Re: Why is there a difference

Roshan

however the One who made the law is a God not a human, therefore it has to be according to His perspective not yours neither mine

Peace Ahmed Bahgat

I just wanted to comment on this statement from your previous thread. Accepted that God is the one who judges and His law is the Law etc. However, as you can see what is God's law can sometimes be upto debate. I think, therefore it is important to understand why God may have said something and to always make sure that we can justify our morality.

Otherwise we are not better than the Sunnis who claim that their god allows them to opress women. Of course, they feel that their god could never be wrong because everything he says is correct! Do you understand the danger of the circular argument?

Roshan

unknownuser

Salaam all

We have to remember the "limits" set by Allah. Sometimes it is the lowest limit and sometimes it is the upper limit., some
times both limits are set for some issue. I see a lot of arguemet concerning the number of salaat. If we find that more than one arguements are valid, we should accept that 2 salaats are the minimum limit. You can pray as many times as you wish, but not to go below two salaats per day.

The penalties in particular are called limits. If we believe that the Qur'aan is not limited by time nor by space, we should not argue about the kind of punishment because we have the freedom to go below an upper limit. Maybe sometime, somewhere, some people will find the punishment we consider barbaric, very humane and appropriate!! The mistke is when we jump unnecessarily to apply the upper limit when it is not suitable for our mentality or our time.

Salaam all

peace

I am not closed to this interpretation. Except with salat, but i guess thats for everyone individually to figure out what is. To me personally it makes no sense to do it 2 times a day, because either you uphold the salat (connection) or you dont uphold it.
As for limits, sure, i can go along with this. And in the context of when the book arrived, it makes sense that the maximum punishment is something in the line of what it is. It doesnt remove, however the fact, that as a tool of betterment, it makes no sense. And this can be observed. So why are God giving bad advice. Or is the intention that sinners, are punished in a way likely to make them more transgressing out of anger.

Navid

Peace

This is the same logic applied by people who take hadith for granted.
What the Quran tells us is to follow noone but God. That is the main theme running all through it.

Yes, Magi, but you see that if someone believes the Qur'an is from God, following the Qur'an is following God. This is simple logic. Replace the word "Qur'an" with "God's words"

If we are to follow nobody but God, isnt following the Quran a troublesome statement?

Not at all, It makes perfect sense, if you believe the Qur'an to be from God.

Or is the Quran God?

The Qur'an is God's words

We are told again and again to use our senses and mind, to observe things around us to verify God. Not the Quran.

Do you not see that, that in itself is following the Qur'an? Listening to what the Qur'an says and doing what it says is following the Qur'an and following God. I hope you understand that when I say follow I don't mean worship the book itself or something, I mean to read it, study it, and do what it says.

We verify God by observing and the Quran reminds us of this. So in this, the Quran leads the way to what you must understand, but it doesnt take you there.

Again, when the Qur'an says to do something, and we do it, we're ultimately following God.

And my reasoning is based on how i percieve God in my life as a working helpfull force that is very eacy to access. However i was only offered this access when i broke down my own illusions, which has to be the single most unpleasant thing i have ever tried. Especially those surrounding the systems we accept "because we should respect the place we live"...if that place is deeply satanic. No we shall not respect such a thing. And if you keep feeding such a beast, you are not paying attention to God, and as a consequence God is not paying attention to you, nomatter how well you feel you understand the Quran. You just dont get it.

This comes down to belief.

The Qurans tells you to follow only that which is observably true. Again, if we are not to end in a catch, then obviously this goes for the book itself aswell. If i can observe bad advice in the book, then how can i folllow it, when both logic, my heart, confirms its not true? The thing is, when we reprogram ourselfes entirely, and rid of those things were told to rid ourselfes of (like tyranny nomatter how subtle), then things that just arent right starts to glow in the dark. And it is very far from the selfrightiousness i felt when i first understood i should "follow the Quran".

I understand what you're saying, and you do have a point. But the thing is, I see so many proofs for the Qur'an's divinity. Things that are just amazing. I use these proofs to verify the Qur'an is actually divine, and thus I follow all of it. And another thing is, things in the Qur'an line up with my way of thinking and logic so well so I rarely have that problem.

Thank you, magi, for giving your point of view and calmly starting a fruitful discussion. Lately, it's been rare.

Peace.

unknownuser

however the One who made the law is a God not a human, therefore it has to be according to His perspective not yours neither mine

Peace Ahmed Bahgat

Peace bro

I just wanted to comment on this statement from your previous thread. Accepted that God is the one who judges and His law is the Law etc.

Ok, but part of His laws that humans enforce His punishment over the ones who perpetrate His laws

However, as you can see what is God's law can sometimes be upto debate.

Not just God?s law rather anything is debatable if the humans want to debate it even by resorting to non sense, they debate for the sake of debating not for the sake of logic and benefit to mankind.

This is all part of the freewill test to believe what God says or not

I think, therefore it is important to understand why God may have said something and to always make sure that we can justify our morality.

Not really because He is testing our belief at the same time as He is testing our affairs between ourselves, therefore there are many things that may look illogical under the human perspective but in no way to be as such under the All Knowledgable Allah perspective

Otherwise we are not better than the Sunnis

Firstly who is ?We??, you mean the Quran Alone sect?

Well I don?t follow that sect neither I follow the sunni sect nor any sect for that matter, however I see the sunnis more conservative regarding conjectures and Quran manipulations

who claim that their god allows them to opress women.

I never heard this from a sunni, and if you did then how do you know that he is right, do you believe what any humans tells you?

Of course, they feel that their god could never be wrong because everything he says is correct! Do you understand the danger of the circular argument?
Roshan

I do understand however, a wise man once said ?see if it makes sense then follow it?, and what makes sense is this

If we talk belief in a God then we are talking following what He says exactly, We can?t tell Him that He is wrong because He knows and we don?t know, that is what He said about Himself and us

See if a believer in Allah think that He is wrong, then that believer is not really a believer, simply a clear cut hypocrite

For the unbelievers, I wonder why they bother with the believers?, they should just enjoy life and don?t worry about the believers, because they made their decision using their own freewill to unbelieve same as the believers who used their freewill to believe

This always indicate to me that most unbelievers don?t feel safe and secure, on the other hand the Quran told us the believers will feel safe and secure when they remember God, huge difference that is in life and I tell you bro it will be one hell of a difference on the JD

Salam

unknownuser

What you are doing is entering murky waters, to defend a point of view

you are doing the same....

unknownuser

What you are doing is entering murky waters, to defend a point of view

you are doing the same....

peace

So which of the facts, that i presented do you disagree with?

unknownuser

peace magi

there's nothing i could possibly say to you to convince you of otherwise, however i would say exactly what Arnold said above...

because there are things in the Quran which were not known in those days

unknownuser

peace magi

there's nothing i could possibly say to you to convince you of otherwise, however i would say exactly what Arnold said above...

because there are things in the Quran which were not known in those days

Peace

thats just not the purpose of debate. You dont haev to convince me of anything, just present the facts, and i will refute, stand corrected or ignore it. but lets take it in the other thread then in qurans divinity.

unknownuser

Peace magi,salqan,open-mind,arnold,roshan and all.
Magi; i feel you have asked some tremendous questions,i really look forward to some responses....
If the quran is the finger (a sign.) pointing at the moon (the goal/reality.) then why obsess over the finger or keep referring back to it....? The buddha compared his system of beliefs to a raft that gets you over a river....but he said when you have crossed the river dont carry the raft on your head over the dry land......Thats just pointless baggage....He also said dont believe anything (even the buddhas own words.) unless you can verify it for yourself in some fashion...

Salqan; your post on reality and the one on illusions are very instructive also,i feel you have hit the nail on the head with the fact we need to free ourselves of illusions as much as possible,and to free oursleves from our own oppressive mentalities...

open-mind; i appreciate your feelings on the quran being gods words,and so you feel comfortable following the quran.....However,in your post to magi you stated that the quran was closely in line with your own logic and thinking,and you marvel at aspects of its so-called divinity.....I believe this can be like a self-fulfilling prophecy....we believe because it fits in with our view of the world (which may be right or more likely wrong.)....I believe many,many people fit this type of belief pattern,as did i previously... I believe many people look at the quran as having some good wisdom in it that is close/agrees to their world-view,and then go the extra 'leap of faith' and declare it all divine,perfect etc...And then start looking at it with the pre-conceived,incompletely researched view of it being perfect....Then people start imposing science,reality,their own subjective life-experiences and such like on the quran,and end up having reams and reams of their own 'conditioned'/made to fit evidence to justify the qurans perfection......Its seems to me that magi is honest/brave enough to address his own previous illusions about the quran and come to a new understanding regarding how we have to rid ourselves of self-made projections/illusions/wishful thinking,and massive flaws in logic which we have ignored,overlooked,or plain re-interpreted in an effort to protect our own self perpetuating image/illusion regarding this book/god....As magi stated it is indeed a very hard thing to re-condition our illusions/wishful thinking, or change your thought patterns,and analyse your own motives,desires on why we want to defend or hold on to our beliefs,even if we think we have objective evidence to justify these beliefs.....I applaud all those who take up the initially difficult,though very satisfying journey to self-awareness and living life through the lens of reality as much as we humanly can.....

arnold; just wanted to say im really enjoying you and magi discussing these scientific issues...as the bro said,why is it that the quran does not contain other miracles or other science (i know people say its not a science book.),Why does the quran say its clear to people when it takes dictionaries,extensive analysis and discovery to understand a lot of it?
Finally as a man who is aware of psychology,do you think you could be projecting your own views,science,opinions etc, subconciously onto the quran,so that you and the quran agree with each other for the simple matter that you are reading into its 'words' what you want....? You know me a little,so my question is respectful bro... handshake

Roshan; very good points about the circular logic...

Navid

Peace Enquirer

open-mind; i appreciate your feelings on the quran being gods words,and so you feel comfortable following the quran.....However,in your post to magi you stated that the quran was closely in line with your own logic and thinking,and you marvel at aspects of its so-called divinity.....I believe this can be like a self-fulfilling prophecy....we believe because it fits in with our view of the world (which may be right or more likely wrong.)....I believe many,many people fit this type of belief pattern,as did i previously... I believe many people look at the quran as having some good wisdom in it that is close/agrees to their world-view,and then go the extra 'leap of faith' and declare it all divine,perfect etc...And then start looking at it with the pre-conceived,incompletely researched view of it being perfect....Then people start imposing science,reality,their own subjective life-experiences and such like on the quran,and end up having reams and reams of their own 'conditioned'/made to fit evidence to justify the qurans perfection......Its seems to me that magi is honest/brave enough to address his own previous illusions about the quran and come to a new understanding regarding how we have to rid ourselves of self-made projections/illusions/wishful thinking,and massive flaws in logic which we have ignored,overlooked,or plain re-interpreted in an effort to protect our own self perpetuating image/illusion regarding this book/god....As magi stated it is indeed a very hard thing to re-condition our illusions/wishful thinking, or change your thought patterns,and analyse your own motives,desires on why we want to defend or hold on to our beliefs,even if we think we have objective evidence to justify these beliefs.....I applaud all those who take up the initially difficult,though very satisfying journey to self-awareness and living life through the lens of reality as much as we humanly can.....

My post was not talking about why people believe the Qur'an. That's a whole separate topic.

You said you "dislike the Qur'an being used as an idol," and my post was directed at that. I was stating that if someone believes the Qur'an to be from God (for whatever reasons, i'm not talking about that), and they follow it, it's NOT idolizing. There is no arguing this; this is a matter of simple logic. It's done.

Although your response above was a very profound post, we're not talking about that here. It'd be a good idea to start another thread on it. It's also a good idea to read someone's post to get a good grasp of what they're saying, before you respond to them with things that weren't even being discussed (not directing this at you, just a tip for everyone, even me).

Peace

unknownuser

Peace openmind. Ah,i take your point.....I was responding more to the other guys and thought id address you as well....Your point about idolisation of quran was something that i think magi adressed and was addressing well,so i didnt really refer to that point in detail... Also my definition of idolisation is meant in the sense of 'obsession',i dont mean it in the way it is used by some as some unforgivable crime punishable by hell-fire upon judgement day....(although 'obsession' is not a good thing to do either...)
I must say that some times if other people address points to a poster that i dis-agree with, i may leave it to that poster to save myself time,also at times i wont get into questions i feel are kind of 'skewed' or mainly very defensive.....Sometimes i will also address bigger/wider issues in a specific thread,because i feel we have to look at the bigger picture on occasions,and too many seperate threads may break the flow...
Anyway enough of my defensive post.....back to offence...... ...only joking.... yay

unknownuser

Peace openmind. If you have time i would appreciate it if you pondered over my long post that i wrote to arnold,magi etc...And added some of your feedback.....Just for my own curiosity and knowledge...Im sure folks wont mind it in this thread.... group

Navid

Peace

Alright, I just wasn't really talking about it, so I don't know why you'd direct it at me, but that's fine. I understand what you mean.

But on to the "obsession" thing, how are people obsessive on this forum about the Qur'an? What's your definition of "obsession?" I think this might be a good topic to discuss.

And yes, again, my whole post was about the idolization thing. So when you specifically responded to me, I thought you would be talking about that. Sorry if that's unreasonable..

Peace

unknownuser

Peace openmind; No your not being unreasonable,but i felt magi was adressing your specific points anyway....
Anyway,i feel 'obsession' is when everything and everything is critiqued and put under the microscope of the quran being the ultimate criteria....Personally i feel this is obsessive and impractical,though i understand why people do it,as they feel the quran is the unadulterated direct words of a deity...(THE deity,no less!) The quran does seemingly state that we should verify everything (as magi pointed out.),but what if we verify that certain parts of the qurans' verses/wisdom are wrong/impractical (again points made by other posters too.) ,will we actually follow the wisdom of 1736,or will we make everything fit into one coherent neat whole book with no contradictions by ignoring or re-evaluating the reality of the world around us? Or re-interpreting verses metaphorically/scientifically/apologetically that at one time meant something else entirely...? I realise my view may be viewed as subjective,but many others share these views....
At the end of the day i think belief in a book to the exclusion of observable reality to the contrary is some kind of obsession....I know,i had this obsesssion a year ago...
handshake

Navid

Peace

Sure, I'd be glad to talk about what you said to arnold and magi. Only if you decide to respond respectfully

Magi; i feel you have asked some tremendous questions,i really look forward to some responses....
If the quran is the finger (a sign.) pointing at the moon (the goal/reality.) then why obsess over the finger or keep referring back to it....? The buddha compared his system of beliefs to a raft that gets you over a river....but he said when you have crossed the river dont carry the raft on your head over the dry land......Thats just pointless baggage....He also said dont believe anything (even the buddhas own words.) unless you can verify it for yourself in some fashion...

Why is it wrong if people use the sign (Qur'an) to get closer to the goal (God)? We keep "referring back to it" because it helps us get closer to God. Yes, there are other ways to get closer to God, that even the Qur'an states. Just through reflection alone, you can come to the conclusion that there is one God. However, since we are aware of the Qur'an, we use it. I'm very glad this topic came up, it really shows another beauty of the Qur'an. Let me explain what I mean.

5120 The earth is full of signs for those who are certain.
5121 And within yourselves; can you see?

These two verses, are indeed of true beauty in themselves. However, when we dig deeper, we see that 5120 uses the word "signs" or "ayat" to refer to the miracles, if you will, on earth and in ourselves. Now, the interesting thing about this is that, as we all know the Qur'an uses the word "ayat" to refer to its verses as well. There is one goal (God), and there are several routes of getting closer to that goal. You can use the signs within the Qur'an, or you can use the signs within the earth and within us.

Also, much like Buddha, the Qur'an says the same thing. To doubt everything, and verify it first before you believe it, even the Qur'an! But I hope you can see that I have doubted and have verified and am still doubting it! I never tell myself that I'm done, I found God, it's over. No, I still doubt the Qur'an every second. But with the many miracles within it, I choose to believe it. This is why I think we should start a thread on why people believe the Qur'an. Interesting topic, indeed.

arnold; just wanted to say im really enjoying you and magi discussing these scientific issues...as the bro said,why is it that the quran does not contain other miracles or other science (i know people say its not a science book.),Why does the quran say its clear to people when it takes dictionaries,extensive analysis and discovery to understand a lot of it?
Finally as a man who is aware of psychology,do you think you could be projecting your own views,science,opinions etc, subconciously onto the quran,so that you and the quran agree with each other for the simple matter that you are reading into its 'words' what you want....? You know me a little,so my question is respectful bro...

I believe there was a thread on the science issue a long time ago, remember? It was very chaotic, and I think you just stopped responding, so everyone just let it go. Not the first time.

Anyway, the first point I'd like to make is that the Qur'an giving us proofs from science is a privilege. It is not required of the Qur'an to do this, it just a bonus for us, so to speak. The Qur'an is sent out as a guide, and in that sense, it is complete. Not science; as you said it's not a science book. This is your answer. Instead of focusing more on why the Qur'an doesn't give every scientific break-through, focus more on how the Qur'an blatantly goes against the beliefs back then, and some of those very things, just happen to be science today. Does this not spark one ounce of interest?

My second point is directed on the "clarity" issue. First of all, it seems you don't have sufficient knowledge of the very thing you're arguing against. The Qur'an states it contains "ayatun mukhamatun" or "clear/straight forward verses" and "ayatun mutashabihatun" or "ambiguous/unclear/muliple-meaning verses." Look at 37

He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses.

So the Qur'an doesn't say every verse is clear. The verses about laws/things we need to do are clear. But you say there are arguments on simple things such as salat. The Qur'an, on purpose keeps things like salat general, because there are different ways of conducting "salat." Understand that general does not mean unclear. Because we have different beliefs on how to conduct salat does not make the Qur'an subjective or unclear. That makes us subjective. I really hope you can see this. It is very easy.

Enquirer, you know I am always glad to take part in discussion with you; all I ask are responses to everything I say. Is that too much to ask for? I thank you for your kindness and request for me to get involved. These are interesting topics, and I'm happy to keep discussing them, in a fruitful, respectful matter.

Peace

Navid

Peace enquirer

Peace openmind; No your not being unreasonable,but i felt magi was adressing your specific points anyway....
Anyway,i feel 'obsession' is when everything and everything is critiqued and put under the microscope of the quran being the ultimate criteria....Personally i feel this is obsessive and impractical,though i understand why people do it,as they feel the quran is the unadulterated direct words of a deity...(THE deity,no less!) The quran does seemingly state that we should verify everything (as magi pointed out.),but what if we verify that certain parts of the qurans' verses/wisdom are wrong/impractical (again points made by other posters too.) ,will we actually follow the wisdom of 1736,or will we make everything fit into one coherent neat whole book with no contradictions by ignoring or re-evaluating the reality of the world around us? Or re-interpreting verses metaphorically/scientifically/apologetically that at one time meant something else entirely...?

You've answered your own question. People just believe it. It just comes down to difference of beliefs. But let me explain a little further. People use things about the Qur'an to verify it is true (for example, scientific facts), then the see it as true, and thus they follow all of it.

I realise my view may be viewed as subjective,but many others share these views....

You always bring this up, enquirer. Your view is subjective, as is mine, as is everyone's. That's what a "view" is. This is off-topic, but I was just wondering why you keep using the words "subjective" and "objective" incorrectly.

At the end of the day i think belief in a book to the exclusion of observable reality to the contrary is some kind of obsession....I know,i had this obsesssion a year ago...
handshake

That's perfectly fine. At the end of the day, it just comes down to beliefs. But I believe, sooner or later, at one time, we will find out everything we have done that was right or wrong.

Peace.

unknownuser

Peace openmind. ok,sounds like we got some good points to talk about....Just give me ample time to respond,im not on the pc everyday,and my time is a bit more limited these days....Also i will try to address the main and relevant points,but dont expect every point in detail,as there are many other posters i need to address as well,and i also personally feel sometimes issues can be over-theorised,over-debted and over-intellectualizsed.....Anyway,look forward to input from all on these interesting topics...
handshake bravo

Navid

Peace openmind. ok,sounds like we got some good points to talk about....Just give me ample time to respond,im not on the pc everyday,and my time is a bit more limited these days....Also i will try to address the main and relevant points,but dont expect every point in detail,as there are many other posters i need to address as well,and i also personally feel sometimes issues can be over-theorised,over-debted and over-intellectualizsed.....Anyway,look forward to input from all on these interesting topics...
handshake bravo

Alright, good deal. But whenever you find points "over-theorized," tell me which ones and tell me why. Thanks in advance. I look forward to it as well

Peace.

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Enq, you know i don't mind answering you . The Quran only talks about some facts, why not more? Because it is a Book to guide humanity and to push them to explore themselves. And it cannot be explained why there is no book on earth that contains all of these true facts together coming from 600AD, and why there is no science in the hadith.

Quote
Finally as a man who is aware of psychology,do you think you could be projecting your own views,science,opinions etc, subconciously onto the quran,so that you and the quran agree with each other for the simple matter that you are reading into its 'words' what you want....? You know me a little,so my question is respectful bro...

I already had this scientific knowledge and so on before i believed in the Quran. Then i got a Quran and started to read it without believing it to be from God. When i saw all these things inside the Quran, there was only one conclusion left for me. So i don't read them into the Quran, i understand your question perfectly, this is the thing that still amazes me, i already had the knowledge before reading the Quran, and then i saw them inside the Quran while i didn't believe in the Quran. It was just a historic book for me back then. So it was not because i read these things 'into' the Quran that i started to believe, but because i just read them inside the Quran.

Peace

Roshan

I think, therefore it is important to understand why God may have said something and to always make sure that we can justify our morality.

Not really because He is testing our belief at the same time as He is testing our affairs between ourselves, therefore there are many things that may look illogical under the human perspective but in no way to be as such under the All Knowledgable Allah perspective

Peace

This is a side issue to the main topic. However I totally disagree with this point. God's law will always be logical.

Do not accept anything that you have no knowledge of. Surely the hearing, the sight and the mind you are responsible for." (Quran, 1736)

Roshan