Re: Why is there a difference
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peace magi
there's nothing i could possibly say to you to convince you of otherwise, however i would say exactly what Arnold said above...
because there are things in the Quran which were not known in those days
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peace magi
there's nothing i could possibly say to you to convince you of otherwise, however i would say exactly what Arnold said above...
because there are things in the Quran which were not known in those days
Peace
thats just not the purpose of debate. You dont haev to convince me of anything, just present the facts, and i will refute, stand corrected or ignore it. but lets take it in the other thread then in qurans divinity.
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Peace magi,salqan,open-mind,arnold,roshan and all.
Magi; i feel you have asked some tremendous questions,i really look forward to some responses....
If the quran is the finger (a sign.) pointing at the moon (the goal/reality.) then why obsess over the finger or keep referring back to it....? The buddha compared his system of beliefs to a raft that gets you over a river....but he said when you have crossed the river dont carry the raft on your head over the dry land......Thats just pointless baggage....He also said dont believe anything (even the buddhas own words.) unless you can verify it for yourself in some fashion...Salqan; your post on reality and the one on illusions are very instructive also,i feel you have hit the nail on the head with the fact we need to free ourselves of illusions as much as possible,and to free oursleves from our own oppressive mentalities...
open-mind; i appreciate your feelings on the quran being gods words,and so you feel comfortable following the quran.....However,in your post to magi you stated that the quran was closely in line with your own logic and thinking,and you marvel at aspects of its so-called divinity.....I believe this can be like a self-fulfilling prophecy....we believe because it fits in with our view of the world (which may be right or more likely wrong.)....I believe many,many people fit this type of belief pattern,as did i previously... I believe many people look at the quran as having some good wisdom in it that is close/agrees to their world-view,and then go the extra 'leap of faith' and declare it all divine,perfect etc...And then start looking at it with the pre-conceived,incompletely researched view of it being perfect....Then people start imposing science,reality,their own subjective life-experiences and such like on the quran,and end up having reams and reams of their own 'conditioned'/made to fit evidence to justify the qurans perfection......Its seems to me that magi is honest/brave enough to address his own previous illusions about the quran and come to a new understanding regarding how we have to rid ourselves of self-made projections/illusions/wishful thinking,and massive flaws in logic which we have ignored,overlooked,or plain re-interpreted in an effort to protect our own self perpetuating image/illusion regarding this book/god....As magi stated it is indeed a very hard thing to re-condition our illusions/wishful thinking, or change your thought patterns,and analyse your own motives,desires on why we want to defend or hold on to our beliefs,even if we think we have objective evidence to justify these beliefs.....I applaud all those who take up the initially difficult,though very satisfying journey to self-awareness and living life through the lens of reality as much as we humanly can.....
arnold; just wanted to say im really enjoying you and magi discussing these scientific issues...as the bro said,why is it that the quran does not contain other miracles or other science (i know people say its not a science book.),Why does the quran say its clear to people when it takes dictionaries,extensive analysis and discovery to understand a lot of it?
Finally as a man who is aware of psychology,do you think you could be projecting your own views,science,opinions etc, subconciously onto the quran,so that you and the quran agree with each other for the simple matter that you are reading into its 'words' what you want....? You know me a little,so my question is respectful bro... handshakeRoshan; very good points about the circular logic...
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Peace Enquirer
open-mind; i appreciate your feelings on the quran being gods words,and so you feel comfortable following the quran.....However,in your post to magi you stated that the quran was closely in line with your own logic and thinking,and you marvel at aspects of its so-called divinity.....I believe this can be like a self-fulfilling prophecy....we believe because it fits in with our view of the world (which may be right or more likely wrong.)....I believe many,many people fit this type of belief pattern,as did i previously... I believe many people look at the quran as having some good wisdom in it that is close/agrees to their world-view,and then go the extra 'leap of faith' and declare it all divine,perfect etc...And then start looking at it with the pre-conceived,incompletely researched view of it being perfect....Then people start imposing science,reality,their own subjective life-experiences and such like on the quran,and end up having reams and reams of their own 'conditioned'/made to fit evidence to justify the qurans perfection......Its seems to me that magi is honest/brave enough to address his own previous illusions about the quran and come to a new understanding regarding how we have to rid ourselves of self-made projections/illusions/wishful thinking,and massive flaws in logic which we have ignored,overlooked,or plain re-interpreted in an effort to protect our own self perpetuating image/illusion regarding this book/god....As magi stated it is indeed a very hard thing to re-condition our illusions/wishful thinking, or change your thought patterns,and analyse your own motives,desires on why we want to defend or hold on to our beliefs,even if we think we have objective evidence to justify these beliefs.....I applaud all those who take up the initially difficult,though very satisfying journey to self-awareness and living life through the lens of reality as much as we humanly can.....
My post was not talking about why people believe the Qur'an. That's a whole separate topic.
You said you "dislike the Qur'an being used as an idol," and my post was directed at that. I was stating that if someone believes the Qur'an to be from God (for whatever reasons, i'm not talking about that), and they follow it, it's NOT idolizing. There is no arguing this; this is a matter of simple logic. It's done.
Although your response above was a very profound post, we're not talking about that here. It'd be a good idea to start another thread on it. It's also a good idea to read someone's post to get a good grasp of what they're saying, before you respond to them with things that weren't even being discussed (not directing this at you, just a tip for everyone, even me).
Peace
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Peace openmind. Ah,i take your point.....I was responding more to the other guys and thought id address you as well....Your point about idolisation of quran was something that i think magi adressed and was addressing well,so i didnt really refer to that point in detail... Also my definition of idolisation is meant in the sense of 'obsession',i dont mean it in the way it is used by some as some unforgivable crime punishable by hell-fire upon judgement day....(although 'obsession' is not a good thing to do either...)
I must say that some times if other people address points to a poster that i dis-agree with, i may leave it to that poster to save myself time,also at times i wont get into questions i feel are kind of 'skewed' or mainly very defensive.....Sometimes i will also address bigger/wider issues in a specific thread,because i feel we have to look at the bigger picture on occasions,and too many seperate threads may break the flow...
Anyway enough of my defensive post.....back to offence...... ...only joking.... yay -
Peace openmind. If you have time i would appreciate it if you pondered over my long post that i wrote to arnold,magi etc...And added some of your feedback.....Just for my own curiosity and knowledge...Im sure folks wont mind it in this thread.... group
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Peace
Alright, I just wasn't really talking about it, so I don't know why you'd direct it at me, but that's fine. I understand what you mean.
But on to the "obsession" thing, how are people obsessive on this forum about the Qur'an? What's your definition of "obsession?" I think this might be a good topic to discuss.
And yes, again, my whole post was about the idolization thing. So when you specifically responded to me, I thought you would be talking about that. Sorry if that's unreasonable..
Peace
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Peace openmind; No your not being unreasonable,but i felt magi was adressing your specific points anyway....
Anyway,i feel 'obsession' is when everything and everything is critiqued and put under the microscope of the quran being the ultimate criteria....Personally i feel this is obsessive and impractical,though i understand why people do it,as they feel the quran is the unadulterated direct words of a deity...(THE deity,no less!) The quran does seemingly state that we should verify everything (as magi pointed out.),but what if we verify that certain parts of the qurans' verses/wisdom are wrong/impractical (again points made by other posters too.) ,will we actually follow the wisdom of 1736,or will we make everything fit into one coherent neat whole book with no contradictions by ignoring or re-evaluating the reality of the world around us? Or re-interpreting verses metaphorically/scientifically/apologetically that at one time meant something else entirely...? I realise my view may be viewed as subjective,but many others share these views....
At the end of the day i think belief in a book to the exclusion of observable reality to the contrary is some kind of obsession....I know,i had this obsesssion a year ago...
handshake -
Peace
Sure, I'd be glad to talk about what you said to arnold and magi. Only if you decide to respond respectfully
Magi; i feel you have asked some tremendous questions,i really look forward to some responses....
If the quran is the finger (a sign.) pointing at the moon (the goal/reality.) then why obsess over the finger or keep referring back to it....? The buddha compared his system of beliefs to a raft that gets you over a river....but he said when you have crossed the river dont carry the raft on your head over the dry land......Thats just pointless baggage....He also said dont believe anything (even the buddhas own words.) unless you can verify it for yourself in some fashion...Why is it wrong if people use the sign (Qur'an) to get closer to the goal (God)? We keep "referring back to it" because it helps us get closer to God. Yes, there are other ways to get closer to God, that even the Qur'an states. Just through reflection alone, you can come to the conclusion that there is one God. However, since we are aware of the Qur'an, we use it. I'm very glad this topic came up, it really shows another beauty of the Qur'an. Let me explain what I mean.
5120 The earth is full of signs for those who are certain.
5121 And within yourselves; can you see?These two verses, are indeed of true beauty in themselves. However, when we dig deeper, we see that 5120 uses the word "signs" or "ayat" to refer to the miracles, if you will, on earth and in ourselves. Now, the interesting thing about this is that, as we all know the Qur'an uses the word "ayat" to refer to its verses as well. There is one goal (God), and there are several routes of getting closer to that goal. You can use the signs within the Qur'an, or you can use the signs within the earth and within us.
Also, much like Buddha, the Qur'an says the same thing. To doubt everything, and verify it first before you believe it, even the Qur'an! But I hope you can see that I have doubted and have verified and am still doubting it! I never tell myself that I'm done, I found God, it's over. No, I still doubt the Qur'an every second. But with the many miracles within it, I choose to believe it. This is why I think we should start a thread on why people believe the Qur'an. Interesting topic, indeed.
arnold; just wanted to say im really enjoying you and magi discussing these scientific issues...as the bro said,why is it that the quran does not contain other miracles or other science (i know people say its not a science book.),Why does the quran say its clear to people when it takes dictionaries,extensive analysis and discovery to understand a lot of it?
Finally as a man who is aware of psychology,do you think you could be projecting your own views,science,opinions etc, subconciously onto the quran,so that you and the quran agree with each other for the simple matter that you are reading into its 'words' what you want....? You know me a little,so my question is respectful bro...I believe there was a thread on the science issue a long time ago, remember? It was very chaotic, and I think you just stopped responding, so everyone just let it go. Not the first time.
Anyway, the first point I'd like to make is that the Qur'an giving us proofs from science is a privilege. It is not required of the Qur'an to do this, it just a bonus for us, so to speak. The Qur'an is sent out as a guide, and in that sense, it is complete. Not science; as you said it's not a science book. This is your answer. Instead of focusing more on why the Qur'an doesn't give every scientific break-through, focus more on how the Qur'an blatantly goes against the beliefs back then, and some of those very things, just happen to be science today. Does this not spark one ounce of interest?
My second point is directed on the "clarity" issue. First of all, it seems you don't have sufficient knowledge of the very thing you're arguing against. The Qur'an states it contains "ayatun mukhamatun" or "clear/straight forward verses" and "ayatun mutashabihatun" or "ambiguous/unclear/muliple-meaning verses." Look at 37
He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses.
So the Qur'an doesn't say every verse is clear. The verses about laws/things we need to do are clear. But you say there are arguments on simple things such as salat. The Qur'an, on purpose keeps things like salat general, because there are different ways of conducting "salat." Understand that general does not mean unclear. Because we have different beliefs on how to conduct salat does not make the Qur'an subjective or unclear. That makes us subjective. I really hope you can see this. It is very easy.
Enquirer, you know I am always glad to take part in discussion with you; all I ask are responses to everything I say. Is that too much to ask for? I thank you for your kindness and request for me to get involved. These are interesting topics, and I'm happy to keep discussing them, in a fruitful, respectful matter.
Peace
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Peace enquirer
Peace openmind; No your not being unreasonable,but i felt magi was adressing your specific points anyway....
Anyway,i feel 'obsession' is when everything and everything is critiqued and put under the microscope of the quran being the ultimate criteria....Personally i feel this is obsessive and impractical,though i understand why people do it,as they feel the quran is the unadulterated direct words of a deity...(THE deity,no less!) The quran does seemingly state that we should verify everything (as magi pointed out.),but what if we verify that certain parts of the qurans' verses/wisdom are wrong/impractical (again points made by other posters too.) ,will we actually follow the wisdom of 1736,or will we make everything fit into one coherent neat whole book with no contradictions by ignoring or re-evaluating the reality of the world around us? Or re-interpreting verses metaphorically/scientifically/apologetically that at one time meant something else entirely...?You've answered your own question. People just believe it. It just comes down to difference of beliefs. But let me explain a little further. People use things about the Qur'an to verify it is true (for example, scientific facts), then the see it as true, and thus they follow all of it.
I realise my view may be viewed as subjective,but many others share these views....
You always bring this up, enquirer. Your view is subjective, as is mine, as is everyone's. That's what a "view" is. This is off-topic, but I was just wondering why you keep using the words "subjective" and "objective" incorrectly.
At the end of the day i think belief in a book to the exclusion of observable reality to the contrary is some kind of obsession....I know,i had this obsesssion a year ago...
handshakeThat's perfectly fine. At the end of the day, it just comes down to beliefs. But I believe, sooner or later, at one time, we will find out everything we have done that was right or wrong.
Peace.
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Peace openmind. ok,sounds like we got some good points to talk about....Just give me ample time to respond,im not on the pc everyday,and my time is a bit more limited these days....Also i will try to address the main and relevant points,but dont expect every point in detail,as there are many other posters i need to address as well,and i also personally feel sometimes issues can be over-theorised,over-debted and over-intellectualizsed.....Anyway,look forward to input from all on these interesting topics...
handshake bravo -
Peace openmind. ok,sounds like we got some good points to talk about....Just give me ample time to respond,im not on the pc everyday,and my time is a bit more limited these days....Also i will try to address the main and relevant points,but dont expect every point in detail,as there are many other posters i need to address as well,and i also personally feel sometimes issues can be over-theorised,over-debted and over-intellectualizsed.....Anyway,look forward to input from all on these interesting topics...
handshake bravoAlright, good deal. But whenever you find points "over-theorized," tell me which ones and tell me why. Thanks in advance. I look forward to it as well
Peace.
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Peace,
Enq, you know i don't mind answering you . The Quran only talks about some facts, why not more? Because it is a Book to guide humanity and to push them to explore themselves. And it cannot be explained why there is no book on earth that contains all of these true facts together coming from 600AD, and why there is no science in the hadith.
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Finally as a man who is aware of psychology,do you think you could be projecting your own views,science,opinions etc, subconciously onto the quran,so that you and the quran agree with each other for the simple matter that you are reading into its 'words' what you want....? You know me a little,so my question is respectful bro...I already had this scientific knowledge and so on before i believed in the Quran. Then i got a Quran and started to read it without believing it to be from God. When i saw all these things inside the Quran, there was only one conclusion left for me. So i don't read them into the Quran, i understand your question perfectly, this is the thing that still amazes me, i already had the knowledge before reading the Quran, and then i saw them inside the Quran while i didn't believe in the Quran. It was just a historic book for me back then. So it was not because i read these things 'into' the Quran that i started to believe, but because i just read them inside the Quran.
Peace
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I think, therefore it is important to understand why God may have said something and to always make sure that we can justify our morality.
Not really because He is testing our belief at the same time as He is testing our affairs between ourselves, therefore there are many things that may look illogical under the human perspective but in no way to be as such under the All Knowledgable Allah perspective
Peace
This is a side issue to the main topic. However I totally disagree with this point. God's law will always be logical.
Do not accept anything that you have no knowledge of. Surely the hearing, the sight and the mind you are responsible for." (Quran, 1736)
Roshan
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I think, therefore it is important to understand why God may have said something and to always make sure that we can justify our morality.
Not really because He is testing our belief at the same time as He is testing our affairs between ourselves, therefore there are many things that may look illogical under the human perspective but in no way to be as such under the All Knowledgable Allah perspective
Peace
This is a side issue to the main topic. However I totally disagree with this point. God's law will always be logical.
Do not accept anything that you have no knowledge of. Surely the hearing, the sight and the mind you are responsible for." (Quran, 1736)
Roshan
Peace
again logical to Him, not to you
also you totally manipulated the first part of 1736 as many here do, I guess you fell in their trap
Good luck to you
salam
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The diferences would always happen as long as men
- Divided into countries
- divided into parties
- divided into fiqhs
- divided into groups
- divided into local and tribal habits
- divided into leaders.
- divided into madzhabs and streams
All Apostles are sent to unite (tauheed) them and leaving off their prouds but for Islam.