Congregational Salat?
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Maybe it's talking about the Sabbath (Shabbat) observance...? Or maybe it doesn't matter, since it's not specified. Perhaps you can hold this "day of assembly" any day of the week, and the specific day is not as important as the practice itself...
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Maybe it's talking about the Sabbath (Shabbat) observance...? Or maybe it doesn't matter, since it's not specified. Perhaps you can hold this "day of assembly" any day of the week, and the specific day is not as important as the practice itself...
Peace Ahmad Bilal,
Thats what I was thinking, but needed some imput from others that have more insight.
God Bless,
Kadeen -
Thanks!
I only see topics on the calendar and Ramadan. Maybe I dont see it.
I was not referring to any particular thing, just that you may wish to study this angle. You can read about it here for example
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12309.msg96387#msg96387Not saying it is correct, but simply a possibility to consider in your studies.
The quality of discussion done on the forum about many topics has been very detailed, and I can appreciate as a new member you may not be familiar with it, but I can assure you, these discussions are worthy of study. I recommend to all the use of the search function. I also use it regularly. -
I was not referring to any particular thing, just that you may wish to study this angle. You can read about it here for example
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12309.msg96387#msg96387Not saying it is correct, but simply a possibility to consider in your studies.
The quality of discussion done on the forum about many topics has been very detailed, and I can appreciate as a new member you may not be familiar with it, but I can assure you, these discussions are worthy of study. I recommend to all the use of the search function. I also use it regularly.Ahh..Thanks! I will check it out.
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Peace Wakas!
Ive read the exact post you linked to and the entire thread and the observations on it referring to The Gathering/aka hajj/feast/gathering and not to any particular day of the week etc, makes alot of since.And it appears,Im rethinking my belief in 2 salat times again,instead of 3,even though the Tanakh speaks of 3 too.. hmm
God Bless!
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Peace be upon you,
It is easy to do the things you are suppossed to do when you are alone or with like minded people...but when you are out in social situations, social GATHERINGS, one tends to put off thier obligations for another time.
So when you are at gatherings (at the time of gathering) do not forget to maintain salaat, then go back to the gathering.
This is about real life situations.
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Peace,
The Quran is to telling us to uphold or observe this time of social gathering (yawmul-jumu'at) it is only saying that when we find ourselves in such social gatherings, and it is time for prayer that we go pray. That is as far as I see it being taken.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace to all,
The Quran is to telling us to uphold or observe this time of social gathering (yawmul-jumu'at) it is only saying that when we find ourselves in such social gatherings, and it is time for prayer that we go pray. That is as far as I see it being taken.
I formerly held this same view. Now, however, I'm starting to question this... The Qur'aan is speaking of a specific day, not any random day of observing salaat. Also, it tells the worshipers to "drop all business" on this day, and it never mentions returning to the day's business. In fact, it's rejects this, condemning those who return to work after the salaat to perform business deals. Therefore, after the observance, this is a day dedicated to worshiping G-d and 'resting' from work, just like the Jewish shabbat. In this passage (629), the words "al-salaat min yawmi al-jumu'at" looks like they can be taken as referring to Friday AND the day of assembly, or even the day of assembly on Friday. This would also coincide with the Jewish shabbat, which, depending on the group and culture, fall on Friday after sunrise, on Thursday night through Friday evening, or on Friday night through Saturday evening.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace to all,
I formerly held this same view. Now, however, I'm starting to question this... The Qur'aan is speaking of a specific day, not any random day of observing salaat. Also, it tells the worshipers to "drop all business" on this day, and it never mentions returning to the day's business. In fact, it's rejects this, condemning those who return to work after the salaat to perform business deals. Therefore, after the observance, this is a day dedicated to worshiping G-d and 'resting' from work, just like the Jewish shabbat.
Peace,Ahmad
Exactly in the next verse (6210) it says
"Once the prayer is completed, you may spread through the land to seek GOD's bounties, and continue to remember GOD frequently, that you may succeed."
This shows that it is not for the whole day. It is in the middle of the day, and once it's completed, one may continue to work, trade, play soccer or whatever.
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Peace,
Exactly in the next verse (6210) it says
"Once the prayer is completed, you may spread through the land to seek GOD's bounties, and continue to remember GOD frequently, that you may succeed."
This shows that it is not for the whole day. It is in the middle of the day, and once it's completed, one may continue to work, trade, play soccer or whatever.
Again, you're WRONG. Where does the passage tell us to return to work or trade, or to finish our normal activities? Instead of saying this, it tells us to "seek G-d's bounties", which does not include trade and work. In fact, the next passage after the verse you cited says
When some of them come across a business deal or some entertainment, they rush to it and leave you standing. Say, "What G-d possesses is far greater than the entertainment or the business. G-d is the best provider." (62111)
Now, since the preceding verse is talking about AFTER the congregational observance, then so is this one. The people were reprimanded for focusing on business deals and entertainment AFTER the congregational salaat. Therefore, we are adversely advised NOT to commit these same offenses. In other words, the day of the congregational salaat is a day of "rest", just like the Jewish shabbat. Apparently, it starts in the midday, and it lasts throughout the rest of the day...
Peace,
Ahmad
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you may spread through the land to seek GOD's bounties
what do you not understand about that?!
it clearly shows that there is a big portion of the day left, since we can spread through the land...
numerous people (even 3 salaat theorists) agree with this. check marwan boustany's site for example.
And btw...what do you mean i am wrong AGAIN?
please clarify,
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@ Ahmad
About the "what God ... is far greater than business" ( i didnt get the exact quote)
This is stating that we should LEAVE OFF BUSINESS IN ORDER TO GO TO CONGREGATIONAL PRAYER We should be occupied with business during the time of prayer not the day itself. Otherwise the "seek gods bounties" and the above quoted verse would contradict.
Peace
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Peace,
It does not suprise me that Ahmed and Ayman prefer to read the observance of a Judaic Sabbath day into the Quran. This is both of you guys' sunnah. For Ahmed it is all about the Hebrews and for Ayman it is all about what the "People of the book" thought or did in the past. Do as you please. I strongly disagree (and I think the reasons behind my disagreement are plainly obvious and logical), but I respect your right to hold an opinion and to make your own conclusions. I do not wish to discuss this however, because i have wasted many words trying to work through topics with people who will defend what they have come to believe, tooth and nail. Call it arrogance, call it ignorance, call it stubborness or call it just good sense, but I do not share your opinions on this topic. Peace.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
It does not suprise me that Ahmed and Ayman prefer to read the observance of a Judaic Sabbath day into the Quran. This is both of you guys' sunnah. For Ahmed it is all about the Hebrews and for Ayman it is all about what the "People of the book" thought or did in the past. Do as you please. I strongly disagree (and I think the reasons behind my disagreement are plainly obvious and logical), but I respect your right to hold an opinion and to make your own conclusions. I do not wish to discuss this however, because i have wasted many words trying to work through topics with people who will defend what they have come to believe, tooth and nail. Call it arrogance, call it ignorance, call it stubborness or call it just good sense, but I do not share your opinions on this topic. Peace.
Godbless,
AnwarThats because there is no single answer. these arguments will continue till Kingdom come. Why can't we answer the way the website quranist.com answers it
Prayer
Refreshingly simple!
There is no right or wrong way to pray. Whether you are praying to God or some graven idol in truth you are still praying.
For those of us who are following the Quran, however it is impotant for us to be clear on what the Quran says on this.
So according to the Quran, we want to know if the following things are addressed in the Quran.
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How do we pray?
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What do we do when we pray?
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What do we say when we pray?
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When do we pray?
Traditionally in Islam there are 2 words used for this concept of praying. They are two Classical Arabic words;
Salat (Suh-lot) and Du'a (Do-aah).
Salat to the Muslim has prescribed sayings that are recited at particular moments in the prayer. It is an elaborate ritual that carries a lot of meaning and connections. It also has prescribed motions that are done in a certain order.
Du'a on the other hand only consists of raising your hands and offering up a particular prayer to God. The difference between Salat and Du'a to the Muslim is the difference between praying, or making prayer, and saying a prayer. Praying, or making Prayer, to the Muslim is merely a ritual that is more of an actual display of devotion, whereas du'a, or saying a prayer, to the Muslim is the equivalent of making a speech (whether prepared or improvised) to God with a goal in mind.
Despite what this means to the Muslim, from a purely language perspective, without religious doctrine, in Classical Arabic, the difference between the two is this
Salat Prayer in the sense of making one-on-one time with your god or gods whoever they may be.
Dua 'To call on, to call out to or to beckon.' It does not have to be connected to any god just as whoever you call on does not have to be a god in your eyes. However, du'a in its connection to prayer has come to be used in the sense of oratories or speeches that are directed to a god, and specifically God, in Islamic Arabic and modern Arabics.
The Arab Jews & Christians of old and today have always called their Prayer Salat despite the fact that Muslims would like to monopolize this Classical Arabic term.
Salat and Du'a can overlap. Every time we say a prayer (du'a) we are making prayer, or praying (Salat). And most times whenever we are making prayer or praying (salat) we are also calling out (du'a) to God, calling on God or beckoning God. You are entitled to just have a conversation with God, think on His glory or greatness or just try to feel the blessings or holiness that God may bestow on you. You don't have to be calling out to God whenever you make time to meditate on Him.
The Koran only mentions praying twice a day; in the morning and in the evening. These times are the only ones specifically mentioned when it comes to prayer and every other time where Salat is mentioned can be deduced to these 2 times. Morning prayer is done in the late part of the night that is directly before sunrise, morning twilight or at sunrise. Evening prayer is done at the onset of sunset, evening twilight or the very early part of the night that is directly after evening twilight.
"Asalatul-Wustaa" that is mentioned in the Koran (223 can be rendered as "The Middle Prayer", 'The Best Prayer." or even "The Moderate Prayer." Following the principles of 413 and 37, to be clarified 2238 has to be related to a more precise passage about this same subject. There is no noon prayer or afternoon prayer ever mentioned in the Quran.
Prayer times are specified in the Koran such as 'The prayer of dawn' in (245, and 'the evening prayer' in (245 and the book specifies these times as the edges of daylight, within the times of complete darkness and when the sun is touching (or rubbing) the horizon (11114, 177. The Koran does advise praising God and giving him glory in the middle of the day with the phrase 'sub-haan allahee . . .wa heena tudh-hiroona' or 'give God the glory . . . when you find yourselves in middle of the day' (301, but are we restricted to praising God in the middle of the day? When God tells us to glorify him when he blesses us in someway should we stop right then, drop everything get on our knees and pray? Glorifying God is mentioned many times in the Quran and all of these instances aren't connected to prayer? It's a little extreme to think that just because God says to remember to glorify Him in the middle of the day that we are suppose to drop everything and go make some personal time with God, right then. Look at 6828-29 to get a more rational picture.
As for how to pray . . .this is summed up in a few passages. The Muslim reader should know that rak'at, which to the Muslim refers to a certain sequence of positions during Prayer, has different meaning in Classical Arabic. In Classical Arabic, it means any kneeling or bowing. Sujood to the Muslim refers to the prostrating that is done during the Muslim's prayer, but in Classical Arabic, the Arabic of Muhammad's day it refers to any prostration, however its primary meaning is any form of paying homage or respects which can be seen by the following passages 556, 234, 2218, 258. So here's how to pray from the Quran
243 "Pray! Do what is best and bow or kneel along with others who do the same."
We have an example of prayer with Mary 343 " Mary! Obey the Lord. Worship Him and bow, or kneel down, before Him with those who do the same."
555 "Your real supporters are God, His messenger(s) and His loyalists. His loyalists keep to prayer, doing what best, as they bow, or kneel down."
2277 "God's loyalists! Bow or kneel down, and worship God! Serve the Lord and do good so you can have success".
4829 "Muhammad is God's messenger and God's message is commendable. Those who are on the side of the messenger and his message will have strength when it comes to those who show no loyalty to the messenger and his message. They show mercy to one another, and Muhammad, you will see them bowing or kneeling down as they worship, asking for God's grace and approval. The signs of their worship show on their faces, and that is how they are referred to in Moses' teachings and in the teachings of Jesus . . ."
The Arabic word 'Qaa'im' in 339 does not dictate standing position during prayer. It implies the undertaking of any action, in addition to 'staying up late.' Even if understood to mean standing one can still stand and bow just as Muslims bow, stand up and then bow again or as others bow their heads while they stand in prayer. Zechariah may have been standing at that moment during his prayer but that does not mean that he was not bowing or kneeling the moment before, or that he wasn't bowing his head at that very moment. Since we weren't there the best conclusion that we can make is that he was in the action of praying. That is the most important aspect anyway.
The Qiblah; commonly reffered to as the direction of prayer actually means focal point, and that makes sense as you see that most Muslims point to it. However in Old Classical Arabic it is the convening point of gazes, moving objects, mental attention or the journeys of people or animals. The watering hole is a qiblah for thirsty animals and Mecca is a qiblah for Muslim pilgrims in their journey to the city. The direction that we face in prayer isn't even a matter of religious importance considering 2115. We also see in the Quran that God told Moses to tell his people, while in Egypt, to make their houses qiblahs.
Obviously, they weren't making their houses directions to pray towards but their communal focal-points, i.e. their community centers. Prayer is nowhere mentioned, nor is it in connection to what is usually translated as the Holy Masjid which really includes any respected or inviolable sanctuary. You can pray in whatever direction you choose.
Last but not least, there is nothing wrong with praying together. There is nothing wrong with praying the traditional Muslim way either, but it is not the only way to pray and it is not a superior way to pray. Praying with someone can range from praying shoulder to shoulder, doing and saying exactly the same thing at the same time, to holding each others hands, bowing heads; dedicating that time to God. The only uniform things that the Koran gives when it comes to prayer are the following
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Pray to God, The Most High.
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Kneel or bow before God, The Most High.
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Pray in the morning, right before or during daybreak.
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Pray in the evening, during sundown, dusk or right afterwards.
So that's it, plain and simple. So go connect with your lord, God!
He is greater!
http//www.quranists.com/prayer.html
There! Ain't that simple? Why all this endless arguments for?
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Peace Progressive1993,
This is stating that we should LEAVE OFF BUSINESS IN ORDER TO GO TO CONGREGATIONAL PRAYER We should be occupied with business during the time of prayer not the day itself. Otherwise the "seek gods bounties" and the above quoted verse would contradict.
Yes, there is a good portion of the day left. However, the scriptures do NOT tell us to go back to work or finish engaging in business dealings AFTER the observance. Rather, it implies that we should leave off business dealings FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE DAY so that we can concentrate on seeking G-d's bounties. Period. There's no mention of returning to business at all. This makes this day of observance very similar to the Jewish shabbat. Also, the Qur'aan never overrides the shabbat services, and the scriptures imply that the worshipers (who include the Jews and Nazarenes) are supposed to continue observing the shabbat. It is never discontinued... Therefore, the congregational observance would probably occur during the period of the middle (noon) salaat period, and afterwards, it would remain upon them until the next day's salaat at sunrise (morning). This could very well be considered a "day of rest", or an Islaamic shabbat/sabbath, which is the same system observed by Moses and the Jews...
Peace,
Ahmad
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@ Bigmo
You wrote that it is OK to pray to an idol... Are you serious?! You're going against thw very basic ideas of Islam and this forum - God ALONE!
@ Ahmad
I'm glad we at least agree that it starts at the middle of the day. BTW...u said "SCRIPTURES" (!!!)...I thought we are following Quran ALONE. Are u replacing the Hadith with the Torah?! Someone already commented on this (idk who) but he is right! Quran Alone, means Quran ALONE. There is no Sabbath in Islam like there is in Judaism. The congregational prayer is a working day as outlined in the scripture.
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@ Bigmo
You wrote that it is OK to pray to an idol... Are you serious?! You're going against thw very basic ideas of Islam and this forum - God ALONE!
@ Ahmad
I'm glad we at least agree that it starts at the middle of the day. BTW...u said "SCRIPTURES" (!!!)...I thought we are following Quran ALONE. Are u replacing the Hadith with the Torah?! Someone already commented on this (idk who) but he is right! Quran Alone, means Quran ALONE. There is no Sabbath in Islam like there is in Judaism. The congregational prayer is a working day as outlined in the scripture.
I pasted from the website. It does not say we should pray to idols, it said everybody prays even those who pray to idols. Its a strange observation for you to think that some Koranist website encourages idol worship.
