Magic??
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2102
I had my eye on Submission for a long, long time. As I went into it, it seemed that everything was so logical and almost all nonsense was far removed from the Qur'an. I had never noticed this verse before though.
It speaks about devils and angels teaching magic to men under Solomon's rule, both with different motives. But...magic? Are you serious? Does anyone have an explanation for this? And please don't tell me "if God says it, it must be true", because the only reason I pointed this out is because this seemingly illogical verse creates a huge shadow of doubt in my mind.Thanks.
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Which verse are you refering to, and can you please post the full verse and your understand of it or perhaps a translation of it?
Also could we have a study of the word - assihra?
Here's the definition from Lane's lexi of the root of Seen-Ha-Ra which assihra comes from
To turn it/him from his course, way, or manner of being. The turning of a thing from its proper manner of being to another.
Lane says that "He (an enchanter) apparently turned the thing from its proper manner of being, making what was false to appear in the form of the true, or real; causing the thing to be imagined different from what it really was."
To deceive, delude, beguile, or outwit. The producing what is false in the form of truth. Embellishment by falsification and deceit. A kind of enchantment, or fascination which captivates the eye and the like. Skillful eloquence . Early in the morning, or the first part of day (the time of), a little before daybreak, or the false dawn. Whiteness overspreading blackness. Food marred or spoilt. Having little milk, or large in her udder but having little milk. To guild, fascinate, bewitch, wheedle, turn anyone from, enchant, practice sorcery, hoax, deprive of understanding.Anything illogical in that?
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Which verse are you refering to, and can you please post the full verse and your understand of it or perhaps a translation of it?
Also could we have a study of the word - assihra?
Here's the definition from Lane's lexi of the root of Seen-Ha-Ra which assihra comes from
Anything illogical in that?
Uh...I gave you the link to the translation and my understanding of it. At the top...the "2102" is a link to 10-12 translations, including a literal one.
As for magic being a word to generally describe deception...it would make perfect sense if used anywhere else the word "magic" was mentioned in the Qur'an. However, as far as 2102 is concered, it wouldn't fit. Harut and Marut were teaching people to "what was false to appear in the form of the true" and warning them that this is but a test? The people used this knowledge to break up marriages? They were warned that these teachings of deception are tests? It doesn't make sense to me.I would appreciate it if someone could shed some light on this...
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Peace,
The first question is what is magic? In english it has a connotation of the manipulation of supernatural things/entities in order to bring about certain results. So that could be a formula of words to invoke some unscene entity or phenomenon or it could be certain rituals that act in a similar way. That is in essence sorcery which can be synomymous with Magic. Or it can be the Magic that we see on tv which is the art of delusion (and this can be used for more than just entertainment). Now the art/science of delusion's purpose is to make someone think that you are factually doing something that you are not doing. So which one were the angels teaching? The art/science of delusion is a reality and can be used for good or bad. The invoking of unscene things . . . well . . . science has seen how many people lie and distort things in order to get people to believe something that will benefit them. And this seems to be the majority of the cases with "sorcerers." But I do believe that it is possible that occasionally people do connect into other entities and phenomena that are beyond the material universe and part of the immaterial (some angels and other unseen beings or even possible aliens). And in this case I would not consider that thing to be fake magic or sorcery but real. Also the term sorcery and magic are usually connected with the ignorance and unfamiliarity of the audience. To someone who doesn't know about technology many technologies are also works of magic or sorcery. Another thing is that in modern times we use the word magic in a perjoritive way, like something that isn't real and almost always can't be explained, and hence isn't real.
This way of thinking is a little bothersome to me becuz it assumes that what can't be explained at any one moment (or sometines immaterial things that can be explained) should be ignored, denied or ridiculed. Instead of understanding that everything has an explanation even if we cannot fully grasp some of the concepts involved in that reality. That is why many people think God, or the angels are magic, and hence should be disregarded. Unfortunately these are people who have everything invested in the material world and if that thing cannot be materially studied it is not worth considering.
But this is a complicated issue becuz it has to do with human trains of thought and modern and pre-modern ideas. These words (sorcery and magic) are tied more to what people think than any real phenomenon.
My conclusion is if something brings about effects then there is a science behind it. Witty and impressive things that most people are ignorant of (especially if the knowledge is guarded by secrecy) would be considered sorcery and magic in any age. But there is always a science behind those things, even if it is a science of delusion. ANd a delusion is to be judged as evil or good based on what it is used for and how it is used.
As far as techniques that act like "codes" into the unseen realm that bring about affects in the seen realm. . . Well, I haven't come accross any sort of this tapping into reality that has been used in a way that allows me to believe that it is real. The only thing I do believe in is in the power of God and his forces (angels) to bring about material events. And that is becuz i believe that the necessary intelligence behind evolution and the order of all things is God, and the Quran informs me about that entity and what it is and is not, completing the picture for me that this is the god of Abraham (God bless him) and the ultimate god given the name God, Dios, Deus and Allahu, all of thse names deriving from the word 'a god' and communicating that this entity has the only real merit of being the god of humanity and the god of gods (i.e. the object of worship of everything that men make their gods besides him).
As it concerns spirits or other unseen beings besides angels. I think this is very possible but everything I see out there that refers to this is usually either inconsistent or used for entertainment purposes (I do have some particular explanations in case some of it is real). So that leaves me just believing in the possiblity. I believe that the human soul is real, the angels are real (they are material and spirit phenomenons that drive the universe and serve the purposes that God has given them). But as for other spirits or the use of spells or rituals to connect to an immaterial world of beings (that are not God and his angels) that can affect the material world . . . I haven't seen it in such a concrete way that would make me swear that this is reality. So I say it's possible (cuz anything is possible) but I have no knowledge of it. I take the same stance on aliens.
Until then I'll have to see those words in the Quran like sorcery, Jinn or devils in their meanings that are consistent with the reality of God, his angels and the material world. So sorcery can only mean the art/knowledge of delusion in the context of the Quran. Becuz knowledge is knowledge and can only be broken up into the knowledge of certain things. And I don't think the Quran would classify sorcery as "ilmul-ghaibi i.e knowledge of the unseen, which it mentions often without using the word for sorcery.Godbless,
Anwar -
Uh...I gave you the link to the translation and my understanding of it. At the top...the "2102" is a link to 10-12 translations, including a literal one.
As for magic being a word to generally describe deception...it would make perfect sense if used anywhere else the word "magic" was mentioned in the Qur'an. However, as far as 2102 is concered, it wouldn't fit. Harut and Marut were teaching people to "what was false to appear in the form of the true" and warning them that this is but a test? The people used this knowledge to break up marriages? They were warned that these teachings of deception are tests? It doesn't make sense to me.I would appreciate it if someone could shed some light on this...
I believe haroot and maroot were two good men not angels God called them angels for being righteous.
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Thanks for your replies everyone.
But I take it that almost everyone here is okay with the fact that the Qur'an speaks of "sorcery" and "magic"? I'm trying to see alternate ways to look at it, but nothing's coming to me...this kills it for me. I hope someone could come up with a plausible explanation.@afridi I agree everything that isn't disprovable is possible...but this doesn't make you look at the Qur'an in a different light? I was close to believing...but now, after looking at Submission for almost a year, I'm beginning to see major errors (or what seems like errors) in the 19 code, and within the Qur'an itself. It's frustrating, really -I thought I had actual proof of the Truth. -\
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Peace Fuhrer,
You'll see that every translator agrees to interpret "but they cannot harm anyone except by God's permission" from within the ayah. Thus, one cannot break-up a marriage with sorcery or magic.
You stated
It's frustrating, really -I thought I had actual proof of the Truth.
I don't know that such a thing is possible. But even if the code was on the money, 100% fool-proof and absolutely confirmed to be divine in nature - and everything that seemed illogical and /or mystical was stripped away by the "right" interpretation, what then?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace,
Well good luck Fuhrer. I'd like to know what is so illlogical about magic?
Godbless,
AnwarI'm sorry, my message to afridi was actually for you...got a bit hasty lol.
"Magic" isn't plausible (at least not in our universe). In this day and age, we have enough information to conclude that everything has a cause, or an explanation - even things that seem impossible or too amazing to be true can be broken down to the last atom. And the notion that humans can learn this "magic" and be condemned for it is illogical. The fact that the Qur'an states that two angels taught this "magic", told their students that it's a huge test and not to be used, and people who use it (or "purchase" it) are condemned doesn't leave room for more speculation on this "magic". It can't be anything scientific, considering the era where it was taught, and because it's stated that people used it to break up marriages. At least that's how I've intepreted it...I could be wrong though. -\ -
Uh...I gave you the link to the translation and my understanding of it. At the top...the "2102" is a link to 10-12 translations, including a literal one.
As for magic being a word to generally describe deception...it would make perfect sense if used anywhere else the word "magic" was mentioned in the Qur'an. However, as far as 2102 is concered, it wouldn't fit. Harut and Marut were teaching people to "what was false to appear in the form of the true" and warning them that this is but a test? The people used this knowledge to break up marriages? They were warned that these teachings of deception are tests? It doesn't make sense to me.I would appreciate it if someone could shed some light on this...
And the website you gave was absolutely rubbish. One doesn't refer to translations. If you can refer to the arabic definitions and meanings, then that's a whole something another.
Common knowledge of what evil magicians do, is that they use the help of jinn.
Seriously, what doesn't make sense? Magic is as assihra.
What is illogical, that you fail to understand how magic (existing in books and what not) works.
Please, one doesn't refer to the English, as modern English is full of orwellian concepts. Not only that but when most of these people were translating into English, they were using a not so modern English. And yes, English changes a lot over a short amount of time.
One example can be found in the meaning of "reading" compare that to the earlier part of 20th century to what it is now... totally different and not appropriate the translation of the arabic word "qul".
Please, refer to the arabic, especially as the book is in arabic. And note that translators, translate for ease of reading, not for deap study.
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Sadhus? more potent than Pak exorcists BJP
NEW DELHI The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) on Saturday dismissed claims by a Pakistani astrologer about his supernatural powers, which will destroy the Indian missile system.
Party spokesman Ravi Shankar Prasad told a press briefing that India was a land of ?sadhus? and ?tantriks?, whose supernatural powers were more potent and convincing than Pakistani exorcists.
As the war talk had reached a feverish pitch in the media, astrologers, tricksters and ?tantriks? also seemed to be adding to the tensions. Pakistani newspapers on Saturday reported that an internationally famed astrologer and palmist Fazal Karim had assured the Pakistan Army not to fear the Indian military as he had powers to jam India?s missile system.
The papers quoted Karim as saying India was consulting pundits and exorcists to decide an appropriate time for launching a war against Pakistan, adding Indian magicians had invoked blessings of Kali Devi by doing a penance at the Kali temple for the past 21 days to influence politicians and military generals through black magic. Karim said he had made all arrangements to protect Pakistan from the magic. Commenting on Karim?s claim, Prasad said, ?We have a history of producing ?tantriks? and their powers will surpass this Pakistani tantrik.?
rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl -
And the website you gave was absolutely rubbish. One doesn't refer to translations. If you can refer to the arabic definitions and meanings, then that's a whole something another.
Well, exuse me for not knowing Arabic. I hope you know even most Muslims don't know a word of Arabic, let alone the history of the language. The translations on that site are as close as I can get to the original Arabic (by comparing all of them, including the literal translation).
Common knowledge of what evil magicians do, is that they use the help of jinn.
Is it now? You realize the existance of jinns has not been proven - some religious/spiritual people may believe in jinns, but that doesn't mean they exist. There are dozens of religions that don't acknowledge the existence of such beings.
Also, what on earth is an "evil magician"? Last time I checked, there's no such thing as "magic" in this universe that's governed by laws. I understand that you may believe in it because you believe that the Qur'an is the literal word of God, but you have to see it through my, and other inquisitive people's, eyes.Seriously, what doesn't make sense? Magic is as assihra.
What is illogical, that you fail to understand how magic (existing in books and what not) works.
I don't know what "assihra" means. If what you wrote in your first post was the definition of "assihira", I've already explained why I have a problem with that explanation for this verse. And how does "magic" work? What books? The books outlining countless superstitious rituals and practices? You can't seriously believe superstitions...
"Magic", to my understanding, is something that cannot be explained...no matter how many tools you have, how many colleagues you have, or how many resources. If something can be explained, it doesn't qualify as "magic".Please, one doesn't refer to the English, as modern English is full of orwellian concepts. Not only that but when most of these people were translating into English, they were using a not so modern English. And yes, English changes a lot over a short amount of time.
One example can be found in the meaning of "reading" compare that to the earlier part of 20th century to what it is now... totally different and not appropriate the translation of the arabic word "qul".
Please, refer to the arabic, especially as the book is in arabic. And note that translators, translate for ease of reading, not for deap study.
That's why I posted the question on this forum. I don't know Arabic, so I thought I might've been missing something. Perhaps you can explain this verse to me in a no-nonsense way - keeping in mind my understanding of it.
NEW DELHI The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) on Saturday dismissed claims by a Pakistani astrologer about his supernatural powers, which will destroy the Indian missile system.
Party spokesman Ravi Shankar Prasad told a press briefing that India was a land of ?sadhus? and ?tantriks?, whose supernatural powers were more potent and convincing than Pakistani exorcists.
As the war talk had reached a feverish pitch in the media, astrologers, tricksters and ?tantriks? also seemed to be adding to the tensions. Pakistani newspapers on Saturday reported that an internationally famed astrologer and palmist Fazal Karim had assured the Pakistan Army not to fear the Indian military as he had powers to jam India?s missile system.
The papers quoted Karim as saying India was consulting pundits and exorcists to decide an appropriate time for launching a war against Pakistan, adding Indian magicians had invoked blessings of Kali Devi by doing a penance at the Kali temple for the past 21 days to influence politicians and military generals through black magic. Karim said he had made all arrangements to protect Pakistan from the magic. Commenting on Karim?s claim, Prasad said, ?We have a history of producing ?tantriks? and their powers will surpass this Pakistani tantrik.?
I'll look into it, but only to make sure. I don't claim to know everything, but I wouldn't trust any lunatic that claims to have advanced religious guidance that comes out of India (or anywhere, really - but India seems to be the breeding ground for foolish religious people who ignore science and logic or extreme charlatans). There are so many people who claim to be divine, or mystical, or magical in India, and literally MILLIONS who choose to follow them and worship their pictures. People like Sai Baba, Amma, etc. And those are just the most famous ones - there are hundreds of lesser guys out there too.
I'm Indian with a Hindu mother, who bows her head to a picture of that boy-lover Sai Baba once a day. These people are nothing but frauds and mobsters with political connections. Thanks for your input though, I'll look into it.Thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate it.
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Magic it would seem according to Classical Arabic and the Quran is the knowledge of how to delude, beguile and hoodwink. Which can be a useful skill that can produce good. The two angels taught this, but those people who learned it only wanted to learn things that did harm and no good. Among those things was how to break up marriages (maybe to take the women for themselves). The bad thing was not learning the knowledge of how to delude, it was only learning what did them harm instead of good. And whoever invests in what does them harm instead of what does them good will be punished for that. That is how I have seen that passage.
Godbless,
Anwar -
The two angels taught this
That's the part that really gets me though. Angels taught how to delude? And not only that, people have known how to be deceptive from even before Babylon came around - even in some of the stories of the prophets of old (from before the supposed time of Harut and Marut) they'd have "magicians" (however you want to define it) trying to divert attention away from the miracles of God.
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Well, exuse me for not knowing Arabic. I hope you know even most Muslims don't know a word of Arabic, let alone the history of the language. The translations on that site are as close as I can get to the original Arabic (by comparing all of them, including the literal translation). Is it now? You realize the existance of jinns has not been proven - some religious/spiritual people may believe in jinns, but that doesn't mean they exist. There are dozens of religions that don't acknowledge the existence of such beings.
Also, what on earth is an "evil magician"? Last time I checked, there's no such thing as "magic" in this universe that's governed by laws. I understand that you may believe in it because you believe that the Qur'an is the literal word of God, but you have to see it through my, and other inquisitive people's, eyes. I don't know what "assihra" means. If what you wrote in your first post was the definition of "assihira", I've already explained why I have a problem with that explanation for this verse. And how does "magic" work? What books? The books outlining countless superstitious rituals and practices? You can't seriously believe superstitions...
"Magic", to my understanding, is something that cannot be explained...no matter how many tools you have, how many colleagues you have, or how many resources. If something can be explained, it doesn't qualify as "magic". That's why I posted the question on this forum. I don't know Arabic, so I thought I might've been missing something. Perhaps you can explain this verse to me in a no-nonsense way - keeping in mind my understanding of it. IAye you are missing something
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/20_SIIN.htm
I came to the forum through that site above.
And sir, I cannot excuse even myself from not knowing arabic.
And no the closest you can get is to study arabic.An evil magician is someone who uses magic (illusions) for evil purposes.
In the quran, magic is only spoken about pharohs magicians, who themselves ended up claiming they weren't the real deal.
The only special case is where humans were given test/trial by the god in that of sending two angels (that's what the quran says, others challenge the original words used). Those who failed the trial, learnt what they learnt.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0jpUPLqLhA
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Peace,
First of all, the Qur'an uses the term "alsihra", which literally means the magic or the sorcery. There's nothing specifically "illogical" about magic or sorcery. To an extent, I agree with Anwar's interpretation of this; people regard "magic" as something to be avoided simply because it can't be explained... Secondly, the scriptures don't say this was taught to any two ANGELS in Babylon; this is another mistranslation. The passage says
Yu alimoon al-naasa al-sihra wa ma'onzila alaa al-MALIKAYN BIBAABILA harut wa marut...
This translates to "They teach the people the magic/sorcery and what was sent down to the TWO KINGS OF BABYLON, Harut and Marut..."The people who received this information and spread it throughout the kingdom were the kings, not angels. How would two angels ("malaikayn" spread magic and sorcery throughout a kingdom? ) Plus, we learn from history that the teachings of sorcery have been passed around since the days of the ancient Khemites/Egyptians. So, these "shayaateen"/devils/satans who were spreading these teachings were actual humans, not mystical flying spirits; they were humans who were misleading people from the right path. These humans, who were probably magicians and sorcerers, taught the kings of Babylon concepts of mysticism, which eventually spread throughout the land of Babylon; and people used these concepts to reject God and His signs. This is possibly one of the reasons why Moses, according to the Qur'an and the Hebrew scriptures, was initially blatantly rejected by the Egyptian magicians; because, through magic and sorcery, they were able to partially mimick some of his works (i.e. turning his staff into a serpent). However, after seeing the greatness of God's signs, they became submitters... So, is this concept of sorcery being taught throughout a land really so "illogical"? Sorcery is still practiced in many countries today. Plus, people often consider anything they don't understand and can't explain to be magic and sorcery. What these people actually practiced and believed may have been a form of mysticism (i.e. dualism), in which they placed partners alongside God and committed shirk. Either way, it promoted widespread blasphemy and overall rejection of God.
What's "illogical" about this?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace,
The verse is 2102
Ahmad, you said
al-MALIKAYN
This is wrong. This is not in the passage The word is Al-MALAKAYN, not AL-MALIKAYN. Please everyone review the passage carefully so as to not miss that vowel marking which is a fathah and not a kasrah. Malak and Malaak = Angel, NOT King. They are close spellings and close pronunciations but not the same.
Godbless,
Anwar -
The verse is 2102
This is wrong. This is not in the passage The word is Al-MALAKAYN, not AL-MALIKAYN. Please everyone review the passage carefully so as to not miss that vowel marking which is a fathah and not a kasrah. Malak and Malaak = Angel, NOT King. They are close spellings and close pronunciations but not the same.
You have to realize that, in the original, the entire message was based on sound and pronounciation. There were no vowels. This could've easily been misinterpreted and mistranslated over time... The Arabic translation for "two kings" is malikayn, which sound nearly identical to malakayn (two angels). The question you have to ask is Did Babylon have two angels, or did it have two kings? hmm Basing this concept of TWO ANGELS (malakayn) is illogical. Why would two angels come down from God and teach the people magic and sorcery? -\ It is possible, though, that two men taught magic and sorcery to the people, and they were in turn raised in status, viewed as kings among the people or even becoming actual kings, and they spread these teachings throughout the land. Either way, the concept of actual angels teaching this to the people is illogical and unlikely... Also, the passage clearly says "almalikayn" (or "almalakayn", depending on your interpretation), which implies the duality of the figures. So, is this an implication that Babylon specifically had two angels assigned to overlook it? Do all nations have two angels? Why would two angels be assigned to overlook a pagan nation, which based it's religion on sorcery and magic? Again, this is illogical and extremely unlikely. The most correct ideology would be two kings ("malikayn", not two angels...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace,
Arabic has always had vowels. Always. The writing did not write out vowels typically. But in the Quranic script you will find vowels (fathah, dammah and kasrah) that are not typically written, written with ya, waw, and alif. So unless there is a version of the Quran that has that vowelling we cannot change the Quran. Despite whether you think that change is more logical. I have no problem with angels in that verse.
Godbless,
Anwar