4 witnesses can be 4 sources of circumstantial evidence? and another thing
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peace all,
I came across the following today, thought some may find it interesting. I have highlighted the part I am referring to in bold
415 The women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out.
RQT - End Note 6 (415)
The relative pronoun in this verse is allati, which refers to a group of women. It indicates an organized prostitution, which might pose a grave health problem for the society. In a society that accepted the jurisdiction of the Quran, if a woman is proven four times to be involved in promiscuous sexual activity, she is considered a hazard to the society and should be quarantined. Perhaps there is also an implication for our time, where genetic identification helps us to find the real father of a child. Our genes are made of various combinations of four acid molecules Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, and Thiamine. These four molecules, which are made of four different elements, function as witnesses for the identity of individuals to which they belong. The Quran does not necessarily require the witness to be an eyewitness. For instance, we bear witness to the oneness of God via our intelligence. The witness mentioned in 1226-27 is not considered a witness because he was present during the alleged incident. That witness did not say, "I saw with my eyes." The human witness mentioned in that story is proposing the testimony of circumstantial evidence, and logical conclusions based on both inductive and deductive reasoning. In other words, the Quran accepts the testimony of reliable circumstantial evidence just as it accepts the testimony of a reliable eyewitness.Thoughts?
As an aside, there are different translations of the next verse, 416, which I was unaware of until today
The two who commit it from amongst you, then you shall reprimand them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Compassionate.
RQT - End Note 7 (416)
The relative pronoun is not marked; the male dual form allazani (both) includes the female partner. In this case, it appears that the illegal or extramarital sexual affair is monogamous. For the punishment of the adulterers, see 241.And punish both of the guilty parties; but if they both repent and mend their ways, leave them alone for, behold, God is an acceptor of repentance, a dispenser of grace.
Muhammad Asad - End Note 13 (416)
Lit., "and the two from among you who become guilty thereof, punish them both". According to most of the commentators, this refers to immoral conduct on the part of a man and a woman as well as to homosexual relations.The translation I was used to was
And the two men who commit it from amongst you...This made me study these verses a bit more, but there seems to be several understandings and I dont quite understand why.
415 seems to be referring to female homosexuality lewdness. (even though RQT says different)
416 seems to be either addressing male homosexuality lewdness and/or referring to heterosexual lewdness.IF punishment for heterosexual lewdness is already discussed elsewhere and is different* then 416 can only refer to male homosexuality lewdness. Is that correct? i.e. the transaltion of "And the two men who commit it from amongst you... " is correct.
*is the punishment for proven adultery/fornication 100 lashes and this is halved for former slave women ?
Also, it is commonly thought that the punishment for male homosexuality lewdness and female homosexuality lewdness is different but the word used in 416 is "faathoohuma / annoy/hurt / suffer what is disagreeable" (root alif-dhal/thal-ya) which could encompass detainment as mentioned in 415, but could also be wider. Is this theoretically correct?
Almost every time when I study a verse or verses in more detail it's like I am reading a new Quran everyday! We really need to get a decent translation!
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I just thought of another possibility
Re 416 seems to be either addressing male homosexuality lewdness and/or referring to heterosexual lewdness.
Could "faathoohuma / annoy/hurt / suffer what is disagreeable" refer to the standard punishment of 100 lashes? Thus, male homosexual lewdness would result in the same punishment as heterosexual lewdness. This would result in a difference between male and female homosexual lewdness punishments however which may or may not be correct.
I'm just thinking out loud, I have not studied this in detail.
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A lot of thinking aloud and so, many interesting points.
For genetic test, I do not take that it should be allowed. The punishment is for the sexual act, not for child birth and keeping the child alive without aborting it or even make it "disappear" after birth.. More over, please google "Chimera".
You're right about "alltaani" which could be heterosexual, and is not about "zina" but just fahisha. As for "allawati", maybe it means homosexuality in both genders male homosexuals are not more "males" than lesbians are females one of each couple is playing the opposite role of their sex. Again it's when it's just fahisha and their bad luck made them seen by others. How would you use the genetic test here? -
peace sister Samia,
Can you clarify how you are using "genetic test" here, as I dont quite follow what you're saying.
Also, can you clarify "allati" in 415, is it plural as in 3 or more women? Once we clarify the exact usage in the verses concerned, it should be easier to work out what is going on.
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peace sister Samia,
Can you clarify how you are using "genetic test" here, as I dont quite follow what you're saying.
Also, can you clarify "allati" in 415, is it plural as in 3 or more women? Once we clarify the exact usage in the verses concerned, it should be easier to work out what is going on.
I was referring to your suggestion about genetic identification to know the father of the child to function as witness.That's why I suggested googling "chimera".
And yes,allaati is for more than two females (three and above).
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And yes,allaati is for more than two females (three and above).
Salam to you all,
Just a quick input, Allati "" as used in verse 415 means whoever does Alfahisha of your women. It does not refer to 2, 3 or group of women doing Alfahisha together, however it does not negate that a woman does Alfahisha with another woman as well.
Alfahisha as it relates to the people of Loot is anal intercourse. In other verses however it is described as getting near Zina which means Foreplay, Oral and Anal Sex and it involves Heterosexual and homosexual.
On the other hand, Allazan "" in verse 416 refers to any two males doing Alfahisha in any form, foreplay, oral or anal.
Another thought, at the end verse 2431 And tell the believing women?..not to strike with their feet so to reveal what is hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers that you may succeed.
Strike with their feet " " in Arabic also mean work, thus this might be the instruction not to do striptease as in not to reveal their hidden beauty.
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Salam to you all,
Just a quick input, Allati "" as used in verse 415 means whoever does Alfahisha of your women. It does not refer to 2, 3 or group of women doing Alfahisha together, however it does not negate that a woman does Alfahisha with another woman as well.
Alfahisha as it relates to the people of Loot is anal intercourse. In other verses however it is described as getting near Zina which means Foreplay, Oral and Anal Sex and it involves Heterosexual and homosexual.
On the other hand, Allazan "" in verse 416 refers to any two males doing Alfahisha in any form, foreplay, oral or anal.
Salaam mmouhammad, all
, if meant for two, could have been used in the dual ( ); similar to the usage of the dual generic masculine . This is what draws the attention. Also, the notion of different punishments based on gender for the same sin as Wakas questioned makes this understanding of yours problematic.
is for any two persons with at least one male; otherwise, how would you allude to a man and a woman with , or another demonstrative pronoun, and what would it be?
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peace all,
I came across the following today, thought some may find it interesting. I have highlighted the part I am referring to in bold
The witness mentioned in 1226-27 is not considered a witness because he was present during the alleged incident. That witness did not say, "I saw with my eyes." The human witness mentioned in that story is proposing the testimony of circumstantial evidence, and logical conclusions based on both inductive and deductive reasoning. In other words, the Quran accepts the testimony of reliable circumstantial evidence just as it accepts the testimony of a reliable eyewitness.
Thoughts?
Salam,
In Arabic we use the word sh'heed "" and the plural shoh'daa "" for actual eye witness and eye witnesses respectively. And we use the word shahid "" and the plural shahideen "" when giving testimony based on both inductive and deductive reasoning.
True the Quran uses and accept both type of testimony however the Quran specifies exactly where and how each type is used.
The following verses call for eye witnesses and not evidence, read the 1st 20 verses of chapter 24 to understand the adverse affect of using inductive and deductive reasoning and the door it opens for wrong doers.
2282 ?. and bring two witnesses "" from amongst your men; if there are not two men, then a man and two women from whom you will accept their testimony, so that if one of them becomes occupied, then the one can reminds the other. And let the witnesses "" not refuse to come if they are called?.
244 And those who accuse the protected women and they do not bring forth four witnesses " ", then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers.
246 And those who accuse their spouses, but they have no witnesses ""except for themselves, then the testimony of one of them is to be equivalent to that of four witnesses if it is sworn by God that they are being truthful.
2413 If only they had brought four witnesses "" to it. If they did not have the witnesses " ", then these with God are the liars.The following verses use the inductive and deductive reasoning to make logical conclusion. However in the story in chapter 1225, 26, 27 & 28, the testimony was given immediately after the incident, at the incident site and after hearing the claims of both persons. Note that the words used in the accusations from both indicated physical altercation and directed the witness to the evidence hence the evidence is the eye witness.
Yes inductive and deductive reasoning are acceptable but only when leading to valid and verifiable evidence. For example if a man got vasectomy married a woman who got pregnant after few months, he can easily prove her adultery as the facts amount to actual eye witness level, it can not be disputed.
353 ?Our Lord, we believe in what You have sent down, and followed the messenger, so record us with those who bear witness.? ""
583 And if they hear what was sent down to the messenger you see their eyes flooding with tears, for what they have known as the truth, they say ?Our Lord, we believe, so record us with the witnesses.? ""1225 And as they rushed towards the door, she tore his shirt from behind; and they found her master at the door. She said ?What is the punishment of he who wanted to molest your family? Is it not that he be jailed or punished painfully??
1226 He said ?She is the one who seduced me from myself,? and a witness "" from her family gave testimony ?If his shirt was torn from the front, then she is truthful, and he is the liar.?
1227 ?And if his shirt is torn from behind, then she is lying, and he is truthful.?
1228 So when he saw that his shirt was torn from behind, he said ?This is from your female scheming, your female scheming is indeed great!? -
Salaam mmouhammad, all
, if meant for two, could have been used in the dual ( ); similar to the usage of the dual generic masculine . This is what draws the attention. Also, the notion of different punishments based on gender for the same sin as Wakas questioned makes this understanding of yours problematic.
is for any two persons with at least one male; otherwise, how would you allude to a man and a woman with , or another demonstrative pronoun, and what would it be?
Salam Samia and all,
The directives in both verses 415 & 416 are given to the believers' society "men and women".
Accordingly read with me " " means all the women who commit fahisha of your women also means any woman who commits fahisha of your women or whoever commits fahisha of your women. As I said before there is no reference to 2 women committing fahisha together or to group of women committing fahisha together or as prostitution ring. So a woman might commit fahisha with another woman or women, a man or men, or even a mix. The directive does not specify the gender or the number with which a woman commits fahisha.The fahisha includes illegal heterosexual intercourse as well as it is unlike the Zina, is done secretly. They will escape public punishment but the God is aware. The reason of not mentioning a punishment for the male partner is because the fahisha was committed in secret and it is not wise to make it public and cause more damage. In fact it must be dealt with in a hush way.
Fahisha scenarios dealt with in verse 415 are woman ? woman and woman ? man regardless of numbers and includes all types of sexual activities.
Since illegal heterosexual intercourse is accounted for and the punishment is clearly defined if proven for the woman "the man or others may escape it"; the only possibility left out is dealt with in next verse 416
Allazan refers to only males also because of the identifier of your women " " used in the preceding verse and the identifier of you "" used with Allazan "" and talking about same subject "" and the third and only possibility left of fahisha.
The different punishment when judging or punishing the woman who is accused of haveing committed fahisha, there must be 4 witnesses; here The God did not ask for shoh'daa "", instead The God used another term istashido " " which requires investigation and hard work "the fahisha was not public" and the condition that the four must give their testimony before she can be found guilty. However if the four gave testimony then the woman's fahisha is known and amounts to limited public crime.
Notice with Allazan "" no witness no judgment and the punishment is immediate, any thing but death.
415
416I hope I was able to clarify my reading, let us continue the discussion so we can improve our understanding.
Mahmoud Mouhammad
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Salaam mmouhammad, all
Allazan refers to only males also because of the identifier of your women " " used in the preceding verse and the identifier of you "" used with Allazan "" and talking about same subject "" and the third and only possibility left of fahisha
This is the whole point
- Why speaking of females in the plural while speaking of males in the dual?
- Why stating a punishment to males different to that of females for the same sin?
Also about this identifier "minkum amongst you" What's the gender of "you"?
You sayThe directives in both verses 415 & 416 are given to the believers' society "men and women".
Therefore "allthaani" does not have to be only males.
The fahisha includes illegal heterosexual intercourse as well as it is unlike the Zina, is done secretly. They will escape public punishment but the God is aware. The reason of not mentioning a punishment for the male partner is because the fahisha was committed in secret and it is not wise to make it public and cause more damage. In fact it must be dealt with in a hush way.Since illegal heterosexual intercourse is accounted for and the punishment is clearly defined if proven for the woman "the man or others may escape it"; the only possibility left out is dealt with in next verse 416
Just have a look at the underlined sentences and tell me
- If it's committed in secret, how would the community know?
- What's this "hush way"?
- Why would the man, or others, escape it and not the woman?
The different punishment when judging or punishing the woman who is accused of haveing committed fahisha, there must be 4 witnesses; here The God did not ask for shoh'daa "", instead The God used another term istashido " " which requires investigation and hard work "the fahisha was not public" and the condition that the four must give their testimony before she can be found guilty. However if the four gave testimony then the woman's fahisha is known and amounts to limited public crime.
You can not deduce from a verb the kind of testimony, unless each kind has a different verb, which is not the case. "istash-hiduu" means let four persons testify; how, you cannot tell from the verb whethet it's eye witnessing or evidence. In fact, giving an exact number means only to testify as eye witnesses. Other evidnce, when called for, is not mentioned; otherwise tell me what other evidence is required for other crimes such as murder and theft, where the punishment is also prescribed.
Notice with Allazan "" no witness no judgment and the punishment is immediate, any thing but death.
And you are satisfied that this is divine justice?!!!
Actually there's no need to repeat the witnessing part. Just because there are different numbers for these two verses does not mean they are not continous.I still think that your understanding, which is i line with the prevalent understanding, does not answer the good questions raised by Wakas, and definitely others.
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Peace Wakas and all,
In my opinion verse 4.16 is a continuation of verse 4.15. Both verses form one statement and it is about fahisha.
In 415 The women who commit fahisha are 3 or more women (allati) and they are from your women (min nisaikum). It is assured that they are from our women.
In 4.16 Fahisha is committed by two person (Allazani) from among you. (not from among your men) not (min rijalikum) or not (min nisaikum) but it is (minkum).
So this means Allazani are two persons either (two men) or (one man and one woman). If it were only two men then the word (min rijalikum) would be used instead of (minkum).
The punishment in verse 4.16 is the same punishment explained in verse 4.15. The punishment is the same punishment for the same wrong deed for men and women.
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Peace,
I think "Keep them in their houses till they die or till the god finds another way" means that prostitutes who accept the great reading's jurisdiction should be kept under protective custody till it's safe for them to leave their homes.
Personally, I think this is a very interesting perspective, and I've never even considered this concept at all... Even though I don't think this is the main factor of that Qur'aanic passage, it could definately be a situation that could arise that could be applicable to it, and this is certainly something to look into. Thanks for the insight, and G-d knows best...
Peace,
Ahmad
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I think "Keep them in their houses till they die or till the god finds another way" means that prostitutes who accept the great reading's jurisdiction should be kept under protective custody till it's safe for them to leave their homes.
And what about their clients? Shouldn't they be punished, or are they their "witnesses"? Do you believe that just because there are prostitutes there are clients? And that keeping prostitutes off street will solve the problem of their clients and make the society perverts-free?
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Peace all,
Personally, I think this is a very interesting perspective,
Thanks
Thanks for the insight, and G-d knows best...
You?re welcome and it?s not an original opinion.
And what about their clients? Shouldn't they be punished, or are they their "witnesses"?
It could be that 416 applies to punters who willingly come under the great reading?s jurisdiction.
Do you believe that just because there are prostitutes there are clients?
Well, for a business to survive ? and make no mistake, sex is big business ? there has to be consumers.
And that keeping prostitutes off street will solve the problem of their clients and make the society perverts-free?
There will always be perverts. Perverts are here to stay, but the muslim community will not have to abide them if prostitutes who willingly come under the great reading?s jurisdiction will be kept under protective custody till the god makes it alright for them to leave their homes or creates job opportunities for them, etc.
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Peace all,
It could be that 416 applies to punters who willingly come under the great reading?s jurisdiction.
Why, then is it is the dual while "prostitutes" are in the plural?
Well, for a business to survive and make no mistake, sex is big business there has to be consumers.
And when the goods are not available, they will seek them somewhere else paedophilia, rape...
The problem of prostitution cannot be solved by punishing prostitutes or simply keeping them off the street. They are not the only "culprits", and may even be the victims. -
Peace All,
415 The women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out.
4.16 The two who comit it from amongst you, than you shall punish both of them. If they repend and amend, than leave them alone. God is redeemer, compassionate.
4.17 God?s acceptance and repentance is only for those who commit evil once (َ out of ignorance and then repent soon after; these will be forgiven by God. God is knowledgeable, wise.
4.18 There will be no repentance for those who commit evil repeatedly (ِ until death comes upon one of them, then he says, ?I repent now!? Nor there will be repentance for those who die while they are ingrates. To those We have prepared a painful retribution.
I think we have to read the whole passage from verse 4.15 to 4.18 to understand what is meant more correctly.
My opinion is as follows
- Here in these verses the topic is lewdness done in the society by a group of people.
- Any one who does this lewdness in the society man or woman shall be kept in houses (prison) for an unlimited time if four persons bear withnesses over them.
- Any one (man or woman) commited lewdness out of ignorance and repent shall be forgiven.
- The ones who insist on lewdness shall not be forgiven and stay in prison.
