4 witnesses can be 4 sources of circumstantial evidence? and another thing

[Samia]

peace all,
1)
I thought we had established that the usage of "allazani" in 416 indicates at least one male? What is correct according to grammar/AQ?

In AQ, when it is addressing us, or say the believers, does it ever use a phrase equivalent to "And as for your men"? If so, can anyone cite some examples?

Are there other examples of difference in punishment between males and females in AQ? I assume since no-one has mentioned any, there is none, anyone know?

415 and its use of the plural for women (i.e. 3 or more)
I think we may have taken this the wrong way, or maybe not, but let's see...
If we take it to mean 3 or more does that not imply that for 3 or more women, one must bring 4 witnesses upon the 3 or more women, which of course doesn't make sense. Throughout AQ it is 4 witnesses per person.
If it is indeed those of your women, is it possible to phrase 415 in such a way NOT using the plural but for it to still make sense and not be misunderstood? Can those who know Arabic help here?
Let me clarify this point if it said "And as for your woman (singular)" this could be misunderstood to mean the prophet's wife, and if he had more than one, which one would it be referring to? If it was addressed to believers and it said "And as for your woman", again, who is it referring to wife(which one?)/daughter/mother/sister/etc. Similarly, if it was the dual, I do not see how it could logically fit or make sense. Thus, the only option is to use the plural, hence the usage here.
Failing that, are there any other examples of usage of this phrasing in AQ that would shed some light on this usage?

Once these questions are clarified, things should become easier.

I believe we are barking at the wrong tree, or as you say, taking it the wrong "meaning".

1. Since we cannot find in the qur'aan examples of difference in punishment between males and females, and
2. Since the address is to the whole community, men and women
   Then "nisaa'kum " cannot mean "your women". We should go for the linguisic, not the sociolinguistic meaning. In the qur'aan, "Nisaa'" does not always mean "women", just like "rijaal" does not always, or rather it often does not mean, "men". We should look for a meaning where "nisaa'" includes males too.

Before asking me, I have not yet figured out a meaning for the verse.

[Roshan]

I believe we are barking at the wrong tree, or as you say, taking it the wrong "meaning".

1. Since we cannot find in the qur'aan examples of difference in punishment between males and females, and
2. Since the address is to the whole community, men and women
   Then "nisaa'kum " cannot mean "your women". We should go for the linguisic, not the sociolinguistic meaning. In the qur'aan, "Nisaa'" does not always mean "women", just like "rijaal" does not always, or rather it often does not mean, "men". We should look for a meaning where "nisaa'" includes males too.

Before asking me, I have not yet figured out a meaning for the verse.

Peace,

There is no difference in treatment here. The context of 'punish them both' is as per 415. That way, do you not get a meaning consistent with the text?

I think this, and people's own assumptions about 'homosexuality' are what keeps some from understanding the verse.

Roshan

[Tlepsh]

I believe we are barking at the wrong tree, or as you say, taking it the wrong "meaning".

1. Since we cannot find in the qur'aan examples of difference in punishment between males and females, and
2. Since the address is to the whole community, men and women
   Then "nisaa'kum " cannot mean "your women". We should go for the linguisic, not the sociolinguistic meaning. In the qur'aan, "Nisaa'" does not always mean "women", just like "rijaal" does not always, or rather it often does not mean, "men". We should look for a meaning where "nisaa'" includes males too.

Before asking me, I have not yet figured out a meaning for the verse.

Peace Samia,

Please give us a word or a term in English to use for ?nisaa?kum? where it includes the ones who stay back at home, the needy, the orphans, the elder ones whom we take care of, etc.

For example the ?nisaa?kum? in verse 65.4 clearly means ?your women?

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But in 4.15 it may include males as well. I do not know what term shall be used to express it in English.

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And what is the difference between (allaa?i) in 65.4 and (allaati) in 4.15.

[unknownuser]

Salaam all,

I believe we are barking at the wrong tree, or as you say, taking it the wrong "meaning".

1. Since we cannot find in the qur'aan examples of difference in punishment between males and females, and
2. Since the address is to the whole community, men and women
   Then "nisaa'kum " cannot mean "your women". We should go for the linguisic, not the sociolinguistic meaning. In the qur'aan, "Nisaa'" does not always mean "women", just like "rijaal" does not always, or rather it often does not mean, "men". We should look for a meaning where "nisaa'" includes males too.

Before asking me, I have not yet figured out a meaning for the verse.

Nisaa always means females, rijaal can be 99 females with at least one male (any age) in the group.

The above is clear from inheritance verses which have to be without ambiguity.

Verse numbers, originally dots/vocal stops get in the way, cause people to read out of context. It's one continuous passage, same punishment/confinement if they repent leave them alone applicable to both females and males involving all indecent sexual fetishes in public, hookers, pimps, johns, clean them up, lock them up...

And those who came/do/commit (F) with the enormous deed/atrocious deed/ugly deed/saying/adultery/fornication/homosexuality from your women, so call a witness on them (F), four from you, so if they witnessed, so hold them (F) in the houses/homes until the death makes them (F) die, or God makes for them (F) a way/means. And those who (B/M), they both come/do/commit it from you, so harm them (B), so if they (B) repented, and they (B) corrected, so turn away from them, that God is forgiving, merciful.

[wildguest1956]

see also http//www.islamicperspectives.com/Stoning1.htm

5. In 415-16 the Quran says "As for those of your women who are guilty of fahishah, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify, then confine them to the houses until death takes them or God appoints for them a way. And the two (alladhan) who commit it (fahishah), punish (adhu) them both. But if they repent and act righteously, leave them alone. Surely, God is ever forgiving and most merciful." Chapter 5 discusses the interpretation of these verses in detail. Here we only note that in the verses ?your women? (nisa kum) either primarily means ?your wives? or at least includes wives along with some other female members of the family such as daughters. So the punishment for fahishah in this passage is meant for married women or both married and unmarried women. This means that the Quran shows a consistent pattern in either covering both the married and unmarred cases when it talks of illicit sex or dealing primarily with the married case. Thus, as we have already noted, in numerous passages it prohibits zina without any reference to the marital status of the persons involved; in 425 it explicity talks of the punishment of married slave women and compares it with that of muhsanat with some indications that muhsanat refers to married free women or at least includes married free women; in 415-16 it talks of punishment for fahishah on the part of ?your women? and once again either deals with both married and unmarried women or primarily deals with married women; and, finally, in 3330 it talks of the punishment for the hypothetical cases of fahishah committed by the nisa of the Prophet and clearly deals includes married women. In view of this consistent pattern, it is natural to view 242 as covering both the married and unmarried cases or primarily dealing, as indicated in argument 2 above, with the married case.

[Samia]

Peace,

There is no difference in treatment here. The context of 'punish them both' is as per 415. That way, do you not get a meaning consistent with the text?

I think this, and people's own assumptions about 'homosexuality' are what keeps some from understanding the verse.

Roshan

If there was no difference, why mentioning women alone (in plural) then mentioning "allathani" which could mean a man and a woman? And how is "aathuhuma" synonymous to "amsikuuhunna fil byiout until they die...."?

Salaam all,

Nisaa always means females, rijaal can be 99 females with at least one male (any age) in the group.

The above is clear from inheritance verses which have to be without ambiguity.

Inheritance verses clearly speak of "thakar & untha" to clear the ambiguity. "nsaa'" in the context of inheritance is understood as "women". In this verse, the fact that the vese addresses men and women, make one questions what "women of women" would mean. Also signaling women for fahisha without mentioning men or how to deal with them is a big problem. If you have a solution for at least the latter problem, then I am all ears.

Why does the verse mention min nisaa'ikum? Isn't "allaati" enough to show they are "women"? Same thing with allthaani why "min rijaalikum"? Does it mean only two men?

As for sying that "nisaa'" ALWAYS means women, I refer you first to chapter 4 Does it speak mainly, or mostly, of women?

1. Also 4 4
   who is addressed? People. Am I to give a "woman/wife" anything?
   Look up "sadaqa" in the qur'aan and see who is eligible for it. Do women form any part of those who get it?
   What do women get for marriage sadaqa or "ajr"?
   Then what's is this sadqa given to "women"? It's definitely not women.

2. 4127 They ask your legal instruction concerning wmen. Say God instructs you in what concerns them and what's recited unto you in the book concerning
   -mothers with orphans whom you want to mary yet you do not want to pay them what's due to them
   -vulenrable children
   -orphans
   All these three categories are under the title "women".

Peace Samia,

Please give us a word or a term in English to use for nisaakum where it includes the ones who stay back at home, the needy, the orphans, the elder ones whom we take care of, etc.

I would say "the vulnerable", "the dependants"...

Verse 654 the context (maheed) shows it means "women"

I do not know a difference between allaa'ii and allaati or even allawtii

[Samia]

see also http//www.islamicperspectives.com/Stoning1.htm

Still this does not answer the big question What about their male partners?
In the verse concerning "zina", God explicitly mentions the male and the female.
Again, verse 247 uses the neutral term "azwaj" to accommodate for both sexes/spouses.
As for daughters, no man has any control or right on his mature daughter inasmuch as he has or any other adult.

[wildguest1956]

More explanations here

We now explain the two verses word by word.

?Those? (allati). This is general feminine plural. One question that may be raised against the view that verses 15-16 talk about unnatural sex is why, in contrast to men in verse 16, in case of women the plural allati (those women) and not allatan (those two women) is used. But this type of question arises regardless of how we interpret the verses. Thus if we interpret them as referring to heterosexual fahishah, we can ask why the second verse did not use alladhina instead of alladhan, in parallel to verse 15? But the view favored here --- verses 15-16 talk about fahishah that is not covered in 242 under the term zina`, actually does provide an explanation for the use of allati in connection with women and alladhan in connection with men. For, it appears that homosexuality has never been as common among women as among men. Research shows that in our times homosexuality among men is far more common than women. Some estimates make it ten times more common among men than among women. That the situation was somewhat similar in earlier times is shown by the fact that while the Torah prohibits homosexual act among males it does not even mention it among women. Consider the following passages again

If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he shall be put to death; and you shall kill the animal. If a woman approaches any animal and has sexual relations with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them. (Lev 2015-16)

Here in connection with sex with animals both men and women are mentioned in two parallel passages. But in the law about homosexuality we read only

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. (Lev 2013)

This law is not followed with a similar law for women, neither here nor anywhere else in the Old Testament. Likewise in the New Testament, in the laws issued by the Christian Byzantine emperors, and in the Hadith we find rarely any reference to homosexuality among women.

It may be that reason for the scarcity of references to homosexuality among women is partly that sex in ancient cultures was associated closely with genital penetration and this was not possible among women. But still if homosexuality had been common among women we should expect it to receive much greater mention in the legal and religious traditions of the past than it actually did.

Keeping the above facts in mind, we can now explain why feminine allatan is not used in verse 15 while its masculine equivalent alladhan is used in verse 16. In case of men, apart from fornication and adultery covered in 242, homosexuality is the most common form of fahishah and so it is the focus in verse 16. Other forms of fahishah such as bestiality can be dealt with by analogy. In case of women, neither homosexuality nor probably any other one type of fahishah, other than heterosexual zina`, is particularly common and consequently no particular type receives a special focus; fahishah is left in its general form covering homosexuality, bestiality and even other acts like striptease shows. To refer to fahishah in this general sense, the use of allatan (?those two women?) is not suitable. Hence the general plural allati (those women) is used... This is somewhat similar to the reference to four witnesses in verse 15 in case of women while there is no such reference in case of men in verse 16, where it is left understood. This is because women are much more adversely affected by accusations of sexual indecency than men, and therefore the rules of evidence are mentioned in case of women (see also 244, 13, which also mention witnesses only in connection with women) and left understood for men. Similarly, homosexuality is much more common among men than among women and so it is mentioned especially for men while for women it is left understood.

?among your women? (min nisa`i kum). Here ?your? (general masculine plural) could refer to Muslim men or the whole Muslim community. ?Your women? can cover both married and unmarried women (see 245, 2187, 361 etc).

?commit fahishah?. The word translated as ?commit? in both verses is in the present tense (yatina and yatiyani). Although this is not always the case (see 419) but this tense often suggests a repeated action. Contrast this with 425, which talks of adultery, where the verb is in the past tense (atayna), suggesting a one-time action.

?provide against them four witnesses from among you?. As noted above, this rule is implicitly understood for the case of men in verse 16. Once again the verse uses ?among you?. If the address is to the believing men, then this means that witnesses are men. If ?you? refers to the whole Muslim community, then the witnesses can be men and/or women. Even in the first case it is possible that the emphasis is not on the gender of the witnesses but on their being believers. That is, the meaning is not that the witnesses should be men but that they should be believers.

?Then if they testify, confine them to the houses?. ?The house? could be the house of the guilty woman, her family?s house, or her husband?s house, if the husband does not divorce her. It could also be a place belonging to the community, a kind of prison where the woman can live as in a house. If the imprisonment takes place in the house of the woman or her relations, then the Islamic government should supervise it. Firstly, it should ensure that due confinement does take place and, secondly, to provide every possible type of help needed for reform.

In this verse the punishment in case of women is specified while for men, as we shall see, it is left open. This is probably for the protection of women because when the punishment has been specified, the authorities cannot make it harsher.

?till death takes them or God provides for them a way out?. Women may engage in fahishah because they cannot get married as a result of some defect from which they suffer or because their marriage for some other reason is delayed far beyond the age of their sexual maturity or because of a deviation in their sexual urges. The purpose of imprisonment is to eliminate opportunities for fahishah and at the same time provide opportunity for reflection under the influence of suitable education and training. This imprisonment is to continue till death unless ?God provides for them a way out? before that. These words are often understood to mean that ?unless God reveals a different type of punishment? which he did in Qur`an 242 or in the hadith of ?Ubadah bin al-Samit. But this interpretation is not at all satisfactory. First, as noted earlier it is far from clear why 242 should be considered later than 415. Second, ?God providing a way out? is something positive rather than another form of punishment. Third, there is no reason why God could not have given the best punishment in verse 15 instead of first giving a different punishment, presumably not so good, and promising to give a better one at a later time. Fourth, for women imprisonment seems to be the best punishment for unnatural sex.

The meaning of ?till God provides for them a way out? is simply that God changes the circumstances so that the causes of the bad ways are removed. For example, if the deviant sexual behavior was caused by difficulty in finding a marriage partner, such a partner may become available at some point. The imprisonment will then end, if there is a real possibility of reform. If the behavior was due to deviation in sexual urges, imprisonment after a certain period may lead to reform and it may be possible to resume normal marital relationship. Again the imprisonment will end at that time. Both eventualities are far from being easy and so the change of circumstances is described as ?God providing a way out?, although admittedly even easy things come from God.

Thus the words ?till God provides for them a way out? are meant to make us look forward to the possibility of reform and healing rather than focus on punishment. Those who take the words as a promise for another, different, type of punishment are focusing too much on punishment, which is not the focus in these verses. This will also become clear when we comment on the next verse.

As noted in Ch. 4, imprisonment is also the punishment for adultery in the code of the Christian emperor Justinian. But the Quranic punishment, apart from the fact that it is not for adultery but for unnatural sex, differs from the Justinian code in the following important way In the Justinian code the husband can get the woman out of confinement within two years; if he does not, then she remains in confinement for life. In contrast, in the Quran the imprisonment can end at any time and not just if the husband decides to take her back; any circumstances with a reasonable promise of rehabilitation of the woman and healing of the social, moral, and spiritual wounds caused by the crime can secure her release.

?And the two (alladhan) among you who commit it? (fahishah). As noted earlier this refers to two men in a homosexual relationship. This is the third time kum is used in the two verses. Once again we can take the word as an address to the male believers or to all believers. If it refers to male believers, then this would make it all the more necessary to take the reference to two men and to a homosexual relation between them. Some commentators take the reference here to all believers while in the phrase ?four among you? in verse 15 they limit the reference to male believers.

One implication of the repeated use of kum is that the punishments prescribed are meant for Muslims only. Non-Muslim residents in Muslim lands are not subject to it. They should as a rule be punished according to their own traditions, a principle that can be applied to penalties for other crimes.

?punish (adhu) them both?. adhiya means to inflict mental or physical pain by one?s comments or actions (3195, 7129, 961, 2910, 3353, 69, 615). Hence here it can mean both verbal and non-verbal forms of punishment such as scolding, condemnation of the offence with reference to its disgusting nature, beating, flogging, social boycott, exile, and even imprisonment. Since men generally have certain responsibilities that require going out, their punishment is not specified as imprisonment but neither can that punishment be excluded from idha`. If, for example, there is a danger that the man may molest young boys, imprisonment may be the only suitable punishment.

For men, imprisonment can be in the house as in verse 15, or, in some cases, in a more restrictive jail. The Qur`an does not prohibit the jail system but it also does not talk about it. As a rule, therefore, jails are not something that should be common in a Muslim land. The jail system costs too much to the society and, also, in jails criminals mix with criminals and therefore are not exposed to the kind of influences that are helpful for their reform.

The punishment cannot consist of amputation, since it does not fit with what is said next.

?So (fa) if the two repent and do good, leave them alone?.

Fa can mean ?so?, ?thus?, ?then,? ?but then?. The word can suggest here that the purpose of punishment is to lead to repentance and reform. The whole statement corresponds to the words ?until God provides for them a way out? in the previous verse. The punishment, mental as well as physical, should stop when the guilty person shows clear signs of reform. This cessation of punishment has some important implications First, the punishment should be of such a nature that can be stopped. This excludes amputation. Second, there should be no stigma attached with the person after he has been reformed by repentance, since such stigmatization causes mental anguish which needs to stop. Third, if an act of unnatural sex was committed sometimes in the past, but the person has since reformed, there will be no punishment of that single act. This is because the focus in the verses is on reform, which is not only clear from the above words but also from the fact that the next two verses (417-1 continue the theme of repentance.

This emphasis on repentance and reform suggests that the Qur`an rejects the view that homosexual behavior is something with which a person is born and, therefore, he or she can do nothing to change it.

Surely, God is most accepting of repentance and most merciful?. This reminds us that the merciful God is ever willing to turn to his servants in forgiveness if they duly repent. Therefore, we, too, should show acceptance and compassion after the guilty persons have duly repented.

In summary 242 and 415-16 should be read together and not as one abrogating the other. The first passage, 24;2, gives the punishment for zina` understood as natural sex between a man and a woman not married to each other a maximum of 100 lashes. The second passage, 415-16, prescribes the punishment for other forms of fahishah including homosexuality house confinement in case of women and any type of effective punishment for men. This punishment is aimed at reform of the culprit and should cease as soon as clear signs of reform are visible.

This is that simple, clear teaching given by God that some Muslims in earlier times changed by turning to sources other than his word, importing death penalty for every type of fahishah, and giving their views the authority of the Prophet by fabricating ahadith. And unfortunately many Muslims in later generations followed them in their errors. May the Most Gracious One bring us all closer to his word and the authentic sunnah of his Messenger and have the courage to reject the errors or lies of some earlier Muslims.

http//www.islamicperspectives.com/Stoning5.htm

[Tlepsh]

If there was no difference, why mentioning women alone (in plural) then mentioning "allathani" which could mean a man and a woman? And how is "aathuhuma" synonymous to "amsikuuhunna fil byiout until they die...."?

Inheritance verses clearly speak of "thakar & untha" to clear the ambiguity. "nsaa'" in the context of inheritance is understood as "women". In this verse, the fact that the vese addresses men and women, make one questions what "women of women" would mean. Also signaling women for fahisha without mentioning men or how to deal with them is a big problem. If you have a solution for at least the latter problem, then I am all ears.

Why does the verse mention min nisaa'ikum? Isn't "allaati" enough to show they are "women"? Same thing with allthaani why "min rijaalikum"? Does it mean only two men?

As for sying that "nisaa'" ALWAYS means women, I refer you first to chapter 4 Does it speak mainly, or mostly, of women?

1. Also 4 4
   who is addressed? People. Am I to give a "woman/wife" anything?
   Look up "sadaqa" in the qur'aan and see who is eligible for it. Do women form any part of those who get it?
   What do women get for marriage sadaqa or "ajr"?
   Then what's is this sadqa given to "women"? It's definitely not women.

2. 4127 They ask your legal instruction concerning wmen. Say God instructs you in what concerns them and what's recited unto you in the book concerning
   -mothers with orphans whom you want to mary yet you do not want to pay them what's due to them
   -vulenrable children
   -orphans
   All these three categories are under the title "women".

I would say "the vulnerable", "the dependants"...

Verse 654 the context (maheed) shows it means "women"

I do not know a difference between allaa'ii and allaati or even allawtii

Peace Samia and all,

As far as I can understand from Samia?s post above and her older posts

Nisaa? has two meanings
1- women
2- the dependant

Rajul has two meanings
1- men
2- the independent

Even Sura Al-Nisaa? can be translated in to English as Chapter of ?the dependent?, or Chapter of ?the vulnerable?. From the beginning of this chapter the subject is the most dependent and vulnerable ones ? Al yatama.

So verse 4.15 is also about your dependents ?Nisaa?ukum?.

4.15 And from your dependants who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out.

[Samia]

Thanks Tlepsh. This is my understanding.
And this is why the punishment will not stop them from work for example, since they do not work.
It also involves both genders.

[Mazhar]

Why does the verse mention min nisaa'ikum? Isn't "allaati" enough to show they are "women"?

If min nisaa'ikum was not mentioned how could they be implicated under this verse? One could conveniently say that "allaati" refers to female pets.

[Samia]

If min nisaa'ikum was not mentioned how could they be implicated under this verse? One could conveniently say that "allaati" refers to female pets.

Pets, males or females, is a non-human plural and is treated as a single feminine and referred to with allati

[mmouhammad]

Salam,

Are 21 years old 3rd year university students who do not work and their parents pay the tuition fees and other living expenses considered dependent? If so, then when such persons commit Fahisha, they should be confined. Does this make any sense?

Young children and orphans of all ages are dependent; do they commit Fahisha? What kind of Fahisha?

[Mazhar]

Agreed, but in that case too it will need to clarify "who is she/who are these females". After "those" their group of which they are the part need to be identified. Here the issue is regarding "fahashi" which can be done secretly individually, man in the company/alongwith another man , woman individually, or woman with woman , man with woman . Therefore gender of all words in 415 are all plural and feminine; and 416 dual masculine. A general law is laid down and the course of action for such obsessed lesbian women who are so open that even four witnesses are available, such "sick" daughters/sisters need to be restrained in their houses by their elders which will restrict their socialization with other girls/women, that may supress their "disease". Such cases are very rare but still possibilty is there for which law has been prescribed. Eye witness is necessary otherwise there is no evidence to prove any charge against lesbians. Treatment of a lesbian is only to seperate her from other women.
Here a case was reported where one woman got her self operated on the chest to play "husband", lived like and her vicinity came to know quite late that both were women. Both have been sent to jail, quite stupidly by the court.

On the contrary, two men indulging in the act of alfahisata" there is no need of 4 eye witnesses. And just minor punishment has been prescribed. Except for Az-Zina, Fahashi could be done by hundreds of methods. Az-Zina is extreme Fahish but every fahish is not Az-zina.

[Samia]

Therefore gender of all words in 415 are all plural and feminine; and 416 dual masculine. A general law is laid down and the course of action for such obsessed lesbian women who are so open that even four witnesses are available, such "sick" daughters/sisters need to be restrained in their houses by their elders which will restrict their socialization with other girls/women, that may supress their "disease". Such cases are very rare but still possibilty is there for which law has been prescribed. Eye witness is necessary otherwise there is no evidence to prove any charge against lesbians. Treatment of a lesbian is only to seperate her from other women.
On the contrary, two men indulging in the act of alfahisata" there is no need of 4 eye witnesses. And just minor punishment has been prescribed. Except for Az-Zina, Fahashi could be done by hundreds of methods. Az-Zina is extreme Fahish but every fahish is not Az-zina.

So, acording to you, lesbianism is a "disease" that calls for the elders to restrict these "sick" daughters; but male homosexuality calls for just a minor punishment? Why? Where in the qur'aan do we have different punishment for the same sin based on gender? This is the whole problem with interpreting these verses on homosexuality and lesbianism basis or on women/men basis.
Why is it "women" but "two men" when it's about homosexuality?
The 4 eye witness is a pre-requisite for any accusation of fahisha, or else the accuser will be punished.

Salam,

Are 21 years old 3rd year university students who do not work and their parents pay the tuition fees and other living expenses considered dependent? If so, then when such persons commit Fahisha, they should be confined. Does this make any sense?

Young children and orphans of all ages are dependent; do they commit Fahisha? What kind of Fahisha?

University students are not dependents. Anybody past maturity and in good physical and mental health is not a dependent. I do not know where you get this definition from. By "dependent" I meant a person who cannot survive without being dependent on some other person, and not someone who "chose" to wait for a better job. And if children do not commit fahisha, they wont be punished. Other kinds of dependents can. Just think of the mentally ill.

[Mazhar]

So, acording to you, lesbianism is a "disease" that calls for the elders to restrict these "sick" daughters; but male homosexuality calls for just a minor punishment? Why? Where in the qur'aan do we have different punishment for the same sin based on gender? This is the whole problem with interpreting these verses on homosexuality and lesbianism basis or on women/men basis.

For women who are held guilty of lesbianism they are to be . This is not "punishment" in the criminal sense if one is asked to remain at home.
Should women take this also as punishment?

can it mean more than minor punishment?

"homosexuality" amongst men is also a disease/physicall as well as psychological. If not, what is the point that the "passive" is more interested to find some active or get enjoyment from a place which has no connection with any sex cells/system?

[Samia]

For women who are held guilty of lesbianism they are to be . This is not "punishment" in the criminal sense if one is asked to remain at home.
Should women take this also as punishment?

can it mean more than minor punishment?

Just as house arrest is not a punishment? The verse does not say so this "keeping in the homes" is not something according to the common understanding, or whatever "bil ma3roof" means.

can it mean more than minor punishment?

It's definitely less than 100 lashes, which is considered "3thaab torture". It's open, maybe, according to their circumstances. These "rijaal" are bread winners and servers of the society, so "keeping them in the homes" makes more harm than benefit, as the society and other inncocents people depending on them will suffer.

"homosexuality" amongst men is also a disease/physicall as well as psychological. If not, what is the point that the "passive" is more interested to find some active or get enjoyment from a place which has no connection with any sex cells/system?

Actually, the passive homosexual may have more excuse than the active. On the "Y" chromosome, their's a gene that gives the male their self image as a male. If, during the crossing over of the fertilized cell, this gene is lost, its absence gives the passive image, which is that of a female. This is one of the genetic explanations.

[unknownuser]

As for sying that "nisaa'" ALWAYS means women, I refer you first to chapter 4 Does it speak mainly, or mostly, of women?

1. Also 4 4
   who is addressed? People. Am I to give a "woman/wife" anything?

Addressed are the same as in prior verse 43, men encouraged to marry widows and take care of the orphans.

43 ?And??44 ?And?...

Look up "sadaqa" in the qur'aan and see who is eligible for it. Do women form any part of those who get it

The word has to do with kindness, charity, generosity, thus men are asked to give aid to widows with children who are less desirable for marriage than young single women.

What do women get for marriage sadaqa or "ajr"?

This is matter of context, pursuing a woman for marriage for ones own interest or being asked to aid less desirable widows with orphans in distress which in my opinion is more of a godly charitable act to benefit the soul.

Inna almussaddiqeena waalmussaddiqati waaqradoo Allaha qardan hasanan yudaAAafu lahum walahum ajrun kareemun
5718 That truly the charity givers (M) and the charity givers (F) , and (if) they lent/advanced God a good/beautiful loan/ advance, (it) be doubled/multiplied for them, and for them (is) an generous reimbursement

2. 4127 They ask your legal instruction concerning wmen. Say God instructs you in what concerns them and what's recited unto you in the book concerning
   -mothers with orphans whom you want to mary yet you do not want to pay them what's due to them
   -vulenrable children
   -orphans
   All these three categories are under the title "women".

Yes children fall under the category of women?s issues.

[Mazhar]

can it mean more than minor punishment?
It's definitely less than 100 lashes, which is considered "3thaab torture".

Perhaps " " cannot be stretched even to one lashing. I think quite a small number of women feel pain also in periods but it is not pain equal to that of lashing. Its meanings are more in the nature of irritation. How can we stretch it to mean anything we like?

Quran tells that before the nation of Lut alaissalam no men indulged in homosexuality, and then its cause has been told which was of course not of genes, it was deliberate obsession, emotionalism. Has that part of the "passive" any link with the cells of the brain controlling sex matters?

[Samia]

Quran tells that before the nation of Lut alaissalam no men indulged in homosexuality, and then its cause has been told which was of course not of genes, it was deliberate obsession, emotionalism. Has that part of the "passive" any link with the cells of the brain controlling sex matters?

Obsession and emotionalism existed before Lut, didn't they? If we believe what the qur'an says, then we have to suppose that the error is within our own understanding. The "fahisha" of the people of "Lut" was committed by both men and women (case of his wife). We were not made to understand otherwise. We have to look into the words "rijaal" and "nisaa'". In my opinion, if it were about men and women, and since it's about a biological behaviour, we would have been told that they "came unto males instead of females" and the words would have been "thukuur and inaath". My understanding is that they attcked people in the farm, street, workplace..etc and raped them. That would call for the utmost punishment because it hinders the society and make people unsafe. It also explains why Lut was afraid of them, and could really mean "a fahisha not committed by any people before".