?Four Ashhur and ten days? or ?Four ashhur and ten ashhur??
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Peace All,
The interim period for
Divorced women is three menstruations in normal case
Divorced women is three ashhur in case they reached menopause
Divorced women is three ashhur in case they do not menstruate
Divorced women is until they give birth in case they are pregnant (65.4)Divorced women is zero in case they are divorced before having intercourse (33.49)
2.240 And those of you who pass away and leave widows behind; a testimony to them that they may enjoy for ?one hawl? without being made to vacate. If they leave then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves in goodness; and God is Noble, Wise.
One ?hawl? is one cycle which is the pregnancy period for human beings. It is equal to 10 moon cycles or 10 ashhur. The waiting period for women to ensure if there is pregnancy or not is called ?3idda? in Quran. The period provided for them in their houses without being made vacate is called ?mata3?.
Mata3 is one hawl or 10 ashur.
Now lets read 2.239
2.234 And for those of you who pass away and leave widows behind, then their widows shall wait four ashhur and ten. So if they reach their required interim, then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves equitably. And God is Expert to what you do.
And in 2.226 we again have four ashhur.
2.226 For those who are discontent with their wives, let them wait for four ashhur. If they reconcile, then God is Forgiving, Most Merciful.
In my understanding the ?3idda? for widows is four ashhur. And ?mata3? is 10 ashhur. This is what mentioned in 2.234. It is not four ashhur and ten days but it is four ashhur and ten ashhur. God did not mention ?days? in 2.234.
Furthermore in 2.241 God says that ?mata3? for divorced women is an obligation upon the righteous.
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Peace Tlepsh,
In my understanding the ?3idda? for widows is four ashhur. And ?mata3? is 10 ashhur. This is what mentioned in 2.234. It is not four ashhur and ten days but it is four ashhur and ten ashhur. God did not mention ?days? in 2.234.
Quran uses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20?
Why not 14?
The same was used as time about the young lads in the cave.
1825 And they stayed in their cave 300 years and add 9.
Is it 300 years add 9 years, or months, or days?
In Quran day in daylight sense (not time/era) is dawn-sunset not complete 24hr cycle.
I believe 10 refers to 24 hour cycles (day + night) after 4 shahr.
Start of wait for all widows regardless of menstrual state is phase of shahr (day + night) in which the husband expired; wait 4 occurrences of that same phase date and 10. Example If husband expired today Feb 28, 2009
Old Farmer?s Almanac Moon Phase Calendar
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/calendar/index.phpNew Moon 836 P.M. Feb 25
TODAY Feb 28 14% 4 days1 shahr March 30 19% 4 days
2 shahr April 28 16% 4 days
3 shahr May 28 23% 4 days
4 shahr June 26 21% 4 daysWait 10 more to July 6 100% 14 days
July 7, 2009 she is free
At issue are 12 shahr/year and which phase to use, new/full etc.
We should pick up and continue this thought/discussion in Hot Ramadan thread?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg194882;boardseen#new
Peace
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Peace Tlepsh,
Peace All,
The interim period for
Divorced women is three menstruations in normal case
Divorced women is three ashhur in case they reached menopause
Divorced women is three ashhur in case they do not menstruate
Divorced women is until they give birth in case they are pregnant (65.4)Divorced women is zero in case they are divorced before having intercourse (33.49)
2.240 And those of you who pass away and leave widows behind; a testimony to them that they may enjoy for ?one hawl? without being made to vacate. If they leave then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves in goodness; and God is Noble, Wise.
One ?hawl? is one cycle which is the pregnancy period for human beings. It is equal to 10 moon cycles or 10 ashhur. The waiting period for women to ensure if there is pregnancy or not is called ?3idda? in Quran. The period provided for them in their houses without being made vacate is called ?mata3?.
Mata3 is one hawl or 10 ashur.
Now lets read 2.239
2.234 And for those of you who pass away and leave widows behind, then their widows shall wait four ashhur and ten. So if they reach their required interim, then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves equitably. And God is Expert to what you do.
And in 2.226 we again have four ashhur.
2.226 For those who are discontent with their wives, let them wait for four ashhur. If they reconcile, then God is Forgiving, Most Merciful.
In my understanding the ?3idda? for widows is four ashhur. And ?mata3? is 10 ashhur. This is what mentioned in 2.234. It is not four ashhur and ten days but it is four ashhur and ten ashhur. God did not mention ?days? in 2.234.
Furthermore in 2.241 God says that ?mata3? for divorced women is an obligation upon the righteous.
Excellent point bravo bravo bravo
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Peace Tlepsh,
Quran uses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20?
Why not 14?
Peace Pseudo,
In my opinion God did not say 14 because the first 4 ashhur is for ?3idda? and the 10 ashhur (one hawl) is for ?mata3?. The widow has the right to stay in her/husbands house 14 ashhur without being made vacate. The first 4 ashhur she can not marry. After this 4 ashhur it is up to her to stay or marry or leave the house even if she is not married.(2.34 and 2.240) -
I think you are right, what ever is the unit , the next number has to be counted/taken in the same unit unless specified otherwise, which in this case should be shahr.
Now with this new understanding, her idda is 4 shahr, but if she is found to be pregnant, then it automatically extends to a Matta, which is a hawl ,of 10 shahr. Makes sense.
siki
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In my understanding the ?3idda? for widows is four ashhur. And ?mata3? is 10 ashhur. This is what mentioned in 2.234. It is not four ashhur and ten days but it is four ashhur and ten ashhur. God did not mention ?days? in 2.234.
How both four and ten could mean month?
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How both four and ten could mean month?
In fact, it could only mean shahr . If it were 4 months and 10 days, it should be . In Atrabic counting, the ten does not agree with the gender of the counted except when it is in a compound number (1-19)! Here, the ten is as masculine as shahr.
Well done Tlepsh!
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How both four and ten could mean month?
In fact, it could only mean shahr . If it were 4 months and 10 days, it should be . In Atrabic counting, the ten does not agree with the gender of the counted except when it is in a compound number (1-19)! Here, the ten is as masculine as shahr.
Well done Tlepsh!
Siste,
In the rule books I read that in case of 13-19 the second part of the adad agress with the madud and the first part is opposite gender; and secondly that madud of 13-19 is accusative singular. means only fourteen moon months. is masculine.
But Quran's words are different.The rule for 3-10 is that the numbers/adad do not agree with the madud, i.e. if the madud is masculine the number/adad is feminine and vica versa. Secondly the madud of 3-10 is genitive plural.
Siste, Please make me understand the rationale behind arriving at the aforesaid conclusion.
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If we take 3ashr (ten) as an isolated digit, it's in the masculine and should not agree with shahr/yaum (both masculine) only in one case when it's the second of a two digit number (13-19). So, either 3ashr (10) is part of a two digit number, or it's counting something else which is feminine (neither shahr nor day)...perhaps hours/minutes/seconds all of which are feminine ;D
Well... scholars say it's (ten nights).
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If we take 3ashr (ten) as an isolated digit, it's in the masculine and should not agree with shahr/yaum (both masculine) only in one case when it's the second of a two digit number (13-19). So, either 3ashr (10) is part of a two digit number, or it's counting something else which is feminine (neither shahr nor day)...perhaps hours/minutes/seconds all of which are feminine ;D
Well... scholars say it's (ten nights).
will certainly not agree both with shahr/yaum, being singular and masculine. In the count, days come immediately after month not hours since moon month comprises of days. Therefore what would hamper to understand that refers only
which meets all the conditionlities of the referred rules.Pl guide, Sister.
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Therefore what would hamper to understand that refers only
which meets all the conditionlities of the referred rules.Pl guide, Sister.
\ and \ are not grammatically different both are masculine when in the singular. If "shahr" does not fit, "yaum" won't either. That's why scholars such as Zamakhshary went for \ (night/s) which is feminie
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But Sister, the Grand Quran has used \ for two different and distinct things. It is used masculine when only refers to Day time . Quran has never used it masculine when it means complete day inclusive of night. The distinction laid by the Quran seems to have been missed
(4116)
It started at day time
(5419)
(6907) seven nights and 8 sun times, started at day light time and ended on day light time.
(280} This refers to the day
(,203;324;2184,(3140)
(754; 1002;1107; 2559; 324; 5038 and 5704)
(6924) -
But Sister, the Grand Quran has used \ for two different and distinct things. It is used masculine when only refers to Day time . Quran has never used it masculine when it means complete day inclusive of night. The distinction laid by the Quran seems to have been missed
(4116)
It started at day time
(5419)
(6907) seven nights and 8 sun times, started at day light time and ended on day light time.
(280} This refers to the day
(,203;324;2184,(3140)
(754; 1002;1107; 2559; 324; 5038 and 5704)
(6924)The only two similar usages are verse 6907 and 754 and . Our verse is whether it was or . Notice the numbers in these three inistances and . You see what I mean? The quraan uses feminine numbers for (days), in accordance with the general language rules; and what we have is a masculine number , so it cannot be couning days. It cannot be counting shahrs except if we look at it as .
The other usages are completely different is not . -
The quraan uses feminine numbers for (days), in accordance with the general language rules;
Sister,
But I do not find this thing at all the 405 points of occurence of word Yaum in the Quran. It has used feminine adad only with respect to day in the meaning of 12 hour masculine day not inclusive of night. And for complete day of the month [ }comprising of day and night it has always used masculine number.
This gives us the information that he could not speak for three days equalling just 36 hours and that he could speak during the night time. But Quran has informed, so that we know the fact and also learn nicities of Arabic language.
The point I am trying to highlight is that Arabic word has feminine number/adad only when it is used for bright part of the day, and has masculine gender when it is used for the Day of the month. I could not find any exception to this in the Quran.
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Sister,
But I do not find this thing at all the 405 points of occurence of word Yaum in the Quran. It has used feminine adad only with respect to day in the meaning of 12 hour masculine day not inclusive of night. And for complete day of the month .When the number is a compound number (13-14),the first part (3-9) is feminine but the second part should be masculine. We have a masculine "3ashr" .So either it is a one digit number and so "ayam" is not correct,or it's the second number of a compound number (e.g 14in the case of this verse) and the whole 14 should refer to shahr or to yaum.Since yaum is not even mentioned,we go for 14 shahr.
Example thamanyata 3ashr yauman; 3ashrata ayam(18 days; 10 days)(day is masculine; as well asshahr)
thamani 3ashrata lailatan; 3ashr layali (18 nights; ten nights) (night is feminine) -
Can a perception of number from 13 to 19 be indicated to the listener or reader by placing a waw in between the cardinal and ordinals after the noun?
You mean as in (ر
We have a similar incident in the qur'aan with three digit numbers (1825). In Arabic in general, if this exists, it's mostly tailored along the lines of the qur'aan style.
Maybe this explains the somehow complexity of the numbering system in Arabic To allow for limitless combinations as long as the rules are respected.