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  4. Miracles

Miracles

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  • 1 Offline
    1 Offline
    1CELOSTNOWFOUND
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    Peace All

    There is some discussion in our community regarding miracles. Specifically things such as

    1. God cooling the fire for Abraham
    2. Moses parting the sea
    3. Moses turning stick into serpent

    I have seeing some articles regarding how the verses that mention these can be interpreted differently. However, what I would like some input on is - Does the Quran specifically state anywhere that God changes his natural laws?

    I would like to give an example for clarity as to what I am searching for here. A property of fire is that it burns provided all the necessary conditions are in place (i.e. ignition, oxygen, fuel, etc.). Also it seems that there are people who can somehow overcome this burning effect of fire (there are various examples of this, walking on coals, etc.). What I really want to know is does God change His natural laws on certain occasions. The operative word is "God". I am not looking for answers regarding people altering their state of conciousness or overcoming the elements in any other way.

    I hope I have been clear & not confusing. All comments would be welcome.

    Imraan

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    • A Offline
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      Ahmad_Bilal
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      As Salaamu Alaykum,

      What is the Qur'aanic view of "miracles"?

      Personally, I don't think miracles happen, at least not in the sense that many people do. There have to either be scientific explanations to explain the wonderous works described in the Qur'aan, or there must be a metaphorical interpretation of them. For example

      (1) Have people throughout history, even in the times of the prophets, been raised from the dead?
      (2) Did Moses really part the sea of reeds while he was fleeing from the Egyptians?
      (3) Can a man really be born of a virgin?
      (4) Did Muhammad actually split the moon, and how is this possible?
      (5) Did Allah really put a man to death for 100 years before resurrecting him?

      There are many examples of "miraculous" works being done, and many of them are directly mentioned in the Qur'aan. But after doing a thorough study of these incidents, I've come to the conclusion that miraculous works don't really happen, and all of these things are either metaphorical or they are in harmony with the laws of nature. If these kinds of things were literally happening back then, they'd still be happening today, and THEY'RE NOT. This leads me to believe that these things don't, and never did, actually happen in the way that most people interpret them. They're just not possible events. Many of them are also tied to Biblical miracles, which the Jews adamantly declare miraculous and against the universal laws of nature, but does that make them true? Does Allah change the laws of nature to fit certain purposes in certain circumstances?

      Is there anyone who specifically interprets the "miracles" described in the Qur'aan literally?

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      • F Offline
        F Offline
        farida
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        Peace All

        There is some discussion in our community regarding miracles. Specifically things such as

        1. God cooling the fire for Abraham
        2. Moses parting the sea
        3. Moses turning stick into serpent

        I have seeing some articles regarding how the verses that mention these can be interpreted differently. However, what I would like some input on is - Does the Quran specifically state anywhere that God changes his natural laws?

        I would like to give an example for clarity as to what I am searching for here. A property of fire is that it burns provided all the necessary conditions are in place (i.e. ignition, oxygen, fuel, etc.). Also it seems that there are people who can somehow overcome this burning effect of fire (there are various examples of this, walking on coals, etc.). What I really want to know is does God change His natural laws on certain occasions. The operative word is "God". I am not looking for answers regarding people altering their state of conciousness or overcoming the elements in any other way.

        I hope I have been clear & not confusing. All comments would be welcome.

        Imraan

        Salaam
        I beleive God has the power to do any miracle so when God tells us that He created Jesus, as he created Adam, we are not suppose to question how? God says be and it is.
        Others can have metaphorical explanations like

        1. Cooling the fire for Abraham... Often people try to make life hell for others and are surpised to see that all their vindictiveness does not result in agony for the person; as the saying goes adversity breeds progress
        2. Moses did not part the sea; rather God did. Have you seen how surfers manage to survive the parting of the giant waves as they arc around them.
        3. Moses did not turn the stick into a serpent but God made it possible for him as Pharaoh was using deceptions to create illusions.(A common practice nowadays on a very high scale). What Mosses was able to do was to swallow all their deception with his message of truth. Sorcerers always know the difference between illusion and truth which is why they submitted straight away.
          peace
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        • 1 Offline
          1 Offline
          1CELOSTNOWFOUND
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          Peace Ahmad & Farida

          Thanks for your posts. I posted this last year some time & have subsequently looked at the issue a little more. One of the books that really got me thinking is a book called Kitab-ul-Taqdeer. I found it to be an excellent book by G.A. Parwez. Have either of you read it?

          I could email you a copy if you're interested. It resolved many issues regarding miracles & the concept of taqdeer for me.

          Imraan

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          • J Offline
            J Offline
            Jim19
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            Shalum

            laugh

            it's what the traditionals muslim believe laugh

            do jhonas spent some days in the belly of whale ? laugh God created man in the image of his universe, not its image .

            we must studing the word ( Quran ) carefuly

            Abd-Allah Mecherbet

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              Ahmad_Bilal
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              Peace Imraan,

              Thanks for your posts. I posted this last year some time & have subsequently looked at the issue a little more. One of the books that really got me thinking is a book called Kitab-ul-Taqdeer. I found it to be an excellent book by G.A. Parwez. Have either of you read it?

              I could email you a copy if you're interested. It resolved many issues regarding miracles & the concept of taqdeer for me.

              Sure, if you're able to email a copy of the book, I'd love to have a look at it... I've been studying the concept of "miracles" for a while now, and a book that really helped me is the 2002 Qur'aanic translation and commentary by Maulana Muhammad Ali. It's widespread among the Lahore Ahmadiyya community, and they also believe the Qur'aanic "miracles" to be metaphorical or scientific; they teach that Allah does not work against the laws of nature, thus fulfilling His scripture, which states that His laws are unchangeable (including His "natural" laws). The book takes a scientific approach to all of the "miraculous" works mentioned throughout the scripture, and it shows the true meaning behind them and what they could actually entail and involve... If you want, you can check it out. I don't have a copy of it that I could email to you, but there are websites that you could check out that explain them very well, and even read his translation of the Qur'aan yourself...

              http//www.muslim.org/english-quran/quran.htm

              Peace,

              Ahmad

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              • F Offline
                F Offline
                farida
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                Peace Ahmad & Farida

                Thanks for your posts. I posted this last year some time & have subsequently looked at the issue a little more. One of the books that really got me thinking is a book called Kitab-ul-Taqdeer. I found it to be an excellent book by G.A. Parwez. Have either of you read it?

                I could email you a copy if you're interested. It resolved many issues regarding miracles & the concept of taqdeer for me.

                Imraan

                Salaam Imraan,
                No I havent read Kitab-ul-Taqdeer by by G.A. Parwez and it will be great if you could email me a copy. Many thanks in advance.
                peace

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                • A Offline
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                  Alen
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  Peace,
                  Respectfully.

                  Can miracles happen? Can rules and orders be broken?

                  1276 So he began with their bags before the bag of his brother. Then he brought it out of the bag of his brother. It was such that We planned for Joseph, for he would not have been able to take his brother under the system of the king, except that God wished it so. We raise the degrees of whom We please, and over every one of knowledge is the All Knowledgeable.

                  Maybe they can to make/prove a point, would you agree?
                  Prophet Joseph could not have taken his own brother as a captive/prisoner according to the system of the king but he was able to do that if God wished it/with God's permission.

                  Then again, God knows best.
                  Peace.

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                  • P Offline
                    P Offline
                    Prince
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    Peace,
                    Respectfully.

                    Can miracles happen? Can rules and orders be broken?

                    1276 So he began with their bags before the bag of his brother. Then he brought it out of the bag of his brother. It was such that We planned for Joseph, for he would not have been able to take his brother under the system of the king, except that God wished it so. We raise the degrees of whom We please, and over every one of knowledge is the All Knowledgeable.

                    Maybe they can to make/prove a point, would you agree?
                    Prophet Joseph could not have taken his own brother as a captive/prisoner according to the system of the king but he was able to do that if God wished it/with God's permission.

                    Then again, God knows best.
                    Peace.

                    Your interpretation is very weak in my opinion because the context of the verse is talking about 'deen' (system) and nothing about 'ayats' (signs/miracles).

                    PEACE

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                    • A Offline
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                      Ahmad_Bilal
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      Peace to all,

                      Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that Allah would work against Himself... In other words, why would He establish a law of gravity, and then subjectively violate His own law by giving one man the ability to fly around like Superman? Why would He establish a law of reproduction, and then break His own law by allowing one man to be born of a virgin woman, with no male interference at all? Why would He establish laws concerning life and death, instituting the idea that nobody could be raised up ("resurrected&quot prior to the day of resurrection, and then break His own established law by giving one man the ability to raise the dead? In fact, why would He establish a law that gives every human a predetermined lifespan, and then break His own established system by taking someone's life and then giving it back, just for them to lose it again? Doesn't that imply that He made a mistake the first time?

                      If Allah was all-wise and all-powerful, why would He works against Himself by breaking His own established laws and systematic cycles? Does this make sense?

                      Peace,

                      Ahmad

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                      • U Offline
                        U Offline
                        unknownuser
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        Peace to all,

                        Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that Allah would work against Himself... In other words, why would He establish a law of gravity, and then subjectively violate His own law by giving one man the ability to fly around like Superman? Why would He establish a law of reproduction, and then break His own law by allowing one man to be born of a virgin woman, with no male interference at all? Why would He establish laws concerning life and death, instituting the idea that nobody could be raised up ("resurrected&quot prior to the day of resurrection, and then break His own established law by giving one man the ability to raise the dead? In fact, why would He establish a law that gives every human a predetermined lifespan, and then break His own established system by taking someone's life and then giving it back, just for them to lose it again? Doesn't that imply that He made a mistake the first time?

                        If Allah was all-wise and all-powerful, why would He works against Himself by breaking His own established laws and systematic cycles? Does this make sense?

                        Peace,

                        Ahmad

                        to show us that He can do anything He wants and to show us that He really exists. peace

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                          Ahmad_Bilal
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          to show us that He can do anything He wants and to show us that He really exists. peace

                          Is that the purpose behind His signs? nope

                          Throughout the Qur'aan, Allah uses many things to prove His existence and supremacy. And NONE of them have anything to do with men flying around or being born of virgins. All of the things He mentions regarding attesting to His supremacy are natural things (i.e. rising and setting of the sun, construction of the universe, reproductive cycle, plants and animals, etc.). Not one of them ever alludes to any supernatural events taking place. In fact, the opposite would be shown in the case of supernatural events - people would be more inclined to worship humans, claiming that they have supernatural abilities, which is exactly what the Christian religion did to Jesus.

                          Do YOU have to watch somebody walk on water or raise a dead person to believe in the reality of God? If these supernatural events were used to attest to His existence, then why don't these things still happen today? Why haven't WE seen any of these miraculous events? You're saying that Allah cared about those of the previous generations, which is why He showed them "miracles" (according to you), but He doesn't care whether or not WE in this generation believe in Him or not?

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                            unknownuser
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            Is that the purpose behind His signs? nope

                            Throughout the Qur'aan, Allah uses many things to prove His existence and supremacy. And NONE of them have anything to do with men flying around or being born of virgins. All of the things He mentions regarding attesting to His supremacy are natural things (i.e. rising and setting of the sun, construction of the universe, reproductive cycle, plants and animals, etc.). Not one of them ever alludes to any supernatural events taking place. In fact, the opposite would be shown in the case of supernatural events - people would be more inclined to worship humans, claiming that they have supernatural abilities, which is exactly what the Christian religion did to Jesus.

                            Do YOU have to watch somebody walk on water or raise a dead person to believe in the reality of God? If these supernatural events were used to attest to His existence, then why don't these things still happen today? Why haven't WE seen any of these miraculous events? You're saying that Allah cared about those of the previous generations, which is why He showed them "miracles" (according to you), but He doesn't care whether or not WE in this generation believe in Him or not?

                            most people don't pay attention to what is obvious so god has to show miracles on demand. Today we can see miracles all arround us. Birth is normal thing but today you know the journey of sperm towards the egg and what happens in the womb after that, this is one example Allah is revealing his miracles more and more in this age through science, this is the reason why most of the people believe in god today than any other time.

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                              Ahmad_Bilal
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              most people don't pay attention to what is obvious so god has to show miracles on demand. Today we can see miracles all arround us. Birth is normal thing but today you know the journey of sperm towards the egg and what happens in the womb after that, this is one example Allah is revealing his miracles more and more in this age through science, this is the reason why most of the people believe in god today than any other time.

                              Sorry, bro, but that makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE, at all... If birth is "miraculous", then why would Allah have to do something beyond this (i.e. a virgin birth, which NOBODY can verify) to prove His existence? Also, if people saw a guy name Jesus walking on water and raising dead people to life, then EVERYBODY would've believed in him, right? How could he still have rejectors after all this?

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                                unknownuser
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                How could he still have rejectors after all this?

                                because for some it would still make ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE due to the blindfolds Allah put on their eyes, as we know Allah guides whomever He wishes.

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                                  Ahmad_Bilal
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #16

                                  because for some it would still make ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE due to the blindfolds Allah put on their eyes, as we know Allah guides whomever He wishes.

                                  So, what's the point in "miracles" again? ) Allah doesn't need "miracles" to convince anybody, and that's why supernatural events don't happen today, and they probably never happened in the past...

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                                    unknownuser
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #17

                                    So, what's the point in "miracles" again? ) Allah doesn't need "miracles" to convince anybody, and that's why supernatural events don't happen today, and they probably never happened in the past...

                                    some people believe without any miracle,

                                    some people don't believe without a miracle

                                    and rest do not bother in either case. (Kafireen)

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                                      Ahmad_Bilal
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #18

                                      some people believe without any miracle,

                                      some people don't believe without a miracle

                                      and rest do not bother in either case. (Kafireen)

                                      So, why were the people of the past awarded with miracles, but not the people of today?

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                                        unknownuser
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #19

                                        So, why were the people of the past awarded with miracles, but not the people of today?

                                        we are awarded with more miracles today. elhamdulillah science is revealing them one by one. I hope we agree on miracles now. May God bless you brother.

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                                          MUNZIR_ALI
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #20

                                          we are awarded with more miracles today. elhamdulillah science is revealing them one by one. I hope we agree on miracles now. May God bless you brother.

                                          hmm I never thought about that. Thanks for the reminder! handshake

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