The Prayer Issue Revived

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

--deleted--

c0de

JK- It depends on how they humilate me. If anyone humilaiates me personally Ill strike back hard too. If they dumilaiate me intellectually then i know of no such humiliation. I will continue to give my arguments and then every individual has to decide for him/herself what is more reasonable.

JK- You shldnt have "mercy" on me either. Ill tackle each point as much as i can and like i said many times before the audience will decide who has the better arguments in the end anyways.

Unlike you, I could care less about the "audience"

JK- What your doing is again "appeal to aiuthority". Why dont you bring up the relvant points here and we will discuss them? I told you before im convinced of my points like im convinced that i exist. Now you or anyone else could change that. Im open to everything. Also let other people on the forum witness those points of discussion.

)

rriite... I've seen how "open" you are. Most of the stuff I have said you haven't even understood. Instead you just keep repeating things over and over again like a machine and think the "audience" is will think you actually have a point.

JK- Your point makes as much sense as claiming GOD can create a rock which he Himself cannot lift. Can He do that in your understanding?

No actually, that is your point not mine. Clearly you didnt understand my previous response to you.

If not then Hes not all powerful by your definition.

God can do anything, even create another God if He so chooses.

Verses 617-18 Declare God's Omnipotence and Omniscience

If you want to get that fine on definitions then may i ask you WHERE IN THE QURAN does GOD say that He is all powerful?

In many places, actually. And now we are really getting to see your real views on God, and your limited theology. For you, God is not trancendent. For you, God is not all-powerful. Like I said before, you are the one who is limiting God's attributes, not I.

Every time God states that He is capable of all things, it is a declaration of His omnipotence.

Now unless you wanna with a great twist define maths as being a thing your argument makes no sense.

LOL you just don't get it do you? Maths IS a created THING! Every Law of this CREATED universe is CREATED along with it.

Even modern Science itself has discovered that the laws of mathematics do NOT always apply uniformly throughout existence. Try and explain the paradox of Shroedinger's Cat with 1+1=2 ... are there two different cats in the chamber? Is there one cat? Is that one cat both alive and dead at the same time?

You base your whole argument on rationality, without even knowing how limited rationality is.

Mathematics is a concept of understanding how things logically operate. Sure we can say as long as theres no observer theres no sense of mathematics so asa GOD came into being infinite "time" ago so did maths with Him being the first observer.

You don't even understand your own argument! God didn't come into being "an infinite time ago." Your argument is supposed to be that God came into being through infinite time! That is what I used to believe (and you borrowed that argument from my debate with that atheist, without even fully understanding it!). According to this argument, it was infinite TIME which allowed for God to come about. But that argument is based on the ASSUMPTION that "time" existed before God. And the laws of mathematics are independent and objectively defined with an independent existence.

It's a hypotheis yes but it is a hypothesis based on NATURAL phenomena. Thats the point. Doing supernaturealism is what causes problems.

No, rationalizing supernaturalism is what causes problems. That is what you are doing, without even realizing it. You have ZERO evidence that can be scientifically demonstrated for the existence of GOD. Yet you think you can rationalize the supernatural. And the more you try, the more you sacrifice the attributes of God all to support your weak arguments.

Now your comitting the fallacy of resorting to ridicule. You just keep on comitting fallacy after fallacy without actually brining up the points for discussion. Once again ive given my arguments. GOD Bless!

)

Buddy, I could start an entire thread based on all the fallacies in your so called "arguments". And as for your unfounded accusation that I have presented you fallacious arguments... all I can say is whatever

PeAcE

kirikanan

Salamun alaikum

I just want to ask simple Question, regarding the Ptolemaic corpus on Macoraba or perhaps any other city, have someone try to put those latitude and longitude in Current gps system? I mean the opponent of mecca = Macoraba have you tried to put lat an long givehn by Ptolemy for Yathib?

becuase i trie duse Google GPS and both error result, did I input the number wrongly or..?? please help

peace peace

shad

I have recently joined this site and I am still learning. I am confused between the word 'salat' and 'salla'.
The problem is that the word 'salla' is not in the dictionary and the word 'salat' is not in the Quran.

But when we read the Quran in Arabic it is always pronounced as ?Aqimus-Sal-laa- taa-wa-aatuz- Zakaa? ? nobody says ?Aqimus-Salaat-taa-wa-aatuz-Zakat?. This is evident even during the call of prayer, the ?azaan?. All over the world - the person who announces the prayer will shout with ?Hai-ya-?alas-Sal-laa? ? never as ?Hai-ya-?alas-Salaat?. We know this word is pronounced the way it is spelt in the Quran.

So in my opinion, we say 'salat' is contact prayers as defined in the Hadiths. 'Salla' of Quran is something else.

Please feel free to clarify this for me.

kirikanan

Salam

Bismilah...

iam not going to go into details, just straight to the point

Shalla it's verb if you put ta marbutha in the end then it will be noun. In other words activity shalla that can be identified or named. Derived from the sad-lam-waw (arabic roots) and all prescribed in Al Quran in many verses.

The variations

shalat (noun) - (without definitive article) is not ritual and not time prescribed. this highlight Connections, relations, As in

• Rasul (in other words, human) shollu those who gave amwal for purification (9103)

• Rasul (human) cannot stand and suplicating give dua to al mukhalaf (981-84)

Shalat (noun) (activity shalla that can be named) (withhout definitive article) also highlight the the blessing that Allah gave to Rasull, blessing malaikat to rasul, human bless to rasul. Rasul bless other human as given example before

The problem is, most of people here failed to recognized there are other variation on the word of shalla, the one with definitive article or isim makrifat ;D

As I explained before we can see connections established

• Allah to Rasul

• Malaikat to rasul

• Rasul (i/o human) to human

Remember all above is not ritual and can be done at anytime or even continuously, not time constraint!
Whats missing here??? if you can see clearly the one is missing connection human to Allah

That is the one that Allah described as As shalat - with alif lam (definitive article/isim makrifah) is always ritual at the time prescribed. This is where human made connection with Allah

So one should really put very close attention on isim makrifah, because the devils is in the details!! That what make most people miss when reading AlQur'an, so they are generally treated the word the same is every verse without considering the syntax, context, this is wrong way to read AlQur'an. They fail to read Qur'an without proper nahwu shorof. Ironically, that is the main problem that I have seen in this forum, the debate between ritualist and non ritualis never end

The site like corpus quran also should be revised regarding the occurrences on this word, it should be something like this

• 12 times as in all (&#1648 verb/fi'il

• 12 times as in sallat (without alif lam) ( ) noun/nomina/isim

• 71 times as in asalat (dengan alif lam) (&#1614 noun/nomina/isim

• 1 time as in muallan (&#1609 noun/nomina/isim

• 3 times as in mualln (&#1606 active participle

*numbers may differ slightly, please check again

While as shalat is purely one (human) connection to Allah, always ritual and always time prescribed. I'm not going to debate on how many times, regarding this only Allah is the Hakim (note I use the as definitive article).

So guys, lets end this debate, we are all AlQuran only follower rigth??
its ritual and non ritual, both are prescribed in AlQur'an

I hope with this little shadaqah ( in other words shalat) that I gave here , everyone can contemplate, will start over, try to approach every ayat consisting the word with care, and may Allah give you new insight of what really prescribed. So, there's a difference between Qur'an only and (Al) Qur'an only

I wish you all well and may Allah Guide us unto His straight path

Salam

Im sorry if my English is not understandable

shad

Thanks kirikanan

Everyones response help me understand a bit more

Thanks for taking the time to clarify

Shad

GODsubmitter

Salam

Bismilah...

iam not going to go into details, just straight to the point

Shalla it's verb if you put ta marbutha in the end then it will be noun. In other words activity shalla that can be identified or named. Derived from the sad-lam-waw (arabic roots) and all prescribed in Al Quran in many verses.

The variations

shalat (noun) - (without definitive article) is not ritual and not time prescribed. this highlight Connections, relations, As in

• Rasul (in other words, human) shollu those who gave amwal for purification (9103)

• Rasul (human) cannot stand and suplicating give dua to al mukhalaf (981-84)

Shalat (noun) (activity shalla that can be named) (withhout definitive article) also highlight the the blessing that Allah gave to Rasull, blessing malaikat to rasul, human bless to rasul. Rasul bless other human as given example before

The problem is, most of people here failed to recognized there are other variation on the word of shalla, the one with definitive article or isim makrifat ;D

As I explained before we can see connections established

• Allah to Rasul

• Malaikat to rasul

• Rasul (i/o human) to human

Remember all above is not ritual and can be done at anytime or even continuously, not time constraint!
Whats missing here??? if you can see clearly the one is missing connection human to Allah

That is the one that Allah described as As shalat - with alif lam (definitive article/isim makrifah) is always ritual at the time prescribed. This is where human made connection with Allah

So one should really put very close attention on isim makrifah, because the devils is in the details!! That what make most people miss when reading AlQur'an, so they are generally treated the word the same is every verse without considering the syntax, context, this is wrong way to read AlQur'an. They fail to read Qur'an without proper nahwu shorof. Ironically, that is the main problem that I have seen in this forum, the debate between ritualist and non ritualis never end

The site like corpus quran also should be revised regarding the occurrences on this word, it should be something like this

• 12 times as in all (&#1648 verb/fi'il

• 12 times as in sallat (without alif lam) ( ) noun/nomina/isim

• 71 times as in asalat (dengan alif lam) (&#1614 noun/nomina/isim

• 1 time as in muallan (&#1609 noun/nomina/isim

• 3 times as in mualln (&#1606 active participle

*numbers may differ slightly, please check again

While as shalat is purely one (human) connection to Allah, always ritual and always time prescribed. I'm not going to debate on how many times, regarding this only Allah is the Hakim (note I use the as definitive article).

So guys, lets end this debate, we are all AlQuran only follower rigth??
its ritual and non ritual, both are prescribed in AlQur'an )

I hope with this little shadaqah ( in other words shalat) that I gave here , everyone can contemplate, will start over, try to approach every ayat consisting the word with care, and may Allah give you new insight of what really prescribed. So, there's a difference between Qur'an only and (Al) Qur'an only

I wish you all well and may Allah Guide us unto His straight path

Salam

Im sorry if my English is not understandable

Thank you very much for this post.
I have a feeling that there is some important truth in what you are saying.
Unfortunately I do not know Arabic at all, so cannot judge the issue, but I like that you go straight to the point.
The conclusion seems that salat is a regular physical contact prayer and that it isn't, as well.
So, since there is an instruction for the physical ablution in the Qur'an, you advocate that there is a regular physical ritual prayer as well, isn't it so?

God bless.

hicham9

I'm impressed @kirikanan!

I slightly agree with your (current) understanding of lwt!

QA lwh (&#1607, or lwt (&#1577 is a Shemitic term whose basic meaning, I understand as Rapport, Rapprochement, Conciliation or Reconciliation, ... This is my (current) understanding.

Consequently, I too recognize two types of lwt in the Qurn!

One is individualistic ~ prescribed upon the acknowledger/s (4103)
This, I regard as a personal reunion between the servant/s and The One Master ...

The 2nd is generally prescribed upon the people altogether (en masse).
ie. Humans are expected to establish and maintain harmony/agreement/concord between the parties in dispute ~ see ADR

Ps. No wonder the Mid-East was and still is at war, subject to foreign occupation, and war crimes ...

primitive/backward people, vicious, weak, and divided, ...

My people have forsaken the Guidance (2530), ... and lwt with it (1959).

SLM

Man_of_Faith

In ways saad-lam-waw ( &#1608 could be regarded as connection because it is that you choose to follow someone, namely GOD. In that you keep the connection.

However, the true dictionary definition for the root is to (make) follow someone or something (guide), not necessarily literally but through your perception, and imitation.

The object is the followed entity, quite abstract and ambiguous it may seem, but it refers to guidance (of GOD). It is no ritual prayer, obviously.

This should not be confused or mixed up with (huda) which does not mean guide but it means "grace/gift" rather than what is traditionally conceived.

Salaam

Armanaziz

Salam kirikanan.

I agree to most of your analysis. However, instead of saying "As shalat - with alif lam (definitive article/isim makrifah) is always ritual at the time prescribed." I would say shalat (&#1577 refers to respect/blessing invoked by humans for Allah - generally expressed in some form of ritual - which is supposed to be "established" by incorporating respect for the Almighty in one's entire life-style (words, actions, thoughts everything).

So when Qur?an says establish salaat ? the implication is not that one merely practices a time bound ritual ? the implication is one is commanded to ?incorporate reverence of Allah in his life-style? ?which should also ideally be attested by the practitioner through prescribed regular ritualistic expression (4103). We must not make the mistake of putting the form over substance.

Best regards,
Arman

Novice

Salam Arman and Man of Faith
Could you please give your translation of 4102-103? Thanks in advance for your time.
Regards

Armanaziz

Salam Arman and Man of Faith
Could you please give your translation of 4102-103? Thanks in advance for your time.
Regards

Please note below

4102 And when you happen to be among them so you establish for them the salaat, then let a faction of them stand with you and let them take their arms. Then when they have prostrated then let them be from behind you and let bring another faction which has not performed the salaat. So, let them perform the salaat with you and let them take their precautions and their arms. Those who repress faith desire that (only) if you neglected about your arms and amenities so that they could incline upon you a single inclination. And there is no offence upon you if there is any affliction due to rain or you happen to be ailing that you lay down your arms but you take your precautions. Indeed Allah has prepared a humiliating suffering for the ones who repress (faith).

4103 Then when you have decreed the salaat then remember Allah standing and sitting and (reclining) on your sides ?then when you are assured then establish the salaat. Indeed the salaat happens to be prescribed upon the faithful at fixed times.

Kindly note this is my personal translation subject to review / discussion, cross checking is recommended.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Wakas

peace,

Salam Arman and Man of Faith
Could you please give your translation of 4102-103? Thanks in advance for your time.
Regards

For 4102 analysis I recommend end of this article
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html

Novice

Thanks Wakas for the link. It covers almost all of my concerns regarding sajda and masjid ul haram. I wish everyone read and reflect on it.

@Arman

Thanks for the translation but it has not helped me in understanding 4102. To cite few points

1- You have not translated/interpreted SALAT

2- You translated as with YOU and as behind YOU. Arabic text has first "you" as singular but second "You" as plural

3- Your translation means first group finish sajda and then second group replaced it. So what the imam was doing during the change over and who was fighting one to one with enemy meanwhile?

4- Did imam performed sajda twice and followers only once or did imam performed two units while followers only one?

5- How can they not neglect their arms and amenities during salat (if you mean it the ritual namaz)
and so many more questions but I will stop with above only for the time being.

May be you visit the link provided by brother Wakas http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/Summary-problems-sujud-prostration-Quran.html

Please help me understand these questions.

Regards and peace

Armanaziz

Thanks Wakas for the link. It covers almost all of my concerns regarding sajda and masjid ul haram. I wish everyone read and reflect on it.

@Arman

Thanks for the translation but it has not helped me in understanding 4102. To cite few points

1- You have not translated/interpreted SALAT

2- You translated as with YOU and as behind YOU. Arabic text has first "you" as singular but second "You" as plural

3- Your translation means first group finish sajda and then second group replaced it. So what the imam was doing during the change over and who was fighting one to one with enemy meanwhile?

4- Did imam performed sajda twice and followers only once or did imam performed two units while followers only one?

5- How can they not neglect their arms and amenities during salat (if you mean it the ritual namaz)
and so many more questions but I will stop with above only for the time being.

May be you visit the link provided by brother Wakas http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/Summary-problems-sujud-prostration-Quran.html

Please help me understand these questions.

Regards and peace

Salam Novice

I did not claim to interpret the verse 4102 - I only attempted to provide a translation on best effort basis.

I usually leave salaat untranslated. Per my humble understanding, the literal meaning of this word is close to ?reverence? or ?respect?, but it also has an implied implication of a ritual to attest/rehearse ?reverence? or ?respect? for the Almighty. Somewhat like the English word ?salute? which can mean to show respect (?I salute your courage?) as well as a gesture to show respect (?The soldier saluted his Captain.?). I do not find an appropriate English word to convey both sides of the meaning of the word salaat so I find keeping it as ?salaat? to be most meaningful.
Good that you noted. In English You is both singular and plural. It is one of the reason it is always best to pay attention to the original Arabic text.

3-5. I do not insist on literal interpretation of verses? for me verses are signs. In particular I do not believe this verse or any verse in Qur?an describes a step by step ritual. I have observed that the Qur?an narrator has intentionally kept ritual related commands vague ? and I believe the implication is obvious. The mechanism of ritual has been left for the messenger and his community. So, to me reconstructing the rituals based on Quranic wording alone is a redundant and futile exercise.

Specifically in this case, I do not see this verse to clearly elaborate on how salaat ritual needs to be conducted during war situation - it merely gives the messenger a permission to conduct the salaat in phases with diffurrent groups - allowing him maximum flexibility on how this will be practiced.

When I study this verse or any verse, my primary contention is what do I take away from this verse. The signs which are obvious for me from 4102-103 are

Periodic salaat ritual has endorsement from Qur?an
Group salaat ritual with a leader has endorsement from Qur?an
Do not emphasize means (arms) over the end (precaution).

Beyond this if you see any other sign, please feel free to share, I am open to learning.

I'd also like to add - that I admit the verse can be interpreted by taking salaat as a system, suzud as submit etc. (the way brother Wakas has suggested); but for me such an interpretation would be a secondary interpretation. I cannot take that secondary interpretation as the only possible meaning rejecting the obvious primary interpretation.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Novice

Salam Arman

I did not claim to interpret the verse 4102 - I only attempted to provide a translation on best effort basis.

Yes you did not claim to interpret the verse but your translation created confusion and raised many questions. So what's the point of translating if it creates confusion.

I usually leave salaat untranslated. Per my humble understanding, the literal meaning of this word is close to ?reverence? or ?respect?

Sorry Arman but your understanding is not in line with the root meanings of the word. I believe each and every word in the Qur'an is important and The Almighty has used them to give us a clear message for our guidance. There cannot be any confusion if we follow the message without any preconceived concepts.

but it also has an implied implication of a ritual to attest/rehearse ?reverence? or ?respect? for the Almighty. Somewhat like the English word ?salute? which can mean to show respect (?I salute your courage?) as well as a gesture to show respect (?The soldier saluted his Captain.?). I do not find an appropriate English word to convey both sides of the meaning of the word salaat so I find keeping it as ?salaat? to be most meaningful.

As per my humble understanding, from the root meanings, salaat is something to follow. So I see the context of the word salaat in the Qur'an and see what is there to follow.

Good that you noted. In English You is both singular and plural. It is one of the reason it is always best to pay attention to the original Arabic text.

So what is your understanding of this change in pronoun from you to you all.

3-5. I do not insist on literal interpretation of verses? for me verses are signs. In particular I do not believe this verse or any verse in Qur?an describes a step by step ritual.

I appreciate your honest conclusion that step by step ritual cannot be found in Qur'an.

I have observed that the Qur?an narrator has intentionally kept ritual related commands vague ? and I believe the implication is obvious. The mechanism of ritual has been left for the messenger and his community. So, to me reconstructing the rituals based on Quranic wording alone is a redundant and futile exercise.

That is your observation and you have all the rights to make it. My humble observation is that if the mechanism of the ritual is not there then why one must assume things to support the inherited practices.

Specifically in this case, I do not see this verse to clearly elaborate on how salaat ritual needs to be conducted during war situation - it merely gives the messenger a permission to conduct the salaat in phases with diffurrent groups - allowing him maximum flexibility on how this will be practiced.

Why assume that salaat in this verse is a ritual when the context is war and salaat may be the strategy and instructions given by the leader to be followed.

When I study this verse or any verse, my primary contention is what do I take away from this verse. The signs
which are obvious for me from 4102-103 are

Periodic salaat ritual has endorsement from Qur?an
Group salaat ritual with a leader has endorsement from Qur?an
Do not emphasize means (arms) over the end (precaution).

Well like I said you have all the rights to have above understanding but as per my humble way I try to get the message by reflecting on the words used in the verses individually as well as in idioms and phrases. I do not derive meanings to validate inherited practices.

There is no compulsion in Deen so we can share our understandings and then we are free to follow what appeals to us.

I'd also like to add - that I admit the verse can be interpreted by taking salaat as a system, suzud as submit etc. (the way brother Wakas has suggested); but for me such an interpretation would be a secondary interpretation. I cannot take that secondary interpretation as the only possible meaning rejecting the obvious primary interpretation.

It is not important what we think but what is given by our Rub in the ayats. I personally try to follow what the Almighty has revealed to us in the Book.

May Allah guide us to the true understanding of His Message.

Peace and regards,
Tahir

Armanaziz

Salam Tahir

Wow.. were you trying to make it a piece of art or something

Great, I take your points. My observation was salaat as a ritual seems to be the obvious implication from 4102. If we take generic interpretation like salaat as "follow a system", suzud as "submission" the verse does not give a coherent meaning... but that's my understanding as of now.

Why don't you now share your translation. If you can show me your translation gives a more coherent meaning of this verse than taking salaat as a ritual - perhaps I will accept your translation.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

runninglikezebras

I agree with Wakas' analysis of sujud. In most literal sense it means to submit. As such the word sujud can't be an argument for any ritual prostration. But it does not exclude it either.

Is God asking us to submit our will to Him at fixed times only? I doubt it.

How does one express submission on fixed times? I'd say prostating is an excellent way of expressing such a thing.

Peace

ps this correlates with my understanding of malaika as being controllers of the laws of nature. They submit to man's will entirely. Just think about it, when you make yourself a cup of tea or coffee how many forces of nature are submitting to your will. It's worth pondering upon. Only Iblis refused.

Wakas

...the verse can be interpreted by taking salaat as a system, suzud as submit etc. (the way brother Wakas has suggested)...

To clarify, I did not suggest that.

Here is my view on salat
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm

amin

Salam Novice

I did not claim to interpret the verse 4102 - I only attempted to provide a translation on best effort basis.

I usually leave salaat untranslated. Per my humble understanding, the literal meaning of this word is close to ?reverence? or ?respect?, but it also has an implied implication of a ritual to attest/rehearse ?reverence? or ?respect? for the Almighty. Somewhat like the English word ?salute? which can mean to show respect (?I salute your courage?) as well as a gesture to show respect (?The soldier saluted his Captain.?). I do not find an appropriate English word to convey both sides of the meaning of the word salaat so I find keeping it as ?salaat? to be most meaningful.
Good that you noted. In English You is both singular and plural. It is one of the reason it is always best to pay attention to the original Arabic text.

3-5. I do not insist on literal interpretation of verses? for me verses are signs. In particular I do not believe this verse or any verse in Qur?an describes a step by step ritual. I have observed that the Qur?an narrator has intentionally kept ritual related commands vague ? and I believe the implication is obvious. The mechanism of ritual has been left for the messenger and his community. So, to me reconstructing the rituals based on Quranic wording alone is a redundant and futile exercise.

Specifically in this case, I do not see this verse to clearly elaborate on how salaat ritual needs to be conducted during war situation - it merely gives the messenger a permission to conduct the salaat in phases with diffurrent groups - allowing him maximum flexibility on how this will be practiced.

When I study this verse or any verse, my primary contention is what do I take away from this verse. The signs which are obvious for me from 4102-103 are

Periodic salaat ritual has endorsement from Qur?an
Group salaat ritual with a leader has endorsement from Qur?an
Do not emphasize means (arms) over the end (precaution).

Beyond this if you see any other sign, please feel free to share, I am open to learning.

I'd also like to add - that I admit the verse can be interpreted by taking salaat as a system, suzud as submit etc. (the way brother Wakas has suggested); but for me such an interpretation would be a secondary interpretation. I cannot take that secondary interpretation as the only possible meaning rejecting the obvious primary interpretation.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Salam Arman,

Good explanation,

Salat is to accept God's authority over everything and Sujud is part of the Salat for symbolically giving our acceptance.
here the ritual part is least important, but remember his nature by reciting verses related to Him and accept his authority looks to be the core part of Salat.

Regards,
Amin.