hajj / feast / debate
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salaam brother ayman
i would like to get your attention on this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604235.0 that derived from his initial subject
if quran was revealed one shot and not gradually, then the first verses in sourate al rum seems to indicate that the year of revelation is 614 since the battle is well known in history.
Notice that there was a full moon in 23 septembre 614 at exactly 1825
PeaceSalaam,
Not true nope
23+614+18+25 is not divisible by 19
2+3+6+1+4+1+8+2+5 is not divisible by 19
23+614+1825 is not divisible by 19 -
From PRL
= Haa-Jiim-Jiim = to intend to a certain target, aim at, repair, undertake, repaired/betook himself to or towards a person / place / object of veneration/respect/honour, went/visit frequently/repeatedly, pilgrimage.
Overcome another by/in argument/evidences/proofs/testimonies, plead, contend/argue/dispute.
Refrain/abstain.
undertaking
NounI would translate "hajj" as "undertaking/venture/enterprise".
2227 And call out to the people with the undertaking/venture/enterprise, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
Perfecto!... This person is spot on regarding the concept of Hajj. It is supposed to be a "conference" where Muslims from all over the globe can come and discuss how to maintain the Islamic economy, politics, social + other issues concerning our society/ planet. For futher reading, I had recommend Ghulam Ahmed Parwez's website Tolu-e-Islam, and look into his perspective about hajj as well.
I personally do not mind the rituals associated with Hajj- but the running and sacrificing a goat seems harsh. Nevertheless, I could talk while we jog lol!
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From PRL
= Haa-Jiim-Jiim = to intend to a certain target, aim at, repair, undertake, repaired/betook himself to or towards a person / place / object of veneration/respect/honour, went/visit frequently/repeatedly, pilgrimage.
Overcome another by/in argument/evidences/proofs/testimonies, plead, contend/argue/dispute.
Refrain/abstain.I would rather choose "Hajj" = "Overcome Another by" due to the fact that hajj season provide alternative meat supply during the restricted 4 full moon period for hunting wild life, promoted by Prophet Ibrahim (p) inside & surrounding Beit al-haram.
The business, conference, meeting - resulting from the hajj season - are the spillover effect of this divine instruction.
In short, Prophet Ibrahim hajj (overcame/circumvent/bypass) the hunting restriction.
Peace & Regards
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Do we need to fast first 10 days of Dhu al-Hijjah ???
And fulfil the HaJJ and the visit for God. So if you are prevented/restrained then (give) what is easy of the offering/gift and do not relieve/unburden your chiefs/representatives (of this duty) until the offering reaches its permitted/lawful place* so whoever from among you was sick or with him harm/annoyance of/from his chief/representative then redeem/ransom from abstinence/fast or charity or sacrifice/observance.
So when you are safe/secure (i.e. in the designated vicinty) then whoever benefited/enjoyed with the visit to the HaJJ then (give) what is easy of the offering/gift, so whoever couldn't find then an abstinence/fast three days during the HaJJ and seven when you returned, this is ten complete.
That is for one whose people are not present (at) the inviolable time of acknowledgement (al masjid al haram) and be conscious of God and know that God is severe in punishment. -
I don't know where you got that from.
( , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #196)
Fulfil the Pilgrimage and the Visitation unto God; but if you are prevented, then such offering as may be feasible. And shave not your heads, till the offering reaches its place of sacrifice. If any of you is sick, or injured in his head, then redemption by fast, or freewill offering, or ritual sacrifice. When you are secure, then whosoever enjoys the Visitation until the Pilgrimage, let his offering be such as may be feasible; or if he finds none, then a fast of three days in the Pilgrimage, and of seven when you return, that is ten completely; that is for him whose family are not present at the Holy Mosque. And fear God, and know that God is terrible in retribution.Peace!
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Since the topic is haj here.. I think I better put these few verses of Quran to ponder.. No idea whether u all thought of it, but better remind..
In verse 832 Mohamed's people were asking to bring the destruction to them with STONE rain.. It made me think why these people if they were living in Makka far far from the place where people of Lot lived was asking the same medicine of how Lot people were destroyed.. Unless they knew how there neiboring ancestors were destroyed in that manner.. And they are well aware of it and a familiar thing and sight..
Verse 37133-138 talks about Lot and in the last it says they were walking or passing it by morning and night.. Is really meaning makkan people who pass it daily.. Was it really possible.. And further saying don't u ponder when u pass.. Where is Makka and where is Sodom..?
In verse 951-3
951 It says " I call to witness by figs and olives.. - do u really get olives and figs in the barren hills of makka, these two fruits.. Or is it some other place? Well know fruits in Sinai or surrounded?
952 it's says.. By the Mount Sinai.. Is mount Sinai in Makka.. That all sects believe not in Makka and well known to most where Sinai is.. It's not far from where Lot lived right? Where they can go morning n return night..
Then 953 and by THIS secure city.. After pointing figs and olive and Mount Sinai, and then says THlS secure city... How come jumped from Sinai to Makka? Unless it is a city very close proximity to mount Sinai.. And mentioned THIS city.. Audience well known..
Still do u think Mohamed lived in Makka? Or somewhere what Quran points at..
In this Sinai and surrounded area there are many towns and cities well known.. So when Quran calls Mother of cities or settlement.. Does Makka fit or somewhere else.. Does Makka have any famous cities surrounded to it.. Even makkan was not known then.. How surrounded places.. -
@ rilum
could be possible, but not enough to be convinced..
Coz mount sinai is not in Jerusalam or closeby.. Also God Called Children of Isreal many times in Quran, so Jerusalam also inside Isreal as a nation. But not for Mohamed or his followers God called Children of Isreal, Right? Mount Sinai is Sinai province in south of Isreal (but not Isreal) under the rule of Egypt, if i am not wrong.. This sinai area is yester year Madyan. okay? Moses was in Madyan for many years and God called him and spoke to him and He asked Moses to remove his shoes and called it blessed place.. same as he called the first house and the place blessed. if the place moses talked to God and the house of God 396 were same, then Moses would have recognized it already would have removed his shoes, coz he would have come for haj. So that cant be the place. If Ibrahim lived in Madayn the house also couldnt be in same area since he left some of his progeny at the valley of house, probably he left to his own place, but not too far. hope..
what about 171 masjid alharam (restricted sanctuary) and Masjid al Aksa (Farthest Sanctuary) but aksa is called blessed.. have you ever noticed whether restricted sanctuary called as blessed? I didnt see in quran if my memory is right. God didnt call the Bakka area to be blessed but the house is blessed and guidance (guidance coz people flocking to get guidance from all prophet who preached books every year there)
So could this aksa be the place where moses talked to God? for glaring.. and the Masjid al Haram the restricted sanctuary in which the first house is built also close to Madyan, probably Petra where Abrahim didnt live but chosen the place to build the house, so did Mohamed lived there. (can any ancient city be better than that to be called mother of cities with carved houses of mountains.. ) could be mother of towns but not the strongest of all coz strongest nations have been destroyed by God than the mohamed lived. Strong and mother are two different things.. right?
for me Petra is blooming with all evidence of mannat, uzza and those artifacts of arrow of luck and evidences and also close to where Lot lived... But not Jerusalam -
Peace jKhan.
The question is which is true history?
Things need checking ,even then, doubts remain ,for example does this have any truth in it?
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSuKgz3LweE
Or this
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOLnXkP5i2c
Or near Petra Or near Egypt Or....Or...Too many theories...
I suggest there is more to come...
The main point is Qoran has not named many cities except few. Yathrib was mentioned so we can say Mohammed was in Yathrib at sometime or was he? Where is Yathrib?...
Also Qoran has chosen for us the investigative path about everything(1736). I suppose we keep on investigating.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Salam (good logic) and other..
Yes as you say can't b convinced.. But makka is no where these truths of words of God. One thing we can b thorough with where Mohamed lived before migrate is not definitely makka.same way rest of the truth will b out. Mohamed is not isrelete Prophet.. For sure.. Anyone who reads QURAN would get it.. Can anyone say what is real Israel (then n now) according to QURAN .. Though evidence and the names and the jews and Christian density would suggest it.. Children of Israel is according to Quran seems always the people of the book but not mushrik either.coz when God call children is really, God does not mean mushrik as per the tone of verses. Almost all of them knew what is faith and book.. God says children of isreal really were considered high than any.. If there were mushrik, it won't b said in that manner.. They believe it not is another matter. But they were people of the book. But not Mohamed n his people. Mohamed and his people hardly believe in it or knew what is faith. It's hard to think being in Jerusalem n not knowing what is faith.. Can't b in Jerusalem.. Yes Yathrib mentioned but after migrated.. Point here is not where prophet lived after, but before migrated, coz before migration he was living amongst masjid Al haram as per Quran.. God at one point says to children of Israel, jews n Christian, that Mohamed has more claim than you about Abraham.. What does it mean.. Coz among yahud n nasara definitely Muslim as per Quran.. Then why it was highlighted unless Mohamed is from Abraham place or nearby.. More to think -
Peace jKhan.
For me it is a city near Yathrib ?There is also some history on Jerusalem. Is that another focal point for another earlier people?
Can the "focal point" change?Why not? Can "Masjid Al Haram" be at different places? Why not?
Perhaps we are looking for one city when in fact there are two or more cities?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Further yachting and Al Marina cannot b same places.. Coz Al Madina also mentioned in Quran.. But if u carefully read even after migration prophet didn't seems to b lived in Madina.. Coz Allah says hypocrites are with you around and as well among people of Madina which u not know.. Yathrib suits most probably, and it's away from Roman influence too.. Where is Yathrib?
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Sorry for misspelling .... God says the people of the book knew masjid alharam as they know their own sons.. If it is Jerusalem no need to say it, coz they are living there and it's part of their life.. But if it is another place but well connected to their life. If people of the book knows it why not Mohamed knew if he is living in Jerusalem.. Yes focal points could b different, but first house and masjid haram is at same location.. These people of the book knew the history very well through their books but not Mohamed.. They knew what is masjid Al haram. And they knew the first house was there.. But they had their important places as focal points.. Probably coz the first house was occupied by mushrik while people of the book were revealed.. And their place of living is not either near to first house.. Just first house n not the only house. Right..? First house from Abraham and after his progeny, outdated for Muslims since mushrik lived their for ages taking the first house as their own and with veneration .. While important people were living in Israel.. But with the advent of Mohamed this first house again become into limelight coz its his place.. And after his death again dimmed out.. Now it is no more.. As I strongly believe that's focal points are to spread the Gods message by especially Prophets.. Without prophets around there is no meaning of focal points.. Now all messages delivered n no need of focal points.. Same as chapter 62 .. On the day of congregation. Leave business n make Salat n listen to what prophet says of God's message.. Coz its a kind of focal point since lots of people gather for business, so good opportunity to spread message.. So focal point of haj for spreading message is huge. Coz those who are living while prophets are around deserve to know what prophets are delivering.. Not by heresay.. Prophets duty is to deliver in a focal point other than the situational messages of it's own .. So people witness in haj and get benefit.. Why to get message through heresay when prophets are living.. And when there was no book available to read since messages are coming at regular intervals.. So every year people are updated with new messages till it get completed..
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Read the below verse pls..
4610 Say, "Have you considered if the Qur'an was from Allah , and you disbelieved in it while a witness from the Children of Israel has testified to something similar and believed while you were arrogant... ?" Indeed, Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.
Definitely Mohamed was positioned very close proximity to Isreal but not Isrealplease read all the quranic verses where the children of Isreal appear.. if God will, someone would find a clue with certainty..
