Is the Great Reading Anti-Statist?
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258 We said, "Enter this town, and eat from it as plentifully as you wish; and enter the gate humbly, and talk amicably, We will then forgive your mistakes, and We will increase for the good-doers."
I think 258 indicates that the god is no respecter of national sovereignty, borders and the like. The god told the Israelites to enter a foreign land and to speak to the people of that land in a polite manner. The god didn?t tell them to ask the inhabitants of that land if they could live in it too, and that makes sense because not all of that land was owned by its inhabitants. How can a people or their government claim authority over land that they don?t own or even live on? It makes sense to keep people out of private property, but it makes no sense for a government to keep foreigners out of uninhabited land that no one owns or uses because it?s up for grabs.
521-26 "O my people, enter the holy land that God Has decreed for you, and do not turn your backs, or you will become losers." They said, "O Moses, in it are a mighty people, and we will not enter it until they leave. So when they leave, then we will enter it." Among those who were afraid, two men whom God had blessed, said, "Enter upon them through the gate; when you enter it then you will be the victors. You shall put your trust in God if you had acknowledged." They said, "O Moses, we will never enter it as long as they are in it, so go you and your Lord and fight, we will stay right here!" He said, "My Lord, I do not control except myself and my brother, so separate between us and between the wicked people." He said, "Then it has become forbidden for them for forty years, and they will be lost in the land." Do not be sorrowful over the wicked people.
Perhaps the above verses tell us that you can fight the inhabitants of a certain territory if they don?t let you occupy parts of that territory that no one owns. Should that bother us? I don't think so because fighting for equal rights (between natives and foreigners in this case) isn't a bad thing. I humbly believe that statism is an obvious evil because it allows governments (another construct that I believe is in opposition to the words of the great reading) to assume too much authority over people?s lives and to discriminate between people on the basis of inconsequential things like who their parents were, where they were born and sometimes their ethnicity too.
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Peace
Yes, i believe the Quran is Anti-Statist. I also think borders that separate countries is not something which god inspired human beings to make. having borders and countries are man-made concepts. Every country should be for everyone. That way, the world would be a much better place, and everyone could travel or live everywhere they wanted whenever they wanted.
All human beings should follow their own religion. A christian should follow christianity, a muslim should follow islam, etc. For the hindu, the old way, is the way of wisdom and the best way. Human beings separate their countries with borders, but no one can separate the heaven above that surrounds everyone. The ignorant say the following My religion is the only, My religion is the best. But when the heart gains true enlightenment, it knows that over the secterian wars, rules the one hidden, eternal, all knowing power - Ramakrishna Parahamsa (Indian Mystic)
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Went through it. Don't see the point you're trying to make. By the way, does 952 make desertion a crime? It says "While we wait for you to be afflicted by God with a retribution from Him, or by our hands". I think there are two possible ways to understand 952. One is that the believers are told to tell the deserters that they expect the deserters to become hostile in the future and so the deserters will be fought as a consequence of becoming hostile. Another possible way of understanding 952 is that desertion itself is a form of aggression for which you're allowed to fight. I think the former understanding is a more ethical one but I don't know if it's a more accurate one. What do you think?
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962 They swear to you by God in order to please you; while God and His messenger are more worthy to be pleased if they are believers.
Was pleasing the messenger the mark of a believer? I'm sorry if I've derailed this discussion, but 952 and 962 are puzzling me.
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Funny, the pronoun yurduhu (they please/satisfy him) is singular, but the verse mentions the god and Its messenger. I don't know any Arabic, but based on the meaning of yurduhu, I'd say the most accurate translation of 962 is in the Reformist Translation
962 They swear to you by God in order to please you; while God and His messenger is more worthy to be pleased if they were those who acknowledge.
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Peace to all,
I dont think the Quran is explicitly against staehood, there are verse that say God could have made us al one people but he made us different so we may know and learn from each other, and some say that there are states we should leave if they are treating us bad or oppressing us and other states that are better that we should migrate to, so if there was no distinction there would be no difference, and also it says he checks the agressions of one people by another people, otherwise we would see all churches and mosques torn down, remember these verses,? So since the concept of statehood has existed almost since the begining of society, it must have evolved for a good reason, we plan but God plans better.
Kurt
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Because I'm not aware of any verse in the great reading that tells you not to prosecute criminals in case some calamity from the god befalls them, I think 952 is warning the deserters that they'll be fought against only if they become hostile towards the believers. Furthermore, why would the believers tell the deserters to await punishment if the condition for punishment weren't that they become hostile? It wouldn't because that'd be ridiculous.
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Peace IronSky,
I dont think the Quran is explicitly against staehood, there are verse that say God could have made us al one people but he made us different so we may know and learn from each other,
I don't see how that verse permits statism.
and some say that there are states we should leave if they are treating us bad or oppressing us and other states that are better that we should migrate to, so if there was no distinction there would be no difference,
497 doesn't mention tell you to emigrate from one state to another. It simply tells you to look for a more peaceful place to go to, which could be a city or even a neighbourhood.
and also it says he checks the agressions of one people by another people, otherwise we would see all churches and mosques torn down, remember these verses,? So since the concept of statehood has existed almost since the begining of society, it must have evolved for a good reason, we plan but God plans better.
Kurt
Forgive me, I don't understand what you mean by that.
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But other parts of the great reading also tell you to protect people who might not be part of your community
475 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak amongst the men and women and children say ?Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from Yourself a Supporter, and grant us from Yourself a Victor!?
499 And if two parties of believers battle with each other, you shall reconcile them; but if one of them aggresses against the other, then you shall fight the one aggressing until it complies with God?s command. Once it complies, then you shall reconcile the two groups with justice, and be equitable; for God loves those who are equitable.
I think a holistic view of the great reading reveals that statism, a standing army, police, government, etc., are wrong. It is my humble opinion that as per the great reading, there should only be courts and that a leader's main role is to act as a judge, however, other ideological groups may have their own courts and judges if they wish. Furthermore, the roles of general and policy maker aren't exclusively those of a leader but muslims are advised to act as a unit.
The major role of a leader is defined in the following verses
3820-25 And We strengthened his kingship, and We gave him the wisdom and the ability to make sound judgment. Did the news come to you of the disputing party who came over into the temple enclosure? When they entered upon David, he was startled by them. They said ?Have no fear. We are two who have disputed, and one has wronged the other, so judge between us with truth, and do not wrong us, and guide us to the right path.? ?This is my brother and he owns ninety nine lambs, while I own one lamb; so he said to me ?Let me take care of it? and he pressured me.?? He said ?He has wronged you by asking to combine your lamb with his lambs. And many who mix their properties take advantage of one another, except those who believe and do good works, and these are very few.? And David guessed that We had tested him, so he sought forgiveness from his Lord, and fell down kneeling, and repented. So We forgave him in this matter. And for him with Us is a near position, and a beautiful abode.
Different courts for different ideological groups
542-52 They listen to lies, and consume money illicitly. If they come to you, then you may judge between them or turn away from them; and if you turn away from them then they cannot harm you in the least; and if you judge then judge between them with justice. God loves those who are just. And how can they make you their judge when they have the Torah, in which is God?s judgment; then they turn away after that. Those are not believers. We have sent down the Torah, in it is guidance and a light; the prophets who have submitted judged with it for those who are Jews, as well as the Rabbis, and the Priests, for what they were entrusted of God?s Scripture, and they were witness over. So do not fear the people but fear Me; and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters. And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked. And We sent in their footsteps Jesus the son of Mary, authenticating what was present with him of the Torah. And We gave him the Injeel, in it is guidance and light, and to authenticate what is present with him of the Torah, and a guidance and lesson for the righteous. And let the people of the Injeel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the vile ones. And We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the Scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute. And judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their wishes, and beware lest they divert you away from some of what God has sent down to you. If they turn away, then know that God wants to inflict them with some of their sins; and most of the people are corrupt. Is it the judgment of the days of ignorance that they seek? Who is better than God as a judge for a people that comprehend? O you who believe, do not take the Jews and the Nazarenes as allies, for they are allies to one another; and whoever takes them as such from amongst you is one of them. God does not guide the wicked people. You will see those who have a disease in their hearts hurrying to them, saying ?We fear that a disaster will befall us!? Perhaps God will bring a victory or a decree from Himself, then they will become regretful over what they had kept hidden within themselves.
I think 552 tells believers not to seek the ruling of a Jewish or Christian court, but to accept the great reading's jurisdiction instead. The great reading calls the Jews and Christians believers and it says that believers are the allies of one another (971).
1091 Say ?O rejecters,?
1092 ?I do not serve what you serve,?
1093 ?Nor do you serve what I serve,?
1094 ?Nor will I serve what you serve,?
1095 ?Nor will you serve what I serve,?
1096 ?To you is your system, and to me is mine.?The political system of islam is what makes islam so beautiful. There's no rigid hierarchy and stupid bureaucracy in it. Islam's political system is fair, simple and anarchistic. Everyone is considered equal in it and treated with dignity.
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I love your avatar.
who's avatar? jedi Mine? its a nissan sileighty SR20DET turbo!
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I think Meteora means he loves mine, Munzir P
It's the "libertarian duality symbol" P Fancy name, no? So fancy in fact that it kind of embarrasses me just to say it. I read that adding an to some Arabic words intensifies their meaning so adding an to qara (which I think means "Reading" turns it into "Great reading" or something like that.
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Well I figured it was derived from iqra
or something like that, and iqrais the very first Quranic words, which means read.So it is a reading, but I still don't know for sure where the great comes from. In fact, I think it's called kareem instead of great (or kabeer).
That's not to say it's not great. It is the greatest reading ever, hence the BEST HADITH. All other hadith and books, if they wage war against God's system (sunna) are trash.
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I think Meteora means he loves mine, Munzir P
It's the "libertarian duality symbol" P Fancy name, no? So fancy in fact that it kind of embarrasses me just to say it. I read that adding an to some Arabic words intensifies their meaning so adding an to qara (which I think means "Reading" turns it into "Great reading" or something like that.
But my avatar is still beautiful? won't you agree? Its a turbo! yay
