?Four Ashhur and ten days? or ?Four ashhur and ten ashhur??
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Can a perception of number from 13 to 19 be indicated to the listener or reader by placing a waw in between the cardinal and ordinals after the noun?
You mean as in (ر
We have a similar incident in the qur'aan with three digit numbers (1825). In Arabic in general, if this exists, it's mostly tailored along the lines of the qur'aan style.
Maybe this explains the somehow complexity of the numbering system in Arabic To allow for limitless combinations as long as the rules are respected. -
But Sister in what respect there is a similarity in these two?
Sister being teacher you know for non Arabs these digits and plurals are quite a difficult subject. Therefore I am seeking clarifications. I hope it is not taxing.
Look at it this way
300 years and increased 9
4 ashhur and .........10 -
That was how I saw and requested for some justification because
and are identical but and are not. And then it will make no sense with whereas in the case of years it makes things evident with . The calendar used in the locality of incident was solar and for Arabs 9 are added to 300 solar years which are equal to 309 lunar years.
The issue cropped up because of this opinion
One ?hawl? is one cycle which is the pregnancy period for human beings. It is equal to 10 moon cycles or 10 ashhur. The waiting period for women to ensure if there is pregnancy or not is called ?3idda? in Quran.
I went through Wakas Root project, I could not find where ?hawl? could be said to be one cycle or to have any relationship with conception and pregnancy. On the contrary it is used about not having conceived and become pregnant. And is used for a year not 10 months.
Average/mostly Pregnancy period for human beings is 266 days while 10 ashhur is equal to 295 days. Menses is absolutely the personal matter of a woman and only her husband has the right to know about it, not the society. After a husband has left his wife, the time is measured by months and days and not by menstruation cycle of the concerned lady. The prescription of cycles in case of divorce is not to wait and see the appearance of conception, but its primary objective is to provide an intervening period to the husband to review decision, and it is he who is told to keep counting the menstruation cycles of his divorced wife. Wife is advised to restrain taking a firm decision about her future course during this period.
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That was how I saw and requested for some justification because
and are identical but and are not. And then it will make no sense with whereas in the case of years it makes things evident with . The calendar used in the locality of incident was solar and for Arabs 9 are added to 300 solar years which are equal to 309 lunar years.
Because 3 is an isolated number, not part of a compound two-digit number. It's counting "100 feminine)" 9 is counting "years (feminine)".
and .
Counting a masculine noun 3-10
.....
Counting a masculine noun 13-19
....
days has the same case as for shahr .Counting feminine noun 3-10
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Counting feminine noun 13-19I was responding to your question whether we can brak-up the complex/compound number by a noun, and I gave you the example of 300 and increased 9, instead of 309 in one go. As for your explanation that this is counting lunar and solar years, I have no idea and cannot comment. It's just an explanation. Why couldn't it be 300 years and 900 years?! If they can sleep 300 years, they can sleep 1200 years ;D
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I have no idea and cannot comment. It's just an explanation. Why couldn't it be 300 years and 900 years?! If they can sleep 300 years, they can sleep 1200 years
This is because Sister We do not say that three hundred are increased by 900. Increasing figure needs to be less than the figure it is increasing.
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This is because Sister We do not say that three hundred are increased by 900. Increasing figure needs to be less than the figure it is increasing.
Maybe you're right, maybe it's just contextual. Anyway, I do not think this was your point nor the thread poster's.
Back to the topic. -
Sister, back to the topic of number
I was responding to your question whether we can brak-up the complex/compound number by a noun, and I gave you the example of 300 and increased 9, instead of 309 in one go.
The question is not for complex/compund number comprising of singles, tens, hundreds, and thousands. But only numbers ranging 13-19 since it comprises of only two digits written only by two words, one representing 10 and the other units from 1 to 9.
My question is wheter in between these two words "waw" can be placed, resulting in tearing apart of this combination by bringing in its middle the noun/the madud? Would then the segregated words automatically not become different units and not combination of 10 and other unit? Rules for 1-10 and 13-19 are also different from each other, how will they be reconciled.Uqud's/comples/compound numbers example perhaps has no relevance to it.
Would an Arab like to convey the same perception of possession to me by placing immediately after and then say ? Would he be correct?
Can these 19 upon her be represented, without creating confusion in the mind of the reader/listener, by placing a "waw" in between and ? Whatever Arabic text I have so far seen, I do not recollect that for number 13-19 there is an intervening waw. Pl guide.
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I understand your question. The example of years I gave you is even more to the point of your question, does not matter whether the number is broken by the maduud or by another word, because, as I said, even this expression of counting of years broken by a word is not used, and could be specific to the qur'aan.
As for the example we have in this verse about shahr, I would say it's not the norm either; but there's no other explanation for the "ten" to be other than the other part of the compound number "14". As I also explained, the only other explanation the scholars came up with was " ten nights", thus acknowledging the problem with 10, and proposing a solution that is not qur'aanic the qur'an mentions nights for nights, not days.
But according to the understanding of Tlepsh that the 4 and the ten are for different purposes which were both mentioned before, this verse style, I would say, is very specific and precise, avoiding too much explanation. -
But according to the understanding of Tlepsh that the 4 and the ten are for different purposes which were both mentioned before, this verse style, I would say, is very specific and precise, avoiding too much explanation.
But as I explained earlier 10 months has no relevance to the other purpose too. That is a conjecture, not a ground fact.
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But as I explained earlier 10 months has no relevance to the other purpose too. That is a conjecture, not a ground fact.
Peace Mazhar,
2.33 Mothers shall suckle their children for two whole (hawl)s; (that is) for those who wish to complete the suckling?.
46.15 ?.., and the bearing (carrying) of him and the weaning of him is thirty shahran,?
From the above two verses it is clear that
30 Shahran = pregnancy duration + suckling time
Suckling time is 2 complete hawls
Duration of human pregnancy is not a fixed number of days. In every document concerning the duration of pregnancy you see an average number of days not a fixed number of days. The following is an example
?Duration of human singleton pregnancy. A population-based study. (Bergsj? P, Denman DW 3rd, Hoffman HJ, Meirik O. 1990)
In cases of reliable menstrual dates, the average duration from LMP to vaginal birth was 282 days (median), 281 days (mean) and 283 days (mode), remaining constant over the years of study. One standard deviation of the mean was approximately 13 days, varying slightly with age and parity. Ten per cent of these women gave birth post term (past 294 days).?
God tells us that
Pregnancy duration = (30 shahran ? 2 hawl)
So you yourself calculate how many shahr is one hawl.(ل The primary meaning of hawl is to be changed.
(ل means the period in which certain plants attain their complete strength even if one year is not passed. It means the time required from planting a vegetable as a seed until it produces fruits.When it is related to the sun Hawl means a year in consideration of its changing, and of the revolution of the sun in its places of rising and setting. (For example the sun rises from the same point every summer solstice with respect to a fixed point on the earth)
Concerning a human (ل HAWL is the period of pregnancy, which is approximately 40 weeks, 280 days, 10 lunar months starting with the last known menstrual period (LMP). In one hawl, the female body (yatahawwal) transforms from the state of being not pregnant to the sate of being pregnant and back to the state of being not pregnant.
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2.33 Mothers shall suckle their children for two whole (hawl)s; (that is) for those who wish to complete the suckling?.
46.15 ?.., and the bearing (carrying) of him and the weaning of him is thirty shahran,?
From the above two verses it is clear that
30 Shahran = pregnancy duration + suckling time
Suckling time is 2 complete hawls
Duration of human pregnancy is not a fixed number of days. In every document concerning the duration of pregnancy you see an average number of days not a fixed number of days. The following is an example
?Duration of human singleton pregnancy. A population-based study. (Bergsj? P, Denman DW 3rd, Hoffman HJ, Meirik O. 1990)
In cases of reliable menstrual dates, the average duration from LMP to vaginal birth was 282 days (median), 281 days (mean) and 283 days (mode), remaining constant over the years of study. One standard deviation of the mean was approximately 13 days, varying slightly with age and parity. Ten per cent of these women gave birth post term (past 294 days).?
God tells us that
Pregnancy duration = (30 shahran ? 2 hawl)
So you yourself calculate how many shahr is one hawl.Assalamo Alaikum,
Childbirth usually occurs about 38 weeks after fertilization (conception), i.e., approximately 40 weeks from the last normal menstrual period (LNMP) in humans. The date of delivery is considered normal medically if it falls within two weeks of the calculated date. The calculation of this date involves the assumption of a regular 28-day period. Thus, pregnancy lasts almost nine months.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PregnancyAnd exact normal gestation period
The human gestation period--the period of time between conception and labor--is approximately forty weeks (280 days), measured from the first day of the mother's last menstrual period. A gestation period of thirty-eight weeks (266 days) is calculated for women who are pregnant by a procedure such as in vitro fertilization or artificial insemination that allows them to know their exact date of conception.http//findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g2602/is_0002/ai_2602000272
What Grand Quran gave excellent information and laid down for common knowledge was that a mother can give birth to a living child in 6 months. so that a woman giving birth after little more 6 months of her marriage could not be accused of having brought it conceived earlier than marriage. 7 months delivery is a commonly known fact and possibility, but possibility of 6 months delivery in this age of fast communications is not known to billions of people. When breast feeding was mentioned, two years were used. In Ayah 2233 it is complete two years . A common man's perception of it is complete two years NOT two cycles. Quran is for every man, commoners included who know the meanings of the words as is known by everyone.
Quran explains meanings of its words and does not let people to draw meanings of their own choice. is translated by Quran as . And is explained . Thus it is unimbiguously told that it is only complete two years. And a year comprises of 12 months in the Book of Allah
Therefore two years are equal to 24 months.And when pregnancy and milking was combined word 30 months was used.
Conception and breast feeding is for 30 months. Breast feeding is for complete 24 months. And it shows the period of his conception by his mother and delivery 6 months. And conception was also explained for the husbands
Brother I hope this will clarify the point. Thanks.
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Conception and breast feeding is for 30 months. Breast feeding is for complete 24 months. And it shows the period of his conception by his mother and delivery 6 months. And conception was also explained for the husbands
Peace Mazhar, agree with what you wrote except to be more precise...
1712 And We made the night and the daytime two signs, so We wiped erased the night's sign, and We made the daytime's sign clearly visible to the eye and understanding, to wish grace from your Lord, and to know the years' number, and the counting/calculating, and every thing We detailed it explaining.
Exact equation
3114 and his weaning in two years (< 2 not = 2)
4615 and his pregnancy with him, and his weaning 30 months30 months ? his weaning (< 2 years solar) = pregnancy
(30 x lunar month) - (< 2 x 365.242199 days) = 155.433302 or more days
155.433299 / 29.53059 = 5.26346744+ lunar months
155.433299 / 7 = 22.204757+ weeks
Peace
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Salam Tlepsh,
Your explanation is clear and well presented; you used the Quran to understand the Quran and the verses you listed support each other. The Quran is precise in its meaning, clear and self explanatory; it is us who abandoned its study and language and claimed it to be difficult to understand.
There is no need to be concerned with the gender of the number; rather we should look for the counted unit in order to understand the number, the qualifier of the number if you will, which here is the Ashhur (ر. The number 10 on its own means only number 10 and in no way can be assumed to be days or nights or anything else for that matter. The fact is days and nights are no where mentioned in these verses to be even thought of.
The composition and grammatical usage of the Arabic Language that we know at present time did not precede the Quran. Actually, they were derived from the Quran many years after its revelation and were not founded in accordance to pure linguistic and logical science. Many rules were created in support of certain interpretation of some of Quran's verses.
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Exact equation
3114 and his weaning in two years (< 2 not = 2)
4615 and his pregnancy with him, and his weaning 30 months30 months ? his weaning (< 2 years solar) = pregnancy
(30 x lunar month) - (< 2 x 365.242199 days) = 155.433302 or more days
155.433299 / 29.53059 = 5.26346744+ lunar months
155.433299 / 7 = 22.204757+ weeks
Brother, but what would be the evidence from Quran to consider one thing according to lunar and the other with solar system. And calaendar from the beginning of our Universe is the one which Arabs followed, i.e. the lunar calendar.
"Allah is the Cleaver of the Daybreak. And Has appointed the night for rest/stillness. And appointed the Sun and Moon for reckoning {computation, calculation, measuring, visualization}. These are the equations/settings of relations/ relativity by the One Who has absolute Dominance/Control/Command and Absolute Knowledge" {Refer 696}
"The Sun and the Moon are with equation/calculation/measure" {Refer 5505}
The Sun and Moon both have been declared ""as a means of , reckoning, computation, calculation, measuring and visualizing and foreseeing the future scenario. And then another fact is told that this has been made possible because both the Sun and Moon are "" in accordance with a calculated and equated measure. The point has been made distinct"He is the One Who has given the Sun characteristic of radiating heat and light; and to the Moon of reflecting light. And He appointed the stages/spaces of the Moon so that you people may know the count/number of {Lunar} years and calculations, equations. And Allah has not created this except for a determined purpose and as proven fact. He distinctly explains the statements of the Book so that people may learn/know" {Refer 1005}
So we will have to remain on one system. Thanks.
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Peace,
2.67 And Moses said to his people ?God orders you to slaughter a heifer.? They said ?Do you mock us?? He said ?I seek refuge with God that I not be of the ignorant ones.?
2.68 They said ?Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify which it is.? He said ?He says it is a heifer neither too old nor too young, an age between that. So now do as you are commanded.?
2.69They said ?Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify what color it is.? He said ?He says it is a yellow heifer with a strong color, pleasing to those who see it.?
2.70They said ?Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify which one it is, for the heifers all look alike to us and we will, God willing, be guided.?
2.71He said ?He says it is a heifer which was never subjugated to plough the land, or water the crops, free from any blemish.? They said ?Now you have come with the truth.? And they slaughtered it, though they had nearly not done so.
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Salam Mazhar,
What rational do you have to assume that the word = and = let us read the following verses which use these terms
2233
In this verse we are given a maximum time for breast feeding for those who want to complete breast feeding term. This means breast feeding can be much less or like present time can be none.
3114
In this verse God is telling us that if we are to separate the infants from the mothers who carried and gave birth to them for whatever reason it should be done within 2 years as this would be easier for the child and the new mom. This 2 years period has nothing to do with breast feeding as the mother could have weaned the infant at any time she wants and still not be separated from him till closer to the end of 2 years.4615
This verse is similar to the above except for the 30 months period which I think is to account for the minimum pregnancy term plus the separation time limit for if the period is increased to account for the normal pregnancy term and an early birth happened then the separation time limit would be violated.Do you not agree that the word is not the same as the word as both words used in the Quran?
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Brother, but what would be the evidence from Quran to consider one thing according to lunar and the other with solar system. And calaendar from the beginning of our Universe is the one which Arabs followed, i.e. the lunar calendar.
"He is the One Who has given the Sun characteristic of radiating heat and light; and to the Moon of reflecting light. And He appointed the stages/spaces of the Moon so that you people may know the count/number of {Lunar} years and calculations, equations. And Allah has not created this except for a determined purpose and as proven fact. He distinctly explains the statements of the Book so that people may learn/know" {Refer 1005}
So we will have to remain on one system. Thanks.
Brother, no word ?lunar? in the verse you quoted and Arabs/traditionalists are wrong on many things.
Nor infer 12 lunar months = 1 solar year, this is not in Quran which says there are 12 shahr.
105 He is who made the sun light/shining and the moon a light, and He evaluated it places of descent/sequences/descents to know (the) number (of) the years and the counting/calculating, God did not create that except with the truth , He explains the verses/evidences to a nation knowing.
I believe ?places of descent/sequences? manazila in this refers back to the sun, to calculate solstice.
Whereas in 3639 manazila obviously refers to the moon stages/phases to calculate the months.
3639
3639 And the moon We predestined it (in) sequences/descents until it returned as/like the palm tree's branch/date bunch, the old.
Likewise, it is sun to calculate years tied to sun/seasons?
1712
1712 And We made the night and the daytime two signs, so We wiped erased the night's sign, and We made the daytime's sign clearly visible to the eye and understanding, to wish grace from your Lord, and to know the years' number, and the counting/calculating, and every thing We detailed it explaining.
1247
1247 He said "You sow/seed/plant seven years consistently, so what you harvested, so leave it in its ear/spike (of corn, barley etc.), except little from what you eat."
To use lunar years in my opinion brings about contradiction and we know interpretation is in error.
Peace
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Peace,
2.67 And Moses said to his people ?God orders you to slaughter a heifer.? They said ?Do you mock us?? He said ?I seek refuge with God that I not be of the ignorant ones.?
2.68 They said ?Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify which it is.? He said ?He says it is a heifer neither too old nor too young, an age between that. So now do as you are commanded.?
2.69They said ?Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify what color it is.? He said ?He says it is a yellow heifer with a strong color, pleasing to those who see it.?
2.70They said ?Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify which one it is, for the heifers all look alike to us and we will, God willing, be guided.?
2.71He said ?He says it is a heifer which was never subjugated to plough the land, or water the crops, free from any blemish.? They said ?Now you have come with the truth.? And they slaughtered it, though they had nearly not done so.
And remember when Musa said to his people "Allah has certainly commanded you people that you sacrifice any one/ ordinary cow/heifer". They said "Are you taking us with fun/mockery?" He said " I seek refuge from Allah that I be amongst those who suggest scum/baseless things {attributing it to Allah}"
They said to Musa "Pray/call your Sustainer Lord for us to distinctly explain for us as to what type of cow/heifer is this to be sacrificed? Musa told them; "He says that the cow should be neither too old nor too young, but in between these two/middle aged. Your query having been answered, therefore, now do what you are being commanded"
They said to Musa "Pray/call your Sustainer Lord for us to distinctly explain for us as to what is her colour" He said "He says She be a cow of bright dark yellow colour, pleasing/looking original/genuine to onlookers"
They said to Musa "Pray/call your Sustainer Lord for us to distinctly explain for us as to what type of cow/heifer is this to be sacrificed? This peculiar cow {of particulars told here before} has caused us a confusion; and {on receiving clarification} certainly we will be guided, Allah willing.
He told them "He says that it is a cow which is not subjugated for tilling the soil nor to water the crop fields; a sound one with no spot". They said to Musa "Now you have come with the distinct/evident fact." It caused/cornered them to sacrifice her, though they had no wish/intention to do it.
He did not ask them to sacrifice some special or particular heifer. They felt offended as if they were being mocked. After a categorical denial, they took a turn and started asking to give the pecularities of the weifer. All their queries were answered but they repeated the same words which they had said in the first instance. And look at the deceptive technique, to give an impresion to their common people, as if they were ready to obey the command but since Musa {alahissalam} had not clearly defined the heifer, therefore, they were reluctant. Allah disclosed that only for reason of having been cornered, they sacrificed while they had no intention of doing it. May Allah guide us not to follow the patterns of Bani Israel.
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Brother, no word ?lunar? in the verse you quoted and Arabs/traditionalists are wrong on many things.
Nor infer 12 lunar months = 1 solar year, this is not in Quran which says there are 12 shahr.
105 He is who made the sun light/shining and the moon a light, and He evaluated it places of descent/sequences/descents to know (the) number (of) the years and the counting/calculating, God did not create that except with the truth , He explains the verses/evidences to a nation knowing.
I believe ?places of descent/sequences? manazila in this refers back to the sun, to calculate solstice.
Whereas in 3639 manazila obviously refers to the moon stages/phases to calculate the months.
3639
3639 And the moon We predestined it (in) sequences/descents until it returned as/like the palm tree's branch/date bunch, the old.
Likewise, it is sun to calculate years tied to sun/seasons?
1712
1712 And We made the night and the daytime two signs, so We wiped erased the night's sign, and We made the daytime's sign clearly visible to the eye and understanding, to wish grace from your Lord, and to know the years' number, and the counting/calculating, and every thing We detailed it explaining.
1247
1247 He said "You sow/seed/plant seven years consistently, so what you harvested, so leave it in its ear/spike (of corn, barley etc.), except little from what you eat."
To use lunar years in my opinion brings about contradiction and we know interpretation is in error.
Peace
Brother, here is no question of what traditionalists do. Only the grandeour of Arabic language is to be praised.
"He is the One Who has given the Sun characteristic of radiating heat and light; and to the Moon of reflecting light. And He appointed the stages/spaces of the Moon so that you people may know the count/number of {Lunar} years and calculations, equations. And Allah has not created this except for a determined purpose and as proven fact. He distinctly explains the statements of the Book so that people may learn/know" {Refer 1005}
Sun is feminine, Qamar is masculine, so declared by the One Who created both two.
In 1712 day and night has been declared as source of reckoning of years and other calculation. Here it is solar system since day and night are related solely and exclusively to sun, according to knowledge and perception of humanity in time and space.