Wife Beating is a Therapy
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Thank you Sister, I know and I looked search enginhe before posting, there were 2 thread about it one was let say out of date without answering the question , and the other one is this one and as you can see I am not satisfy of the answer
Peace
Dear Herbman
Let me say that your observation is absolutely correct.
Meanings attached to the verbs are two types
Only verbs
Verbs + Particles = idiomsOnly verbs use and idiomatic use are usually different e.g in English
Break
Break into
Break out
Break down
All of the above have different meanings
The same case is in Arabic.
= To repent to Allah
= To accept repentanceThe only phrase of verb "dharaba" which carries the meaning of "separation" is
But in the Quran it is not used in the aya under considration.
Secondly just before this phrase of "wadhriboohunna" we see " wahjaroohunna fil mazji3i" ie. Separate from them in their bedrooms. So repetition of "separation " does not make any sense.
Let us suppose someone says that was bed room separation but this is more severe type of separation . Then it is what ?
1oes it mean that the woman should be expelled from the house ,where will she go then ? on the roads ?
2oes it mean that the man should leave the house ,then for what ? What is his fault ? Where will he go ?
3If someone say that it means permanent separation ,for that Quran has very clearly used the words of "talaaq". Moreover in the next verse there is mentioning of attempt of reconcialtion which is not possible of divorce has occured.
So meaning of "Separation " does not fit here.
Just a thought.
Regards -
Thank You Q_Student,
Let me just quote some points here
"The only phrase of verb "dharaba" which carries the meaning of "separation" is
= "I just posted this DARABA BAYNA
DARABA dahru baynana
which means "Fortune or time, separated us"
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000065.pdfSo DARABA 3AN is not the only one see link
My question was, is BAYNA a particule???
In any case I agree in the following verse DARABA can only be SEPARATE, because How can you beat (punish) your wife for just a suspition without her having doing anything, remember the verse start "if you fear...." that means the spouse hasn't done anything wrong yet!!! Int'it?
And in Quran you cannot punish anyone only on suspition.Best regards
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Thank You Q_Student,
Let me just quote some points here
"The only phrase of verb "dharaba" which carries the meaning of "separation" is
= "I just posted this DARABA BAYNA
DARABA dahru baynana
which means "Fortune or time, separated us"
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000065.pdfSo DARABA 3AN is not the only one see link
My question was, is BAYNA a particule???
In any case I agree in the following verse DARABA can only be SEPARATE, because How can you beat (punish) your wife for just a suspition without her having doing anything, remember the verse start "if you fear...." that means the spouse hasn't done anything wrong yet!!! Int'it?
And in Quran you cannot punish anyone only on suspition.Best regards
Dear Herbman
This is the problem
You will see some other uses of "Dharaba"
like
= the bird went in search of food --- 1
=Stallion leaped over the she camel ----2
= The fortune separated them ---3In Sentence No the subject is "bird" ,in 2 it is "stallion" in three it is "fortune"(time).
Since these usages are such you cannot replace these subjects by human beings unless the Arabs have used it.
If there is some evidence for this use in Arabic literature that these meanings are used with human being as a subject, No problem.
If you have some such example ,please do quote ,it will be appreciated ,because I am myself in search of such an example.
Regards -
Please help, I am waiting forward for your answers.
Please have a look at my response on this thread where daraba is used in the quraan (435) meaning (keep away) and the object is direct/no preposition
(Taken from Wakas link)
The object here is the "dhikr " . Rephrasing "afa nadhribul thikra 3ankum " Shlall we turn away the dhikr from you. The preposition is not for the thikr (which is turned away) but for "you ". Clearly dharaba here means turn away nadhribul thikra turn the dhikr away; 3ankum from you
( I did not respond to the original message then because at the time I was in Sudan without internet connection)
Thanks Wakas for bringing up this link. -
peace,
Dear herbman, Qstudent, Samia, all,
You will find many people say a preposition can change the meaning of a verb, and that is true. You will also find people say DRB can only mean "turn away / separate / leave etc" with the preposition "3an" (as Qstudent implies) however, when you ask where is this apparent rule from? You will get silence. I have never seen anyone cite a source, other than to say this is its common usage, and some might even say no example saying otherwise exists.
When you then ask what is the pre-eminent source in Arabic prose that pretty much established most of Arabic grammar, they will say The Quran. When you then ask them and is there an example of this so-called unbreakable rule of DRB+3an usage in The Quran, they can only cite one verse which does not even prove or disprove their case (as sister Samia pointed out). When you then ask them is it solid to form an unbreakable rule from this one occurrence? You will get silence. When you then ask them is this apparent rule of DRB+3an usage pre-Quran or post-Quran (the book that most of Arabic grammar is based on), you will get dumbfounded looks. When you then ask can it theoretically mean "turn away / separate / leave / etc" without "3an" according to Arabic grammar, they will hesitantly admit yes.
When you then show them examples, as the one you did, they will say "but that doesn't imply to people" or similar. Again, they remain silent on citing a source for this alleged rule.Try it in forums, see what happens.
While you are there ask them to cite the meaning of "beat" from a Classical Arabic dictionary, or an example of "beat" usage in a Classical Arabic dictionary example, see what happens.
They are truly lost in a maze of their own making.
And that is not even bringing in the logical and word precision par excellence that is The Quran.
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peace Scheherezade,
StudyQuran is a resource site, and contains about 30 different English translations, some of which translate it as "beat" and some which do not. No translation represents StudyQuran.
No. If all goes to plan, this issue will be better clarified in another project currently being worked on.
Thank you for your reply, Wakas, and good luck with your project. I certainly hope that you will be able to better clarify this issue, but for now, can you or anyone else here who is familiar with classical Arabic (Samia? Huruf?) correctly translate 434? And I don't mean words here and there but the entire verse.
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If you understand idribuhunna as beat the problem is that it is an absurdity. What does daraba mean in this case? You go and beat the hell out of her? Is that going to save the marriage? How does that fit with the rest of the Qur'an? The fact that you have problems with her does it make out of her a sharika, a hypocrite, and idolater? Even in that case does the Qur'an make a case for beating shuraka', hypocrites or idolaters if you have personal problems with them? Aren'you rather advised no to take them as compannions? Or it doesn't mean that you beat the hell out her, but rather that you just go, stop in front of her and very seriously say "I hereby comply with the third level and smack you so?" and then smack her once on the buttocks? If you understand daraba as beat it lacks any precision, it is as good as not saying anything, and if you understand it as beating the hell out her, you certainly will solve the marriage problem with an immediate break. But that could also be done without beating. Psychollogically also it is bullshit. You keep them apart for a time and then go and smack them. My God? that should make her think? If being kept apart for some time hasn't made her think, then surely, the final smack will do the trick. Mind you it might do if she had sense of humour. And we are talking about smacking once, because we must bear in mind that daraba is not darrab you really cannot go and beat her at leasure, no way, that is outside the scope of daraba, which is a "once" verb. So in purity that is all a person is authorized to do according to this understanding of the word. Of course you can even kill her with that once hit if it is karatekalike dispensed. Even because of this imprecision the beat understanding is useless as and meaningless as an injunction.
Those tafsir people who have understood and explained daraba in this instance as beating usually have done so in the sense of beating lightly, as a symbolical deed and not as a means of physical compulsion, because general contents of the Qur'an do not warrant anything else. To start with, a husband is not a judge doubled of a an executor, therefore he may act unilateraly as an interested person in a conflict and as such do whatever he deems suitable, but never as an executor of any legal punishment. That is aboherrent and unwarranted in the Qur'an, it doesn't matter whether he is right or he has been wronged or not. Those who uphold the beating lightly version justify it in the events that purportedly brought about this revelation which were certain discussions between the Prophet and some people regarding disagreements in their marriages and wife-beatings. I do not think that that inference is right. If such a thing existed, they are two different things, those exchanges and the aya.
Be it as it may, we do not have a reason to believe without doubt that that was the reason and that the Qur'an has not cared to state that reason or circumstance. However, there are other readings of the daraba word, like for instance to impress something upon somebody. Make a firm statement of determination to somebody, like daraba mathal, putting the disjunctive before her, as she see he can live without her, so...
Farida wrote somewhere sometime on the merits of the daraba interpretion not to say that it was meant so, but to make psychollogically plain, the absurdity of wife-beating to men who would otherwise be prone to resort to that. That may be a possibility as a way to disuade of wife-beating. But it is out of the question that it is of any use to make a woman ply who hasn't plied to the two previous steps. And would automatically put the wrong on the husband.
Things must make sense in general and within the Qur'an as a whole.
Salaam
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If you understand idribuhunna as beat the problem is that it is an absurdity. What does daraba mean in this case? You go and beat the hell out of her? Is that going to save the marriage? How does that fit with the rest of the Qur'an? The fact that you have problems with her does it make out of her a sharika, a hypocrite, and idolater? Even in that case does the Qur'an make a case for beating shuraka', hypocrites or idolaters if you have personal problems with them? Aren'you rather advised no to take them as compannions? Or it doesn't mean that you beat the hell out her, but rather that you just go, stop in front of her and very seriously say "I hereby comply with the third level and smack you so?" and then smack her once on the buttocks? If you understand daraba as beat it lacks any precision, it is as good as not saying anything, and if you understand it as beating the hell out her, you certainly will solve the marriage problem with an immediate break. But that could also be done without beating. Psychollogically also it is bullshit. You keep them apart for a time and then go and smack them. My God? that should make her think? If being kept apart for some time hasn't made her think, then surely, the final smack will do the trick. Mind you it might do if she had sense of humour. And we are talking about smacking once, because we must bear in mind that daraba is not darrab you really cannot go and beat her at leasure, no way, that is outside the scope of daraba, which is a "once" verb. So in purity that is all a person is authorized to do according to this understanding of the word. Of course you can even kill her with that once hit if it is karatekalike dispensed. Even because of this imprecision the beat understanding is useless as and meaningless as an injunction.
Those tafsir people who have understood and explained daraba in this instance as beating usually have done so in the sense of beating lightly, as a symbolical deed and not as a means of physical compulsion, because general contents of the Qur'an do not warrant anything else. To start with, a husband is not a judge doubled of a an executor, therefore he may act unilateraly as an interested person in a conflict and as such do whatever he deems suitable, but never as an executor of any legal punishment. That is aboherrent and unwarranted in the Qur'an, it doesn't matter whether he is right or he has been wronged or not. Those who uphold the beating lightly version justify it in the events that purportedly brought about this revelation which were certain discussions between the Prophet and some people regarding disagreements in their marriages and wife-beatings. I do not think that that inference is right. If such a thing existed, they are two different things, those exchanges and the aya.
Be it as it may, we do not have a reason to believe without doubt that that was the reason and that the Qur'an has not cared to state that reason or circumstance. However, there are other readings of the daraba word, like for instance to impress something upon somebody. Make a firm statement of determination to somebody, like daraba mathal, putting the disjunctive before her, as she see he can live without her, so...
Farida wrote somewhere sometime on the merits of the daraba interpretion not to say that it was meant so, but to make psychollogically plain, the absurdity of wife-beating to men who would otherwise be prone to resort to that. That may be a possibility as a way to disuade of wife-beating. But it is out of the question that it is of any use to make a woman ply who hasn't plied to the two previous steps. And would automatically put the wrong on the husband.
Things must make sense in general and within the Qur'an as a whole.
Salaam
This is great, Huruf; thank you. But it still does not answer my question. This verse has been discussed so many times in the past and although most people seem to agree that "beating" is not the correct translation, the verse remains unchanged and no one has offered a new and complete translation of it. So the question remains What does it really mean? Huruf, if you (or anyone else here with knowledge of Classical Arabic) were given authority to rewrite (correctly translate) 434, how would you write it?
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My rendition
The men are supporters/maintainers of the women with what God favoured on some of them over others and for what they spent of their money, so the righteous women are dutiful/obedient; guardians/protectors to the unseen with what God guarded/protected. And as for those women you fear their rising up /disloyalty, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bed, and idriboo them. If they obeyed you, then seek not against them a way; Truly, God is High, Great.
The above is the most accurate according to the Arabic as far as I'm aware. I have deliberately left the word in question untranslated. This will be explained in detail in an article I am working on, unless The God wills otherwise. I will also provide my rendition of 4128 below, since they have nushuz in common, albeit 434 is pre-emptive (i.e. fear), and 4128 is after the fact (i.e. feared)
And if a woman feared from her husband rising up /disloyalty or turning away /alienation, then there is no blame upon them that they reconcile between themselves a reconciliation; and the reconciliation is better. And miserliness/selfishness is present in the souls, and if you (masculine) do good and are conscientious/forethoughtful, then surely God is aware what you do.
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Peace all,
This is great, Huruf; thank you. But it still does not answer my question. This verse has been discussed so many times in the past and although most people seem to agree that "beating" is not the correct translation, the verse remains unchanged and no one has offered a new and complete translation of it. So the question remains What does it really mean? Huruf, if you (or anyone else here with knowledge of Classical Arabic) were given authority to rewrite (correctly translate) 434, how would you write it?
434
The phrase (waidriboohunna) is not literal for ?and abandon or leave them (F)? ? the phrase prior (waohjuroohunna) ?and abandon them (F)? in the place of lying down (beds)? means to desert them in the literal sense.To give/show or hit you (idriboohu) with another non literal example
4358
And they said "Are our gods better or He?" They did not give it (the objection) to you {daraboohu} except arguing, but they are a people disputing.Thus my rendition
434...and those whom (F) you fear their (F) quarrel, so advise them (F) and abandon them (F) in the place of lying down, and ignore/show them (F), so if they obeyed you, so do not oppress on them (F) a way, that God is high, mighty/great.
Example scenario
Wife goes out on a wild shopping spree, uses foul language on husband or whatever.
Husband tells her this behavior has stop and if she continues, deserts her in bed and by doing so ignores/shows or ?hits her? with his displeasure ? it is one continuous action which may last a day or weeks or longer. If they change be good, else divorce them in a nice manner?
2231 And if you divorced the women, so they reached their term, so hold them (F) with kindness or divorce them (F) with kindness, and do not hold them (F) harming to transgress, and who does that, so he had caused injustice (to) himself. And do not take God's verses mockingly, and remember God's blessing on you, and what He descended on you from The Book and the wisdom, He advises you with it, and fear and obey God, and know that God (is) with every thing knowledgeable.
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Peace all,
434
The phrase (waidriboohunna) is not literal for ?and abandon or leave them (F)? ? the phrase prior (waohjuroohunna) ?and abandon them (F)? in the place of lying down (beds)? means to desert them in the literal sense.To give/show or hit you (idriboohu) with another non literal example
4358
And they said "Are our gods better or He?" They did not give it (the objection) to you {daraboohu} except arguing, but they are a people disputing.Thus my rendition
434...and those whom (F) you fear their (F) quarrel, so advise them (F) and abandon them (F) in the place of lying down, and ignore/show them (F), so if they obeyed you, so do not oppress on them (F) a way, that God is high, mighty/great.
Example scenario
Wife goes out on a wild shopping spree, uses foul language on husband or whatever.
Husband tells her this behavior has stop and if she continues, deserts her in bed and by doing so ignores/shows or ?hits her? with his displeasure ? it is one continuous action which may last a day or weeks or longer. If they change be good, else divorce them in a nice manner?
2231 And if you divorced the women, so they reached their term, so hold them (F) with kindness or divorce them (F) with kindness, and do not hold them (F) harming to transgress, and who does that, so he had caused injustice (to) himself. And do not take God's verses mockingly, and remember God's blessing on you, and what He descended on you from The Book and the wisdom, He advises you with it, and fear and obey God, and know that God (is) with every thing knowledgeable.
Peace Eid
That is a good attempt.But your second example is not what you think.Look at one verse before.4357
(4357) And when the son of Mary was cited as an example, your people raised a clamour at it,4358 (435 saying, "Are our gods better, or is he?" *52 They have cited this example to you only in the spirit of dispute. The fact is that they are a quarrelsome people.
Regards
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Peace everyone,
One of the meanings given for DRB in Project Root List is "prevent/hinder". How about
434 Those who go on foot are to support those left behind by what God has bestowed on them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright women are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those women from whom you fear their uprising, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and prevent/hinder them. If they respond to you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great.
Take measures to prevent them/hinder them from disloyalty/uprising, for example by taking steps to remove the source/cause of their potential uprising/disloyalty etc. Prevent/hinder would be more inline with being pre-emptive. Just an idea.
Example scenario
Wife goes out on a wild shopping spree, uses foul language on husband.
Husband tells her this behavior has to stop and if she continues, deserts her in bed and prevents/hinders her from the wild shopping spree by cutting the resources and stops talking to her until she stops using the foul language etc. If she changes be good, else divorce her in a nice manner?
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That is a good attempt.But your second example is not what you think.Look at one verse before.
4357
(4357) And when the son of Mary was cited as an example, your people raised a clamour at it,4358 (435 saying, "Are our gods better, or is he?" *52 They have cited this example to you only in the spirit of dispute. The fact is that they are a quarrelsome people.
Regards
Peace Q_student,
Alright, so what's the difference in either example were sticks being used, slaps or punches being thrown?
434
Regards
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My attempt
4.34. The men are supporters/maintainers of the women on the basis and by the means with which God has given more to each with respect to the other and by means of what they spent of their money; and virtuous women are obedient to God, guardians/protectors to the unseen with what God guarded/protected. And as for those women you fear their rising up /disloyalty, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bed, and idriboo them. If they pay heed, then seek not against them a way; Truly, God is High, Great.
Comment
On the basis of each other reciprocal advantages, men are maintainers, women are guardians of what God means to be guarded.
Salaam
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My attempt
4.34. The men are supporters/maintainers of the women on the basis and by the means with which God has given more to each with respect to the other and by means of what they spent of their money; and virtuous women are obedient to God, guardians/protectors to the unseen with what God guarded/protected. And as for those women you fear their rising up /disloyalty, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bed, and idriboo them. If they pay heed, then seek not against them a way; Truly, God is High, Great.
Comment
On the basis of each other reciprocal advantages, men are maintainers, women are guardians of what God means to be guarded.
Salaam
so this is not about husband and/or wife?
and who is "YOU" in the verse?
