the hypocrites indeed are speaking falsely.
Let us not go into the definitions first. This ayat clearly tells us that people at time of Muhammad use to bear the witness of his name.

No, this verse clearly tells us that the HYPOCRITES of Muhammad's time used to bear witness of his name, just like the Sunnis do today. Where does the Quran say that the BELIEVERS bear witness of these things? And where is your shirk shahaada (i.e. "Ash-hadu an la ilaaha ila Allah waash-hadu ana Muhammad ar-rasuwlu Allah") stated in the Quran? How do you know people of Muhammad's time made this declaration?

Now after putting a lock on the false propaganda let us see what do RK sect and so called modern Muslims have to say about its definition
They say those who bear witness for Muhammad as a messenger of Allah are hypocrites, this is very poor understanding of the Quran for some, and hypocritical definition by some. The verse is not saying that hypocrites are the ones who bear witness that Muhammad is a Messenger. It is saying that those specific hypocrites are lying when they say that they bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. They say it, but don't mean it inside. The verse would not make sense. How can God accuse them of lying when they say Muhammad is a Messenger of Allah and it is there in the Quran at several places that Muhammad is a Messenger of Allah. Therefore every Muslim is hypocrite according to RK sect who reads the Quran daily and at several places recite Muhammad is messenger of Allah.
This was also pointed out by Behl.
Now after exposing the hidden intentions of RK sect let us see to their next allegation, they say to mention the name of Prophet with Allah is Shirk? Though one of them admitted it is not and after few lines he retreated and said it is.
They think that by putting Muhammad's name in the shahada means that we are not keeping the religion absolutely to Allah alone?
Putting Muhammad's name in the same sentence where there is Allahs name does not mean they are equal.
If I say that; "Akber was a great king and beerbal was his minister." Am I showing equality between the two?
The fact is that jealousy with Muhammad (PBUH) is not new in the hearts of missionaries and so called messengers who have no authentication from Quran.

Does this argument actually make sense to you? Because I assure you, IT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE. I already explained the issue of the hypocrites mentioned in chapter 63 of the Quran. The scripture plainly says they are hypocrites because of their "aymaan"/oath. In case you didn't notice, an "aymaan" is NOT the same this as a "shahaada". So, obviously, their "aymaan" is not talking about their testimony (i.e. Ash-hadu ana Muhammad ar-rasuwlu Allah). It is talking about the same oath that all submitters take, which is SUBMISSION TO GOD ALONE. By bearing witness about Muhammad alongside of Allah, they prove that they are hypocrites because they have rejected their oath after having taken it. This is why the scripture clearly states that they were "believers, then disbelievers". When the true submitters tell them the truth of what they've done and tell them to repent, they walk away prideful and arrogant, just like you are doing by rejecting Muhammad's own words and still claiming to be a "lover of Muhammad". You are a hypocrite. There is nothing wrong with stating that there is no god except Allah, and there is nothing wrong with stating that Muhammad is a messenger of Allah. However, you are adding to God's shahaada, and that is manmade innovation and blasphemy. Do you not understand? It is because of such hypocrisy that Muhammad will disown them, and, as foretold by the Quran

The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have deserted this quran." (2530)

Peace,

Ahmad

farida

I said that to you before To Say in front of GOD

So one should say this God though you have not mentioned the full shahada but your servents have taught me to say the shahada properly, so can I please enter Islam ???
Have you heard that there are some who claim that the "ruh" refused to enter Adam until Mohammad was mentioned. brickwall

but it is blasphemous to place his name alongside God's, making them "partners". In this sense, in the Sunni shahaada, Muhammad becomes "one of the two", like a partner alongside Allah, and Sunnis can't mention the name of Allah without mentioning Muhammad. This is shirk...

La ilaaha ila Allah (i.e. There is no god except Allah)

I often questioned Muslims why do they have Mohammad written next to Allah(even though writing just Allah makes no sense) and always got the reply; when we say shahada/Kalimah Mohammad is mentioned straight after Allah. Thus in many places you would see Mohammad written right next to Allah which make them appear equal partners.

But the believers are certainly alive, not dead (see 2154). So, it would be accurate to say that Muhammad IS a messenger of Allah,

3144 Muhammad is no more than an apostle many Were the apostle that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah. but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.

To All from a Lover of Muhammad (PBUH)

You Love Mohammad by acting on the guidance brought by him
472 But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.
Also research about the example of Mohammad ie the way he implemented Islam.
peace

mmkhan

Salaaman Farida,

So one should say this God though you have not mentioned the full shahada but your servents have taught me to say the shahada properly, so can I please enter Islam ???
Have you heard that there are some who claim that the "ruh" refused to enter Adam until Mohammad was mentioned. brickwall

rotfl

I often questioned Muslims why do they have Mohammad written next to Allah(even though writing just Allah makes no sense) and always got the reply; when we say shahada/Kalimah Mohammad is mentioned straight after Allah. Thus in many places you would see Mohammad written right next to Allah which make them appear equal partners.

True! Please refer to my post I wrote in 2005 http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9912.0

You Love Mohammad by acting on the guidance brought by him
472 But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.
Also research about the example of Mohammad ie the way he implemented Islam.
peace

MashaAllah sister, very well said.

Khan

afridi220

IThus in many places you would see Mohammad written right next to Allah which make them appear equal partners.3144

One should be prepared to die for the holy prophet

A sticker on the door of one of the mostly run-down classrooms showed the organization's militant streak

Jamaat-ud-Dawa

yes police

Raj-ah

Dear brother wayfinder

Peace Ra-Jah
Quote
631 of the Quran tells us
When the hypocrites come unto thee, they say We bear witness that thou art indeed Allah's messenger. And Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the hypocrites indeed are speaking falsely.

Then can you explain to me the RED part?? Why does Allah says this?? We already know He is 3aliimoul Hakeem... He knows everything... Then why that part in that same verse??

This is very clear from context of this Ayat and the Surah, Munafeqeen came to prophet and tried to convince him that we are Muslims now and in Allah we believed before and now we also believe in you as a messenger of Allah, therefore Allah is warning the messenger not to fall in the trap of hypocrites as they are not true Muslims by heart, they are just saying this by tongue, and they donot love You (Muhammad) as Allah has commanded in the Quran and they have jelousy towards you (Muhammad).
Because the usage of word "indeed" makes it further clear that before we did not said it but now we do.

way finder

Are we int the time of the Prophet? The Prophet is no more...

While we are at it.... why don't we bear witness that Musa,Isa,Suleymaan etc are messengers of Allah?? Why not?

Regards

Because with those prophets their teachings ended, not with the case of Muhammad, this is the last scriptures send by Allah for guidance of humankind, which cannot be corrupted, pure and Final, and Unluckily for many it was revealed un to Muhammad. Muhammad was declared messenger for all man kind, off course Allah knew that he cannot reach each and every person on the earth and has a limited life, but even then he was told in Quran to be messenger for all the worlds.
As long Quran is there Prophet is there, as long the words of Quran are alive the Prophet is alive.
Moreover for your information No one actually dies, it is mutation that takes place from one Aalam to the other, and if Shaheed can listen and eat then why cannot a Prophet. Physically every one has to die that is the system made by Allah. Offcourse they are not allowed to interfere with this world after physical death. In that case even Allah has made some systems and Allah also doesnot interfere.

Narated By 'Umar I heard the Prophet saying, "Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a Slave. So, call me the Slave of Allah and His Apostle."

So making it short friend, if i or any one donot consider Muhammad Equal to Allah, we are not commiting shirk, this very clear, so those who keep on babbling (not wayfinder) this should repent.

Muhammad is Rasul of Allah and Servant of Allah. I give this Shahada.

belH

Peace all
Beside 63-1 to 6 that proves the practice of saying "Ashado ink La Rssol Allah" during prophet time, the following is another well-established Verse

386
386 How can God guide a people who have rejected after believing, and they witnessed that the messenger is true, and the clarity had come to them? God does not guide the wicked people.

All the Believers are ORDERED to Testify with The Truth. One of the Truth in the Book, is Mohamed is a Messenger of God. If you want to conceal your Testimony, then do, but never ask others to do.

Who is more wicked than one who conceals a testimony with him from God? God is not unaware of what you do.(2-140)

4386 And those whom they call on beside Him do not possess any intercession; except those who bear witness to the truth, and they fully know.

Now, according to God, and not Rashad Kalifa, You are Free to Testify with any thing from the Book You can Testify that Moses Spoke To God; you can Testify that Jesus has No Father; and Abraham was Kalial (had a unique relationship with) Allah. If any one ask you to conceal your Testimony and you followed his advice, then you are making him an equal partner to God--a god.

Follow your choice, and always remember, God is the one who can porhibet and not Rashad Kalifa. God Knows every one intention when we say any thing, and if your intention is to idolize any Prophet, then God will know that.

Now.... I bear witness that God is protecting the Quran and not Code 19. I bear witness that 9-128 and 129 are God's Words.
jedi

belH

To All from a Lover of Muhammad (PBUH)

Peace all
Rai-ah...if I have love for any one, it is For ALLAH. And all Prophet are equal in my sight; I do not favor one over the Other (Prophet Mohamed Taught me that in Quran).

To Behl,
You agree that Allah has blessed some messengers over others and exalted some to higher rank. I hope so.

Yes, as I said before.

Dear, please take this example
There is a school and it has classes ranging from grade 1 to grade 10, there are 10 teachers 1 for each class, pupils have to respect all the teachers equally because they all are teachers, BUT these teachers differ in their qualifications some are assigned for 1st graders and some for 10th grade.

If you read the Quran in detail you will come to know that Muhammad was the seal on prophets, and the Final book which is for all Humanity was revealed un to him. You will also come to know that Muhammad is for ALL the Worlds.

But that is for Allah to rank them, and not for you or me; God never said that Prophet Mohamed is above any prophet; but I know that Prophet Mohamed was ordered to Follow Abraham Footsteps of believing and submitting;
I want you to know that I follow Allah Guidance that Prophet Mohamed taught us, the Quran.

Peace

belH

That is because the 5 prescribed salaat is in the Qur'aan and Tawhiyd has annhilated your 3 Salaat Theory from the roots on up....

http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaattheoryexposed.htm

According to wakas the majority under Progress Moslems believe that there is only 2 salaat and not 3 so who is right under this sect? But nevertheless both theories are refuted and holds no weight in Al Qur'aan.

So, why you did not answer to my analysis (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597472.msg186518#msg18651 which showed that you are wrong, according to Quran?

Al_Khidr

So, why you did not answer to my analysis (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597472.msg186518#msg18651 which showed that you are wrong, according to Quran?

BelH

You have asked why I have not responded. For one, I am not avoiding and you fail to realize this, I have debated this subject inside this forum among the Progressive Moslem sect or should I say internet cult and refuted everything they came up with. This debate can be examined below and the on Tawhiyd website; your 3 or 2 or 1 or 4 Salaat Theory have been destroyed a long time ago so for me its like beating a dead horse to go back and thoroughly engage again on this subject with you. Mr Deen also opened up another link to address this subject and I didn?t? engage in that either for the same reasons I?m conveying to you here. I only presented the links for those who have not been exposed to the counter arguments to the 3 Salaat Theory. All the points that you have raised have been refuted by the Tawhiyd website as well as my debate in this forum and the rest of the links below

Tawhiyd
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaattheoryexposed.htm

This is where I debated the 3 Salaat Theory in Free-Minds Forum
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12200.0

Wakas got intellectually defeated by a Sunni Muslim whose name is hlatif on the 3 Salaat Theory
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/wakaszeehlatifdebate.htm

Below is another link I want to add which refutes your arguments when I addressed tanvweer
http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/grabbingforstraws.htm

Now I will make some quick comments about a point you raised even though they already been addressed and refuted in all the links up above.

I see that you are fixed with the thought that a prayer has to be mentioned by name. However, mentioning a period to pray is just as efficient. Allah does not always have to mention something by name to refer to it and there are tons of examples of this in the Qur?aan.

BelH you have said

?Qur?aan 1778 was translator in the article as follow
You shall observe the Salaat when the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Qur?aan at dawn. (Reciting) the Qur?aan at dawn is witnessed.

The red part is added by the translated and is not written in Quran; thus, if you remove them, the verse is calling for Sunset prayer.
Moreover, 30-18 has no mentioning to establish prayer.?

Now examine the Arabic break down of this verse

http//i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd277/sayf22/Ch17v78Arabicbreakdown.jpg

Now when the Qur?aan 1778 says Liduluuki Ash-Shamsi literally means when the sun declines and we broke this down our websites and definitely visit this link to get a concise break down of this verse along with your statements that you made regarding Qur?aan 3018 and Qur?aan 2238

http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/grabbingforstraws.htm

Science proves that the sun starts to decline once it reaches its highest point so the translation is accurate. The sun starts to decline once it reaches its highest point. Liduluuki Ash-Shamsi is a period of time to observe salaat and this period is no doubt the noon period. The understanding of this very basic and elementary phrase Liduluuki Ash-Shamsi makes it clear as daylight. Then this verse continues by saying illa (till) ghasaq (sunset) and Al layl (night). This verse makes it crystal clear that the ranges or periods of salaat (worship) are from when the sun declines (which is noon) all the way to ghasaq (sunset) and al layl (night). In conclusion Qur?aan 1778 is referring to the ranges or periods for Salaat (Zuhr, Asr, Maghrib, Isha).

There are clearly 5 Salaat periods

(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr) given in 11114, 2458
(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuhr), given in 1778 and 3018
(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr), given in 2238
(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib), given in 11114
(5) The Night Prayer (Isha), given in 2458

So I?m done, you have our links refuting the 3 Salaat Theory and you have the conflicting links from the Progressive Moslem sect addressing all their 1, 2, 3, 4, Salaat Theory so what ever choice you make is between you and Allah.

Salaam

Al Khidr

belH

Science proves that the sun starts to decline once it reaches its highest point so the translation is accurate. The sun starts to decline once it reaches its highest point. Liduluuki Ash-Shamsi is a period of time to observe salaat and this period is no doubt the noon period. The understanding of this very basic and elementary phrase Liduluuki Ash-Shamsi makes it clear as daylight.

Peace all
Al Khider; you have answered to one point I raised and ignored the others. But feel free to answer in the appropriate thread. For now, you are claiming that we shall establish prayer from Noon till Dawn; in other words, Believers should abandon their work in order to fulfill this commandment; if this is the truth, why God said the following

In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
731 O you who are covered with your garments.
732 Stand the night except for a little.
733 Half of it, or a little less than that.
734 Or a little more, and arrange the Qur?an in its arrangement.
735 We will place upon you a saying which is heavy.
736 The time of the night is more effective and better for study.
737 For you have many duties during the day.

Thus, for the verses, in Chapter 73 and 17-78 and the other well-established verse, to agree with each others, we have to translate "Dlook Elshams" as Sun Set and not Noon.

Now answer to the other points I raised in my Prayers analysis

Moreover, please note the following verse
Qur?aan 2458
O you who believe, permission must be requested by your servants and the children who have not attained puberty. This is to be done in three instances-before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another. Allah thus clarifies the revelations for you. Allah is Omniscient, Most Wise.

Now, please note the red colored words and the blue ones. If there is a prayer during noon, why God did not mention (in blue word section) as He did when speaking about the Dawn and night (red colored section)?

May God lead us to the truth.
Peace

Al_Khidr

belH

Like i said I'm done with the subject on Salaat, now back to the original subject of this post which is SHAHAADA. It looks like you are trying to evade this subject hiding behind your false "3 Salaat Theory" which got ripped up a long time ago.

Now belH we have went this far on this post and you still have not produced just ONE verse in the Qur'aan that says your shirk/Sunni Shahaada

I bear witness that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah

WHY HAVEN'T YOU PRODUCED JUST ONE VERSE YET, THATS THE REAL QUESTION?

This is where this guy gets his Shahaada from

http//www.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/bukhari/002_sbt.html

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 7

Narrated Ibn 'Umar

Allah's Apostle said Islam is based on (the following) five (principles)

To testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is Allah's Apostle.
To offer the (compulsory congregational) prayers dutifully and perfectly.
To pay Zakat (i.e. obligatory charity) .
To perform Hajj. (i.e. Pilgrimage to Mecca)
To observe fast during the month of Ramadan.

Anybody can go to that link to see how Bukhari places Muhammad's name in the original Shahaada and this is where belH evidently gets it from since he can't quote one verse in the Qur'aan that bears this man-made innovation that he believes in.

http//i329.photobucket.com/albums/l363/kushitex/hadiyth/Ch45verse6.jpg

http//i329.photobucket.com/albums/l363/kushitex/hadiyth/Ch31verse6.jpg

belH

Now belH we have went this far on this post and you still have not produced just ONE verse in the Qur'aan that says your shirk/Sunni Shahaada

I bear witness that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah

WHY HAVEN'T YOU PRODUCED JUST ONE VERSE YET, THATS THE REAL QUESTION?

Here you go