And you believe in the WHOLE book?!
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Peace to all,
I think the thing to distinguish here is the word believe, the verse talks of those who believe either only in parts of the book or believe in the whole book. Even though they were previously given the book of God, some of the chosen chose not to believe and follow it, hence they were sent Jesus to correct their message, and they rejected him too, as they continue to reject Mohamad and the message of God he brought that , to me, is the same message but delivered to a different faculty. Moses brought the same message but delivered it to the body, hence the need for all the miracles and rituals of the old testament, the jews rejected so then jesus delivered the same message to the heart, hence all his attacks on the jews saying you got it all wrong, and this is why he used so many parables and analogies, again the jews rejected, then Mohamad delivered the final same message to the mind and the previous forms, so Quran has ritual, analogies, and reason, a combination of and confirmation of all previous scripture, but the only one with all three forms of revelation combined and refined and purified then protected, hence, body=ritual, heart=analogies and parables, mind= reason and thinking, all commands of the Quran.
Kurt
Peace Kurt,
The verse says 'those who were given a portion of the Book'. The Torah was in good shape at Mohammed's time so was the Injeel. And both can be used for judgements.
Why do they ask you to judge among them, when they have the Torah, containing GOD's law, and they chose to disregard it? They are not believers.
Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. Those who fail to judge according to Allah's Revelation are drifters from the Right Path.
Now we have 3 books with laws - Torah, Gospel and Quran. The word Torah means law and the gospels have no laws. What is going on here?!
Peace.
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Peace to all,
like i said rami, the torah is ritual, whic requires laws, it speaks mostly to body and race, hence the chosen ones, the gospel speaks to their hearts and these laws are hard wired into every soul and man canmake no law to regulate your hearts, the Quran is adressed to both prvious faculties and then finally to our mind and reason,
Kurt
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Peace Rami,
The verse says 'those who were given a portion of the Book'. The Torah was in good shape at Mohammed's time so was the Injeel. And both can be used for judgements.
There's no evidence to support your conclusions on the Torah and the Gospel being in "good shape" during Muhammad's time. Where did you get this from?
Now we have 3 books with laws - Torah, Gospel and Quran. The word Torah means law and the gospels have no laws. What is going on here?!
Where have you heard that the Gospel doesn't have laws? This is FALSE. The Gospel contains laws for the people, just like the Torah. You have to realize that both Jews and Nazirites were called "people of the book", referring to ONE BOOK. Once the Qur'an was delivered to the people, the muslims also became people of alkitaab/the book/the scripture. There is only one universal message of Allah. The Qur'an is repeatedly mentioned as "confirming/verifying/authenticating the previous scriptures", and this is what 2124 is referring to. The Qur'an is a reminder of Muhammad's message, and it's also a reminder of the messages before Muhammad (i.e. the Torah and the Gospel).
Also, I noticed that you mentioned the "GOSPELS" (plural), while the Qur'an only mentions one. This is a clear indication that the 4 Gospels, allegedly written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, are not part of the scriptures mentioned in the Qur'an called the Gospel. This goes back to the false belief that the Qur'an if referring to "Christians" when it uses the word "Nasara". Christians are not mentioned in the Qur'an as being monotheists; they are pagans and polytheists. The Qur'an speaks of Jews and Nazirites being people of the scripture.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Rami,
There's no evidence to support your conclusions on the Torah and the Gospel being in "good shape" during Muhammad's time. Where did you get this from?
Where have you heard that the Gospel doesn't have laws? This is FALSE. The Gospel contains laws for the people, just like the Torah. You have to realize that both Jews and Nazirites were called "people of the book", referring to ONE BOOK. Once the Qur'an was delivered to the people, the muslims also became people of alkitaab/the book/the scripture. There is only one universal message of Allah. The Qur'an is repeatedly mentioned as "confirming/verifying/authenticating the previous scriptures", and this is what 2124 is referring to. The Qur'an is a reminder of Muhammad's message, and it's also a reminder of the messages before Muhammad (i.e. the Torah and the Gospel).
Also, I noticed that you mentioned the "GOSPELS" (plural), while the Qur'an only mentions one. This is a clear indication that the 4 Gospels, allegedly written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, are not part of the scriptures mentioned in the Qur'an called the Gospel. This goes back to the false belief that the Qur'an if referring to "Christians" when it uses the word "Nasara". Christians are not mentioned in the Qur'an as being monotheists; they are pagans and polytheists. The Qur'an speaks of Jews and Nazirites being people of the scripture.
Peace,
Ahmad
Ok nice, then you admit the NT is a forgery. Agreed. What Book was the Jews and the Nazarites refering to?? Isn't the Book of Moses that is written in scrolls?? So the Torah and the Gospel is one Book? or the Book of Joshua after Moses is that of Jesus/Joshua.
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Peace Rami,
Ok nice, then you admit the NT is a forgery. Agreed. What Book was the Jews and the Nazarites refering to?? Isn't the Book of Moses that is written in scrolls?? So the Torah and the Gospel is one Book? or the Book of Joshua after Moses is that of Jesus/Joshua.
I agree that the book of Moses (i.e. "The Statute Book" was possibly written on scrolls. However, the Torah and the Gospel aren't necessarily regarded as one book. Rather, the Gospel can be possibly referred to as a continuation of the Torah, just as many people conclude that the Qur'an is a continuation of the Torah and the Gospel... Now, the man Joshua isn't the same person as Jesus ("Esa" mentioned in the Qur'an as delivering the Gospel. According to the Jewish Nazirites, they have their own Gospel account of Jesus, written in Aramaic, and it's different from the other 4 Gospels included in the Bible cannon. It dictates certain specific laws given to Jesus, which he delivered to his followers. They also allegedly have their own doctrines regarding the Law of Moses and the Book of Enoch. I'm not saying I believe their views and ideologies to be true and correct, but they seem to have a more solid basis of belief in God and practice in the true message of Jesus... Maybe you should examine the Gospel of the Nazarenes. It might be pretty informative to you and helpful in your search, and you could at least differentiate between this and the 4 Gospels of the Bible cannon...
Peace,
Ahmad
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oh my a debate between rami and bilal this should be pretty interesting as i respect both there views......
i sooooooooooo much love reading there posts groupSweet Anna, I am flattered! Thanks. But what do YOU think of that subject? To rev things up God taught Jesus 4 things
1.The Book
2.The Wisdom
3.The Torah
4.The Evangel
When we debate with the sunnis, we always say that the book and the wisdom are in the quran but when we come to what was Jesus taught we separate the Torah from the Gospel as two separate documents and fuse the Book and the Wisdom. Thats a question for Bilal too.Peace,
Rami
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Sweet Anna, I am flattered! Thanks. But what do YOU think of that subject? To rev things up God taught Jesus 4 things
1.The Book
2.The Wisdom
3.The Torah
4.The Evangel
When we debate with the sunnis, we always say that the book and the wisdom are in the quran but when we come to what was Jesus taught we separate the Torah from the Gospel as two separate documents and fuse the Book and the Wisdom. Thats a question for Bilal too.Peace,
Rami
from my understanding of the quran, god has the mother of all books, and in my own opinion each book that came down is only a chapter, but that is something i have come to beleive as it never speaks of books kootob rather kitab or book..... for i beleive the quran was the last chapter of the mother book........and i think he is referring to the mother book when he mentions the word kitab in the quran.......
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A portion of the Book can mean the scriptures they have since the Bible has different Books depending on denomination. Catholics have different Books within the Bible. The Dead Sea Scroll has Books that are not included in the Bible but has support from some Koranic verses. Also the Gospel has Laws but unlike the OT and Koran it does not have Human laws as much as the other scriptures. Law in scriptures has a much larger meaning than how humans understand laws.
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Peace Rami,
This gospel is LOST. Thats it, it's futile to go back to the previous revelations.
I disagree, brother. The Qur'an says that Allah's revelations are kept in a "preserved tablet" (8522), so the scripture is definately not "lost". Also, the scriptures indicate that certain people would still honor God's revelations, namely the Torah and the Gospel. So, although the authentic passages may not be uncovered in today's time period, the message contained in these scriptures is still present and observed.
God taught Jesus 4 things
1.The Book
2.The Wisdom
3.The Torah
4.The Evangel
When we debate with the sunnis, we always say that the book and the wisdom are in the quran but when we come to what was Jesus taught we separate the Torah from the Gospel as two separate documents and fuse the Book and the Wisdom.This is a very interesting concept that you brought up, and I've been looking into this issue for a time. And from what I've seen, throughout the Qur'an, the mentions of "alkitaaba wa' alhikmaata"/the book and the wisdom are often used together, especially to denote prophethood or messengership. Now, from what I've seen, this is usually referring to ONE SPECIFIC BOOK. For example, it says
And Allah took a covenant from the prophets, "For what I have given you from KITAABIN WA HIKMAATIN, then a messenger will come to you confirming what is with you. You will believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you testify, and agree to this burden?" They said, "We testify." He said, "Then bear witness, and I am with you bearing witness. (381)
This is a different context, and it uses the words "a book and wisdom", implying that all the prophets received one specific book. It also emphasizes that the "book" is not necessarily a literal book; it's possibly a knowledge of Allah's revelations. This would also be an accurate combination (i.e. knowledge and wisdom) to place alongside the revelations. Maybe this means that Jesus was given (1) knowledge and wisdom, referring to his pattern and way of life, and (2) the Torah and the Gospel, meaning Allah's prescribed revelations. Since all of Allah's prophets and messengers are models to their people in true belief, they should have knowledge of the scriptures as well as wisdom, allowing them to properly adhere to the knowledge and lead according to this knowledge. This is just a theory, though, not a definate conclusion... We should actually make a separate thread regarding this issue, so we can eventually come to a definate consensus regarding this matter.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Salam all,
bigmo, anna, bilal - Thanks for the input. It seems the believers with Mohammed believed in the whole book sent to to him unlike the people of the book's relation to the Book of Moses where they accepted part and threw part. Regarding the Bible today, it is a near complete forgery. The OT was written in Babylon by Ezra and they went to Jesrusalem with this book which appears in Qumran and with us today. These writings are referenced in this verse
541 O messenger, do not be saddened by those who increase in disbelief from among those who said We believe with their mouths while their hearts did not believe. And from among the Jews, there are those who listened to lies*; they listened to people who never came to you**; they distort the words from their context, and they say If you are given this, then take it, but if you are given anything different, then beware!*** And whoever God wants to test, then you will not possess anything for him against God. These are the ones whose hearts God did not want to cleanse; in this world they will have humiliation, and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.
*Thats the corrupted ''out of context'' Torah.
**Because they are in Jerusalem they have the corrupted text we see in Qumran and the King James Bible.
***Deu 42 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. -This verse will keep the Jews from accepting any prophet with a new revelation.Additional proofs that the old testament is not the Torah the Quran talks about is that the Quran quotes the Torah and the OT doesn't contain these quotes. Actually the OT doesn't mention the afterlife AT ALL. This means Moses didn't believe in the afterlife which is absurd according to the Quran. The OT calls all the Kings of Egypt 'pharaoh' which is an incredible heresy on its own. Even the prohibitions of the Torah quoted in the Quran is very different from the ones found in the OT. The Quran never mentions anything about birds which seem to be completely forbidden(see my post at 'halal'meat thread) but in the OT it classifies the birds into Kosher and non-Kosher. The OT allows usury on the gentiles but the Quran declares war on usury and mocks the Jews for devouring interest. The Torah was rationalized and edited in Babylon by Ezra and all of the incredible miracles of the Jewish prophets eg Solomon, the concept of the seven heavens and the afterlife only survives in the memory of the jewish traditions. The OT says that the magicians of Moses created REAL snakes which is said in the Quran to be just an optical trick.
As regard the NT, this has no resemblance whatsoever to the Injeel of the Quran. It is a story of a Buddha like character who was stuck between secular Rome and the Babylonian Jews and the poor fellow ended with the cross! Then the Romans with Titus killed the jews and destroyed the temple in Jeruslaem and never to be rebuilt again. It seems God of Israel doesn't give a damn for this false temple. The poor jews are still waiting for the Messiah!! He left them for 2400 years from Malachi and didn't bother to send a prophet to them. This is simply because the Bible is a forgery and the real Torah and Evangel were with the Arabs. And God's temple is in Arabia. What happened in 66 AD was a serious punishment by God through Titus on the Jews for not listening to Jesus and returning with him to the holy land in Arabia. They went to Arabia by FORCE.
Pretty harsh post
Peace,
Rami