hajj / feast / debate
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@ rilum
could be possible, but not enough to be convinced..
Coz mount sinai is not in Jerusalam or closeby.. Also God Called Children of Isreal many times in Quran, so Jerusalam also inside Isreal as a nation. But not for Mohamed or his followers God called Children of Isreal, Right? Mount Sinai is Sinai province in south of Isreal (but not Isreal) under the rule of Egypt, if i am not wrong.. This sinai area is yester year Madyan. okay? Moses was in Madyan for many years and God called him and spoke to him and He asked Moses to remove his shoes and called it blessed place.. same as he called the first house and the place blessed. if the place moses talked to God and the house of God 396 were same, then Moses would have recognized it already would have removed his shoes, coz he would have come for haj. So that cant be the place. If Ibrahim lived in Madayn the house also couldnt be in same area since he left some of his progeny at the valley of house, probably he left to his own place, but not too far. hope..
what about 171 masjid alharam (restricted sanctuary) and Masjid al Aksa (Farthest Sanctuary) but aksa is called blessed.. have you ever noticed whether restricted sanctuary called as blessed? I didnt see in quran if my memory is right. God didnt call the Bakka area to be blessed but the house is blessed and guidance (guidance coz people flocking to get guidance from all prophet who preached books every year there)
So could this aksa be the place where moses talked to God? for glaring.. and the Masjid al Haram the restricted sanctuary in which the first house is built also close to Madyan, probably Petra where Abrahim didnt live but chosen the place to build the house, so did Mohamed lived there. (can any ancient city be better than that to be called mother of cities with carved houses of mountains.. ) could be mother of towns but not the strongest of all coz strongest nations have been destroyed by God than the mohamed lived. Strong and mother are two different things.. right?
for me Petra is blooming with all evidence of mannat, uzza and those artifacts of arrow of luck and evidences and also close to where Lot lived... But not Jerusalam -
Peace jKhan.
The question is which is true history?
Things need checking ,even then, doubts remain ,for example does this have any truth in it?
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSuKgz3LweE
Or this
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOLnXkP5i2c
Or near Petra Or near Egypt Or....Or...Too many theories...
I suggest there is more to come...
The main point is Qoran has not named many cities except few. Yathrib was mentioned so we can say Mohammed was in Yathrib at sometime or was he? Where is Yathrib?...
Also Qoran has chosen for us the investigative path about everything(1736). I suppose we keep on investigating.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Salam (good logic) and other..
Yes as you say can't b convinced.. But makka is no where these truths of words of God. One thing we can b thorough with where Mohamed lived before migrate is not definitely makka.same way rest of the truth will b out. Mohamed is not isrelete Prophet.. For sure.. Anyone who reads QURAN would get it.. Can anyone say what is real Israel (then n now) according to QURAN .. Though evidence and the names and the jews and Christian density would suggest it.. Children of Israel is according to Quran seems always the people of the book but not mushrik either.coz when God call children is really, God does not mean mushrik as per the tone of verses. Almost all of them knew what is faith and book.. God says children of isreal really were considered high than any.. If there were mushrik, it won't b said in that manner.. They believe it not is another matter. But they were people of the book. But not Mohamed n his people. Mohamed and his people hardly believe in it or knew what is faith. It's hard to think being in Jerusalem n not knowing what is faith.. Can't b in Jerusalem.. Yes Yathrib mentioned but after migrated.. Point here is not where prophet lived after, but before migrated, coz before migration he was living amongst masjid Al haram as per Quran.. God at one point says to children of Israel, jews n Christian, that Mohamed has more claim than you about Abraham.. What does it mean.. Coz among yahud n nasara definitely Muslim as per Quran.. Then why it was highlighted unless Mohamed is from Abraham place or nearby.. More to think -
Peace jKhan.
For me it is a city near Yathrib ?There is also some history on Jerusalem. Is that another focal point for another earlier people?
Can the "focal point" change?Why not? Can "Masjid Al Haram" be at different places? Why not?
Perhaps we are looking for one city when in fact there are two or more cities?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Further yachting and Al Marina cannot b same places.. Coz Al Madina also mentioned in Quran.. But if u carefully read even after migration prophet didn't seems to b lived in Madina.. Coz Allah says hypocrites are with you around and as well among people of Madina which u not know.. Yathrib suits most probably, and it's away from Roman influence too.. Where is Yathrib?
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Sorry for misspelling .... God says the people of the book knew masjid alharam as they know their own sons.. If it is Jerusalem no need to say it, coz they are living there and it's part of their life.. But if it is another place but well connected to their life. If people of the book knows it why not Mohamed knew if he is living in Jerusalem.. Yes focal points could b different, but first house and masjid haram is at same location.. These people of the book knew the history very well through their books but not Mohamed.. They knew what is masjid Al haram. And they knew the first house was there.. But they had their important places as focal points.. Probably coz the first house was occupied by mushrik while people of the book were revealed.. And their place of living is not either near to first house.. Just first house n not the only house. Right..? First house from Abraham and after his progeny, outdated for Muslims since mushrik lived their for ages taking the first house as their own and with veneration .. While important people were living in Israel.. But with the advent of Mohamed this first house again become into limelight coz its his place.. And after his death again dimmed out.. Now it is no more.. As I strongly believe that's focal points are to spread the Gods message by especially Prophets.. Without prophets around there is no meaning of focal points.. Now all messages delivered n no need of focal points.. Same as chapter 62 .. On the day of congregation. Leave business n make Salat n listen to what prophet says of God's message.. Coz its a kind of focal point since lots of people gather for business, so good opportunity to spread message.. So focal point of haj for spreading message is huge. Coz those who are living while prophets are around deserve to know what prophets are delivering.. Not by heresay.. Prophets duty is to deliver in a focal point other than the situational messages of it's own .. So people witness in haj and get benefit.. Why to get message through heresay when prophets are living.. And when there was no book available to read since messages are coming at regular intervals.. So every year people are updated with new messages till it get completed..
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Read the below verse pls..
4610 Say, "Have you considered if the Qur'an was from Allah , and you disbelieved in it while a witness from the Children of Israel has testified to something similar and believed while you were arrogant... ?" Indeed, Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.
Definitely Mohamed was positioned very close proximity to Isreal but not Isrealplease read all the quranic verses where the children of Isreal appear.. if God will, someone would find a clue with certainty..
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9101 And among those around you of the bedouins (a'rab) are hypocrites, and from the people of Al Madinah. They have become accustomed to hypocrisy. You, , do not know them, We know them. We will punish them twice ; then they will be returned to a great punishment.
3360 If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is disease and those who spread rumors in al-Madinah do not cease, We will surely incite you against them; then they will not remain your neighbors therein except for a little.
This verses have a hints of clue Prophet was not lived in Al Madina after migrated.
here the word A'rab is translated as bedoins but for me, the word would give meaning of "affluent party" among arabs -
to support my claim that Haj is not any more for us, please not the verse 2197
Hajj is well-known months, so whoever has made Hajj obligatory upon himself therein , there is no sexual relations and no disobedience and no disputing during Hajj. And whatever good you do - Allah knows it. And take provisions, but indeed, the best provision is fear of Allah. And fear Me, O you of understanding.well known months... Audience of the time of revelation of this verse have no question at all to ask, what are well known months.. but unfortunately we are at clueless questions what are these well known months..? and various contradictory responses too.. Remember these audience were not rocket science known people, but just simple people who were listening to these verses and follow them. As they said and promised, "we listen and we obey .." and they were practicing.. When Allah says, well known then no need of further explanation.. but why we dont know the well know matter.. if we also the audience for it.. no we are not.. look some verses allah says.. Al qaria, do you know what qaria is?, do you know what sijjeen is and similar.. so audience didnt know and we dont too and explained by God Himself. Same way when the were told Masjid Al Haram, they knew what it was, but unfortunately not we, even after through explorations by lots of quran only people without any bias too.. what does it hint.. God does not want to hide a must thing to be done by believers at a bay hidden.
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9101 And among those around you of the bedouins (a'rab) are hypocrites, and from the people of Al Madinah. They have become accustomed to hypocrisy. You, , do not know them, We know them. We will punish them twice ; then they will be returned to a great punishment.
3360 If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is disease and those who spread rumors in al-Madinah do not cease, We will surely incite you against them; then they will not remain your neighbors therein except for a little.
This verses have a hints of clue Prophet was not lived in Al Madina after migrated.
here the word A'rab is translated as bedoins but for me, the word would give meaning of "affluent party" among arabsIt is good how you are attempting to piece together history via pan textual context however, do not forget to include all verses pertinent to the topic at hand.
631 When come to you the hypocrites, they say, "We testify that you (are) surely (the) Messenger (of) Allah." And Allah knows that you (are) surely His Messenger, and Allah testifies that the hypocrites (are) surely liars.
...638 They say, "If we RETURN to Al-Madinah, surely, will expel the more honorable from it the more humble." But for Allah (is) the honor and for His Messenger and for the believers, but the hypocrites (do) not know.
Is this not indicative that the believers were planning a return to Madinah? Perhaps a brief sojourn but a return nonetheless.
What do you think? -
to support my claim that Haj is not any more for us, please not the verse 2197
Hajj is well-known months, so whoever has made Hajj obligatory upon himself therein , there is no sexual relations and no disobedience and no disputing during Hajj. And whatever good you do - Allah knows it. And take provisions, but indeed, the best provision is fear of Allah. And fear Me, O you of understanding.well known months... Audience of the time of revelation of this verse have no question at all to ask, what are well known months.. but unfortunately we are at clueless questions what are these well known months..? and various contradictory responses too.. Remember these audience were not rocket science known people, but just simple people who were listening to these verses and follow them. As they said and promised, "we listen and we obey .." and they were practicing.. When Allah says, well known then no need of further explanation.. but why we dont know the well know matter.. if we also the audience for it.. no we are not.. look some verses allah says.. Al qaria, do you know what qaria is?, do you know what sijjeen is and similar.. so audience didnt know and we dont too and explained by God Himself. Same way when the were told Masjid Al Haram, they knew what it was, but unfortunately not we, even after through explorations by lots of quran only people without any bias too.. what does it hint.. God does not want to hide a must thing to be done by believers at a bay hidden.
That is not a very good argument. I notice that usually to support your claim you bring forward verses from The Book. However, you did not do the same for this claim. You did not do so, because the Quran gives no supportive evidence for this claim. It is in fact, infinitely the opposite of what you say.
396-97
Indeed, (the) First House set up for the mankind (is) the one which (is) at Bakkah, blessed and a guidance for the worlds.
In it (are) signs clear, standing place of Ibrahim, and whoever enters it - is safe. And (due) to Allah upon the mankind (is) pilgrimage (of) the House (for one) who is able to (find) a way. And whoever disbelieved then indeed, Allah (is) free from need of the universe.Do you forbid people from doing that which Allah has made lawful or vice versa? Beware of that.
Certainly pilgrimage is an obligatory rite for whoever can find a way. But to claim that it is no longer required is VERY wrong.
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So dear HP Tech.. Where does QURAN order me to go for haj?
Dear jk are you having vision problems? Or is it English you find hard to understand?
I just posted it.396-97
Indeed, (the) First House set up for the mankind (is) the one which (is) at Bakkah, blessed and a guidance for the worlds.
In it (are) signs clear, standing place of Ibrahim, and whoever enters it - is safe. And (due) to Allah upon the mankind (is) pilgrimage (of) the House (for one) who is able to (find) a way. And whoever disbelieved then indeed, Allah (is) free from need of the universe. -
Dear HP Tech..
Relevant to 631 and 638..
These are definitely the hypocrites of Madina who will return to Madina back n not believers.. But according to verses of Quran definitely Madina is a neighborhood town of where prophet lived and in Madina believers also lived and they together have fought against the enemies.. These verses of wars difintely hint that.. -
Dear HP May the Creator of me preserve from both of those what you attribute at me. I know you posted it.. Where is the house that I should approach.. I love to as a true believer in God if really God orders me... But I am finding hard to trace the well known place to go for Haj.. Do u copy what I mean.. Remember 1736 ..is it better to do something half knowing it avoid it..
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Yes Manny E,
Definitely a building cannot b a beacon.. But the purpose it was established can b beecon.. Since people flocked to it and the messages of God kept conveyed throught prophets.. And it was a must I believe for yester generation since they have to witness the messages by their own prophet coz prophets were living.. All cannot meet Prophets unless it is an event like this.. Dont u like to go haj if your prophet around if u were living in that era every year and witness it n come n help poor with our money and sacrifice animal which would feed them during this great event to make more vibrant.. For me yes.. I would haveBut now for what.. To c whom and to get what beacon..beacon is within our fingers..
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Dear jk are you having vision problems? Or is it English you find hard to understand?
I just posted it.The meaning of 396 should be as follows
إِنَّ Inna (that) أَوَّلَ Aaoala (first) بَيْتٍ baitin (a charter) وُضِعَ udia (set) لِلنَّاسِ linnase (for human) لَلَّذِي (lallazi) for benefiting/enjoying بِبَكَّةَ bibakkata (with compassion/pity/kindness) مُبَارَكًا mubarakan (of blessing) وَ wa (and) هُدًى hudan (guidance) لِّلْعَالَمِينَ lilaalamin (for all/the whole)