Help with Quranic Word!
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A very crucial discussion going on at this site. I feel that the problem with so many disagreements on the meanings and interpretation of Qur'an is because of some deficiency on our part to correctly apply the grammar rules as were utilised by the original writers (Katibeen) of the revelations as dictated by the Prophet (S) at the time of the revelations. In original script, the various vowel signs were not put on, as it was a local language and clearly understood by all. As the Holy Book started to go beyond the bounds of the tribe, the locals were concerned that others may not see the words as they are meant to be and hence wrote the books of grammar, explaining the need for fatah, kesrah, Gezm , teshdeed and so on and so forth. The purpose was not just to improve the recitation (as in tajweed), but was to convey the correct words and hence the correct meaning and hence the correct message. We emphasize too much on the Tajweed only for the betterment of recitation, often forgetting that the purpose of the book is to exactly understand the message of God, without any doubts. If we have decoded each and every word with the help of these very vital signs above and below each of the words in the Quran, technically we should have a unified translation, taking away the need for assumptions and explanations utilised by scholars in later times.
We at the present times are at a great advantage point compared to many scholars from the past who had to spend their lifetime just to gather the information, before they could write up the explanations. The internet has revolutionised the accees to all the literature from remote past at the finger tips of all those who may be interested. There are english translations of all great Arabic scholars who had written books on the grammatical and lexical concepts utilised in the writing of the script and the language in general, at the time of the Prophet(S). There are multiple books such as Edward Lanes translation of lexical concepts, William Wrights book of grammar, Palmer book of grammar and other six volume book of grammar by great scholars, which are translations of work done within about the first century Hijra, and written then to preserve the understanding of the writing techniques used by local Arabs of that time and hence the meaning and hence the message. God thus fulfills his promise to save the message not only in the original text but also with these great books of grammar and lexicons which has preserved the original meanings and the writing techniques of the script of Qur'an utilised by the companions.
We should all try to utilise these books of lexicon and grammar and read the concepts of vowel and all other signs as gezm, teshdeed etc again and again. Once we are clear in our minds, we all should join hands and pick each and every word of Qur'an and try to confirm the meaning utilising the above tecnique. I feel that a lot of words in the Holy Book are compound words, joining multiple words and not just one word as may appear by the script tecnique. Thus breaking them down into each of those words will become critical before we can actually understand the meaning. A simple example is Alhamdu Lillah. Here every one will agree that Al is a separate word, although written and zipped together, indicated by a Gezm at the end of Al, meaning of which separately is THE. Alhamdu is therefore not one word, but a compound word made up of more than one word, but written together as it was the writing technique of that time. It is this concept of writing technique and hence decoding and unzipping all words, so to say, in it, is important towards our understanding. This can be clarified with the help of these great translations of previous Arab Lexical and Grammar scholars. Those who are lucky and can read and understand the original lexicon and grammar books from where these translations are done may do so in the original language as they are all available on line. We can then analyze all words and make sure we have done everything in our power to understand the message of our Creator without any doubt and disagreement. Effort at understanding is all we can do. This could be a great project for a dedicated team to join hands and analyze each and every word and see if we can improve our understanding of this timeless message. handshake
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Thanks kn. I am glad you are culminating the understanding and prerequisites of understanding of language fast. This joining of hands is what my call has been about. To revive a langauge that is no more spoken and written by natives is not one man job. We need lots of hands with lots of dedication.
Sis, samia thanks again for your reply. I will get back to issue of Teshdeed later. But let me pick your brain on another issue. Is your understanding about Tenwin, that it is applied over last alphabet of a word or there are any exceptions to this rule? Thanks in advance.
Badar
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Is your understanding about Tenwin, that it is applied over last alphabet of a word or there are any exceptions to this rule? Thanks in advance.
Badar
So far I haven't seen a tanween in the middle of a word. Have you or any one else? If not, then yes, it's a rule.
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Thanks Sis again, this is what I learned so far while learning grammar. But than what would you about this word
Thanks.
Badar
This is an issue of writing not grammar.Here is how grammarians explain it
The pronunciation is a main aspect of the tanween, which is a final nuun with a sukuun. The alif r alif maqsuura (as the above case) do not show any pronunciation for any short vowel, and thus are considered like letters carrying a sukuun. In Arabic you cannot have two consecutive sukuuns, otherwise it would be difficult or rather impossible to pronounce this combination. That's why in these to cases the tanween is conveniently put immediately after the last short vowel which is usually carried on the letter before last. This is merely convenience to make a pronunciation possible.If you make the alif maqsuura an extra alif carrying the tanween, the resulting pronunciation is the same
(both pronounced as "huda"
(both pronounced as hudan)
and is the same also for the word (stick)Here is the grammarians definition of the tanween
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Definition of tanween It's a nuun carrying a sukuun, situated at the end of a word from a pronunciation prespective and not a spelling prespective.
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Thanks Sister,
I have now checked that it occurred for 29 times in Quran, denoting rather distinct and peculiar meanings, "then; in that case; resultantly; the sequal"
Lane [Page 41 Vol 1} It denotes a response, or reply, corroborating a condition.........
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Dear Sister your response raises several issues that need discussion and clarification.
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Tajweed can not be just equated to correct recitation. As a mater of fact all languages develop as spoken language first. The scripts are developed later to preserve spoken language. Hence the need to preserve as close to spoken language in script, so by creating sounds close to a given spoken language, one can understand same meanings as originally intended. Otherwise there could be no purpose of making sounds as close to spoken, originally. Hence purpose of Tajweed should be understood in this context. This to convey proper meaning of words by reading the script.
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As for Tewin to just say it for making sounds or facilitate pronunciation could not be the only purpose. Furthermore, all translation of Arabic works of Grammar. This includes William Wright, Fisher, Palmar and Lutuf ur Rehman from Quran College in Lahore Pakistan agree. That Tewins are used to decline nouns. In this situation it is applied over last word. Grammatically and orthographically these are Tenwin of Fetha Accusative or in Arabic Nsab, Tenwin of Duma Nominative or in Arabic Rafa and Tenwin of Kesra Genitive or in Arabic Jer.
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Tenwins are placed on final alphabet of a word, I have found no exceptions so far.
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Tenwin of Fetha is followed by an Alif, but does not add any to meaning to the word.
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Hence keeping these in mind word . root can not be but it should be .
6 However, question remains why a was preferred in script over an Alif to follow a Tenwin of Fetha in this case?
- More on Tenwin later.
- Comments welcome.
Badar
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Dear Sister your response raises several issues that need discussion and clarification.
- Tajweed can not be just equated to correct recitation. As a mater of fact all languages develop as spoken language first. The scripts are developed later to preserve spoken language. Hence the need to preserve as close to spoken language in script, so by creating sounds close to a given spoken language, one can understand same meanings as originally intended. Otherwise there could be no purpose of making sounds as close to spoken, originally. Hence purpose of Tajweed should be understood in this context. This to convey proper meaning of words by reading the script.
Allow me to disagree with you here. To preserve as close to spoken langage in script one has to believe first that the script was revealed in a spoken language. This is not the undersanding of Arabic grammarians who invented classical Aabc and tashkeel (hardly found in any spoken Arabic). The proof is that Arabic grammar rules are often diregarded in the language of the qur'aan. Moreover, no spoken Arabic I know of apply any of the rules of Tajweed. Tajweed is an extra compilcation to the language, applied only to qur'aan. Why? If it conveys proper meaning, it would have been applied to hadith, e.g. If we can understand hadith and classical poetry in their far from beautiful language without tajweed, we can defintely undersand the qur'aan without it.
- As for Tewin to just say it for making sounds or facilitate pronunciation could not be the only purpose. Furthermore, all translation of Arabic works of Grammar. This includes William Wright, Fisher, Palmar and Lutuf ur Rehman from Quran College in Lahore Pakistan agree. That Tewins are used to decline nouns. In this situation it is applied over last word. Grammatically and orthographically these are Tenwin of Fetha Accusative or in Arabic Nsab, Tenwin of Duma Nominative or in Arabic Rafa and Tenwin of Kesra Genitive or in Arabic Jer.
I do not know who says tanween is to facilitate pronunciaation; I do not any way. And yes there are tanweens of declination and nomination, but they are hardly used in the spoken language. In most spoken dialects, there are some words which are usually only pronounced with tanween fat7a such as ithan; jiddan (very); ghadan (tomorrow); 7alan (immediately); qaT3an (sure)....I do not know of words in the spoken language where the tanweens of declination and nomination are used, not in my dialect at least.
- Tenwin of Fetha is followed by an Alif, but does not add any to meaning to the word.
Not nececessarily. Words ending in taa marbuuta; isolated hamza; alif maqsuura; original alif or alif with a hamza do not carry an extra alif and have the tanween above the final alphabet, for example
I agree with you that it does not add to the meaning, but it's more for emphasis.
- Hence keeping these in mind word . root can not be but it should be .
6 However, question remains why a was preferred in script over an Alif to follow a Tenwin of Fetha in this case?
Point 5 is not correct, hence your wondering in point 6. The alif maqsuura is never an extra letter. It is not part of the letters that change the pattern of a word or are affixed/suffixed/prefixed to the root to have a new pattern. The only extra alif (or maybe it's the origine?!!) is the alif maqsuura to make an adjective feminine, exactly like the taa marbutta, as in akbar (m) kubraa (f)
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Allow me to disagree with you here. To preserve as close to spoken langage in script one has to believe first that the script was revealed in a spoken language. This is not the undersanding of Arabic grammarians who invented classical Aabc and tashkeel (hardly found in any spoken Arabic).
Sister, by using word SCRIPT, I was not implying great reading/Alkitab itself. There is no doubt the book was revealed in the spoken language of people prophet's time. This spoken langauge could have been only preserved by writting, using a form of script of writting. This the vary written script that we have today with us. There is nobody who anymore speaks or even writes this language any more. If I understood you correctly you are acknowledging this fact as well.
I agree Tajweed as promoted and understood today is complete distraction for understanding the Alkitab.
Hence keeping these in mind word . root can not be but it should be .
Why can not a here indicate a personal pronoun following ? in accusative case i.e, with tenwin of fetha.Badar
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Hence keeping these in mind word . root can not be but it should be .
Why can not a here indicate a personal pronoun following ? in accusative case i.e, with tenwin of fetha.Badar
Good! We are agreeing more and more!
What do you mean by a personal pronoun? Is it as in "my hud" (i.e possessive pronoun)? If so, this personal pronoun is a yaa , not alif maqsuura , thus would have been not .
Moreover, (again assuming you mean a possesive pronoun), the first part of an idafa construct never carries a tanween, even if the whole construct is indefiniteWhy do you suggest that this word hud is a two-lettered-rooted one?
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Sis sorry for belated response. I had to be away to fulfill a personal commitment. What is your understanding/defination of Tajweed. Are you implying that purpose of all Harkaat is just for Tajweed i.e., to faciltate correct pronunciation only and they do not impart/add meanings to consonant based roots.
Badar
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My understanding of tajweed is that it's one artificial way of "reading" the qur'aan. Tashkeel is not mainly for tajweed, but it's another artificial tool, not indespensible for comprehending. Broadcasters make many "tashkeel" mistakes, but few people pay attention to that, and it does not make their message incomprehensible. Also, all Arabic speakers who can read books, newspapers, magazines...etc which have no tashkeel, read them and still understand them, and they would wrongly read the vocalization of the qur'aan, (the only document in Arabic that's fully vocalized), and still understand it. tashkeel can be useful to direct a word towards a specific meaning when the context may not show its meaning; but can also be exploited to draw a word away from its real meaning to impose on the reader another meaning.
Tajweed shows some vocalization that's unaccepted by the rules of vocalization, such as "shadda on an initial letter", but they do not claim that it's grammar, but for the sake of helping the student of tajweed recognize where to assimilate two seperate words and make them sound like one. In grammar, this may happen, but the two words are considered, and written, as one word, such as in
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Respected Sister thanks for sharing your understanding of this issue. Also you are imlying that your mother tongue in one of the dialect of current spoken language. Let me humbly ask you this. What is the meaning of word . In your opinion does this word need any Harkaat to make it's meaning to be understood. If yes, what should be those Harkaat? Thanks again for your keen participation in discussion.
Badar
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Respected Sister thanks for sharing your understanding of this issue. Also you are imlying that your mother tongue in one of the dialect of current spoken language. Let me humbly ask you this. What is the meaning of word . In your opinion does this word need any Harkaat to make it's meaning to be understood. If yes, what should be those Harkaat? Thanks again for your keen participation in discussion.
Badar
You're welcome.
There are two different kinds of "harakaat short vowels"
- Those which form part of the word for example the damma and sukuun on one and the two fat-ha on the other and . These vowels are respected in all spoken and written dialects because they affect the very meaning of the word. They are the counterparts of the short vowels in any other language (just as in sun and son).
- Grammatical vocalization, usually at the end of the word, and without which the meaning of the word is not affected, e.g and (the book, for all three words). They are normally neglected in the spoken language, except for a few words emphasized with tanween such as "shukran"; "3afwan"...
- There's, however, another kind which falls between the two the one linked to mrphology, and which,then, forms part of the word and is therefore not neglected in the spoken language such as (accuser) and (accused).
For the word , if it's just written, it could be either ablution or two words and light, and thus would mean and light. The spoken is not different from the written, since the difference here is essential vocalization and not grammatical one,i.e, if it's pronounced, one would know whether it's "ablution" or "and light".
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Thanks again, sister, for detailed answer. I am glad that now I may be able to high light the issue with language by example. The with Harkaat will only be interperated as ablution "an act of cleaning", a verb, as this is common understanding. It is written with Teskeel as . However, if we look up Lane's lexicon he is translating from authentic arabic sources as this word non-exsistent in classical Arabic, though found in many tradition. Instead a word with fetha did exsist, a inf. noun, meaning he was or became fair, beautiful, neat. Furthermore, the measure deviates from constant rule in this case. Hence, to imply that speakers of modren spoken language would understand Alkitab without proper teshkeel, seem far fetched. Yes, they will only understand the meanings of words that are prevalent at their time. In addition with out teskeel in Quran, there will be no way to get to correct meanings, specially when meanings can change so much by changing one sign of teskeel.
Lane's page
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000199.pdf
Furthermore, to say that ending harkaat have no meanings in or in any other word, is not correct either. Please pay attention to meaning "it was done", expressing an action, depending upon or proceeding from some one, resulting in a certain condition. Tenweens are vowels for nouns. Tenween of Fetha indicating objective, expressing state or condition. Tenween of Kesra, genitive or dependent, on the preceeding word. Tenween of Duma , nominative or accusative, in which form alone it can act as agent to a verb. However, when definate article is added to a noun it loses tenween and vowel becomes coressponding single vowel sign of Fetha, Kesra or Duma, while retaining corresponding meanings. However, verbs have single vowels signs, adding same meanings like examplified in .
Pleas consider above.
Badar
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The with Harkaat will only be interperated as ablution "an act of cleaning", a verb, as this is common understanding. It is written with Teskeel as .
- What do you mean by "interpreted as ablution"?
- Who writes it like this ?
This word does not even exist in the qur'aan so you cannot say that "harakaat" is essential or not to understand it. Moreover, the context will dictate what "harakat" to apply, not the other way round.
What's the missing letter in the word between brackets in each of these two sentences
My "sxn" is in 6th grade.
I love the "sxn"?Furthermore, to say that ending harkaat have no meanings in or in any other word, is not correct either. Please pay attention to meaning "it was done", expressing an action, depending upon or proceeding from some one, resulting in a certain condition. Tenweens are vowels for nouns. Tenween of Fetha indicating objective, expressing state or condition. Tenween of Kesra, genitive or dependent, on the preceeding word. Tenween of Duma , nominative or accusative, in which form alone it can act as agent to a verb. However, when definate article is added to a noun it loses tenween and vowel becomes coressponding single vowel sign of Fetha, Kesra or Duma, while retaining corresponding meanings. However, verbs have single vowels signs, adding same meanings like examplified in .
BadarWhat type of the following kinds of harakaat would you apply to your example? Please refer to my post when reponding to what I wrote. At least I would know what you misunderstood
There are two different kinds of "harakaat short vowels"
- Those which form part of the word for example the damma and sukuun on one and the two fat-ha on the other and . These vowels are respected in all spoken and written dialects because they affect the very meaning of the word. They are the counterparts of the short vowels in any other language (just as in sun and son).
- Grammatical vocalization, usually at the end of the word, and without which the meaning of the word is not affected, e.g and (the book, for all three words). They are normally neglected in the spoken language, except for a few words emphasized with tanween such as "shukran"; "3afwan"...
- There's, however, another kind which falls between the two the one linked to mrphology, and which,then, forms part of the word and is therefore not neglected in the spoken language such as (accuser) and (accused).
If you speak of grammatical "harakaat" and support your argument with examples from essential morphology harakaat, your conclusion is definitely invalid. I do not need harakaat to understand who the agent or patient in such a sentence
, and do not need a lesson in grammar to know that "muttaham" is dfferent from "muttahim".You cannot come up with an example showing that grammar tashkeel/harakaat is indispensible. This is a late invention that lacks originality, and just could not stick. Native speakers are the worst when it comes to applying grammar harakat (from my experience), and they still make themselves understood.