Verses on Homosexuality
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I'll rephrase what I said then
Well then everyone is a failure all the time and nothing we do is ever enough because everyone of us has the potential to be an astronaut, geneticist, psychologist, painter, rock star, etc., but not everyone of us is any of those things let alone all of them. Do you now see how unreasonable it is to expect humans to do everything they have the potential to do? Yes, many of us are potential parents but some of us choose not to be because we've other priorities, just like a painter who likes painting more than genetics.
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Nobody's perfect, but that doesn't mean you have to be completely imperfect or wallow in your own crapulence. It is still good to do good things and bad to do bad things. Giving life to a human being and raising them in a happy family is a good thing, and much more possible than being an astronaut or running for president. Therefore choosing not to do the good things that are most possible is a serious failure - hence a sin.
Think of Mr Bush. What is he going to be remembered for, and what will he be blamed for. Will people say "how disappointing, he didn't send up more astronauts"? Will they say "How disappointing, there weren't enough Olympic athletes trained"? I think not - his legacy is the war, the bodies - because avoiding pointless wars is really a very important aspect of being a head of state. Likewise, for an ordinary human being, creating and protecting life - propagating and perpetuating the species, is really a very important aspect of human existence. Choosing to neglect this duty is an abrogation of human nature.
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Nobody's perfect, but that doesn't mean you have to be completely imperfect or wallow in your own crapulence.
I wasn?t saying you shouldn?t even try to be good because you can?t be perfect. Please don't put words in my mouth.
It is still good to do good things and bad to do bad things. Giving life to a human being and raising them in a happy family is a good thing,
True, but so is becoming an astronaut, doctor and so on. Why choose having kids over a career in astronomy or helping the poor, helping orphans, etc.?
and much more possible than being an astronaut or running for president.
Alright, having kids is easier than becoming an astronaut or president, but adopting homeless orphans is way easier than conceiving, pregnancy, labour and raising a newborn baby.
Therefore choosing not to do the good things that are most possible is a serious failure - hence a sin.
Using that illogic, one could argue that you should adopt kids instead of having kids of your own.
Think of Mr Bush. What is he going to be remembered for, and what will he be blamed for. Will people say "how disappointing, he didn't send up more astronauts"? Will they say "How disappointing, there weren't enough Olympic athletes trained"? I think not - his legacy is the war, the bodies - because avoiding pointless wars is really a very important aspect of being a head of state. Likewise, for an ordinary human being, creating and protecting life - propagating and perpetuating the species, is really a very important aspect of human existence. Choosing to neglect this duty is an abrogation of human nature.
Ridiculous and deceptive analogy! You?re comparing going to war to not having kids! You see, a country at war kills people, but a couple that decides not to have kids doesn?t kill anyone at all. Please don't give me that "If you believe in the sanctity of human life, then you must believe that the lives of unborn people are also sacred" claptrap. How can it be sacred when human life that doesn't exist isn't even human life to begin with!? If it was, then everyone's a killer because everyone is capable of having many, many kids. A man produces thousands of sperms every minute and many of those are potential humans. You keep saying it?s a duty to perpetuate the species, but you?ve not told us why. Why should every individual have to reproduce? What danger will humans be in if some people decide not to have kids? I?ve asked you several questions which you?ve conveniently ignored. Thus far all you've done is use the same argument against homosexuality in different words and compare homosexuality to awful things like war.
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The reason why killing is bad is because human life is valuable.
And do you want to know the difference between having children and trying to be an astronaut?
If you try and be an astronaut but fail, that's it. You've failed.
If you both have children and try and be an astronaut - if you fail, your children can later go on to succeed. You can indeed adopt, and that is a worthy thing to do - but your children will be happier if you are their real parent. It's still the issue of wasted potential. It isn't the sperm that are wasted. It's the wholeness of your identity - the combination of DNA, biology and upbringing.
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What are the verses in the Quran that pertain to homosexuality. I've been noticing that many people that I know are becoming pro-gay or tolerant of gays. I think this stems from the fact that you will get a bashing for making fun of homosexuals or expressing your own opinion on how they should not marry. A few years back there was a newspaper article about an interview of a "gay muslim" who said that the Quran was perfectly okay with homosexuality. wow
Also, do you think that people are born with homosexuality and so it is a test from god or do you believe its a "choice."
Peace be unto you, brother,
May God guide us to the Truth, and may we find refuge in God from satan the rejected.
Homosexuality is condemned. Period. End of story.
Surah 416, 780-81, 26165-166, 2754-55, 2928-29We are told to read the Scriptures and Torah as well. I can give you verses that further condemn it from both Books if you wish.
Men and women who practice the alternative lifestyle do so by choice. Along their path of life there was either an incident of abuse, or their parents did not raise them in a manner appropriate to their gender which reinforced the confusion. The majority of people I've spoken to while living in the SF/Bay Area are victims of sexual abuse as a child, usually at the hands of a loved one.
Having said that, there is no reason to act in a non-benevolant manner towards people who walk this path. They are still brothers and sisters, and deserve our concern and prayers. Yet for myself, I do not take them for friends or associates as it shows approval of their lifestyle choice. I do not like it, and being a victim of abuse as a child, I personally know there is no excuse for living in such a manner. Especially if they profess to worship God.
If anyone is attempting to seek validation from God for this lifestyle choice, they will not find it.
Edit Seeing some of the responses to this topic, I have to ask my fellow brothers and sisters of God When did modesty go out the window, especially in a public venue?
Peace and blessings.
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And do you want to know the difference between having children and trying to be an astronaut?
If you try and be an astronaut but fail, that's it. You've failed.
Ummm, no. You can always try to be an astronaut again and again. And there are other careers too that you can choose instead of having kids so why not choose them instead?
If you both have children and try and be an astronaut - if you fail, your children can later go on to succeed.
So what? What if you spend the time it takes to raise kids and all that and train people to be astronauts instead?
You can indeed adopt, and that is a worthy thing to do - but your children will be happier if you are their real parent.
Dicto simpliciter (sweeping generalization) logical fallacy. There are adopted kids who love their foster parents more than some kids love their biological parents.
It's still the issue of wasted potential.
Indeed. You can do so much if you decide not to have kids. Kids are expensive, you can?t get much sleep because of them and they drive you up the wall. And not all of them turn out fine. Even kids that are raised in the best homes can become horrible people.
It isn't the sperm that are wasted.
Sperms are potential babies so when they?re wasted, potential babies are wasted.
It's the wholeness of your identity - the combination of DNA, biology and upbringing.
Well said. Since kids are a combination of DNA, biology and upbringing, not having kids isn?t wasted potential. It?s just wasted sperms and eggs. You?ve inadvertently debunked your own argument.
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Peace raginggaijin,
Homosexuality is condemned. Period. End of story.
Surah 416, 780-81, 26165-166, 2754-55, 2928-29Those verses condemn homosexuality because you say so?
We are told to read the Scriptures and Torah as well. I can give you verses that further condemn it from both Books if you wish.
Yeah, and the Torah also tells you to kill kids if they swear at their parents, to sacrifice them to the god of the Israelites, to circumcise little boys and to marry off raped women to the men who rape them. Do you think we should assume all those commandments are from the god who wrote the quran? If not, then why should we choose to follow the Torah?s commandments regarding homosexuality?
Men and women who practice the alternative lifestyle do so by choice.
I argued against this earlier, but I now think there?s some truth in it. Science shows that homosexuality is a choice and involuntary. However, even it is a choice, I don?t see why it?s wrong.
Along their path of life there was either an incident of abuse, or their parents did not raise them in a manner appropriate to their gender which reinforced the confusion.
Research into sexuality is still ongoing so no one can say for certain what causes homosexuality.
The majority of people I've spoken to while living in the SF/Bay Area are victims of sexual abuse as a child, usually at the hands of a loved one.
Anecdotal evidence.
Having said that, there is no reason to act in a non-benevolant manner towards people who walk this path. They are still brothers and sisters, and deserve our concern and prayers.
Why do they deserve your ?concern? and your ?prayers? when they?re perfectly normal people capable of living moral lives?
Yet for myself, I do not take them for friends or associates as it shows approval of their lifestyle choice.
You?ve every right not to befriend certain people and to disapprove of a certain lifestyle, but you can?t change the fact that it?s downright wrong to discriminate against people on the basis of something that isn?t wrong and that doesn?t cause any harm to anyone.
I do not like it, and being a victim of abuse as a child, I personally know there is no excuse for living in such a manner. Especially if they profess to worship God.
I?m sorry that you were abused as a kid, but why should there even have to be an excuse for being gay? Why is being gay wrong?
If anyone is attempting to seek validation from God for this lifestyle choice, they will not find it.
Because you say so?
Edit Seeing some of the responses to this topic, I have to ask my fellow brothers and sisters of God When did modesty go out the window, especially in a public venue?
Where?s the immodesty in this discussion? Openness isn?t immodesty. Openness is healthy and constructive. Having lived in Pakistan for 14 years, I know just how destructive conservatism and close-mindedness really are.
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Peace be unto you, sodomite,
May God guide you to the Truth and may God unveil your heart.
"And Lot, when he said to his people Do you commit foul deeds, while you see? Will you come after men lustfully rather than women? Nay, you are a people who act ignorantly." Surah 2754-55
God says so. If you want to rationalize your soul away to enjoy lusting after men, that's on you. I am not a guardian, only a messenger and warner preceding God's Judgement.
As for the Torah telling us to kill our children if they become too much of a sinful burden, I present yourself as a perfect example of such a child. I've read this forum as well as others, and you only bring division, perversion, and sin to this forum. In no way have I seen your actions or words bring glory to God, only the deception of satan's lies in an attempt to rationalize the carnal heart of man. Based on your own words, you work for the deceiver with the filth you spread in this forum and the division you spread in others.
Surah 1865-82, specifically 80.
Same-sex relations are a perversion to God. God said it is, what a man's carnal heart wishes mean naught. Why are you even arguing about it when you know God condemns it? This shows me how hard a hold the deceiver has on your heart. And it brings to light my studies last night
"And who is more unjust than he who is reminded of the messages of his Lord, then he turns away from them and forgets what his hands have sent before? Surely We have placed veils over their hearts, lest they understand it, and a deafness in their ears. And if thou call them to the guidance, they will even then not follow the right course." Surah 1857
I have every right to choose who comes around me and my child. I have every right to choose who I associate with and who I do not. As well, we are taught in the Quran to not take unbelievers as friends. If you read the Quran, you would know this. Yet again, your words bring division and attempt to rationalize your buggery. Not gonna happen, and it's not because I say so.
Because God says so.
Let's play a magic trick. It's called 'Watch your soul enter the Fire'.
This 'open discussion', sodomite, about all sorts of sexual acts has no place in a public venue. Living in Pakistan at one time, you know this as well. What happens between a married man and a woman while inside their house is between them. God has placed no restrictions on what you can or cannot do with a woman, so trying to set limits is wicked. God tells us to till the field as often as we want. God does not tell us to not do anything else with her. Again, that is between a man and a woman and does not belong on these forums.
If you wish to get your perverse jollies speaking of such acts, then do it in private messages. We are taught to act modestly, to not be a hindrance to others. Already believers have participated in this sin along with you. I need not 4 witnesses to attest to the sin written in this forum alone, when it has how many views already!?! Again division and perversion in the form of the humanistic 'open debate' and condemnation of 'closed mindedness'. Get thee behind me, satan.
There is no debate! Homosexuality is condemned by God. Only those who are unbelievers cannot see it.
Why so serious? You don't think your an unbeliever? Everything about you proves otherwise; from your icon to your words. A man or woman knows the Quran is God's Word as sure as they know their children. Only those who do not believe are the ones who protest when their lifestyle is condemned. You wll know them by the fruits of their works, and your barren fruit comes from a withered vine.
If you truly love God, then you will seek God and work to change your life to follow God. I will pray for you.
Until you change though, welcome to Ignore. I will exercise my right to avoid the perverse peoples of sodomy and those who embrace immodesty. It has no place in a arena where God is worshipped and His Word studied.
I will pray for you. May God unveil your heart, and may you truly search for God's Word and guidance.
Peace and blessings.
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"And Lot, when he said to his people Do you commit foul deeds, while you see? Will you come after men lustfully rather than women? Nay, you are a people who act ignorantly." Surah 2754-55
My humble understanding of those verses takes other verses regarding Lot?s nation into consideration. You can?t have sex with any woman even if you?re a guy. The woman a straight man has sex with has to be his wife and so when Lot said ?You have sex with the men instead of the women!? he meant that his people were wrong to cheat on their wives. This understanding is confirmed by the following verse
26166 ?And you leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people!?
God says so.
I?ve reason to believe It doesn?t.
As for the Torah telling us to kill our children if they become too much of a sinful burden, I present yourself as a perfect example of such a child.
That doesn?t answer my question. Should we follow the Torah?s commandments to kill foul-mouthed children?
Surah 1865-82, specifically 80.
The being who killed that boy couldn?t have been a real man. I think he was imaginary and that the story is merely a parable. Oh and it?s very cheap to hint that I ought to be killed.
The god doesn?t command or tolerate evil and so no one acting on the god?s orders would kill an innocent boy
728 And if they commit evil acts, they say ?We found our fathers doing such, and God ordered us to it.? Say ?God does not order evil! Do you say about God what you do not know??
Same-sex relations are a perversion to God. God said it is,
Really? Show us verses and put forth a good argument in support of your belief.
I have every right to choose who comes around me and my child. I have every right to choose who I associate with and who I do not.
I was never disputing any of that. I clearly said that you do have the right to pick your friends and believe what you want to.
As well, we are taught in the Quran to not take unbelievers as friends.
Let?s look at what the quran really says
608-9 God does not forbid you from those who have not fought you because of your system, nor drove you out of your homes, that you deal kindly and equitably with them. For God loves the equitable. But God does forbid you regarding those who fought you because of your system, and drove you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out. You shall not ally with them. Those who ally with them, then such are the transgressors.
This 'open discussion', sodomite, about all sorts of sexual acts has no place in a public venue.
You say that like it?s a good thing. I think it?s a shame that people don?t have the patience, the courage and the maturity to discuss these things openly.
If you wish to get your perverse jollies speaking of such acts, then do it in private messages. We are taught to act modestly, to not be a hindrance to others.
This discussion is a hindrance to you because you?ve chosen to let it be a hindrance to you. Many of my opponents in this debate haven?t been ?hindered? by this discussion at all, and even if they have, they?ve had the good sense and the maturity not to let it show. Perhaps you should learn from them.
The rest of your message is full of ad hominem attacks against me and sanctimonious horseshit so I will not condescend to respond to any of it.
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Ummm, no. You can always try to be an astronaut again and again. And there are other careers too that you can choose instead of having kids so why not choose them instead?
So what? What if you spend the time it takes to raise kids and all that and train people to be astronauts instead?
Dicto simpliciter (sweeping generalization) logical fallacy. There are adopted kids who love their foster parents more than some kids love their biological parents.
Indeed. You can do so much if you decide not to have kids. Kids are expensive, you can?t get much sleep because of them and they drive you up the wall. And not all of them turn out fine. Even kids that are raised in the best homes can become horrible people.
Sperms are potential babies so when they?re wasted, potential babies are wasted.
Well said. Since kids are a combination of DNA, biology and upbringing, not having kids isn?t wasted potential. It?s just wasted sperms and eggs. You?ve inadvertently debunked your own argument.
I disagree. You're a human being with or without upbringing. And when you argue against kids - you are arguing against humanity, and thus morality itself. I don't think you have any clear idea of what you believe in, you're just against any suggestion that the political status quo which says sexuality doesn't matter might be wrong.
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I disagree. You're a human being with or without upbringing.
I said "Kids are a combination of DNA, biology and upbringing". I assumed it was clear that by "upbringing", I meant that a kid is created only when it is conceived.
And when you argue against kids
I'm doing no such thing. Please don't put words in my mouth.
- you are arguing against humanity, and thus morality itself.
I've already addressed this illogical argument. You're free to believe that humans who don't exist are humans with human rights, but please realize that such a belief isn't very smart.
I don't think you have any clear idea of what you believe in,
What makes you think that?
you're just against any suggestion that the political status quo which says sexuality doesn't matter might be wrong.
I'm open to the possibility that it might be wrong, but thus far I see no reason to accept that it's wrong.
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Salam,
I am new to this topic.
Surely the best way for a homosexual to prove that one can be righteous and gay at the same time is to behave righteously, give to charity, offer help etc
The only gay person I know is quite deceitful and a regular backbiter...this is probaby a very bad example, lol.My biological knowledge isnt very good, but if one is born homosexual then wont the gene have slowly dissapeared due to natural selection??
Thanks,
Peace -
peace all,
This topic has been discussed in a lot of detail in the past, so I'm sure I will just be repeating what has already been said, but
My understanding is as follows
The Quranic ruling on homosexuality is that one can be homosexual but cannot participate in proven/clear/evident/public homosexual acts (e.g. homosexual sex). If they do, they can be punished according to Quranic guidelines. If they commit homosexual acts in private, no action in this life can be taken against them, but of course, what happens to them in the next life is up to God and would likely involve punishment.
Thus, the best course of action for a homosexual person would be to remain chaste (unless their situation changes). Similar to a heterosexual person remaining chaste until (if) they get married.
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peace all,
This topic has been discussed in a lot of detail in the past, so I'm sure I will just be repeating what has already been said, but
My understanding is as follows
The Quranic ruling on homosexuality is that one can be homosexual but cannot participate in proven/clear/evident/public homosexual acts (e.g. homosexual sex). If they do, they can be punished according to Quranic guidelines. If they commit homosexual acts in private, no action in this life can be taken against them, but of course, what happens to them in the next life is up to God and would likely involve punishment.
Thus, the best course of action for a homosexual person would be to remain chaste (unless their situation changes). Similar to a heterosexual person remaining chaste until (if) they get married.
Society is not concerned if someone is doing secretly, however if two males indulge in in visible manner then
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peace all,
This topic has been discussed in a lot of detail in the past, so I'm sure I will just be repeating what has already been said, but
My understanding is as follows
The Quranic ruling on homosexuality is that one can be homosexual but cannot participate in proven/clear/evident/public homosexual acts (e.g. homosexual sex). If they do, they can be punished according to Quranic guidelines. If they commit homosexual acts in private, no action in this life can be taken against them, but of course, what happens to them in the next life is up to God and would likely involve punishment.
Thus, the best course of action for a homosexual person would be to remain chaste (unless their situation changes). Similar to a heterosexual person remaining chaste until (if) they get married.
I agree with Wakas on this.
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If they commit homosexual acts in private, no action in this life can be taken against them, but of course, what happens to them in the next life is up to God and would likely involve punishment.
Thus, the best course of action for a homosexual person would be to remain chaste (unless their situation changes). Similar to a heterosexual person remaining chaste until (if) they get married.
Does that seem reasonable?
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I've already addressed this illogical argument. You're free to believe that humans who don't exist are humans with human rights, but please realize that such a belief isn't very smart.
You seem to see no use in them existing. If as you say - "Kids are a combination of DNA, biology and upbringing" - then it is still the case that wasting these three parts, failing to contribute, is wasted potential. Talking about astronauts doesn't change this.
Since you said "not having kids isn?t wasted potential" - that does suggest you think very little of human procreation.
I see Islam really being about making use of what God has given us. I mean, it is true the bible mentions the story of God destroying Sodom once, whilst the Quran seems to mention it again and again and again, chapter after chapter, obsessively! And whilst the bible is generic about the reasons the city was destroyed, the Quran is specific -
And Lot, he said to his people ?Do you commit lewdness such as none of those of the worlds had done before??
?You come to men with desire instead of women; you are a transgressing people.?I'm not a fundamentalist, I think this story is a metaphore, not a historical event. But where there is smoke, there is fire, where did the Prophet's passion come from, in telling this story, repeating it again, and again, and again? It is this issue of wasted human potential, that's what the destruction of the city means. This is the same metaphore Plato uses in The Republic - the city-state symbolises the individual, the person. God destroying the city for its behaviour represents us destroying ourselves, the self annihilation of genetic oblivion.
