The Myth that Women have to "Obey" their Husbands
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Dear sister farida.
I don't think Fari is derogatory, out here names like Farida , Farhat , Farhana etc are shortened affectionately to Fari, and you know it very well , and i am quite sure that most of your dear and close ones must be addressing you such, exactly as my name Sikandar is shortened to siki and that's perfectly OK.
But Rajah!
Remember,
You cant take any such liberties , when you are daggers drawn with anyone, specially a woman , and particularly with an intelligent one.
siki
To the above, please refer to quran 4911.
Why is your name "Sikandar"? PM any reply regarding your name.
Salaam.
Well Siki,
as a young women,I am very happy to find these strong voices of females,here.Learned females,that answer,with knowledge and respect.I have a lot to learn.
Did you see the grand mufti,of Saudia,saying 15 of january,in an lecture,that to marry girls from they are ten,is good,and proper,and that a good upbringing,will make a girl capable,to carry out her duties as a wife!
A wife tried trough court,to file for divorce,on her ten year old daughter,that the father married away to a man 50 year old.The court said of course that a wife have no right,not a mother either,and that the girl,could herself filed for divorce,when she reached puberty!
In muslim countries,this is what you called obedience Siki.
A menarchecal female marrying a post andropausal male is a good thing. Good genes from the old male go to the female for reproduction. But also, that young woman will learn about such things as sexual matters better from her old experienced husband than from her mother. This would also make sense in regards to the verses that state marry women if you fear for orphans, as in the old husbands that die and leave young women behind.
As for that court case, is that the one where the father asked the groom for more money?
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A menarchecal female marrying a post andropausal male is a good thing. Good genes from the old male go to the female for reproduction. But also, that young woman will learn about such things as sexual matters better from her old experienced husband than from her mother. This would also make sense in regards to the verses that state marry women if you fear for orphans, as in the old husbands that die and leave young women behind.
As for that court case, is that the one where the father asked the groom for more money?
i hope this is second degree, but i'm afraid its not - this sounds like a parallel world
so the first marriage of a woman would be to learn sex from an old experienced man so that when her old husband dies a fairytale second husband could come and profit of the teachings...i'm guess the second guy would also prefer to "teach"... -
A menarchecal female marrying a post andropausal male is a good thing. Good genes from the old male go to the female for reproduction. But also, that young woman will learn about such things as sexual matters better from her old experienced husband than from her mother. This would also make sense in regards to the verses that state marry women if you fear for orphans, as in the old husbands that die and leave young women behind.
As for that court case, is that the one where the father asked the groom for more money?
Far,that statement,makes it so clear that you are a man.A ten year old girl,marry an old man,to learn about sex,for her next husband?What kind of understanding is this?
Good genes from the old man?Today girls die in childbirth,because they are too young to carry a child,and give birth.Their bodys is not ready yet.Because of a diet high on fet,girls today get their period early,many from 10-11 year,it does not mean that they are ready for pregnancy.It only means that the body has reached the magic 22% fat level on the body.
Is it from the Quran,to marry your daughters away,children,that did not yet reach maturity?
It is not from the case,where the father,wanted more money,no.
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Good genes from the old man? Genes deteriorate in males very fast. Genes from old men are not precisely that good. The whole thing is sick. But on the other hand, the old man just, being the only adult will probably be indeed the head of the family at least till he becomes senile and the girl comes of age.
Salaam
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The above is from UN (eugenics) propaganda.
We are mammals. Look at the chimpanzees and elephants females who choose the older males. If such a plan to ban such relationships with mammals ever occured, may the god forbid such synthetic methods, well I'm just glad they aren't forced into such eugenicist desires.
Oh and if something is against your beliefs, do you call it manism? Do I reply and label you as anti-manism or just anti-human?
The opposite you did not consider, would be older women who hire men would marry the best one (who'd be young himself) rather than fornicating with him.
Even today's women die in child birth, or are not even able to give children because they're too old. Why do young women die in child birth? (A girl can in no way be pregnant) Because they do not receive any medical attention. Why? Because the countries they live in, the authorities believe in population reduction, and their minimum age of consent is 16, 18 or even in the 20s.
Ask yourself about pre-teen and teenage mothers in America.
http//www.amazon.co.uk/Pre-Teen-Teenage-Pregnancy-Twenty-first-Century/dp/1905539118
http//books.google.co.uk/books?id=XIzo5uo3XIQC&pg=PT594&lpg=PT594&dq=pregnancies+rates+10+year+females&source=web&ots=_YXU6nwdPO&sig=bgBCfy5gyWqpLNLbvuG6J7IB0vI&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result#PPT594,M1
The young woman is the most dangerous threat to the eugenicist.
Please tell us what you consider to be a woman.
I consider a woman, a female that has an active womb able to give birth.
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Salaam.
Yes Far,we are mammals,but in which way can you compare elephants that choose old males,with that of a ten year old girl married to an old man?Did she choose him herself?
Young girls can get pregnant at once they have their period,and if they get pregnant,as nine,ten,ellewen,their birthcanal is not ready yet.They suffer from fistula,and death,across the world.
Do you consider a girl,at the age of ten or ellewen,as a woman Far,because she has got her menstrauation?Does she have an active womb?
Education and age,for women,is the two factors in this world,that enhance her parenthood.When you educate woman on contraseption,health issues,nutrition,and so on,so on,the chances for their children to grow up,is much higher.
It is nobodys right to marry your child daughters away,they have to be baligh,and have an understanding of their situation.And the right to say no!
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Young girls can get pregnant at once they have their period,and if they get pregnant,as nine,ten,ellewen,their birthcanal is not ready yet.They suffer from fistula,and death,across the world.
And this is the age when Nikah is NOT permissible, if some one believes in Quran.
Menstruation is the line when a girl-child leaves childhood and enters puberty
And when children amongst you enter adolescence
This is the time when boy and girl experiences wet-dream. Menstruation and ejaculation do not make a girl a woman and a boy a man.
This is NOT the age of Nikah.{Refer 406]
What is the point in time when boy and girl leave behind and enter the age of Nikah ? This is told
{Refer 6152; 1734}
explains everything.
And marriage is not merely a contract for making sex permissible; it is a comprehensive social contract between a man and woman and society/state is the third party; guardian and protector of the interests of both the contracting parties in accordance with the law, in case of dispute.
For what are those women made permissible?
That you people seek them/make efforts to engage them with your wealth.
But throughout history we know people seek women with their wealth for two purposes, for marriage and for merely enjoying sex. But Qur'an declares women as permissible for one purpose and negates the other purpose.
Seek women with your wealth like those people who seek for marriage/keeping them as pearl, opposite of those men who seek women with their wealth only to ?pour water?
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Peace,FAR...
The above is from UN (eugenics) propaganda.
We are mammals. Look at the chimpanzees and elephants females who choose the older males. If such a plan to ban such relationships with mammals ever occured, may the god forbid such synthetic methods, well I'm just glad they aren't forced into such eugenicist desires.
Good,when I look at chimpanzees myself I prefer the model of Bonobo chimpanzees ;D
They do not at all practice any kind of Eugenics.Bonobos have been portrayed as the ?Make love, not war? apes, characterized by female power sharing, a lack of aggression between either individuals or groups, richly elaborated sexual behavior that occurs without the constraint of a narrow window of fertility, and the use of sex for communicative purposes.http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo
Oh and if something is against your beliefs, do you call it manism? Do I reply and label you as anti-manism or just anti-human?
Can I take the liberty to reply this question? Eugenics is very anti-human..humans don
t marry to pass strongest genes and qualifications http//www.answers.com/eugenics...theyre of a complicated and diverse emotional drives and behavior..we dont marry to increase our sexual performance,marriage is a very tight bond of peace and mercy,between couples who share interest in each other,its a choice that pubertal couples take and bear..girls should not be forced into marriage"And do not force your daughters into marriage when they have desired independence, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. But if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful." 2433The opposite you did not consider, would be older women who hire men would marry the best one (who'd be young himself) rather than fornicating with him.
Well,if they are very interested in each other-the older woman and that young man-that they would commit fornication-or do you say that that woman would rape him,or fornicate with him against his will and choice?-it
s surely a mutual interest,aint it? well,it`s not like that in case an elderly man wants to marry a little girl,if her parents force her it would be definitely and literally "RAPE"...Even today's women die in child birth, or are not even able to give children because they're too old. Why do young women die in child birth? (A girl can in no way be pregnant) Because they do not receive any medical attention. Why? Because the countries they live in, the authorities believe in population reduction, and their minimum age of consent is 16, 18 or even in the 20s.
Children under four are more likely to die if they are born to single mothers and women under 20, according to national statistics.
http//news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/354103.stmAsk yourself about pre-teen and teenage mothers in America.
What makes it desirable anyway?
http//www.amazon.co.uk/Pre-Teen-Teenage-Pregnancy-Twenty-first-Century/dp/1905539118
"The State of the World's Children 2009" says that the younger a girl is when she becomes pregnant, the greater the health risks for her and her infant.
Worldwide, more than 60 million women who are currently aged 20-24 were married before they were 18, with the most child marriages being in South Asia and in Africa.
If a mother is under the age of 18, her infant's risk of dying in its first year of life is 60 percent greater than that of an infant born to a mother older than 19.
In addition, the report says adolescent wives are susceptible to violence, abuse and exploitation. Young brides are often forced to drop out of school, have few work opportunities and little chance to influence their own lives.
"If young girls are not in school, they are more vulnerable," South African Health Minister Barbara Hogan said at the launch. "It's not just a health issue; it is about the status of young women and girls."
http//www.nowpublic.com/health/unicef-report-reveals-shocking-teen-pregnancy-death-rate
For most girls, a regular menstrual cycle will begin between the ages of 11 and 16. During these formative years, bones are not mature, and over all growth is not yet finished. Becoming pregnant as during the teen years pose some serious health risks, not only to themselves, but to the unborn child.
The risks for the teen mom are great as well. Pregnancy and birth can put a tremendous strain on a teenager's body. If bone structure is not fully developed, she takes the risk of injuring her spine and pelvic bones, altering her life forever. It is also well known that the irresponsible behaviors some teens exhibit may put them at risk for sexually transmitted diseases. These diseases can be easily spread to an unborn baby. If untreated, disasterous consequences can occur.
Teen moms are more likely to have a baby that is premature and low birth weight. A premature baby is one that is born too early. Some of these babies do die. The ones that make it tend to have problems later in life, mental and physical problems are included. A low birth weight baby is one that is born with a weight of less than 5 1/2 pounds. These babies have a greater risk of being born with major birth defects.So,teen pregnancy is disastrous on all levels..even on the economic level..
Please tell us what you consider to be a woman.
I consider a woman not only a pubertal female who has reached a reasonable stage of growth of her brain, bones, muscle, skin, breasts, and reproductive organs but also an adolescent one who`s mature mentally, psychologically and also socially enough to be independent from the parents or legal guardians,able to make her own choices..
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Several things, I think there is no study saying that older men's genes are better. What I know is that it is the very opposite. So please make a more detailed quotation and give a detailed source. In fact from what I know women's genes keep better than men's.
Concerning elephants, well thanks for the joke. I wish menfolk all the luck in the world next time they court a female elephant of whatever age. And try to pick one that is ready to obey her husband just to make sure you are not mislead by their meek looks.
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An adoloscent girl is NOT a woman. Marriage is not permissible before
Hardened maturity?
In humans, the process of bone hardening, or ossification, is completed at about the age of 25. The last bone to ossify is the breastbone.
Peace,Mazhar... thank you for the reminder,I`ve looked it up "The diaphysis and both epiphyses of a long bone are separated by a growing zone of cartilage (the epiphyseal plate). When the child reaches skeletal maturity (18 to 25 years of age), all of the cartilage is replaced by bone, fusing the diaphysis and both epiphyses together (epiphyseal closure)."http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone#Formation
But it says from 18 to 25,and that is the closest to what I meant by "independence from the parents and ability to make life choices..
peace -
"And do not force your daughters into marriage when they have desired independence, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. But if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful." 2433
The above translation is completely wrong, where did you get it from? or have you modified it yourself?
siki
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Peace
what about this verse?? 4615
In humans, the process of bone hardening, or ossification, is completed at about the age of 25. The last bone to ossify is the breastbone.
What is the relation between age of marriage and bone maturity? why u linked them to each other?
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Peace
what about this verse?? 4615
What is the relation between age of marriage and bone maturity? why u linked them to each other?
Because bone hardening,is essensial,for the calsium contain in the bones.Teen pregnancy,result in very low levels of calsium in the bone structure,and can give them osteoporosis.
http//news.bio-medicine.org/biology-news-2/Teenage-pregnancy-may-put-girls-at-risk-for-osteoporosis-2877-1/
And girls that get pregnant too early,the birthcanal passage,is to little,for a child to get throug.In countries with poor healt,this girls die in childbirth.
The risk of dying for a girl in pregnancy,increase very much,as younger she is. -
What is the relation between age of marriage and bone maturity? why u linked them to each other?
I merely gave supporting/additional information otherwise the age of Nikah has been given as "hardened youth"
{Refer 406]
{Refer 6152; 1734}
refers to intensity, strength, hardness. And intensity or hardness can be taken when man reaches its peak of completion and that is completion of the bones after which there begins degenerating/aging process of bones, decline of strenth. Bones are formed first and flesh is wrapped over it. So can have a link/reference to bone formation.
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The above translation is completely wrong, where did you get it from? or have you modified it yourself?
siki
Could you please watch your language?Can
t you speak without being offensive? why would I alter Gods words >?its free-mindstranslation-which I`m convinced with
http//free-minds.org/quran/PM/24 verse(33)
Out of an understanding that?? And do not coerce your immature/(family protected) women on the unlawful/non-consenting seeking (of non-consentual marriage), if they wanted self-protection (from arranged marriage), to seek the low life's vanities, and whomever coerces them, then God after they have been coerced is forgiving, merciful.? (2433)Traditionally, the word ?BaGhA?a? has been interpreted to mean prostitution. However, the word?s literal meaning is to seek beyond what is lawful/consentual. Also, as opposed to prostitution which is a gross sin, there are some examples of women who later became happy with men that they were coerced into marrying, hence God?s forgiving statement at the end of the verse. "
http//free-minds.org/malakIf we approve that the word "Bagha
a" means prostitution,it would be as if God is stating that he later forgives the parents who coerce their daughters into prostitution!! or forgives the girls who have been forced into this practice.. My understanding is that God doesnt approve or state sins in any way...and the context of the verse and the whole issue of "ma malakat aymanukum" if put together doesn`t have anything to do with prostitution...Peace,
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Peace,Hope,how are you? sun
Peace
what about this verse?? 4615
What is the relation between age of marriage and bone maturity? why u linked them to each other?
In addition to what Mareleya said,and support of what Mazhar skillfully analyzed the best age of marriage is after bone maturity because Pregnancy and birth can put a tremendous strain on a teenager's body. If bone structure is not fully developed, she takes the risk of injuring her spine and pelvic bones, altering her life forever..
And that age would be best 25 years old "When the child reaches skeletal maturity (18 to 25 years of age), all of the cartilage is replaced by bone"
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone#FormationPeace to you all,
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Could you please watch your language?Can
t you speak without being offensive? why would I alter Gods words >?its free-mindstranslation-which I`m convinced with
http//free-minds.org/quran/PM/24 verse(33)
Out of an understanding that?? And do not coerce your immature/(family protected) women on the unlawful/non-consenting seeking (of non-consentual marriage), if they wanted self-protection (from arranged marriage), to seek the low life's vanities, and whomever coerces them, then God after they have been coerced is forgiving, merciful.? (2433)Traditionally, the word ?BaGhA?a? has been interpreted to mean prostitution. However, the word?s literal meaning is to seek beyond what is lawful/consentual. Also, as opposed to prostitution which is a gross sin, there are some examples of women who later became happy with men that they were coerced into marrying, hence God?s forgiving statement at the end of the verse. "
http//free-minds.org/malakIf we approve that the word "Bagha
a" means prostitution,it would be as if God is stating that he later forgives the parents who coerce their daughters into prostitution!! or forgives the girls who have been forced into this practice.. My understanding is that God doesnt approve or state sins in any way...and the context of the verse and the whole issue of "ma malakat aymanukum" if put together doesn`t have anything to do with prostitution...Peace,
sa,adah,
salam
I agree my sentence was inadvertently worded offensive,I am sorry.
As for the translation of 24-33, free minds translation is totally wrong, I just happened to dig through this aya due to a discussion with Ayman, let me clarify it for you by copying one of my previous posts down below,
I am sure , you are quite capable of comprehending the following explanation.
"Bagha", in general means wrong and i am in agreement with you on this. But the meanings become "specific" in relation to the subject of a sentense.
You could have been right if this sentense had finished at,---- "And do not compel your Young females to commit wrong.......... it would have opened its application in "general "to all aspects of "wrongs" in life.
But Brother! what follows after this sentense is, ----"If they are desirous of being chaste" this particular phrase , puts precision back into the first sentense, of "wrong" and locks the meanings of Bagha in specific to sexuality.
what all can be committed wrong in sexual terms of a young female? Fornication , may be , but then we have to further modify it , because a certain sentense has been inserted here, AARZUL--HAYATUL--DUNIYA, (SEEKING THE MATERIAL GAINS OF THIS WORLD )
Meaning, " you are forcing her to commit a wrong, which is in sexual context, (fornication) to gain the materials in this world",
what else can we call the above ? other than " Prostitution"
peace
siki
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While it may appear that these recent posts have strayed from the original question regarding "The Myth that Women have to "Obey" their Husbands, this is in fact not the case. It is hard work to form a marriage of equal partnership. This hard work is made easier through dedication to Allah and mutual love between spouses. Forming an equal partnership requires that both parties are similarly educated and of similar maturity levels. If one partner is less educated (as is the case in many parts of the Muslim world for females), can the less-educated spouse be a true partner? Can an equal partnership be formed between a 10-year old and a 50-year old (regardless of gender)? Can an equal partnership be formed when one spouse must obey the other? I find that I grow as a person when my husband and I work through our disagreements. He is a very rational man and we both have learned to discuss our points of view rationally even if we were emotional at the beginning. It is apparent that men who desire obedience prefer not to be challenged and prefer to have the card deck stacked in their favor with a younger, less-educated spouse and we have patriarchal, male-dominated cultures that ensure a ready supply of these types of girls.
Men were given responsibility to protect and care for their wives considering that a man's wife would bear his children. Raising a child is an awesome responsibility and anyone who has cared for an infant knows that at this time a mother (especially a breastfeeding mother) is vulnerable and needs all of the care and attention that she can get. Her husband has been given this responsibility in the Qur'an (not her mother or sisters or friends; although these women are certainly not precluded from helping).
On the issue of sexual attractiveness, both young men and young women are sexually more attractive; but no one is more attractive to me than the man I love, my husband who I have chosen to spend the rest of my life with -- my life partner.
On the issue of sexual education my husband lived the Islamic ideal and was a virgin when we married. Was he supposed to 'educate' himself before marriage so that he could be a proper husband in the bedroom? Isn't this a non-Islamic concept? When the older man in previous posts marries the 10-year old to 'educate' her where did he get his education? --from his first wife/wives? Obviously, we are all virgins at some point. Aren't we supposed to learn from each other when we marry? Doesn't the Qur'an and the sunnah of Prophet Mohamed tell us that divorce is discouraged even though allowed? Doesn't the Qur'an and the sunnah of Prophet Mohamed tell us that polygamy is acceptable only when there is an imbalance of females to males due to war? Does the Qur'an ever encourage marriage or polygamy as a method of slaking lust?
On the issue of other primates, elephants et cetera does the Qur'an ever ask us to model ourselves after the animal kingdom? Certain things can be learned from the animal kingdom and we can even learn some things about human behavior from animals, but we were created differently from the animal kingdom. We have intelligence to understand the consequences of our actions even if we choose to ignore this. We have been given the gifts of intelligence, free will and an immortal soul; these gifts were not bestowed upon members of the animal kingdom.
If a woman's salvation is her own and not her husband's nor her father's, then it is up to her to make one of the most important decisions of her life for herself she must choose her own husband without coercion. This is explicitly stated in the Qur'an. The Imam's and Saudi leaders who go against this are going against the Qur'an -- Allah's words to us -- and they will be accountable to Allah for their actions and the suffering and misery resulting from their actions. -
Out of an understanding that?? And do not coerce your immature/(family protected) women on the unlawful/non-consenting seeking (of non-consentual marriage), if they wanted self-protection (from arranged marriage), to seek the low life's vanities, and whomever coerces them, then God after they have been coerced is forgiving, merciful.? (2433)
Traditionally, the word ?BaGhA?a? has been interpreted to mean prostitution. However, the word?s literal meaning is to seek beyond what is lawful/consentual. Also, as opposed to prostitution which is a gross sin, there are some examples of women who later became happy with men that they were coerced into marrying, hence God?s forgiving statement at the end of the verse. "
http//free-minds.org/malakIf we approve that the word "Bagha
a" means prostitution,it would be as if God is stating that he later forgives the parents who coerce their daughters into prostitution!! or forgives the girls who have been forced into this practice.. My understanding is that God doesnt approve or state sins in any way...and the context of the verse and the whole issue of "ma malakat aymanukum" if put together doesn`t have anything to do with prostitution...Peace,
My best translation of the Qur'an on this is by M. Asad
And if any of those whom you rightfully possess desire a deed of freedom, write it out for them if you are aware of any good in them and give them of the wealth of God which He has given you.
And do not, in order to gain some of the fleeting pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your maidens into whoredom if they happen to be desirous of marriage; and if anyone should coerce them, then, verily, after they have been compelled , God will be much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace! 2433According to my translations of the Qur'an "Bagha'a" means concubinage (non-lawful marriage) or whoredom (forced sex for money/favors) and the girl/woman referred to is the property of another as a slave not a daughter. The immediately preceding statement of 2433 has been omitted from the prior post and refers to slaves directly. The word for girl or maiden "fatayat" means slave-girl by context. It seems obvious to me that it is the girl/woman who is the receiver of God's mercy and forgiveness since she is forced into this situation. The Qur'an is certainly describing a situation where the girl/woman is entering into non-lawful marriage or union against her own free will. Wherever men (or women) impose their wrongful will over the weak they will surely have to answer to God on Judgment Day. It is NOT obvious to me that the Qur'an is referring to the coercer; it is obvious (especially in light of the entirety of the Qur'an) that the passage refers to mercy for the coerced.