Rope vs Camel
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For those of you who are learned in linguistics, and have access to classical Arabic lexicons, I would ask you the following
What is the meaning of the word "jamal", which appears in the following two verses 740 (singular) // 7733 (plural)
I will post the verses for you
Those who have denied Our revelations, and became arrogant towards them, the gates of the sky will not open for them, nor will they enter Paradise until the camel passes through the eye of a needle. It is such that We recompense the criminals. {740}and..
Neither does it shade, nor does it avail from the flames.
It throws sparks as huge as logs.
As if they were yellow camels. {7731-33}The verse 740 is an analogy that states, beyond doubt, that those who reject the signs of God will have a permanent abode in Hell. They will not be released from hell until a "camel" passes through the eye of the needle.
The verses 7731-33 seem to be describing the flames of Hell.
The sparks appear like yellow "camels".This is the Free-minds translation which agrees with Pickthall and Yusuf Ali.
However, I have seen some translations ( can't remember where ) in which the word "jamal" is translated as "thick rope".
I could have sworn that there was a post about this subject, but some threads have a funny habit of disappearing mysteriously sometimes.
Can anyone comment on this?
Is there any proof in the classical Arabic lexicons that the word "jamal" does indeed mean "camel"??Thanx in advance.
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For those of you who are learned in linguistics, and have access to classical Arabic lexicons, I would ask you the following
What is the meaning of the word "jamal", which appears in the following two verses 740 (singular) // 7733 (plural)
I will post the verses for you
Those who have denied Our revelations, and became arrogant towards them, the gates of the sky will not open for them, nor will they enter Paradise until the camel passes through the eye of a needle. It is such that We recompense the criminals. {740}and..
Neither does it shade, nor does it avail from the flames.
It throws sparks as huge as logs.
As if they were yellow camels. {7731-33}The verse 740 is an analogy that states, beyond doubt, that those who reject the signs of God will have a permanent abode in Hell. They will not be released from hell until a "camel" passes through the eye of the needle.
The verses 7731-33 seem to be describing the flames of Hell.
The sparks appear like yellow "camels".This is the Free-minds translation which agrees with Pickthall and Yusuf Ali.
However, I have seen some translations ( can't remember where ) in which the word "jamal" is translated as "thick rope".
I could have sworn that there was a post about this subject, but some threads have a funny habit of disappearing mysteriously sometimes.
Can anyone comment on this?
Is there any proof in the classical Arabic lexicons that the word "jamal" does indeed mean "camel"??Thanx in advance.
Well, there is differnent opinion regarding 7733, which is "Jemalatu Sofor" means the ropes of a ship when it docks, you know they throw the ropes to to others on platforms to hold the ship in place, i guess they meant that the hell will throw the fire on them as the shipmen throw the ropes to others
this is a tough one indeed, and i can't give a conclusive opinion but all I can confirm that
Jemalatu is not the plural of Jamal, in fact the plural of Jamal is "Jemal" , this makes me incline to believe the above explanation about the ship ropes
when you make a plural of a feminine word in arabic, most likely it will have the "Ta" at the end, and because Jamal is not feminine then Jemalatu can't be the plural for Jamal
Allah knows best
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!
Dear Pazuzu,and others
I know that buttons on shirts or other clothings were not in use in arabia when quran landed,also mirrors were not there,they use to see their faces in water in a pot,combs were not available,scissors were not their for cutting beards,nothing for shaving beards,no metallic pots were there,no paper for writing was there,shoes and slippers were made for right and left foot look alike I means were identical not separate,people were so poor that they had just one piece of cloth to hide there private parts,no horse or camel carts,no lamps of any sort for night use,no books or written material ,quran was the first book in arabic,no roofs in houses including kaba,no doors in houses,.there are many other important things that werenot there,I wrote all this because this will also help us to understand the message of Islam.,any views
will be appreciated,thanks to all. nope yes -
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(G.A. Parwez)
(Lughatul-Qur'an)
http//qes.no/Lughat/index.html
http//qes.no/Lughat/LughatVolum-I.pdf(J-M-L)
al-jummal, al-juml, al-jumal, al-jamal thick rope on a boat {T, R}
Till the ship's rope passes through the eye of the needle (which is an impossibility)
(Mafhum-ul-Qur'an)
http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/expo_007.htmThose who discredit Our laws and treat them with arrogance will never receive those blessings which accrue as a result of obeying Allah?s laws. A twisted rope can pass through a needle?s eye, but it will not be possible for them to enter Jannat. This is how wrong doers are recompensed. For them there is fire of Jahannam - as a couch below and folds of covering above. This is how the Z?alimeen are requited.
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(Lane's Lexicon)
(Volume II, page 97)
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/10_JIIM.htm
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000097.pdf(J-M-L)
(S, K, &c.) and and (K) and and (IJ, K) the rope of a ship, (S, K,) i. e., the thick rope thereof, (TA,) that is also called , (S, TA,) consisting of ropes put together (S) and also signifies a thick rope, because consisting of many strands put together; pl. ; (Zj, TA which Muj?hid explains as meaning the ropes of bridges; but I 'Ab, as the ropes of ships, put together so as to be like the waists of men . (TA.) In all the forms mentioned above, except the last (ة, the word is read in the phrase , (K, TA) I 'Ab reads , (S, TA,) and so do 'Alee and many others is pl. of , a strand of a thick rope; or, accord. to IJ, pl. of the first is explained by Fr as meaning ropes put together; but Aboo-T?lib thinks that he meant , without tesh-deed. (TA.)
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(Muhammad Asad)
VERILY, unto those who give the lie to Our messages and scorn them in their pride, the gates of heaven shall not be opened; and they shall not enter paradise any more than a twisted rope can pass through a needle's eye for thus do We requite such as are lost in sin.
(Footnote 32)
Lit., "until (hatta) a twisted rope passes through a needle's eye"; since this phrase is meant to express an impossibility, the rendering of hatta as "any more than" seems to be appropriate here.
As for the word jamal occurring in this sentence, there is hardly any doubt that its translation, in this context, as "camel" is erroneous.
As pointed out by Zamakhshari (and confirmed by other classical commentators, including Razi), Ibn 'Abbas used to read the word in the spelling jummal, which signifies "a thick rope" or "a twisted cable"; and the same reading is attributed to 'Ali ibn Abi Talib (Taj al-'Arus).
It is to be noted that there are also several other dialectical spellings of this word, namely, jumal, juml, jumul and, finally, jamal (as in the generally-accepted version of the Qur'an) - all of them signifying "a thick, twisted rope" (Jawhari), and all of them used in this sense by some of the Prophet's Companions or their immediate successors (tabi'un).
Ibn 'Abbas is also quoted by Zamakhshari as having said that God could not have coined so inappropriate a metaphor as "a camel passing through a needle's eye" - meaning that there is no relationship whatsoever between a camel and a needle's eye whereas, on the other hand, there is a definite relationship between the latter and a rope (which, after all, is but an extremely thick thread).
On all accounts, therefore, the rendering of jamal as "a twisted rope" is, in this context, infinitely preferable to that of "a camel".
The fact that the latter rendering occurs in a somewhat similar phrase in the Greek version of the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew xix, 24, Mark x, 25 and Luke xviii, 25) does not affect this contention. One should remember that the Gospels were originally composed in Aramaic, the language of Palestine at the time of Jesus, and that those Aramaic texts are now lost.
It is more than probable that, owing to the customary absence of vowel signs in Aramaic writing, the Greek translator misunderstood the consonant spelling g-m-l (corresponding to the Arabic j-m-l), and took it to mean "a camel" a mistake repeated since, with regard to the above Qur'an-verse, by many Muslims and all, non-Muslim orientalists as well.
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(AGAIN ? CAMEL OR ROPE IN MATTHEW 19.24 AND MARK 10.25?)
http//tmcdaniel.palmerseminary.edu/camel-hawser.pdf
(5 pages - interesting read)(Excerpts)
In a private conversation, Khalid Blankenship, professor of Islam at Temple University (Philadelphia), affirmed that the pointed text says ?camel,? but that the unpointed text is unclear, suggesting that the verb seems to fit "hawser" better than "camel.?
...
Finally, there is the logic of the passage itself. Although Matthew has placed this saying on the journey from Galilee to Jerusalem, the real context is that Jesus is speaking to disciples whose culture had been fishing, whose nets had been mended by sewing, men who fished in little boats on a small lake. The image of the oceangoing vessel with a heavy, braided rope hawser holding to the anchor or tying the ship to the pier makes the image much stronger and is not at all a way of making it less impossible or less hyperbolic. As they used their hand-held needles and thread to mend nets, Jesus said ?It is easier for a hawser to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven.? The logic is inescapable, and the language moves in that direction, as soon as one looks to the Semitic tradition behind the Greek text, working in the languages which Jesus fluently read and spoke.
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(Camel or Rope? Matt 1924)
http//www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1601&start=15#p9554...from the 1st volume of bar-Bahlul's Lexicon (Alap-Lamed)
"Gamla is a thick rope (Aramaic "Khawla", Hebrew "Khevel" which is used to bind ships.", and he is quoting from previous lexicographers (such as Moshe bar-Kepha) who also explain how this very same thick rope was also used to tie heavy beams together. bar-Bahlul in the same entry goes on to explain that the rope that ties the beams and sides of wooden bridges is also called "Gamla."
Actually in this case there was a reason for the dual usage, since the undercoat of camels was fashioned into rope after they shed their winter coats.
http//www.medievaltextiles.org/reprintNMMcamelin.pdf==============================
http//www.peshitta.org/pdf/SemiSplitWords.pdf
(Camel or rope? ? Matthew 1924 / Mark 1025 / Luke 1825)
(page 4)However, gamlo', has a double meaning! As Aramaic evolved separately from Hebrew, it picked up new idioms and meanings to it's vocabulary. gamlo' is a perfect example, for Aramaic speaking peoples fashioned a rough, thick rope from camel's hair that had a very decent tensile strength, and after a while, it became to be known as, you guessed it, gamlo'. For example, modern-day society has the same phenomena where a product or item is referred to by the first name introduced, regardless of what brand it is. Millions of Americans still ask for a "Kleenex" instead of a tissue, the word for "razor" in Brazil is "Gillette," and an "IBM Computer" still refers to any Windows-compatible machine.
We appear to have come across an idiom long lost in the Greek translation of an Aramaic original. Although it doesn't really change the meaning of the parable, it grants us insight into how in tune with his audience the Messiah actually was. Cool, huh? ? ? Steve Caruso
?I've found a quote given by a 10th-century Aramaic lexicographer whose name was Bar-Bahlul. He produced an Aramaic dictionary and in it is the following comment for "Gamla"
"Gamla is a thick rope which is used to bind ships"
Considering that Jesus was speaking to fishermen, this meaning of Gamla seems more appropriate, and I think is a fantastic proof that the Greek was translated from an Aramaic ? ? Paul Younan
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(Hebraic Roots Bible)
http//www.coyhwh.com/en/bible.phpAnd again I say to you, It is easier for a heavy rope to pass through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of YAHWEH.
(Footnote)
In Aramaic the word for camel and heavy rope are similar ?Gamla? and ?Gamala?, only differentiated by a vowel point which the Greek translator missed. Yahshua was making the point that a heavy rope could not go through the needle but if you took it apart strand by strand one strand could go through, showing the rich man that he needed to distribute his possessions for the Kingdom.==============================
(Muhammad Asad)
which behold!- will throw up sparks like logs,
like giant fiery ropes!
{Footnote 12}
Lit., "like yellow twisted ropes", yellow being "the colour of fire" (Baghawi).
The conventional rendering of jimalat (also spelt jimalat and jimalah) as "camels", adopted by many commentators and, until now, by all translators of the Qur'an, must be rejected as grossly anomalous; see in this connection note 32 on the second part of 740 - "they shall not enter paradise any more than a twisted rope can pass through a needle's eye".
In the above verse, too, the plural noun jimalah (or jimalat) signifies "twisted ropes" or "giant ropes" - a connotation that has been forcefully stressed by Ibn Abbas, Mujahid, Sa'id ibn Jubayr and others (cf. Tabari, Baghawi, Razi, Ibn Kathir; also Bukhari, Kitab at-Tafsir).
Moreover, our observation of the trajectory of shooting stars fully justifies the rendering "giant fiery ropes".
Similarly, my rendering of qasr, in this context, as " logs" - instead of the conventional (and utterly meaningless) "castles", "palaces", etc. - goes back to all of the above-mentioned authorities.
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Translation by Mazhar A. Nurani
Certain fact about those who publicly contradicted Our Aa'ya'at Verbal Passages of the Book -Unprecedented Displays and arrogantly deviated away from them puffed and obsessed with pride of superiority and grandeur
The Doors of the Sky will not be opened for them;
And they cannot enter into the Paradise. Their entrance therein is as impossible as that a Rope of the ship or the Camel might pass through the eye of the needle.
Be mindful, this is how We will requite the Criminals - the proven guilty.It is the subject of preceding imperfect verb in subbjunctive mood. As doer of the verb, it is most appropriate to take it as camel; however, since on throwing, a rope might also enter into some opening it might as well be considered as the subject.
Translation after grammatical parsing of the sentences of Ayah 740
Certainly it hurls one after another in succession shortened in length sparks/flashes;
As if that spark/flash was like herd of camels of bright yellow hue or like yellow strands/filaments of a rope.This is giving information with metaphors. It is for students of physics-Visual description of heat waves. Scientists depict graphically heat wave exactly as is described here.
Interestintly one point of wave is given the name TroughL container for animal food or water. Camel has it. Make the yellow camels run one after another successively, it will give you an image of a wave. -
My dear Mazhar,
the needle with an eye for thread was invented but was not available in Mecca,but just needles without eyes were avaiable,I think you may check with google,and also for other items that I mentioned in my previous post,thanks.This presumption is as ridiculous as saying clothes were not available those days.
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Harmony with you,
Needles have existed since I do not know when, they were obviously not small or made of metal but of bone or wood or any other material. People were not stupid in making tools in the past. The needle is a very old tool. And to make somehow sophisticated clothing you need something like a needle as well or how is the fabric going to stick together between different pieces such as sleeves?
The "until a camel passes through the eye of a needle" is a slightly humorous saying, probably Middle-Eastern origin, to mark that something is virtually never to happen. The reason it is intended a bit humorous is the exaggerated proportions.
Be of one with God
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My dear Mazhar,
No reference is available in quran,so we can use some information from history,when later people asked friends of prophet Mohammad that what dress people wear when doing salat,a friend said,we all wore single piece of cloth without any sewing,dress of two pieces were with only with few rich people using imported dress,needles were there but without eye,and they were not made of steel,they were made of wood and bone,however some needles were their with half eye,this needle was used to make and repair shoes or dress made of hide,thread was there,first the hole was made in cloth with bone needle then thread was inserted and locked by knot,shoes were not made for right and left foot ,both shoes were identical,this was till 1760 when man made different shoes for right and left,also at that time shirt etc have no button,as they were not invented till then,common man was not allowed to wear a sewen dress,only tribal chiefs used it ,this custom came in from 4500 year old custom of Egyptian Pharos.a slave of Egyptian Gods were not allowed to wear sewen clothes,that is why ,we muslims being slaves of Allah,are not allowed to wear such sewen dress to do Hajj,like it is called Ehraam,and also muslim cannot be buried in sewed shroud.this custom is cominf down to us from from earlier prophets.present dress code for arab people is as old as prophet Ibrahim,he used it first,see the imaginary pictures of prophet Ibrahim drawn by christian artists,and see pictures from caves and stones.thanks -
My dear Mazhar,
salam and peace,
I appreciate your comments on my post,you said Meccans were importing silk from China,OK you are right and I dont deny it sure they knew well what the silk is,but please look at my post ,I never denied that they were not having silk,in fact I nver refered any thing about silk,so having silk is OK,but does that alsomeans that they were having needles with eyes?what has silk to do with needles?and in your post you are taking about 7th century,I am not talking about seventh century,I am talking about needles in 6th century in Mecca,and you are right that there were needles in 7th century with eyes,but not in 6th century,and would you not like to talk about items other than needles that I wrote in my post.I hope this post will not irk you,however you are free to reply or not to reply,anyway I once again must thank you for your patience . -
My dear Mazhar,
salam and peace,
I appreciate your comments on my post,you said Meccans were importing silk from China,OK you are right and I dont deny it sure they knew well what the silk is,but please look at my post ,I never denied that they were not having silk,in fact I nver refered any thing about silk,so having silk is OK,but does that alsomeans that they were having needles with eyes?what has silk to do with needles?and in your post you are taking about 7th century,I am not talking about seventh century,I am talking about needles in 6th century in Mecca,and you are right that there were needles in 7th century with eyes,but not in 6th century,and would you not like to talk about items other than needles that I wrote in my post.I hope this post will not irk you,however you are free to reply or not to reply,anyway I once again must thank you for your patience .No irk dear. Every thing which is costlier or is a new invention-discovered finds its way into areas where people can afford buying it.
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My dear Mazhar,
even if needles with eyes were not there,but the people living in and around Mecca knew well about needles with eyes,because they were found at other places,otherwise why would Allah like to refer to needles eye,similarly mirrors were also not their,they used to see their faces in a pot filled with water,again some rich ones were having (early mirrors)they were plates of metal buffed and polished with silver lining,this too looked like a morror,history and hadiths describe that the stones used for building kaba were not having 2 or 3 or 4 or 6 surfaces like a brick block today,all stones used by Prophet Ibrahim to make kaba were of irregular shapes,or like natural pieces of stone with not even one straight finished surface,this was so because the stone cutting hard steel tools were not in Mecca,such irregular stones were find during early reconstruction of kaba at the time of Khalifa Omer,I too dont believe in hadith,because they suited to various sects,kings made laws,personal beliefs and love of some persons belonging to Prophets family,but the information in hadiths which have no relationship with any sect or king or ruler is a part of muslim history which is supported by archieological finds.thanks -
Sewing has been present for thousands of years
Sewing needles should have been known to the people in the 4th/5th/6th/7th c. AD. Especially if the (Arab, or Nabataean) merchants were as active in commerce and trade as historians claim.PS The Seal of the Prophets lived not in Mecca.
The surmise is based on apocryphal anecdotes!No reference is available in quran,so we can use some information from history,when later people asked friends of prophet Mohammad that what dress people wear when doing salat, ....
Actually there is no need for "history", let alone your (alleged) LAAAATER people who (allegedly) asked the (alleged) "friends" of the Prophet about 'what not'. The Quranic Sura is crystal clear, and the 'gml' (/hawser) cannot pass through the "needle's eye". Are you sure "no reference is available in the Quran"!? What does 'Sam al-khiyat' ( ط mean according to you!?
SLM
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Salaam to all,
I realize this topic has not been posted in for a while but I did not want to start a new topic unnecessarily, so please excuse this late addition.
7731 "(Which yields) no shade of coolness, and is of no use against the fierce Blaze.
| - No| - cool shade| - and not| - availing| - against| - the flame.|7732 "Indeed it throws about sparks (huge) as Forts,
| - Indeed, it| - throws up| - sparks| - as the fortress,|7733 "As if there were (a string of) yellow camels (marching swiftly)."
| - As if they (were)| - camels| - yellow.|Logically it would appear that the above situation is taking place after the bodily death of the individual. The subject matter is "al lahab" and one of the descriptions of this place/ state of being/ process is described as shooting sparks like firewood.
Ra-Miim-Ya = to throw, cast, hit by throwing, blame, cast on, charge.
Shiin-Ra-Ra = to do evil, be ill natured, wicked. yashirru/yasharru - to find fault, defame. sharrun (pl. ashrar) - evil, bad, wicked, vicious ones. It is noteable that shurrun is an
exceptional form of elative adjective while the measure for elative in Arabic is afa'la. shararun (pl. ashraar) - sparks of fire.Large and dry, or large and thick, or dry, firewood;
The above description matches electrical discharges that look like firewood.
The other description tells us that it is like twisted ropes of yellow colour.
Jiim-Miim-Lam = To collect a thing or things, to be beautiful, comely in person, good in action/behaviour/moral character, to be moderate, to be pleasing/kind, handsome, decorous/honourable/gracious, to be elegant, to aggregate or make something complete, male camel; ship; palm tree; large sea fish or whale; twisted rope.
Sad-Fa-Ra = to dye or paint yellow. safraa'un (f. of asfaru, pl. sufrun) - yellow, tawny. musfarun (vb. 9) - that which is or becomes yellow and pale.
Birkeland currents seem to match this description.
https//www.plasma-universe.com/Birkeland_current
https//www.plasma-universe.com/Filamentation
Below are descriptions of plasma.
https//www.plasma-universe.com/Plasma
http//whatis.techtarget.com/definition/plasma
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_(physics)
Plasma is the fourth state of matter according to physics. Even though we can see some forms of plasma on earth we are unfamiliar with this state. According to science it is the most abundant form of matter in our observable universe and it is what we are made up of.
"Our soul and spiritual bodies (aura) are energized, strengthened and built by the same core substance from which the Universe has been created, plasma. The Soul-Spirit is the plasma power supply inside of our physical body, which functions similarly to a biological computer."
http//www.lovehaswon.org/love-blogs/plasma-and-the-human-body
http//www.energypulsesource.com/2015/05/plasma-body-alchemy.html
https//www.newscientist.com/article/dn4174-plasma-blobs-hint-at-new-form-of-life/
https//www.energeticsynthesis.com/index.php/resource-tools/news-shift-timelines/2756-plasma
Plasma consists in part of electrons and interestingly, the word "electron" literally means "amber" which is yellow in colour.
The word "elektron" in Greek means amber, the yellow fossilized resin of evergreen trees, a "natural plastic material" already known to the ancient Greeks. It was known that when amber was rubbed with dry cloth--producing what now one would call static electricity--it could attract light objects, such as bits of paper.
William Gilbert, a physician who lived in London at the time of Queen Elizabeth I and Shakespeare, studied magnetic phenomena and demonstrated that the Earth itself was a huge magnet, by means of his "terrella" experiment. But he also studied the attraction produced when materials such as amber were rubbed, and named it the "electric" attraction. From that came the word "electricity" and all others derived from it.
During the 1800s it became evident that electric charge had a natural unit, which could not be subdivided any further, and in 1891 Johnstone Stoney proposed to name it "electron." When J.J. Thomson discovered the light particle which carried that charge, the name "electron" was applied to it. The many applications of electrons moving in a near-vacuum or inside semiconductors were later dubbed "electronics."
http//www-spof.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/whelect.html.
Hope this makes sense.
Regards,
Janet.