Re: Why is there a difference
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Peace magi. A guy as perceptive as you should know that for every verse there is a subjective opinion by someone on it,(with corresponding so-called objective evidence to back it up. .),and that is indeed creating lots of confusion,fuzziness and 'secret societies'/cults/sects....It all comes down to brainwashing,conditioning,and the need to make sense of the persons subjective world,regardless of the realities of the actual real world....Seat of the pants theorising,delusions,illusions,wishful thinking,blind following due to lack of personal thought/research,mixed with bits of truth...
As for flogging for adultery,the verses are debated on this forum to mean public indecency,homosexuality,adultery,formication etc,etc....No clear verifed reality or loose agreement....And what of the need for 4 witnesses,why not 1,2 or 3? How many witnesses needed for rape,because if someone tells me 4,i will tell them they are an idiot and delusional.....Since when did rapes or adultery happen with 4 people casually witnessing these events....? Man,even if there are no witnesses for a rape or an affair,surely pregnancy or other physical evidence (dna,scientific evidence etc,etc.) will be a major factor in the abscence of the four fairytale witnesses?
And what in heavens name will whipping a person do to stop them commiting adultery? If its an effective deterrent/punishment then why isnt every every crime such as theft,lying,fighting etc,etc carrying the same punishment in the quran,so as to act as an effective deterrent/punishment for all crimes...If whipping can deter/punish an adulterer,why shouldnt it also deter/punish a thief or a liar,or is god/quran being inconsistent/irrational here?
The more i read and compare with real-life reality,the more i see the total irrelevance and non-applicability of these issues to real-life...
Finally,im sure the priests and interpretors will see to it that many commited relationships will end up being termed as 'adultery' because they dont adhere to a ritual understanding of marriage,as decreed by these priests,and so will be punished with the requisite sadistic whippings...you think our current societies are cloak and dagger and oppressive/manipulative.....? If these folks ever get into power it will be taliban and thought police all over again......Spanish inqusition anyone?
Ps; watch the apologetics and different interpretations now fly in from various posters....Ideologically,delusionally and dogmatically commited to this divine book,regardless of the human suffering and practical consequences... -
Wow. No apologetics from me. Just wanted to say though it seems like you genuinely and intensely hate the quran. i mean that shines through clearly in your posts. My question is, why bother with it then? If this book makes you so frustrated and unhappy, why do you still care? I'm really curious, not trying to be mean. If I disliked a book this much, I'm pretty sure I'd just let it go and move on with my life; wouldnt be worth the unhappiness.
Is it because you have this need to get others to agree with you? Again, not trying to be mean. I'm just trying to understand why you even concern yourself with it at all.
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Peace Enquier
I have to agree to some of the things you say but this bit about the thought police getting into in power .I will let you into a little secret the thought police are all ready in power .
Cave dr I don't think enquirer is the only one who thinks he has to get othere people to agree with him I believe it is a human trait.
Peace Salim
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peace
And what in heavens name will whipping a person do to stop them commiting adultery?
Well they will likely be dead for one. Unless we adapt the "civil" practice of whipping, then jailing, then whipping etc. untill the "dept" is payed. Other than that i agree with you a long way down the line as usual. I think we should try and understand these issues rather than just settle for what is obviously insane, and out in the weeds, or discard it all together.
If our set criterion is that the Quran contains no errors. Then obviously there is something wrong with our understanding and translation, as it pr. the book itself is out of line with reality. When i use my heart, my mind and eyes, it is blatantly obvious, that the offered solution to these problems does not work, have no real intimidating effect, and will not prevent or stop adultry. As you say all the debates on the matter has lead nowhere and everywhere. However, all that has been suggested related to whatever is so punishable has been sex and marriage. Are there other options than those, that may not be entirely obvious?
I belive that homosexuality is not natural, because it is directly against the observable intend. Plus it seems to come along with a load if problems. How did it become problems? By people hunting them. They went underground, started to lobby, and along with their soddomite elite freinds, a powerfull gay movement was born. Subtly changing peoples view on it, even make it go from unnatural to cool. All because they where driven into the shadows. And these are the facts folks.
What does it solve to give people house arrest, but to make them angry and vengefull and even more transgressing? Do we have trustworthy testamony that jails work? I dont think we do. On the contrary, both isolation and jail in general has a tendency to breed sociopaths. If you werent nuts when you got there, you will be when you leave.
So im suggesting that we are looking at the verses in a wong understanding entirely. But i have no suggestions to what alternatives there is. The reason we keep comming back to these understandings is because we had them, and the bias beforehand. This is no place to start truthseeking from.
peace
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Peace Magi
I believe to truly understand the Quran you have to come away from the idea of being a Quran Alone Follower and look at your self as a student of the Quran . As a student you can use your intelligence and reason to understand verses and then decide what is right or wrong .
For example if a teacher teaches you to value your life to look after your self and be in charge of your destiny ,then to see if the student has learnt anything the teacher tests them by telling them to kill them selves .the students does one of 3 things .
Follow the teachers command and kill them selves ( BLIND FOLLOWER)
Believe in what the teacher has said but ignore it ( FOLLOWER)
Use his or her intelligence and reason and stand up and disagree with the teachers (INDIVIDUAL)
My reasoning tells me that Quran is trying to lead us to become more in control as individuals and wants us to make decisions as individuals and has inbuilt test so that we can check our self?s as we go along studying The Quran .
We have to remember that we are all individually responsible for our actions and J day we can not blame other?s even The Quran.
Peace Salim
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Peace
Yeah i hear you bro...like
http//www.yellowstone-online.com/octoberpeace2/17.jpg
;D
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Salaam all
We have to remember the "limits" set by Allah. Sometimes it is the lowest limit and sometimes it is the upper limit., some
times both limits are set for some issue. I see a lot of arguemet concerning the number of salaat. If we find that more than one arguements are valid, we should accept that 2 salaats are the minimum limit. You can pray as many times as you wish, but not to go below two salaats per day.The penalties in particular are called limits. If we believe that the Qur'aan is not limited by time nor by space, we should not argue about the kind of punishment because we have the freedom to go below an upper limit. Maybe sometime, somewhere, some people will find the punishment we consider barbaric, very humane and appropriate!! The mistke is when we jump unnecessarily to apply the upper limit when it is not suitable for our mentality or our time.
Salaam all
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Peace cavey,salqan,magi and all.
Cavey; yes,i believe it is a human trait to want some people to agree with you....Dont worry about being mean to me,ive been through much tougher criticism than this forum....im married for petes sake...
Also,to be honest i dont really hate the quran,i dislike its being used as an idol,and its being used to justify oppression and injustice....i dislike it as much as i dislike the bible or pop-idol....I will also state despite some problems in life,which everbody has,i am extremely happy now ive let go of my idolisation of the quran and religious dogma...Im just trying to spread some of my happiness and some ideas that may help others.....Take it easy young man....Magi; i like your spirit bro,i really do,just realise that the truer picture of reality comes through your own life-experiences and knowledge from many,many sources which can at least be partially verified...please dont confuse yourself by thinking we have to understand all the quran or even that we have to refer to it for guidance....Millions walk the path of morality and happiness without even any book or religion....something to think about bro...God is reality my man...And we are reality to...
salqan; i liked your little analysis of the follower/individual and being a student of the quran etc,i also partially agree that some thought manipulation is already in effect in society....I will ask you one question,why dont we be students of reality/life/experience/wisdom rather than referring back constantly to a book as a benchmark,shouldnt the benchmark be reality,cause and effect and practical verification?
Peace all. handshake muscle
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Also,to be honest i dont really hate the quran,i dislike its being used as an idol,
Peace
You understand that if someone believes the Qur'an is from God, and they follow/study/read it, it's not idolatry. It is, from their point of view, following God. Idolatry is putting things up beside God. When that person (who believes the Qur'an is from God), follows the Qur'an, that person is following God's words, thus, that person is following God. I hope you can see this. I'm not trying to win or persuade you of anything, I just want to point that out, because that's how it is.
Peace.
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Peace
Here is another take Openmind.
You understand that if someone believes the Qur'an is from God, and they follow/study/read it, it's not idolatry
Those are 3 very different things. And the reason im putting attention to this, is becasue you proceed to say.
It is, from their point of view, following God
This is the same logic applied by people who take hadith for granted.
What the Quran tells us is to follow noone but God. That is the main theme running all through it.Idolatry is putting things up beside God
If we are to follow nobody but God, isnt following the Quran a troublesome statement? Or is the Quran God? We are told again and again to use our senses and mind, to observe things around us to verify God. Not the Quran. We verify God by observing and the Quran reminds us of this. So in this, the Quran leads the way to what you must understand, but it doesnt take you there.
And my reasoning is based on how i percieve God in my life as a working helpfull force that is very eacy to access. However i was only offered this access when i broke down my own illusions, which has to be the single most unpleasant thing i have ever tried. Especially those surrounding the systems we accept "because we should respect the place we live"...if that place is deeply satanic. No we shall not respect such a thing. And if you keep feeding such a beast, you are not paying attention to God, and as a consequence God is not paying attention to you, nomatter how well you feel you understand the Quran. You just dont get it.
The Qurans tells you to follow only that which is observably true. Again, if we are not to end in a catch, then obviously this goes for the book itself aswell. If i can observe bad advice in the book, then how can i folllow it, when both logic, my heart, confirms its not true? The thing is, when we reprogram ourselfes entirely, and rid of those things were told to rid ourselfes of (like tyranny nomatter how subtle), then things that just arent right starts to glow in the dark. And it is very far from the selfrightiousness i felt when i first understood i should "follow the Quran".
@Salgan - my backspine is gone thats how much i agree with what you said.
@enquirer - thanks bro
my 2 C's and i hope nobody takes offence.
Peace
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Peace,
Amgi,because there are things in the Quran which were not known in those days. i know you don't believe this, but you cannot prove muhammed could have known these things. There were some things known in India and so on, but not all of these things, and all of them correctly chosen, plus none of these facts ended up in the hadith. This cannot be explained. But people
fftopic
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Peace Enquirer
I see a student as a person who is constantly in search of knowledge and does not have a benchmark, As life is constantly moving forward , studies should also be constantly moving forward not just be focused on one subject but many subjects as life in it self has many facets to it.
So to answer your question Enquirer it is a must for an individual to be a student of the following reality/ life/ experience/ wisdom before they start on studying any other discipline.
Peace salim jedi
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Amgi,because there are things in the Quran which were not known in those days. i know you don't believe this, but you cannot prove muhammed could have known these things.
Peace
and you cannot prove that mohammad came with it, as he is only known from hadith and legend. What you are doing is entering murky waters, to defend a point of view. Dont forget that the pre-arabs was like the vikings, master seamen and navigators and traders. That several places in the general area you find the main world trade ores of the time. In fact, it wouldnt make sense that such a scripture evolved anywhere BUT there, where all the strings connected.
Besides its skewed logic aswell. because there are many miracles that DID NOT make it to the Quran. That are only to be found in other relegions. Knowledge they had that didnt make it. So to say all of it is chosen correctly is moot. Because compared to what?
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Peace,
This is off-topic. But you cannot explain that ALL facts mentioned in the Quran are 100% correct, while in other traditions, only 40-60% are correct. But this is for the Quranic divinity section, remember that topic you never finished?
offtopic
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Peace all
To be truly free we have to become our own masters and not live in an illusion others have set and perpetuated .The more we live in the illusion the more we will be oppressed and enslaved .
Read and do your research and rely on your senses to free your self?s .
Peace Salim jedi
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however the One who made the law is a God not a human, therefore it has to be according to His perspective not yours neither mine
Peace Ahmed Bahgat
I just wanted to comment on this statement from your previous thread. Accepted that God is the one who judges and His law is the Law etc. However, as you can see what is God's law can sometimes be upto debate. I think, therefore it is important to understand why God may have said something and to always make sure that we can justify our morality.
Otherwise we are not better than the Sunnis who claim that their god allows them to opress women. Of course, they feel that their god could never be wrong because everything he says is correct! Do you understand the danger of the circular argument?
Roshan
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Salaam all
We have to remember the "limits" set by Allah. Sometimes it is the lowest limit and sometimes it is the upper limit., some
times both limits are set for some issue. I see a lot of arguemet concerning the number of salaat. If we find that more than one arguements are valid, we should accept that 2 salaats are the minimum limit. You can pray as many times as you wish, but not to go below two salaats per day.The penalties in particular are called limits. If we believe that the Qur'aan is not limited by time nor by space, we should not argue about the kind of punishment because we have the freedom to go below an upper limit. Maybe sometime, somewhere, some people will find the punishment we consider barbaric, very humane and appropriate!! The mistke is when we jump unnecessarily to apply the upper limit when it is not suitable for our mentality or our time.
Salaam all
peace
I am not closed to this interpretation. Except with salat, but i guess thats for everyone individually to figure out what is. To me personally it makes no sense to do it 2 times a day, because either you uphold the salat (connection) or you dont uphold it.
As for limits, sure, i can go along with this. And in the context of when the book arrived, it makes sense that the maximum punishment is something in the line of what it is. It doesnt remove, however the fact, that as a tool of betterment, it makes no sense. And this can be observed. So why are God giving bad advice. Or is the intention that sinners, are punished in a way likely to make them more transgressing out of anger. -
Peace
This is the same logic applied by people who take hadith for granted.
What the Quran tells us is to follow noone but God. That is the main theme running all through it.Yes, Magi, but you see that if someone believes the Qur'an is from God, following the Qur'an is following God. This is simple logic. Replace the word "Qur'an" with "God's words"
If we are to follow nobody but God, isnt following the Quran a troublesome statement?
Not at all, It makes perfect sense, if you believe the Qur'an to be from God.
Or is the Quran God?
The Qur'an is God's words
We are told again and again to use our senses and mind, to observe things around us to verify God. Not the Quran.
Do you not see that, that in itself is following the Qur'an? Listening to what the Qur'an says and doing what it says is following the Qur'an and following God. I hope you understand that when I say follow I don't mean worship the book itself or something, I mean to read it, study it, and do what it says.
We verify God by observing and the Quran reminds us of this. So in this, the Quran leads the way to what you must understand, but it doesnt take you there.
Again, when the Qur'an says to do something, and we do it, we're ultimately following God.
And my reasoning is based on how i percieve God in my life as a working helpfull force that is very eacy to access. However i was only offered this access when i broke down my own illusions, which has to be the single most unpleasant thing i have ever tried. Especially those surrounding the systems we accept "because we should respect the place we live"...if that place is deeply satanic. No we shall not respect such a thing. And if you keep feeding such a beast, you are not paying attention to God, and as a consequence God is not paying attention to you, nomatter how well you feel you understand the Quran. You just dont get it.
This comes down to belief.
The Qurans tells you to follow only that which is observably true. Again, if we are not to end in a catch, then obviously this goes for the book itself aswell. If i can observe bad advice in the book, then how can i folllow it, when both logic, my heart, confirms its not true? The thing is, when we reprogram ourselfes entirely, and rid of those things were told to rid ourselfes of (like tyranny nomatter how subtle), then things that just arent right starts to glow in the dark. And it is very far from the selfrightiousness i felt when i first understood i should "follow the Quran".
I understand what you're saying, and you do have a point. But the thing is, I see so many proofs for the Qur'an's divinity. Things that are just amazing. I use these proofs to verify the Qur'an is actually divine, and thus I follow all of it. And another thing is, things in the Qur'an line up with my way of thinking and logic so well so I rarely have that problem.
Thank you, magi, for giving your point of view and calmly starting a fruitful discussion. Lately, it's been rare.
Peace.
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however the One who made the law is a God not a human, therefore it has to be according to His perspective not yours neither mine
Peace Ahmed Bahgat
Peace bro
I just wanted to comment on this statement from your previous thread. Accepted that God is the one who judges and His law is the Law etc.
Ok, but part of His laws that humans enforce His punishment over the ones who perpetrate His laws
However, as you can see what is God's law can sometimes be upto debate.
Not just God?s law rather anything is debatable if the humans want to debate it even by resorting to non sense, they debate for the sake of debating not for the sake of logic and benefit to mankind.
This is all part of the freewill test to believe what God says or not
I think, therefore it is important to understand why God may have said something and to always make sure that we can justify our morality.
Not really because He is testing our belief at the same time as He is testing our affairs between ourselves, therefore there are many things that may look illogical under the human perspective but in no way to be as such under the All Knowledgable Allah perspective
Otherwise we are not better than the Sunnis
Firstly who is ?We??, you mean the Quran Alone sect?
Well I don?t follow that sect neither I follow the sunni sect nor any sect for that matter, however I see the sunnis more conservative regarding conjectures and Quran manipulations
who claim that their god allows them to opress women.
I never heard this from a sunni, and if you did then how do you know that he is right, do you believe what any humans tells you?
Of course, they feel that their god could never be wrong because everything he says is correct! Do you understand the danger of the circular argument?
RoshanI do understand however, a wise man once said ?see if it makes sense then follow it?, and what makes sense is this
If we talk belief in a God then we are talking following what He says exactly, We can?t tell Him that He is wrong because He knows and we don?t know, that is what He said about Himself and us
See if a believer in Allah think that He is wrong, then that believer is not really a believer, simply a clear cut hypocrite
For the unbelievers, I wonder why they bother with the believers?, they should just enjoy life and don?t worry about the believers, because they made their decision using their own freewill to unbelieve same as the believers who used their freewill to believe
This always indicate to me that most unbelievers don?t feel safe and secure, on the other hand the Quran told us the believers will feel safe and secure when they remember God, huge difference that is in life and I tell you bro it will be one hell of a difference on the JD
Salam
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What you are doing is entering murky waters, to defend a point of view
you are doing the same....