Islam's view on Marijuana
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c0de,
First, lets make clear that intoxicants are not forbidden.
All what is forbidden by God are clearly brought forth in the quran by saying its forbidden.In 590 it is sayd that you should avoid devil, not intoxicants.
590 O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and sacraments, and fortunes are foul tools used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.but this is not very important here in this discussion because cannabis is not an intoxicant.
Did you think I would overlook the fact that you have completely avoided dealing with the opium issue? Or the wine example, from the last post? You think you can get away with just ignoring points that you can't answer in a debate?
opium and wine are not cannabis.
if i would tell you that honey comes from plants and is very beneficial and allowed, it wouldnt help me much defending cannabis. so talking all the time about opium doesnt help you also when we talk about cannabis.
i sayd earlier that plants are ok compared to synthetical materials. but ofcourse there are many poisonous plants too. (obvious without mentioning)Another invalid argument. Moderate use has nothing to do with it, otherwise wine would also be allowed as it is also beneficial in moderate doses.
cant agree with you, because your arguments are invalid. you cant say, bringing an example from alcohol, that moderate use has nothing to do with it. because i can bring you opposite example
scientists say that salt is a natural mood-elevating substance. and its addictive.
in moderate doses its OK. but if to consume it too much it can be very harmful. (http//www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090310152329.htm)as you are in such a mood of forbidding, maybe you would like to forbid salt also? why not, salt may be harmful and is addictive?
so, where are we?
back in my first post, where is kmr translation.
something is khamr when it clouds your mind.
i say it dont cloud my mind. you say it clouds your mind. -
First, lets make clear that intoxicants are not forbidden.
All what is forbidden by God are clearly brought forth in the quran by saying its forbidden.In 590 it is sayd that you should avoid devil, not intoxicants.
590 O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and sacraments, and fortunes are foul tools used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.Dude, hands down, this is the WORST argument you have put up yet. The words "shun it" are clearly used and even more their negative effects are clearly outlined.
"shun?verb
to keep away from (a place, person, object, etc.), from motives of dislike, caution, etc.; take pains to avoid."?They ask you (O Muhammad) about intoxicants and games of chance. Say ?In both of them there is a great wrong and a means of (some) profit for men; but their sin is greater than their profit.??
Surah Baqarah, ayat 219? O you who believe! Intoxicants and games of chance, and idolatrous practices, and the divining of the future are but a loathsome evil of Satan?s doing shun it, then, so that you might attain to a happy state! By means of intoxicants and games of chance Satan seeks only to sow enmity and hatred among you, and to turn you away from the remembrance of God and from prayer. Will you not then desist??
Surah al-Ma?idah, Ayat 90-91.but this is not very important here in this discussion because cannabis is not an intoxicant.
(lol) Yes it is. It is part of the definition of the word "marijuana" actually
"Cannabis, also known as marijuana or marihuana, or ganja (from Hindi/Sanskrit gnj, hemp), is a psychoactive drug extracted from the plant Cannabis sativa, or more often, Cannabis sativa subsp. indica. "
opium and wine are not cannabis.
if i would tell you that honey comes from plants and is very beneficial and allowed, it wouldnt help me much defending cannabis. so talking all the time about opium doesnt help you also when we talk about cannabis.The reason why opium and wine were brought up were to counter your argument that weed can not be classified as khamr because it a natural plant. When opium is clearly natural and obviously khamr.
i sayd earlier that plants are ok compared to synthetical materials.
Where do you get this reasoning from? You tried to support it with the verse of the Quran which was talking about fruits (!!!) when cannabis is clearly NOT a fruit (duh!) How can you say plants are ok when you ignore the example of opium which is totally natural and comes directly from the poppy plant? confused
you cant say, bringing an example from alcohol, that moderate use has nothing to do with it. because i can bring you opposite example
scientists say that salt is a natural mood-elevating substance. and its addictive.(lol) Wrong. Salt is not a psychoactive drug!! laugh Salt is a substance which might have minor mood elevating properties but it is not an intoxicant like weed. You are comparing apples and oranges which is a fallacy.
in moderate doses its OK. but if to consume it too much it can be very harmful.
Again, moderate doses have nothing to do with it. Read the verses again, they say "shun" intoxicants. Not "use them moderately" nope
PeAcE bro
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Peace,
Say ?In both of them there is a great wrong and a means of (some) profit for men; but their sin is greater than their profit.??
Surah Baqarah, ayat 2194912 You, you those who believe, distance your selves from much of the suspicion, that truly some (of) the suspicion (is) ithmun (harm), and do not spy?
2219 They ask you about the intoxicants and the gambling say "In them great ithmun (harm) and benefits to the people and their ithmun (harm) (is) greater from their benefit?
Suspicion, weed, wine, or gambling no difference, avoid to succeed become a better person, a caution which only a few manage to control realize they are on the border. Of course all the women gossip in a day is greater harm than in all the bars in the world. lol
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Dude, hands down, this is the WORST argument you have put up yet. The words "shun it" are clearly used and even more their negative effects are clearly outlined.
"shun?verb
to keep away from (a place, person, object, etc.), from motives of dislike, caution, etc.; take pains to avoid."?They ask you (O Muhammad) about intoxicants and games of chance. Say ?In both of them there is a great wrong and a means of (some) profit for men; but their sin is greater than their profit.??
Surah Baqarah, ayat 219? O you who believe! Intoxicants and games of chance, and idolatrous practices, and the divining of the future are but a loathsome evil of Satan?s doing shun it, then, so that you might attain to a happy state! By means of intoxicants and games of chance Satan seeks only to sow enmity and hatred among you, and to turn you away from the remembrance of God and from prayer. Will you not then desist??
Surah al-Ma?idah, Ayat 90-91.Dont get carried away just yet.
There is a good article on the subject
http//free-minds.org/alcohol2psychoactive drug
btw, in Greek psyche - soul ja deloo - expose
psychedelia - exposing soulThe reason why opium and wine were brought up were to counter your argument that weed can not be classified as khamr because it a natural plant. When opium is clearly natural and obviously khamr.
this was not what i sayd.Where do you get this reasoning from? You tried to support it with the verse of the Quran which was talking about fruits (!!!) when cannabis is clearly NOT a fruit (duh!)
english is not my first language. in my language ?fruit? means whatever some plant carries - for example appletree fruits are apples, rye?s fruits are its corns. my understanding is that so is the case in english. altought in any language there may be more precise words for thise fruits. for example bud. but generally, what plants carry, are its fruits. or not?
and anyway, we are not talking about ?fruit? but its arabic equivalent.How can you say plants are ok when you ignore the example of opium which is totally natural and comes directly from the poppy plant?
i already specified the obvious fact that there are poisoning plants also. so yes, all plants are not ok to consume. happy? Dwe are tripping way off of the subject.
islam?s view on marijuana is that its not forbidden, even if we say (as some insists) that marijuana is an intoxicants.
but my opinion is that it is not intoxicant because, it doesnt cloud the mind.so c0de, if you have more to say about this issue, try to convince readers that marijuana cloudes minds.
peace O0
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Eating a muffin here makes me feel better then smoking marijuana.
Eating a space cake tends to do that ;D
I agree with c0de. Cannabis significantly clouds one's mind when under the influence. Attention span is decreased, short term memory disappears, concentration is significantly reduced and co-ordination is reduced though that particular effect is mitigated in experienced users. However it does enhance life considerably when under the influence so it's a hedonist's drug of choice.
I'd rather marijuana is legal than alcohol. People under the influence of marijuana are considerably more docile and careful than those under the influence of alcohol. Although that is partly to do with the fact that it's illegal; liberties cannot be really taken with others when they can simply call the police. It is a highly ego-centric drug in a similar manner to cocaine.
How about anti-intoxicants then? Amphetamines, caffeine, certain psychedelics? These all provide one with a clarity of thought that is simply unmatchable through any sober means, particularly amphetamines.
c0de, please clarify what the hell you mean by "veil" because I don't really follow. If you're going to use such a term to denounce drugs then provide a clear quranic definition. I don't get the impression this veil matters.
The idea that synthetics vs natural substances matters is also laughable. LSD is a creation of God because everything comes from God. What do you make of that, tarmo?
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Tarmo + OPF
@ Tarmo
Dont get carried away just yet.
There is a good article on the subject
http//free-minds.org/alcohol2Nothing which supports your argument... the word "shun" has been provided with a definition for you in the previous post.
and anyway, we are not talking about ?fruit? but its arabic equivalent.
But this argument has already been nullified with the "fruits" of the poppy plants (opium) and grapes (wine).
so c0de, if you have more to say about this issue, try to convince readers that marijuana cloudes minds.
buddy, I don't have to convince anyone, they already know. You're the only one here who is persistently arguing that it is not. Or did you not notice that?
btw, in Greek psyche - soul ja deloo - expose
psychedelia - exposing soul(lol) when you reach enlightenment, be sure to let me know, ok?
@ OPF
Well bro, I wasn't the one who brought this term "veil" into the discussion. Tarmo claimed that marijuana "lifts the veil"... which I know to be untrue in whatever capacity he means it.
PeAcE
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Nothing which supports your argument... the word "shun" has been provided with a definition for you in the previous post.
so you read the article and you still say weed is forbidden?But this argument has already been nullified with the "fruits" of the poppy plants (opium) and grapes (wine).
which argument?
because of opium the qurans argument about fruits as provisions are nullified? lolbuddy, I don't have to convince anyone, they already know. You're the only one here who is persistently arguing that it is not. Or did you not notice that?
truth has nothing to do with democracy or voting.OPF,
in my opinion cannabis provides access to higher levels of conciousness. so its comparable to "lifting the veil".
this ?access to higher levels of conciousness? is not only my understanding. it is a common knowledge among users. altought not among all the users. while many feel clouded, others feel high.
this may depend on the using culture. starting from mentioning God?s name upon it...The idea that synthetics vs natural substances matters is also laughable. LSD is a creation of God because everything comes from God. What do you make of that, tarmo?
the substances you find in LSD occur nowhere naturally. they are synthesised by man.
ofcourse, everything what happens in here, you may say comes from God. so you may also say that evil comes from God. What do you make of that, OPF? -
so you read the article and you still say weed is forbidden?
I read the article and the Quran. The definition of "shun" still stands. God told us to stay well away from intoxicants, as pot is an intoxicant.
which argument?
because of opium the qurans argument about fruits as provisions are nullified? lolNo your argument that weed is okay because it is a plant is nullified.
truth has nothing to do with democracy or voting.
I know, you were the one who told me "convince" others.
OPF,
in my opinion cannabis provides access to higher levels of conciousness. so its comparable to "lifting the veil".
this ?access to higher levels of conciousness? is not only my understanding. it is a common knowledge among users. altought not among all the users. while many feel clouded, others feel high.
this may depend on the using culture. starting from mentioning God?s name upon it...
the substances you find in LSD occur nowhere naturally. they are synthesised by man.Wrong again. LSD is derived from a natural substance. The actual core compound in the "lysergic acid" comes from the seeds of a plant. Also, the experiences of LSD is not much different then magic mushrooms or mescaline, both of which are total intoxicants.
ofcourse, everything what happens in here, you may say comes from God. so you may also say that evil comes from God. What do you make of that, OPF?
God created both good and evil to test us. So He created the plants which are allowed, and the plants which are forbidden.
PeAcE
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I read the article and the Quran. The definition of "shun" still stands. God told us to stay well away from intoxicants, as pot is an intoxicant.
shun does not mean forbidden.Wrong again. LSD is derived from a natural substance. The actual core compound in the "lysergic acid" comes from the seeds of a plant.
haven?t you noticed that everything is derived from natural substances? what i am talking about is that man takes natural substance to chemical lab, makes some hocus-pocus and the outcome is a substance which didnt exist before. LSD is a mix of such manmade substances.So He created the plants which are allowed, and the plants which are forbidden.
no plant is forbidden. it was the Adam and Eve story where there were one forbidden fruit. now there are not even that one forbidden fruit.lawful vs forbidden
16114 So eat from what God has provided for you, that which is good and lawful, and thank the blessings of God, if it is indeed He whom you serve.
16115 He only made forbidden for you what is already dead, and blood, and the meat of pig, and what was sacrificed to any other than God. But whoever is forced to, without disobedience or transgression, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
16116 And do not say regarding what your tongues describe with lies ?This is lawful and that is forbidden;? that you seek to invent lies about God. Those who invent lies about God will not succeed. -
this may depend on the using culture. starting from mentioning God?s name upon it...
made a little search about cannabis and higher states of conciousness in internet and find that there are much interesting stuff on the subject.
for example this article, which in many points represents also my understandingExpand Your Consciousness Through Cannabis
It has been known for many millennia, and perhaps even before the advent of languages, that there exist in nature certain substances which greatly aid personal unfoldment. Known today as "entheogens" and also, "teacher plants", such substances are becoming more widely understood as accelerators of human consciousness. Among these is the Cannabis Herb, also known as "marijuana", whose flowers induce THE HIGH.
The high of cannabis is considered a mild hallucinogenic, but when it is properly used, it is neither mild, nor hallucinogenic. Instead, this Herb can be an extremely potent conveyor of high states of consciousness, one that can be used by the meditator for the sake of gaining greater clarity, vibration, (level of high) energy, (chi) psychic powers, greater health, intelligence and wisdom. By "properly used" I mean the Herb should be smoked with a reverent and spiritual INTENTION, and whose full potential absolutely CANNOT be realized without the practice of meditation. Most smokers assume that the high is a finite thing depending solely upon the chemistry of a given piece of bud. But the truth is that the high can be greatly amplified through meditational focus upon it, and through the conscious employment of INTENT.
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see http//www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9140587 -
shun does not mean forbidden.
That is why I do not neccessarily agree with making pot illegal. But it should be "shuned" willingly.
haven?t you noticed that everything is derived from natural substances? what i am talking about is that man takes natural substance to chemical lab, makes some hocus-pocus and the outcome is a substance which didnt exist before. LSD is a mix of such manmade substances.
no plant is forbidden. it was the Adam and Eve story where there were one forbidden fruit. now there are not even that one forbidden fruit.Opium has no added chemicals. Neither do many other narcotics. So again your argument that weed is okay because it is natural is flawed.
see http//www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9140587
lol... thnx 4 such a credible source dude. P
PeAcE
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lol... thnx 4 such a credible source dude. P
thanks for pointing it out, beacause it was not the original aadress
http//www.eoni.com/~visionquest/library/SOTH.htmlOpium has no added chemicals. Neither do many other narcotics. So again your argument that weed is okay because it is natural is flawed
this was not about opium, i talked aboud LSD.
as there are many poisonous plants, then ofcourse all plants are not okay to consume. as sayd already before. will you keep drumming?That is why I do not neccessarily agree with making pot illegal. But it should be "shuned" willingly.
finally you admit that intoxicants are not forbidden? and its not in your power to make plants forbidden?and if YOU are convinced that pot is an intoxicant, then yes, YOU better "shun" it willingly. because, as i have understand, most harmful is to act against your own understandings - to be a hypocrite.
as for those who dont consider pot as an intoxicant but see it as God?s blessing and gift for reaching higher states of consciousness, for those i give from the same webpage one more article which will probably affirm their current understanding and will give many interesting thoughts of how to reach from high even higher by meditation and other practices.
http//www.eoni.com/~visionquest/library/entheo1.html (there are 3 parts)God is the Most High.
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thanks for pointing it out, beacause it was not the original aadress
http//www.eoni.com/~visionquest/library/SOTH.html"the world mind society" ..... ???
and if YOU are convinced that pot is an intoxicant, then yes, YOU better "shun" it willingly. because, as i have understand, most harmful is to act against your own understandings - to be a hypocrite.
Well then you better understand what being a hypocrite actually means
"a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs." http//dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrite
If your intention is really to "lift the veil" and come closer to God, then I advise you to stop using drugs which only provide a means to escape from reality. While lifting the veil requires a person to face reality head on, drugs just make a person coast through life by ignoring the hardships of going through it sober. Use your common sense Achieving a higher state of consciousness would require more effort the the normal drugged out state of the human being, which MOST humans are usually in. Whether its pot, or alcohol, or prescription pills.
this was not about opium, i talked aboud LSD.
I know, and opium was the example I gave you to counter your claims about natural plants. (you keep losing track of the argument)
finally you admit that intoxicants are not forbidden? and its not in your power to make plants forbidden?
What do you mean by "finally" ??? How many times did I tell you that I never supported the illegalization of drugs??? I always said from the beginning that they should be willingly rejected by the individual (i.e. Shunned). I may have incorrectly used the word "forbidden" but my stance on drugs has not changed at all.
PeAcE
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If your intention is really to "lift the veil" and come closer to God, then I advise you to stop using drugs which only provide a means to escape from reality.
691 The reality.
692 What is the reality?
693 Absolutely, do you know what is the reality?human brain itself produce tiny amounts of THC (which is the main cannabis ingridient in making HIGH). so how could it be intoxicant? we cant ?shun? it. IMPOSSIBLE !
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human brain itself produce tiny amounts of THC (which is the main cannabis ingridient in making HIGH). so how could it be intoxicant? we cant ?shun? it. IMPOSSIBLE !
(lol) Maybe your brain produces THC, but the rest of our brains produce substances which are similar to THC (not actually THC). But even that does not help your argument because the brain also produces serotonin and dopamine as well. This does not mean we should start popping xtc and shooting heroin.
691 The reality.
692 What is the reality?
693 Absolutely, do you know what is the reality?I am not the one claiming enlightenment via drugs here bud. You're the one constantly "lifting the veil"... So go ahead... enlighten me.P
PeAcE
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(lol) Maybe your brain produces THC, but the rest of our brains produce substances which are similar to THC (not actually THC). But even that does not help your argument because the brain also produces serotonin and dopamine as well. This does not mean we should start popping xtc and shooting heroin.
so now you admit that quantaties do mather as previously you sayd quantaties dont mather?I am not the one claiming enlightenment via drugs here bud. You're the one constantly "lifting the veil"... So go ahead... enlighten me.
i just pointed out that when you are talking about reality, you dont know what you are talking about.
however, i think you have to admit that when you had your experiences with mind altering substances your understanding about reality changed. -
so now you admit that quantaties do mather as previously you sayd quantaties dont mather?
err... no... where are you getting this from? By the way, do you still think that THC is produced in the brain? (lol)
i just pointed out that when you are talking about reality, you dont know what you are talking about.
And you do?
however, i think you have to admit that when you had your experiences with mind altering substances your understanding about reality changed.
My understanding was granted to me by Allah... not the drugs.
Unlike you, I am not crediting the drugs with inherent power.PeAcE
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Ha ha definitely my thread
Just 2 things, talking about my own experience
1- The main difference between marijuana and alcohol is, when drinking you definitely cover your mind because you get to a point you don't know anymore what you are doing, that is why people start to speak loudly, fight etc etc after some glaces of alcohol. Instead while smoking you never get to a state where 'you don't know what you are doing'! At the max you go to sleep, that's it! So for me there is a big, huge difference there. Now why it is prohibited by law in major countries , I think it is just cultural thing.
2-Also smoking one join from time to time does not hurt but smoking frequently could hurt memory, breathing system etc again I think the tobacco is much much more dangerous than marijuana in term of addiction, --> it is more difficult to stop smoking tobacco than marijuana!!!!!! Definitely true!!!! still tobacco is not
hope this help
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c0de,
thanks for a challange, you had many good arguments and i also gain some new knowledge (forex. similar to THC), but i feel like im wasting my time here, specially when i look at the last lines, to which i suppousedly should reply... so i am out. for now.
hope you enjoy arguing with herbman here, its definitely his thread, as his name tells O0i know, many muslims dont take bible seriously, so it will propably not be very strong argument, but still, see what the bible tells about cannabis
http//www.cannabisculture.com/backissues/mayjune96/kanehbosm.html