Re: Why is there a difference
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Peace,
I already suspected the freeminds-translation approaches this verse a bit wrong, it is true the 'couple' are in masculine form, which why i checked further before i answered. I asked Dr.Shabbir and this is his answer
Wa Salamun alaikum, dear AY!
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WALLAZAANI -- MINKUM is not necessarily male. It means 'the two of you'.
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Homosexuals seldom get into a heterosexual wedlock and thus their lewdness is not likely to disrupt family life.
This is the understanding of a life-long student.
QXPii
415 Protection of honor and chastity for men and women, both, is the cornerstone of a virtuous society (1732, 424). If any woman or a group of women spread sexual immorality or lewdness in the society, it is required that the appropriate court takes four honorable and reliable witnesses. If their testimony corroborates with other evidence (1226), confine them to their houses, since immorality is as contagious as good conduct. This confinement would be for an indefinite period, unless such women seek the Way of Allah, such as repentance and amendment, or the singles among them get honorably married.
416 If the two of you spread such immorality or lewdness in the society, both of them shall be punished by the appropriate court of law. If they repent and amend, leave them alone. Allah is the Acceptor of repentance, Merciful. (This includes homosexuality, male and female).
417 Allah graciously accepts the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance, and then return quickly to the right conduct. Allah turns to them in Mercy. He is the Knower, the Wise.
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Peace
On a side note
- Homosexuals seldom get into a heterosexual wedlock and thus their lewdness is not likely to disrupt family life.
I disagree with him on that issue. In the Egyptian incident of the raiding and torture of those who admitted and didn't admit to being homosexual, it appears that many homosexuals marry and even have children in order to blend into society, while secretly practicing their homosexual tendencies.
If you'd like more info there is a very extensive report of the entire incident, along with direct testimonials of the accused, and video clips of the court proceedings. I'll post the page of the video clips, towards the beginning there is a link to the full report.http//hrw.org/video/2004/egypt/
While I wholeheartedly disagree with the lifestyles homosexuals choose to lead, torture, in my opinion, seems to be the least conducive to reform in these instances.
Peace all
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Peace,
Yes, i know. I live in Holland, the first country who allowed homo-sexual marriages if i'm correct. What he means is that the verse 416 refers to a person having lewdness sex, married or not. And not that the verses refer to homo-sexual sex in particular. But i do agree with your post, i have also heard this a lot, and is sad they have to hide their feelings.
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Peace,
I already suspected the freeminds-translation approaches this verse a bit wrong, it is true the 'couple' are in masculine form, which why i checked further before i answered. I asked Dr.Shabbir and this is his answer
Wa Salamun alaikum, dear AY!
-
WALLAZAANI -- MINKUM is not necessarily male. It means 'the two of you'.
-
Homosexuals seldom get into a heterosexual wedlock and thus their lewdness is not likely to disrupt family life.
This is the understanding of a life-long student.
QXPii
415 Protection of honor and chastity for men and women, both, is the cornerstone of a virtuous society (1732, 424). If any woman or a group of women spread sexual immorality or lewdness in the society, it is required that the appropriate court takes four honorable and reliable witnesses. If their testimony corroborates with other evidence (1226), confine them to their houses, since immorality is as contagious as good conduct. This confinement would be for an indefinite period, unless such women seek the Way of Allah, such as repentance and amendment, or the singles among them get honorably married.
416 If the two of you spread such immorality or lewdness in the society, both of them shall be punished by the appropriate court of law. If they repent and amend, leave them alone. Allah is the Acceptor of repentance, Merciful. (This includes homosexuality, male and female).
417 Allah graciously accepts the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance, and then return quickly to the right conduct. Allah turns to them in Mercy. He is the Knower, the Wise.
Peace Arnold Yasin
Just a quick thought (I am away from my tools so the following is from memory) 415 must refer to women due to the word nisa, surely?
And the word translated as 'sexually deviant conduct' - where does 'sexually' come into it?
Take care
Roshan
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Peace,
He translated it and put that in to make it more clear what this verse talks about, as for 416, you have to take the best and widest meaning possible, as Shabbir says, it doesn't refer to men or women specificaly, so you have to take the widest meaning possible.
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Salaam all
- And the two women who commit lewdness
The Arabic version is
So, it is not two women. But why (nisaa'ikum) and not (alnisaa'? Does it mean your wives?
Verse 246 concerns mere accusation of the wife (or husband).This one speaks about proved guilt, and I think it does not concern just the "wives", but the husbands as well. The address is to the generic male, so the feminine it entails is also generic (similar example of the generic feminine is found in verses 443 and 56 "..O believers!....or have been in sexual contact with women and you find no water, perform tayammum..."
Now the Qur'aan has covered punishment for proved adultry (241); accusation of peoplein genral (244; this verse is another example of the generic female); accusation between husband and wife (246) and now proved guilt of wife/husband (415).
So, who is left? Whom does verse 415 concern? I have no idea!
While thinking, I suggest you take into consideration that it is about two people, irrespective of gender, because we do not have a verse speaking about "two women" to balance " " in the beginning of this verse, so we will take it as a "generic masculine".
Good luck!
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Salamm Roshan
The verse does refer to women who commit lewdness. My question is which women? Is it just women or "your wives/husbands"? The verse does not stop at ( ة, but adds ( )" among your women aka wives).
We already have two verses with a different punishment (hundred lashes) for men and women in general. Are these two verses for unmarried people, contradicting the traditional theory?
The following verse is the one I can't figure out ( and the two "masculine" who commit it..)unless it concerns gay men and women.
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Yep it is about lesbaians and gays, therefore there is no contradiction
Salam
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two verses for unmarried people, contradicting the traditional theory?
there is no contradiction
You are right. I should have written (confirming the traditional theory)
Sister Samia
I'm talking about a contradiction in the Quran within itself, I really care less what the traditions say
Cheers
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Yep it is about lesbaians and gays, therefore there is no contradiction
SalamPeace Ahmed Baghat
Some people seem to feel that 'fahisha' has a sexual content. I cannot see this myself. Therefore I am unable to believe that this verse refers to homosexuality. Furthermore the next verse (416) never mentions 'fahisha' (at least from my understanding). I currently feel that for such a vague and undefinable term, confinment to your house is very strong punishment.
The problem I have with your understanding is that male homosexuality is far more destructive, from my understanding, that female homosexuality. This would lead me to believe that any 'punishment' for men would be stronger, if anything.
Roshan
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Yep it is about lesbaians and gays, therefore there is no contradiction
SalamPeace Ahmed Baghat
Peace mate
Some people seem to feel that 'fahisha' has a sexual content.
That's right but I'm not one of those, I know what Fahisha means exactly in arabic, it means an awaful act regardless it relates to sex or not
I cannot see this myself.
of course everyone will see what they see
Therefore I am unable to believe that this verse refers to homosexuality.
ok, but your argument above is very weak because simply you are judging which act it more aweful from your perspective "a human perspective", however the One who made the law is a God not a human, therefore it has to be according to His perspective not yours neither mine
Furthermore the next verse (416) never mentions 'fahisha' (at least from my understanding). I currently feel that for such a vague and undefinable term, confinment to your house is very strong punishment.
I guess if they go to the women jail, it will be paradise for them, i actually believe that the solution provoided by Allah is the best to fight lesbianism
The problem I have with your understanding is that male homosexuality is far more destructive, from my understanding, that female homosexuality. This would lead me to believe that any 'punishment' for men would be stronger, if anything.
not sure about which one is worse, i see both of the acts as Fahisha and haram
Salam
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Peace Roshan
Just to let you know, it seems to me that the punishment for the gays is far more harsh than the lesbians punishment
if you read again you will see in 415 that the punishment for the lesbians is to restrict them to the homes until they die or Allah give them another way out, this is based on the validity of 4 trusted witnesses, no physical harm mentioned whatsoever
in the case of gays we see that the 4 witnesses are not required, as well the punishment is "Iezohoma" "", this actualy means "to cause harm", and to translate it as "annoy" is laughable indeed
therefore it seems the punsishment is exacly as you expected it is more severe for thr men because we should harm them, for women we should not harm them rather restrict them to the houses until death or possibly Allah may cause another way out for them, and again in the case of women the validity of 4 trusted witnesses are required unlike gays
Salam
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Selam all
in the case of gays we see that the 4 witnesses are not required, as well the punishment is "Iezohoma" "", this actualy means "to cause harm", and to translate it as "annoy" is laughable indeed
therefore it seems the punsishment is exacly as you expected it is more severe for thr men because we should harm them, for women we should not harm them rather restrict them to the houses until death or possibly Allah may cause another way out for them, and again in the case of women the validity of 4 trusted witnesses are required unlike gays
"Iezohoma" "", this actualy means "to cause harm",
Now it makes sense but how should we harm them? elektro voodoo rotfl
Peace all
FJ -
Selam all
in the case of gays we see that the 4 witnesses are not required, as well the punishment is "Iezohoma" "", this actualy means "to cause harm", and to translate it as "annoy" is laughable indeed
therefore it seems the punsishment is exacly as you expected it is more severe for thr men because we should harm them, for women we should not harm them rather restrict them to the houses until death or possibly Allah may cause another way out for them, and again in the case of women the validity of 4 trusted witnesses are required unlike gays
"Iezohoma" "", this actualy means "to cause harm",
Now it makes sense but how should we harm them? elektro voodoo rotfl
Peace all
FJWell, I guess it was left to the Musharie, i.e. the one who is qualified to do that, however this is much better for the gays than being killed as the OT ordered the jews and the christians to do because to harm them is far less than to kill them and is far more than home detention
I say something like adultry punishment is very suitable and it should be in public as well
Salam
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Salaam all
Well, I guess it was left to the Musharie
I agree, but I think it's anywhere less than the 100 lashes for adultry because the 100 lashes were referred to as (torture), which is harsher than (harm).
in the case of gays we see that the 4 witnesses are not required
I do not think so. 4 witnesses were already mentioned, as well as fahisha. In this verse fahisha was not mentioned, but instead there was a pronoun and we immediately related it to fahisha. I think repeating 4 witnesses is redundant, and do not forget if 4 witnesses are not required then the door is wide open for false accusation.
I also do not think that this is for gay men only. It is for both. If verse 425 was about gay women, words in both verses should be balanced (and the two (fem) among you) as it says (the two (masculine) among you).
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Salaam all
Well, I guess it was left to the Musharie
I agree, but I think it's anywhere less than the 100 lashes for adultry because the 100 lashes were referred to as (torture), which is harsher than (harm).
I totally agree sister, i actually meant sort of lashes like adultery, but I agree with you that it should be less
in the case of gays we see that the 4 witnesses are not required
I do not think so. 4 witnesses were already mentioned, as well as fahisha. In this verse fahisha was not mentioned, but instead there was a pronoun and we immediately related it to fahisha. I think repeating 4 witnesses is redundant, and do not forget if 4 witnesses are not required then the door is wide open for false accusation.
Well, I thought for a glance that I may have to agree with you however I read the verses again in Arabic thoroughly and I could not see it fit so let's look at the two verses in details
15- And the women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out.
16- And the two men who commit it from amongst you, then you shall harm them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful.
(15)
(16)-> Let?s start with the lesbians ? And the women who commit lewdness?, as you can see I removed the word TWO, because the verse is talking in PLURAL not dual regarding the women, the condition that follows next clearly indicates that this condition is only for the women ? ?, ? you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you?, can you see the word ? ?, ?over them?, IT IS ONLY FEMININE, ?Alaihuna?, i.e. this condition is only for women, if it meant to be for both ?men and women? then it should be ?Alaihum?, see how it can?t fit.
-> with the gays, we never see any call for witnessing, we also see that it is talking in dual, as well we can clearly see that the harm that should inflicted upon them SHOULD CONTINUE UNTILE TWO CONDITIONS ARE MET ? ?, ? then you shall harm them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone?, this is clearly very harsh because the harm will continue until, ? they repent and amend? and this should make the punishment for the gays far harsher than the women, it can also last with the gays a life time if they don?t repent and amend and being harmed a life time is far worse than being home detained a life time
-> actually the difference in punishment shows the wisdom of our God, because in the case of women being confined at home, there will be their husbands looking after them, in the case of men they have to work and support families not being confined at homes, hence we have to harm them until they repent and amend, even if this harm will last a life time because the verse was clear that we only leave them in peace if the repent and amend, ? If they repent and amend, then leave them alone?
I also do not think that this is for gay men only. It is for both. If verse 425 was about gay women, words in both verses should be balanced (and the two (fem) among you) as it says (the two (masculine) among you).
you mean 415?
Well I could not make sense from the above, sorry, anyway 415 was clealy specific that the condition of 4 witnesses applies only to the lesbians ? ?, ? you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you?, can you see the word ? ?, ?over them?, IT IS ONLY FEMININE, ?Alaihuna?, i.e. this condition is only for women, if it meant to be for both ?men and women? then it should be ?Alaihum?, see how it can?t fit.
Salam
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Salaam All
In verse 4 25 "...and after they have been taken in wedlock, if they commit "fahisha", their punishment is half that of MohSanaat".
No mention of witnesses. Can we say we do not need witnesses?can you see the word ? ?, ?over them?, IT IS ONLY FEMININE
Of course it is and should be. What I am saying is that, Arabic sociolinguistics is built on Western sociolinguistics which states that "he" contains "she" but not the reverse. I say that The Qur'aan has its own sociolinguistics and we should not apply the rules of human - and late- sociolinguistics to it. Since the Revalation is addressing both genders, we should stick to this in EVERY verse unless a verse explicitly states otherwise. Now if you can convince me that these verses address MEN only, I will agree with your understanding.
According to the Devine sociolinguistics, if the address is to both genders, it will appear in the masculine "generic not real", and when it entails the opposite sex, it comes in the feminine form (also generic, not real). Since this verse talks about (nisaai'kum your wives) and since we have no verse for (rijalikum or any other word indicating your husbands) I will say that this verse covers both genders. Otherwise, it will seem that Allah is punishing wives only, because the next verse speaks of two males only, not necessarily married. I do not think verses 15 and 16 are linked by the same subject. They, however, concern both genders.
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peace
He translated it and put that in to make it more clear what this verse talks about,
according to his oppinion. As does anyone else apprently.
I know what Fahisha means exactly in arabic, it means an awaful act regardless it relates to sex or not
Is till dont understand how this becomes homosexuals, especially if it is regardless of it relating to sex or not. How does an awfull act translate into homosexuality? Is war homosexuality too?
ok, but your argument above is very weak because simply you are judging which act it more aweful from your perspective "a human perspective", however the One who made the law is a God not a human, therefore it has to be according to His perspective not yours neither mine
However to understand "the one", we need to;
He translated it and put that in to make it more clear what this verse talks about
according to his oppinion. As does anyone else apprently.
so the oppinion of "the one" is in reality in the eyes of the reciever, not the book.
of course everyone will see what they see
as clearly demonstrated above.
It must be something else. it makes no sense that God would order such a fuzzy term for punishment for something that itself appears to be fuzzy. Why? because this approach creates subcultures, and secret societys, and they can prove to be very dangerous. If you have it out in the open, you know what youre dealing with. I feel the same way about neo nazis btw. Let them talk themself out of voice, rather than serving them a martyrium, that will strengthen them in their wrong doing. Im not saying the Quran is wrong im saying that this approach/explanation makes little sense, in actual reality. All i haev seen so far is peoples personal biases, but an agreeable understanding is yet to come.
Altso while we are at the subject. How can anyone make sense out of flocking for adultry?
Peace