Encounter with a self called religious scholar

WayFinder

As far as the hadiths go. Let me ask you that if Hadiths were so important, why didnt Umar, Abu Bakr , Uthman or Ali have them written down. The Quran was codified in the Uthman codex and standardized. Why wasn't such meticulous care given to the Ahadith if they were so important? Obviously, the rightly guided caliphs had memorized the Quran but they still wrote it down for future generations, why did it take 300 years for Bukhari, Muslim et al to compile these contradictory hadiths?

Salaam brother,

This can be an interesting discussion but if you do not study your subject first, you will soon find yourself swimming in troubling waters... Look the part I highlighted in RED... This is taken from hadith! It is hadith which says that uthman collected and stardized the Quran and so on... Through my personal research, I have found that the Quran was already written and compiled in book form at the time of the messenger himself as he completed his mission...

You are looking for contradictory hadiths... Well, if you take the compilation of the Quran itself, you will find that all these hadiths firstly contradicts the Quran, as it says Quran was compiled by Uthman, some hadiths say Umar... And secondly these hadiths contradicts themselves within... You will find a good thread by Hafeez Kazi on this issue.

So my advice to you is... When you advocate your points, be sure to never ever used stuff which sprouted from hadiths books... Because you will put yourself into more trouble as things goes on... I got a similar problem in the beginning and eventually, they will ask you.. 'From where do you get this information.. it is not in the Quran! You are taking it from hadith...!' and things of the like...

So take care, do not be in a hurry to respond just because you have to respond or win the discussion... The picture is much bigger that this... It is about truth prevailing on falsehood.... So take time, and research your topics well before responding...

Since your guy seem to be a bukhari follower... As to what he is saying.. It seems that all what Bukhari collected went into some tough analysis and examination before being written and admitted in the book, so how does he explain that each year, scholars are still finding fabricated and false hadiths in his book... How come... It is obvious that he was not as meticulous as the guy want us to believe he was...

Hope my advice will benefit you...

Wassalaam

Bigmo

Salaam brother,

This can be an interesting discussion but if you do not study your subject first, you will soon find yourself swimming in troubling waters... Look the part I highlighted in RED... This is taken from hadith! It is hadith which says that uthman collected and stardized the Quran and so on... Through my personal research, I have found that the Quran was already written and compiled in book form at the time of the messenger himself as he completed his mission...

You are looking for contradictory hadiths... Well, if you take the compilation of the Quran itself, you will find that all these hadiths firstly contradicts the Quran, as it says Quran was compiled by Uthman, some hadiths say Umar... And secondly these hadiths contradicts themselves within... You will find a good thread by Hafeez Kazi on this issue.

So my advice to you is... When you advocate your points, be sure to never ever used stuff which sprouted from hadiths books... Because you will put yourself into more trouble as things goes on... I got a similar problem in the beginning and eventually, they will ask you.. 'From where do you get this information.. it is not in the Quran! You are taking it from hadith...!' and things of the like...

So take care, do not be in a hurry to respond just because you have to respond or win the discussion... The picture is much bigger that this... It is about truth prevailing on falsehood.... So take time, and research your topics well before responding...

Since your guy seem to be a bukhari follower... As to what he is saying.. It seems that all what Bukhari collected went into some tough analysis and examination before being written and admitted in the book, so how does he explain that each year, scholars are still finding fabricated and false hadiths in his book... How come... It is obvious that he was not as meticulous as the guy want us to believe he was...

Hope my advice will benefit you...

Wassalaam

Its wrong to say the hadiths contradict themselves. The Sunnis can say its not contradiction but abrogation. An earlier ruling was abrogated by a later ruling, like the hadiths that says do not right anything except the Koran they will say this was only regarding the publication of the hadiths but not private collection. The hadith that says we should rely only on the Koran they will say that the Koran itself obligated the Sunnah. The will say that these abrogation ended with the last days of the prophet when the Koran says "I have completed your deen", saying that after that no aborgation is allowed and that the Islamic state has been formulated. This is standard Sunni doctrine. Its aborogation you should focus on, not just the verses of the Koran against each other but also the Koran versus the previous scriptures. The Koran itself has different rulings regarding subjects but we do not believe they contradict each other but we see them as varieties depending on the situation. Justice is dynamic and not static but the principles are static.

WayFinder

Its wrong to say the hadiths contradict themselves. The Sunnis can say its not contradiction but abrogation. An earlier ruling was abrogated by a later ruling, like the hadiths that says do not right anything except the Koran they will say this was only regarding the publication of the hadiths but not private collection. The hadith that says we should rely only on the Koran they will say that the Koran itself obligated the Sunnah. The will say that these abrogation ended with the last days of the prophet when the Koran says "I have completed your deen", saying that after that no aborgation is allowed and that the Islamic state has been formulated. This is standard Sunni doctrine. Its aborogation you should focus on, not just the verses of the Koran against each other but also the Koran versus the previous scriptures. The Koran itself has different rulings regarding subjects but we do not believe they contradict each other but we see them as varieties depending on the situation. Justice is dynamic and not static but the principles are static.

Peace Bigmo,

The hadiths I wrote about in my earlier post is with regard to historical reports, and not implementation of islamic laws or detailing of them... Hadiths which report the very same fact/occurance in different ways from one another is forcefully contradictory as they cannot be affected by the abrogation issue... For example, a car accident occured, there is only ONE way which it happened and not multiple ways... Hence 1 person says the car came from right, the other says it came from left while the 3rd one says it came from above... This is not abrogation but contradictory report of a fact...

Hope I made myself clear.
Regards

Bigmo

Peace Bigmo,

The hadiths I wrote about in my earlier post is with regard to historical reports, and not implementation of islamic laws or detailing of them... Hadiths which report the very same fact/occurance in different ways from one another is forcefully contradictory as they cannot be affected by the abrogation issue... For example, a car accident occured, there is only ONE way which it happened and not multiple ways... Hence 1 person says the car came from right, the other says it came from left while the 3rd one says it came from above... This is not abrogation but contradictory report of a fact...

Hope I made myself clear.
Regards

The hadith about writing down from the prophet is also historic and not legal. Its what was written down thats legal and not the fact of writing them or not. What I meant is that if you see the arguments presented by Sunnis you will see that they rely on abrogation. If you are talking about different accounts of the same incident, this strenghthens their argument and not weakens them as they will say we can only question the details of this incident but not whether that incident occurred since we have more than one account about that incident. Its kind of like an evolutionary biologist saying there is no debate in science about whether evolution occurred but only what are the mechanism(natural selection) that evolution relied upon. This means that they are not willing to accept any questioning about evolution but just the mechanism. Different incidences actually strengthens their arguments. What you do not know is that these different accounts of the same incident are what Schacht refers to as the common link hadith. They appear as different accounts but their chain usually go back to the same sources. This is made to look like it was not fabricated but just minor details are disputed but the incident occurred because "multiple" sources witnessed it. Many times there was still a witness or two and usually these witnesses are the usual same names. Often later hadith will give a different account to strengthen the validity of that incident. Let me give u an example

A person comes and he says Khlaled's house was on fire.

A person said Khaled's house was on fire, another said Khaled's neighbour's house was on fire.

A person said Khaled and his neighbour's house were on fire.

Now these three hadiths vary, but they strengthen the argument that someone's house was on fire and it was either Khaled, his neighbour or both. We(the Sunnis will say) should not question whether Khaled or his neighbour's house was on fire since we have "multiple accounts" about this. But when you look at the chain of narrators, often you will see these "multipole accounts" go back to the same sources but they spread out after the 3rd or 4th narrator down the line.

belH

Hi Guys, here is a draft of the response I typed up. BelH thanks for the comment; i decided to add it to my response if that's fine with you.

Peace

You welcome;
I will be waiting for his reply to your email
Peace

smmirza

Salaam,
Thank you guys for all the responses. Here is the email I sent to this guy

Peace be unto you,
I appreciate you contunuing the conversation. I understand that you
are a busy man as am I. You seem to be receptive to logical and
rational arguments and you have good points. I understand how hard it
is for you to reject the hadith and sunnah but it is a bitter pill
that we must all swallow. We muslims can only be united under the
Quran alone. I firmly believe Allah when he says in the Quran that
"..And We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a

Guide, a Mercy...." 1689

"Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who
hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." 6114

" A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous(mubeen)
Book." 121

"..a detailed exposition of all things, and a guide and a mercy to any
such as believe."12111

The above verses are clear and not out of context. For us to argue
that we need something more besides the Quran would clearly be
challenging God's word. You cite verses 2129,2151,3164 and 622
and say the Prophet came to teach the book and wisdom. Here is
another verse; that does not fit your equating of wisdom with
sunnah/hadeeth
"....and the fact that He sent down to you the Book and Wisdom, for
your instruction. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is well
acquainted with all things. 2231
In the above verse the Quran has been referred to as Wisdom.

Here is another verse

And recite what is rehearsed to you in your homes, of the Signs of
Allah and His Wisdom for Allah understands the finest mysteries and
is well-acquainted (with them). 3334

Do the two above verses say anything about the wisdom of prophet
Muhammad? Rather it seems to me that the Quran is the book of Wisdom!
Moreover, the duty of Muhammad was to deliver the Quran and only the
Quran

Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make haste therewith.
It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it
But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated)
Nay more, it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear)
075.016-019

In the above verses, Muhammad himself is told to follow the Quran, not
to try explaining it. I hope these arguments cause you to reflect.
We follow Muhammad by following the Quran.
Muhammad himself could not have asked that hadiths be written down
since he was a prophet and could not disobey God's command
This is a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds.
And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name,
We should certainly seize him by his right hand,
And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart
69043-46

You say

The issue that the Sunnah divides us is not true because of the following
Being divided is a decree from Allah that has no way around. Read (1111.

Here is the verse 11118 and 11119
"If thy Lord had so willed, He could have made mankind one people but
they will not cease to dispute."
"Except those on whom thy Lord hath bestowed His Mercy and for this
did He create them and the Word of thy Lord shall be fulfilled "I
will fill Hell with jinns and men all together."

"Except those" are referred to in the Quran who are guided. Hence your
logic that men cannot be united under truth is false.

You say The purpose of Allah's guidance is to minimize differences
and not eliminate them. Where in the Quran do you find this
statement?

As far as the hadiths go. Let me ask you that if Hadiths were so
important, why didnt Umar, Abu Bakr , Uthman or Ali have them written
down. Why wasn't such meticulous care given to the Ahadith if they
were so important? Obviously, the rightly guided caliphs had spent a
long time with the prophet but they did not write down his sayings for
future generations, why did it take 300 years for Bukhari, Muslim et
al to compile these contradictory hadiths and attribute them to
prophet Muhammad? These are hard questions that I did not have an
answer to. We cannot let our pride and ego get in the way of
searching for the truth. I will not discuss the ahadiths attributed
to prophet Muhammad because they detract from the greatness of the
prophet Muhammad. You attest to the photographic memory, intelligence
and honesty of Bukhari as if you personally met him. In either case,
Bukhari, Muslim et all were not there when prophet Muhammad spoke the
words they wrote down and you were not there either. Such things are
heresy and Allah warns us in the Quran
"Do not follow that of which you have no knowledge. Indeed the ear,
the eye, and the heart each will be questioned." (1736)

The reason I believe that the Quran is not corrupted is because, God
promised to preserve it. Did God make a similar promise for the
hadith? I hope these questions will cause you to reflect. i do not
claim to have all the answers but i am making an attempt to get to the
truth. The sunnah as we follow it, may or may not be what prophet
muhammad did. We can never be sure. you mention that there is
consistency in the way muslims pray across the world. That is true
but all these Muslims learned it from their ancestors who ultimately
learned everything from a small group of people in Arabia. The
standing, bowing and prostrating are all mentioned in the Quran but
there is no such number of rakaah and so it is left up to the
individual. We can continue to pray the 24434 format if it pleases us
but to say this is what God mandated is going overboard. The quran
does not mandate 5 prayers and if it does please show me the relevant
verses. You can pray 7 times but again making the 5 prayers
compulsory as if they have been sanctioned by God is wrong. God
does not mention details about civil and criminal issues because again
he has given us liberty to make decisions. There is a reason he has
gifted us with a mind. All the verses I have used to support my
arguments are clear verses and not taken out of context.
You say I will claim to be right because I am following the main

stream and you are wrong because you and the people who share the same
thoughts or follow the same methodology (the terrorists) are a small
minority but they are one of the big obstacles hindering the main
stream from progressing towards sharing the guidance of Allah with

others. In your first email you tried scaring me by saying I will be
in trouble in the hereafter and in this email you try comparing me to
terrorists. I would not expect such bully tactics from a learned man
such as yourself. These allegations do not help with the discussion.
Here is what God says about the mainstream
"Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead
thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture
they do nothing but lie." 6116
Incidentally most(maybe all?) of the terrorists follow hadiths to the
letter hence them giving up their lives for the magical 72 virgins in
heaven according to a hadith which I am sure you could dig up.

As far as you accusing me on the day of judgement. I only wish to
motivate other Muslims to find the truth out from themselves and break
the shackles of Bukhari, Muslim and other so called scholars that have
imprisoned us for so long. In the words of Thomas Jefferson"I swear
upon the altar of God, eternal hostility to every form of tyranny over
the mind of man."
God bless,
Said Mirza

WayFinder

Salaam Mirza

This email is really a nice one and will give the brother quite some stuff to think about... I want to tell you something about my approach...

If the guys ask me if I reject hadith or not... I tell them I do follow hadith... I do not reject them... But I only follow hadiths which Allah has preserved in his book... Maybe they are not aware but the words which came out from the mouth of the Messenger are recorded VERBATIM in the Quran and preserved,protected by Allah... These are the true and authentic hadiths which no one can reject... And show them these verses as example...

2189 They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back It is virtue if ye fear God. Enter houses through the proper doors And fear God That ye may prosper.

2215 They ask thee what they should spend (In charity). Say Whatever ye spend that is good, is for parents and kindred and orphans and those in want and for wayfarers. And whatever ye do that is good, - God knoweth it well.

2217 They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

2219 They ask you concerning fighting in the Sacred Months (i.e. 1st, 7th, 11th and 12th months of the Islamic calendar). Say, "Fighting therein is a great (transgression) but a greater (transgression) with Allah is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allah, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah), and to drive out its inhabitants, and Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islamic Monotheism) if they can. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever."

2220 (Their bearings) on this life and the Hereafter. They ask thee concerning orphans. Say "The best thing to do is what is for their good; if ye mix their affairs with yours, they are your brethren; but God knows the man who means mischief from the man who means good. And if God had wished, He could have put you into difficulties He is indeed Exalted in Power, Wise."

2222 They ask thee concerning women's courses. Say They are a hurt and a pollution So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by God. For God loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.

18109 Say "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."

What is comes after the command SAY are the words which came out from the mouth of the messenger... this is hadith. True hadith... in which there can be no doubt... We do not reject the hadith of the prophet but we reject the fabrications and falsehood they attached to him long after his death..

Wassalaam

smmirza

So basically the guy replied back saying I did not know anything since he was a scholar and I was not. Arrogance at its finest. No point in replying back to him because his mind is shuttered. Here is his reply

AA

Okay my brother. I guess we reach to the conclusion of cooperating on what we agree on and tolerate each other on what we disagree on.

I just want to emphasize that terrorism results from the approach that you are taking. The 72 virgins Hadeeth is sound, but terrorists don't need this Hadeeth to misguide them, they can be easily be misguided by (3169 & 3195 & 474-6). The terrorists are misguided because they do cut and paste. If we go to the Ahadeeth of the Prophet that you want to ignore, we find articles that restrict martyrdom only to those who die in a just war. Then you follow the link of what is a just war to find the Prophet putting the following conditions

Legal war declared by a legitimate head of state approved by Shura council
Last resort after the failure of every other means and after the enemy rejects all choices
Military targets only. Civilian targets are not permitted
No killing of those who are not carrying weapons whether they are young men, or women and children. This particular condition is also in the Koran in (2190)
Decision of war is based on idealism and moral values, not based on materialism and strategic interests

The prophet didn?t use hands at all in Makkah, even though there were lots of idles in Kabah and lots of night clubs because he didn?t have a state. He didn?t resort to assassination or terrorism. He didn?t retaliate in face of persecution and he ordered the companions not to retaliate as well. This is all from the Sunnah that you want to ignore.

The problem with Bin Laden and Zawahri that they are not scholars; Bin Laden is a civil engineer and Zawahri is a medical doctor. Neither they or you have the knowledge and skills to collect articles of Koran and Sunnah related to specific subject, sort them in the degree of authentication and drive a fatwa from a common denominator weighed by the degree of authentication and relevance of meanings to the topic of Fatwa. This is what is called Fiqh in Sharia terminology, which is an Arabic word that means precise and accurate understanding. This is why Dr. Qaradawi, bin Othaymeen, Azhar, ?etc denounced 911. It is a direct violation of the conditions of just war and add on the top of it that it is an act of vigilantism. The Prophet prohibited vigilantism, which leads that you take the laws in your hands without being a legitimate government official. Now, all these details are from the Sunnah that you want to ignore.

May Allah give mercy to Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, ?etc, that the entire Muslim Omah has testified to their scholarship and integrity. I didn?t meet neither them nor the Prophet but I accept the testimony of the entire Muslim Omah that saw them.

Salam

belH

Peace Smmirza

I want to comment in some issues (please feel free to use my reply in your debate with the Bukkari Scholar)

I just want to emphasize that terrorism results from the approach that you are taking. The 72 virgins Hadeeth is sound, but terrorists don't need this Hadeeth to misguide them, they can be easily be misguided by (3169 & 3195 & 474-6). The terrorists are misguided because they do cut and paste.

The above was related to his first comment in his previous email when He stated

Begin Quote
Allah has to kind of text in the Koran (37)
i. One kind is the text written in a perfectly understandable Arabic language that means only one thing and no one can argue about its meaning
ii. The second kind intended by Allah is vague and hard to determine one meaning for. Allah made it in such away as a source of misguidance to the ones who have sickness in their heart as he clearly stated in (37)
End Quote

Here how I understand it

When reading the Quran, any one can be confused and become misguided if does not ably a very important rule What are the DECISIVE Verses, and what are the ALLEGORICAL ones?

(&#1639

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical (not of well-established meaning), seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding (3- 7).

In the previous Quranic verse, and many other verses, God warns people from following verses in the Quran that were revealed to give the prophet certain guidance in a specific situation. But once the situation ends, the special guidance should not be followed, but the original one?the decisive?becomes the law.

The Quran commandment, as in the ten commandments of the Old Testament, is ?you shall not kill except in certain conditions that are given in the Quran?.
6-151. Say "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from" Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.

The Quranic conditions in which killing is tolerable?The decisive verses.

1- Eye for an Eye
2-178. O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.

2-Self-defense

2-190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
2-194. The prohibited month for the prohibited month,- and so for all things prohibited,- there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, Transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.

Therefore the Hadith He quoted in regard to fighting

If we go to the Ahadeeth of the Prophet that you want to ignore, we find articles that restrict martyrdom only to those who die in a just war. Then you follow the link of what is a just war to find the Prophet putting the following conditions

Legal war declared by a legitimate head of state approved by Shura council
Last resort after the failure of every other means and after the enemy rejects all choices
Military targets only. Civilian targets are not permitted
No killing of those who are not carrying weapons whether they are young men, or women and children. This particular condition is also in the Koran in (2190)
Decision of war is based on idealism and moral values, not based on materialism and strategic interests

This Hadith is the type of hadith that is aligned with Quran; therefore, I agree with its teachings.

Therefore, if we use the Quran as a measure to differentiate between the good hadith and bad hadith, then all moslem will be united; and that is what you should be emphasizing when debating with him.

I think the next step to corner this guy is to open the subject of Stoning to Death Vs 100 lashes as a punishment for Zina. In this issue, this Guy will have no other choice but to reveal his true dark side (He will have to disbelieve in Quranic verses if he accepts that Stoning to Death is a divine Punshment.

Peace

WayFinder

Peace BelH

You outlined some important stuff here.. However, on the stoning issue, the guy will surely tell us that hadith is WAHY and part of hidden revelation..

Wasalaam

belH

Peace BelH

You outlined some important stuff here.. However, on the stoning issue, the guy will surely tell us that hadith is WAHY and part of hidden revelation..

Wasalaam

Peace
If he would say that, then his dark side that he is trying to hide will be exposed. Then He will become an easy meat to fry by Quran.
Good Bless