Is Muhammad prophet or Messenger ?
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Considering various verses in Quran, there is a clear difference between the two status. Eg. 2252. There are so many verses in which Allah individually describes some nabis as "He had been a messenger and a prophet." And with reference to 3144 and 48 29 this topic is started. We will deal with 33 40 also in the later part of the discussion. But first what is a 'prophet hood' and what is 'messengership'?
Regards
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"3340 Mohammed was not the father of any of your men, but he is
the messenger of God and the seal of the prophets.."At this point was Muhammed alive? I know the topic is about messengership and prophethood. But the past tense has bugged me for some time. Supposed he had died, the revelations were still going on even after Muhammed's death. So if this is the case..No more prophets but messengership was still going on. By what I mean by messengership is that someone was around after the death of the last prophet to narrate this. So another thing would be that Mohamed was ot the last human being to receive inspirations/directions from God if this part of the scripture/writing had been divinely authorized.
The thing about prophethood in the quran has been closely related to a nation/race.Maybe it is a lineage thingy..donno..guessing...
If you look closely at 3340, the messenger whoever it was (God bless him) had been sent to a people to whom Mohamed was not an ancestor (if the prophethood is related to a nation/race)..maybe..."689 Those to whom We have given the Scripture, and the law, and the prophethood, if they reject it, then We will entrust it to a people who will not reject it." ala adam's "khalifawood"?
Hopefully we can research/contemplate a little more on this ..
peace.
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"3340 Mohammed was not the father of any of your men, but he is
the messenger of God and the seal of the prophets.."At this point was Muhammed alive? I know the topic is about messengership and prophethood. But the past tense has bugged me for some time. Supposed he had died, the revelations were still going on even after Muhammed's death. So if this is the case..No more prophets but messengership was still going on. By what I mean by messengership is that someone was around after the death of the last prophet to narrate this. So another thing would be that Mohamed was ot the last human being to receive inspirations/directions from God if this part of the scripture/writing had been divinely authorized.
The thing about prophethood in the quran has been closely related to a nation/race.Maybe it is a lineage thingy..donno..guessing...
If you look closely at 3340, the messenger whoever it was (God bless him) had been sent to a people to whom Mohamed was not an ancestor (if the prophethood is related to a nation/race)..maybe..."689 Those to whom We have given the Scripture, and the law, and the prophethood, if they reject it, then We will entrust it to a people who will not reject it." ala adam's "khalifawood"?
Hopefully we can research/contemplate a little more on this ..
peace.
Rajah,
Muhammad means the 'Praise worthy and reliable person' earned by the chosen one by God (all glory be to Him) whom He had guided in righteousness. It is not the name christened by the parents. Ahmad, Muhammad all are the same; it is the name earned from the people by the God chosen ones that lived among them for quite a time. Such Muhammads Allah shall choose from among the nations and communities and in all linguistic populations to teach and explain the Book and to imbibe them with the wisdom. Even today there may be 100s of such chosen muhammads around the world explaining the Book and giving them the wisdom and insight in each linguistic community. When the muhammads are belied, or die, or killed, or driven to a different nation then comes the calamity such as earthquake, floods, tsunami etc. This has been the sunnah of Allah and you will not see a change in the nature of events that destroy nations.
So wherever there are natural calamities, it is understood that a muhammad was belied there. In Turkey, in Pakistan, in Gujarat and in so many places we see Allah's Sunnah repeating itself without a mistake.
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salaam
perhaps you may want to ponder about the declaration or statement after the moulding of 'adam' from 'earth' (or clay, or mud, or whatever translation you might have with you).
Progressive Muslims (en)
Chapter 5
5110 God said ?O Jesus son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and to middle-age; and I taught you the Scripture and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Injeel; and you would create from clay the shape of a bird, then blow into it and it becomes a bird by My leave; and you heal the blind and the leaper by My leave; and you brought out the dead by My leave. And I have restrained the Children of Israel from you, that you came to them with proofs; but those who rejected amongst them said ?This is clearly magic!??Chapter 12
1287 ?My sons, go and inquire about Joseph and his brother, and do not give-up from God?s Spirit. The only people who would give-up from God?s Spirit are the rejecters of faith.?Chapter 15
1529 ?So when I perfect him, and blow of My Spirit in him, you shall yield to him.?Chapter 17
1785 And they ask you concerning the Spirit. Say ?The Spirit is from the authority of my Lord; and the knowledge you were given was but very little.?Chapter 38
3872 ?So when I have evolved him, and breathed into him from My Spirit, then you shall yield to him.?the question is, "Is that spirit still with us?"
what is the probability, or possibility that the 'spirit' in those verses is 'muhammad'?
no. this is not about 'muhammad' the prophet. this is about 'muhammad' as mentioned by drfadzl.and btw, perhaps you may want to consider that 'muhammad khataman nabiy' could mean 'muhammad is the 'ring' of prophets.'
perhaps you can likened it like the ring for your set of keys in the pocket right now. so, 'muhammad' is the holding 'ring'. this is merely an example, a metaphor or 'mithal' if you like.
could 'muhammad' the 'ring' be perhaps the 'rasool' in each and everyone of us? could 'muhammad' in the qur'an be that 'spirit'?
we learn in the qur'an that 'muhammad' is a 'rasool' or deliverer of good news, and warnings. some nabiyeen were mentioned as 'rusool', this i suppose (please get a verification from God), happen when the 'rusool' in them were the prominent in their daily life. perhaps when active in those 'nabiyeen', these 'nabiyeen' were termed as 'rasool' - they delivered good news and warnings. when at this state, 'nabiyeen' did not commit any wrongs or mistakes. some (mostly sunnis) believe 'nabiyeen' are 'maksoom', but i suspect (please get a verification from God, please) it is rather when the spirit of God or the 'rasool' or the 'muhammad' in those 'nabiyeen' were prominent, then they were 'maksoom'. otherwise, they are regular humans like you and me, with perhaps a little difference in that they spent most of their times in seclusion, simply to be closer with God. we read in the qur'an that some 'nabiyeen' received reprimands, muhammad included.
so as a spirit, it is not female nor male. it is not a son, nor a father.
please ponder carefully. and get your answers from God, for God does not teach and then leave man just like that. He is watching with full cognizance.
peace
mohammed noh
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Nice take on the subject on Muhammad. Either it could be seen as a human entity or a driving spirit.
okay. back to the subject on -prophet or Messenger ?According to the quran Muhammad the human entity was both. if I am not wrong prophethood could be about race/lineage 689 . Ever heard of a Nordic (Scandanavian) prophet? Ever heard of any Norse scripture that closely resembles Torah,Quran, One God-the Allah-type? I have never..If any of you siblings have seen one.read one,please come forward. What about Australian aboringines? were they given and in which written form? Prophets were given scriptures which was also meant for his folks...language could be the key here...
Of course messenger prophets might have tried to reach the ones remote from the whole thing, people deprived of a standard written and spoken language that could have built them volumnous libraries of literary works.....Even today there are tribes with no discernable writing sytem..of course we can expect people spreading the "arabic" religion to them with predetermined biased translations ...(that's another sad story) Well Muhammad or whoever it was in the human form could have tried his best spreading the sciptures throughout the world..(21107 And We have not sent you except as a mercy to the worlds).
messengers have always been in the biz of authenticating the sciptures..And at 3340 we could see it as the messenger's duty is simply to deliver,even to an entirely different people if we take muhammad as a human entity. I always see 3340 as being part of the "Alright then,here is the arabic quran!!"
An Arabic complation (20113) It seems to me like the whole previous sciptures had been translated into that language. I also hear how certain *foreign words have remained in the arabic quran...(wow this is going in another direction)....So a prophet is given a scipture, messenger auhenticates that scipture & thats how I see it (translations too maybe-human messengers just like you and I were/are not perfect, see*)...messenger prophet dudes, they are both.
Hope we can discuss this further...I study and share and make a decision based on the understanding I have gained thus far.......
May God guide us...really....
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I always see 3340 as being part of the "Alright then,here is the arabic quran!!"
An Arabic complation (20113) It seems to me like the whole previous sciptures had been translated into that language. I also hear how certain *foreign words have remained in the arabic quran...(wow this is going in another direction)....It is in the right direction...
46 30 They said O our people! we have listened to Quran revealed after Musa verifying that which is before it, guiding to the truth and to a right path.10 37 And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds.
handshake
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salaam
And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds. BTW, perhaps you may want to consider that 'muhammad khataman nabiy' could mean 'muhammad is the 'ring' of prophets.'
perhaps you can likene it like the ring for your set of keys in the pocket right now. so, 'muhammad' is the holding 'ring'. this is merely an example, a metaphor or 'mithal' if you like.
could 'muhammad' the 'ring' be perhaps the 'rasool' in each and everyone of us? could 'muhammad' in the qur'an be that 'spirit'?
Joe Betik
The 'ring' of Prophets is the proper understanding; and how about considering The Muhammad as the ring to all the prophets. He stood testimony as a vouch-safe seal to all their Books, the compilation of which is Quran.
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salaam drfazl,
your second part of the first sentence is 'a little bit of a surprise' when read together with the first part.
and your second sentence is a 'bigger bit of a surprise' when read together with the first sentence.
(if you are suggesting that prophet muhammad was the ring of all prophets, then it is not what i have mentioned.)
Joe Betik
The 'ring' of Prophets is the proper understanding; and how about considering The Muhammad as the ring to all the prophets. He stood testimony as a vouch-safe seal to all their Books, the compilation of which is Quran.
if you were to read my earlier post again, you may notice that i was suggesting the possibility of 'muhammad' being 'the spirit of God' in each and everyone of us. this particular 'muhammad' is the 'rasool' in each and everyone of us right now, like in every 'nabiyyeen'. and some of the 'nabiyyeen', when the 'rasool' is fully active within themselves, were referred to in the Qur'an as 'rusool'.
as the 'messenger' within each and everyone of us, 'muhammad' is the one to guide every man (at any time, in any language, and in any place or part of this earth) pertaining to the 'siraat al-mustaqeem' or the 'honourable path' to God. this particular 'muhammad' will insha-Allah guide us, when we ask for God's true guidance. by now perhaps you could figure out how God preserves the message (al-kitab) as clearly indicated in the Qur'an, for He has already planted in man His 'spirit'.
for muhammad the 'nabiy', 'the spirit of God' or 'muhammad' within himself was his 'rasool'.
please consider without haste nor hurry. and my apology if i had misunderstood your post.
peace
mohammed noh
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salaam drfazl,
(if you are suggesting that prophet muhammad was the ring of all prophets, then it is not what i have mentioned.)I understand.
if you were to read my earlier post again, you may notice that i was suggesting the possibility of 'muhammad' being 'the spirit of God' in each and everyone of us. this particular 'muhammad' is the 'rasool' in each and everyone of us right now, like in every 'nabiyyeen'. and some of the 'nabiyyeen', when the 'rasool' is fully active within themselves, were referred to in the Qur'an as 'rusool'.
That is a very sensible construction. I view 'the muhammad' as a rasul from the malayika, from whom too Allah chooses rasuls for mankind. Gibreel and Mikahil are the two rasuls who give us the guidance from the Book by His Leave. They breathe the spirit of righteousness. This is the Ruh of Allah that distinguishes good from bad; all rasuls' business in this world is the same distinguishing! reminding of the criterion! bringing to life the FURQAN, the essence of our RUH, and the explanation of Quran therefrom. This RUH, the Furqan will testify the QURAN before it as the Book having no contradictions. Every one's heart possesses this Furqan as His Ruh. When we approach the Book to scrutinize, it is this Furqan that unfolds the revelation of its every verse. And the Ruh speaks clearly with no uncertain terms and free from contradictions. Follow the criterion, the Furqan, as it reveals the Quran as you read its verses through.
as the 'messenger' within each and everyone of us, 'muhammad' is the one to guide every man (at any time, in any language, and in any place or part of this earth) pertaining to the 'siraat al-mustaqeem' or the 'honourable path' to God. this particular 'muhammad' will insha-Allah guide us, when we ask for God's true guidance. by now perhaps you could figure out how God preserves the message (al-kitab) as clearly indicated in the Qur'an, for He has already planted in man His 'spirit'.
I understand, but The way of my understanding may be from a different angle as above.
or muhammad the 'nabiy', 'the spirit of God' or 'muhammad' within himself was his 'rasool'.
please consider without haste nor hurry. and my apology if i had misunderstood your post.No problems at all. Willing to receive more of such sensibilities.
Salaams to you, Joe Betik.
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salaam drfazl,
thank you for the clarifications.
my posts were suggesting the possibility of 'muhammad' the 'rasool' of God or 'muhammadur rasoolullah' being the 'spirit (ruh) of God.' and that 'muhammad the rasool' is in each and everyone of us, as it has been in everyone before us. and this 'rasool' is the one that matters to us right now , without the need to differentiate nor classify the other 'rusool' (the 'rasool' in others, 'nabiyyun' included.)
so, while we read the Qur'an, we must get clarifications from this 'rasool' of ours on whether we have gotten the truth according to God, or otherwise. and when counsel or guidance is received, we must follow or adhere the guidance, and when the time comes, tell the people about it, without fear nor favour from the people. the fear is only towards God. this is what we comprehend when it is said, "ati/ullah waati/ur rasool.'
needless to say that 'rasool' in arabic is 'messenger' in the most general of terms. a mosquito or a house fly can be a 'messenger' as it tells us that the environ needs some tidying up. and in the Qur'an there have been events when the 'malaikah' were sent as 'messengers'. in this respect, you are right. in fact, 'rasool' in the most general of terms may perhaps be in the form of a man, a woman, a plant, a star, etc., as long as they act the act of a 'rasool'. this is however beyond the regular man's perception, so we shall not dwell on this any further. those in the know shall know them like they know their children, indeed.
may God guide us all. insha-Allah.
peace
mohammed noh
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Peace,
Am I misunderstanding you, or are you concluding that "Muhammad" wasn't an actual person; he was actually a type of human trait, present in all the believers? o Pardon me if I'm wrong in my misunderstanding of your ideology... Either way, that conclusion is not very logical. The scriptures clearly point out that the Qur'an was sent down to a man named "Muhammad", and then it was delivered from him to the people. The comparison is the way the Statute Book was sent down to Moses and Aaron, and then it was relayed to the people. We're not all "prophets", and if Moses and Aaron were individual persons, then so was Muhammad...
On the topic of distinguishing a prophet/"nabi" versus a messenger/"rasuul", the Qur'an consistently speaks of prophets delivering scriptures to the people, while a messenger only confirms the presently-existing scripture... Now, since every scripture is, in a sense, a confirmation of the previous one, then every prophet is also a messenger. However, since only prophets (not messengers) receive new scriptures, then every messenger is not necessarily a prophet. So, on the issue of 'which was Muhammad', he was BOTH a prophet and a messenger...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace,
Muhammad', he was BOTH a prophet and a messenger...
Peace,
AhmadBrother Ahmad Bilal,
Is there a verse that does not contradict the verse 3 144? Muhammad is no more than a messenger many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will you then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah will swiftly reward those who has gratitude.
And what is the role of Gibraeel and Mikhail with reference to us and with reference to Muhammad? What is the status and job of our Ruh that Allah breathed into us? We cannot be enemies to Gibraeel in this world.
Regards.
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salaam ahmad bilal,
my posts in this thread were primarily about 'muhammadur rasoolullah' not 'muhammad the nabiy'.
'muhammad the nabiy' was a human being like abraham, moses and jacob.
if you care to re-read the posts carefully (or other posts regarding this issue), you could perhaps grasp the difference between 'muhammadur rasulullah' and 'muhammad the nabiy', and perhaps understand when some 'anbiya' were also refered to in the Qur'an as 'rusool'. i hope there is no need for me to repeat the clarifications.
if you want to be definite about our comprehension regarding 'muhammad'
• 'muhammad' can be the name of a human being.
• 'muhammad' can be the name of the 'nabiy' who left us with the Qur'an, but that 'nabiy' can even be named 'ahmad' (read 616, and hans wehr defined 'ahmad' as 'more commendable, more laudable'. 'ismuhu' in that verse can mean 'his status' or 'his name'.)
• 'muhammad' the 'nabiy' can also be a 'rasool'. (please read our posts here and elsewhere).
• 'muhammad' in hans wehr's dictionary is defined as 'praised; commendable, laudable'. lane put it as ?the much, or repeatedly, praised; or the endowed with many praiseworthy qualities.? thus in our comprehension, it can be a human being, a 'ruh', or anything that has the attributes.
• when we wrote about 'muhammad khatamman nabiy' ('muhammad' is the 'ring' of 'nabiy', we were refering to 'muhammadur rasulullah' not 'muhammad' the 'nabiy'.
if you want to be definite about our comprehension regarding 'rasool'
• 'rasool' in arabic means 'messenger; emissary; envoy, delegate, apostle (Chr.)'.
• a human being can be a 'rasool', so too is the 'ruh' of God (ruhullah), a 'malaikat', a mosquito, a house fly, a bird, a tree, etc., and each and everyone of them deliver 'good news and warnings'.
hopefully the above clarifies your inquiry. perhaps the difficulty in understanding this is due to the word 'muhammad', which can be a name, and an attribute.
but please, just consider this as another 'call' to consider or ponder.
please don't be in a hurry to be definite about things, everything. don't even think about it, because if you allow the mind to think at will, it will take you to travel on a multitude of trains of thoughts which will give you nothing but headaches. just ask God for the clarifications, and empty the mind. give yourself ten nights of not thinking about what we have written but ask God for correct guidance. insha-Allah you will gain an understanding beyond expectations. in fact, it can even be much more than what we have written in our posts. the correct way to learn with God as the Teacher is to acknowledge, appoint and revere God as the Teacher.
may God guide us all. insha-Allah.
peace
mohammed noh
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Salaam Joe Betik,
my posts in this thread were primarily about 'muhammadur rasoolullah' not 'muhammad the nabiy'.
hmm This is a very interesting concept, and I've never considered the situation in this way... You don't think would conflict with 3340? That passage literally says
Muhammad was not the father to any from your men, but the messenger of Allah and the last of the prophets. And Allah was with everything knowledgeable. (3340)
On the concept of Muhammad being the 'ring' of the prophets, that's not compatible with the scripture. It says "khaatam alnabiyeen", which literally means the end or conclusion of the prophets. What's your take on this?
Peace,
Ahmad
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salaam ahmad bilal
i have asked you to consider to ponder for 10 nights, but it took you barely a day to come back with questions.
i have asked you to consider re-reading my posts carefully, yet you asked a question that has been explained in earlier posts.
since you did not even want to consider, i rest my case, and leave you with God.
may God guide us all. insha-Allah.
peace.
mohammed noh
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All prophets are messengers but not all messengers are prophets. Let's take mary for example, she was a messenger but not a prophet peace
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Mohamad contradicted the bible. Concidering an angel appeard to him did people not know satan comes as an angel of light? even the bible says that. this is why you have to test the spirit. and God's Word says "If any spirt preaches anything different from what we have preached let them be accursed" also you cannot add or take anything away from what has been written and people have been trying to do that for a long time. 600 years after God spoke His Word thorugh His Son Jesus the koran was written, so it really contradicts each other. any spriit that says Jesus Christ did not come in the Flesh is not of God. so who am I going to believe? God's Word that was written over 100s of years thorugh Holy Spirited Apostiles and Prophets like Elijah, Issiah etc with the annointing of God or a book written 600 years after with a person who could not read or write, and went around killing others? Me I chose life. Chose Jesus you choise life, Reject Jesus you chose death and hades. Jesus was sinnless and performed many miracles and Jesus said that He could not do anything without the Father. Jesus made it clear that if you reject Him you reject the One who sent Him. no demons from hell would admit that Jesus is the Son of God unless they are cast out and I know of people demons were cast out and they came out screaming Jesus is coming back soon and He is going to lock us up into hell. Even a demon possessed man who wa possessed Jesus casted out demons but the demons saw Jesus and said "what do you want with us Son of the Most High God" so even demons know Jesus is the Son of God. but also satan is the father of lies and can deceive people into believing that Jesus is not the Son of God so they can end up in hell along with all the unbelievers they have deceived. satan is doing a good job at keeping people away from the truth. Jesus said "I AM the Way, Truth and the Light and no man comes to the Father but by Me" Hallelujah. Jesus taught love, forgivness to love your enemies, and He also prophcied His own death and reserection. You either believe what Jesus said fully or you do not believe Him at all, no middle ground. I am not going to believe a book that was written 600 years after God said not to add or take. Mohamad did not even test the spirit that came to him. and yet took him to a cave? God's angles are open in what they are going to do in public they do not take anyone to a cave. demons do that and do discusge themselfs as an angel of light. but they are soon going to be going to the lake of fire and I cannot wait for that. Take care all. welcome
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Rajah,
Muhammad means the 'Praise worthy and reliable person' earned by the chosen one by God (all glory be to Him) whom He had guided in righteousness. It is not the name christened by the parents. Ahmad, Muhammad all are the same; it is the name earned from the people by the God chosen ones that lived among them for quite a time. Such Muhammads Allah shall choose from among the nations and communities and in all linguistic populations to teach and explain the Book and to imbibe them with the wisdom. Even today there may be 100s of such chosen muhammads around the world explaining the Book and giving them the wisdom and insight in each linguistic community. When the muhammads are belied, or die, or killed, or driven to a different nation then comes the calamity such as earthquake, floods, tsunami etc. This has been the sunnah of Allah and you will not see a change in the nature of events that destroy nations.
So wherever there are natural calamities, it is understood that a muhammad was belied there. In Turkey, in Pakistan, in Gujarat and in so many places we see Allah's Sunnah repeating itself without a mistake.
.You mean Drfazl, there is potential for a common man to raise the level of Mohammed by the Guidance of GOD.
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Khatam means seal, not necesarily "last". My understanding of khatam an-nabiyin, which makes sense to me, is that ANYTHING that purports to be a revelation must pass the test of its congruity with the qur'an. If it does, the rophethood of the transmitter to the people may be confirmed, it is the seal of prophecy, if not, it is not prophecy. The khatam I can understand it also in the sense that after the transmitter of the Qur'an, all people have the elements to live without the need of a new prophet. Everything is there. In that sense what we would have would rusul, and indeed in a wide sense everybody and everything are rusul. We are rusul to other people, and other people are rusul to us if we get from them something for our spiritual enlightment and transformation. chioldren, sons and daughters are in fact very efficient envoys, if they don't change you very few things will. They may not be conscious of it, but in order to recognize al rusul, all we have to do is to be conscious that we need them, that we use them, that we cannot do without them.
I am not sure whether this ties with something of the previous posters posts. I think it does, but I am not sure that I have understood everything well.
Salaam
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Khatam means seal, not necesarily "last". My understanding of khatam an-nabiyin, which makes sense to me, is that ANYTHING that purports to be a revelation must pass the test of its congruity with the qur'an. If it does, the rophethood of the transmitter to the people may be confirmed, it is the seal of prophecy, if not, it is not prophecy. The khatam I can understand it also in the sense that after the transmitter of the Qur'an, all people have the elements to live without the need of a new prophet. Everything is there. In that sense what we would have would rusul, and indeed in a wide sense everybody and everything are rusul. We are rusul to other people, and other people are rusul to us if we get from them something for our spiritual enlightment and transformation. chioldren, sons and daughters are in fact very efficient envoys, if they don't change you very few things will. They may not be conscious of it, but in order to recognize al rusul, all we have to do is to be conscious that we need them, that we use them, that we cannot do without them.
I am not sure whether this ties with something of the previous posters posts. I think it does, but I am not sure that I have understood everything well.
Salaam
So there is still time to submit my resume? How many reference letters do I need to include?