We Koranist must save the Muslim youths in Western nations
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Interesting discussion in Umar Lee's blog about how second generation Muslims in the West are having an identity crisis. With the mosques controlled by Sunnis many hang around elsewhere where no knowledge of religion is there. Unlike Muslim countries these people can not learn anything about religion from family and school and society. They have to go to mosques where hardline Sunnis hang around. Many opt to just never go to mosques because of that and are confused. They are vulnerable and they look at the internet to learn about Islam. We must do more to save these kids before they really get lost and become atheist or something. What you think?
Anyways this is the blog discussion
http//umarlee.com/2009/02/16/perspective-digital-divide-online-persona-and-reverse-hijrah/#comments
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Peace,
In Holland I have seen the same problems for years, and since I turned Muslim I have been counceling youth and giving lectures. Now I am working on a new book specially for young Muslims that is called "Rational Islam", wherein I go through rational thought in Islamic history and the universality of the Qur'an and how the Golden Age of Islam together with the universal approach to the Qur'an will give them a new identity focus and inspiration to create their own identity in the West.
They must learn to be proud of something again and use their rational sceptic mind they have been taught in the West to discover rational islam as a basis for a new approach and pride.
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Yeah, as a youth growing up in America I can testify this by my own experience. The Muslim youth in America scare me more than those in the motherland. All they think about is kuffar this and kuffar that. They hate Jews, Christians, Americans, or Israelis 100X more than Muslims in Muslim countries and they take more pride in being a Muslim 100X also.
I asked this 'super Muslim' youth one time who claimed to read Al Quran regularly. I said, "Is dog haram according to Al Quran?" And without hesitation he answered, "Yes it is haram in Al Quran!" )
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Yeah, as a youth growing up in America I can testify this by my own experience. The Muslim youth in America scare me more than those in the motherland. All they think about is kuffar this and kuffar that. They hate Jews, Christians, Americans, or Israelis 100X more than Muslims in Muslim countries and they take more pride in being a Muslim 100X also.
I asked this 'super Muslim' youth one time who claimed to read Al Quran regularly. I said, "Is dog haram according to Al Quran?" And without hesitation he answered, "Yes it is haram in Al Quran!" )
Ahh I've seen them before there always talking about what "muhammad said" and "muhammad did"
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Ahh I've seen them before there always talking about what "muhammad said" and "muhammad did"
I have seen that before also, particularly during the 2001 to 2005 era but then now Wahhabism became weaker and if you go to popular forums where Muslim youths in Britian used to particpate in like Ummah.com or Islamica.com or MPAC.UK you will see a sea change in terms of radicalism. They have definently gone quiet and the hard core salafis are few now.
But I am not sure whether the net is an accurate description of what is going on. After the Wahhabi era where are these youth going? Umar Lee sees the trend going to Westernization and soon apostasy. But he is salafi so he may see it that way for that reason.
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Yeah, as a youth growing up in America I can testify this by my own experience. The Muslim youth in America scare me more than those in the motherland. All they think about is kuffar this and kuffar that. They hate Jews, Christians, Americans, or Israelis 100X more than Muslims in Muslim countries and they take more pride in being a Muslim 100X also.
I asked this 'super Muslim' youth one time who claimed to read Al Quran regularly. I said, "Is dog haram according to Al Quran?" And without hesitation he answered, "Yes it is haram in Al Quran!" )
There was once an article by Ahmed Subhi Mansour about Abu Hurreira and how his love of cats made him bring forth hadiths about dogs. The article was in Arabic and was called "Abu Hurreira and the dogs".
Ha ha!
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Peace,
I agree that the Wahabi era seems to be coming to an end with Muslim youth in America at least. I think the reason they were so successful is that when the Salafi's and Wahabi's propagated their ideology they didn't even mention that it was an ideology. They just talked about it as if it were "Islam," and that this is how Islam has always been practiced.
I still go to the Sunni Masjid for Jumu'ah and I've noticed that everyone has calmed down significantly, and this is amongst all the various ethnic groups that are in attendance. In any case I still promote Islam based on the Qur'an there, I just don't mention that I subscribe to any type of ideology, I propagate just like the Salafis and Wahabis did, ;D and it seems to be working.
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Peace,
I agree that the Wahabi era seems to be coming to an end with Muslim youth in America at least. I think the reason they were so successful is that when the Salafi's and Wahabi's propagated their ideology they didn't even mention that it was an ideology. They just talked about it as if it were "Islam," and that this is how Islam has always been practiced.
I still go to the Sunni Masjid for Jumu'ah and I've noticed that everyone has calmed down significantly, and this is amongst all the various ethnic groups that are in attendance. In any case I still promote Islam based on the Qur'an there, I just don't mention that I subscribe to any type of ideology, I propagate just like the Salafis and Wahabis did, ;D and it seems to be working.
I am sorry but I didn't understand what you mean that you propagate the Koran without making it seem an ideology.
Could you elaborate more on that? They don't know you reject hadiths?
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Peace,
I am sorry but I didn't understand what you mean that you propagate the Koran without making it seem an ideology.
Could you elaborate more on that? They don't know you reject hadiths?
In the beginning I don't tell people that I reject the Hadith. I just tell them what the Qur'an says on specific matters without bringing up any hadith at all. After a few weeks, months, sometimes years, I let them into more of my ideological stances regarding various issues. My main concern is to get these Muslims to stop believing that amputations are "ok," that wife beating is ok, that stoning is ok, I use the Qur'an to prove to them that these practices are Un-Islamic according to the Qur'an. Most people accept these viewpoints if you paint it to them within the framework of the Qur'an. This is especially true considering that I've noticed a significant decline in Salafi influence. I just talk about what I talk about as if it were Islam and nothing but Islam.
Almost 10 years ago when I was introduced to the Qur'an alone idea by the pioneers of "FreeMinds", I would openly tell people I rejected the Hadith. I quickly learned that very very few people would even bother listening to me once I said something as taboo as that.
I've found that a slow and gradual approach is the best way to get people to reconsider their views. Believe it or not I've found that the extreme Salafi's and extreme Shia's are sometimes the greatest converts to the Qur'an only method. I think that if you are extremist minded, you will be an extremist in any ideology that you chose =P.
In any case, most of the people I've been successful with don't necasarily become Qur'an aloners, rather they become Muslims who drop their Sunni or Shia affiliation and don't accept any hadith that contradict the Qur'an or accept as law any hadith that mentions things that are not mentioned in the Qur'an such as "the return of the Mehdi etc." Many others have become Qur'an aloners as well, however, I've found that Muslims have a tough time giving up the hadith entirely.
In any case I'm content knowing that there are a growing number of Muslims that don't believe the head scarf is wajib, that amputations are "sharia", that stoning is "sharia", and that men are equal to 2 females. This is enough for me at the moment. There are so many things discussed on FreeMinds that would just overwhelm the average person that identifies as a Muslim, so the aforementioned progress is huge in my eyes.
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Peace,
In the beginning I don't tell people that I reject the Hadith. I just tell them what the Qur'an says on specific matters without bringing up any hadith at all. After a few weeks, months, sometimes years, I let them into more of my ideological stances regarding various issues. My main concern is to get these Muslims to stop believing that amputations are "ok," that wife beating is ok, that stoning is ok, I use the Qur'an to prove to them that these practices are Un-Islamic according to the Qur'an. Most people accept these viewpoints if you paint it to them within the framework of the Qur'an. This is especially true considering that I've noticed a significant decline in Salafi influence. I just talk about what I talk about as if it were Islam and nothing but Islam.
Almost 10 years ago when I was introduced to the Qur'an alone idea by the pioneers of "FreeMinds", I would openly tell people I rejected the Hadith. I quickly learned that very very few people would even bother listening to me once I said something as taboo as that.
I've found that a slow and gradual approach is the best way to get people to reconsider their views. Believe it or not I've found that the extreme Salafi's and extreme Shia's are sometimes the greatest converts to the Qur'an only method. I think that if you are extremist minded, you will be an extremist in any ideology that you chose =P.
In any case, most of the people I've been successful with don't necasarily become Qur'an aloners, rather they become Muslims who drop their Sunni or Shia affiliation and don't accept any hadith that contradict the Qur'an or accept as law any hadith that mentions things that are not mentioned in the Qur'an such as "the return of the Mehdi etc." Many others have become Qur'an aloners as well, however, I've found that Muslims have a tough time giving up the hadith entirely.
In any case I'm content knowing that there are a growing number of Muslims that don't believe the head scarf is wajib, that amputations are "sharia", that stoning is "sharia", and that men are equal to 2 females. This is enough for me at the moment. There are so many things discussed on FreeMinds that would just overwhelm the average person that identifies as a Muslim, so the aforementioned progress is huge in my eyes.
Interesting. I never thought about it that way.
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I agree with Sarat. You must be discreet about propagating your belief even when it's beyond a shadow of doubt that your belief is the truth. Honesty won't help with prejudiced minds(I'm not saying honesty isn't the best policy. I'm telling to be honest in an inconspicuous way ) )
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I agree with Sarat. You must be discreet about propagating your belief even when it's beyond a shadow of doubt that your belief is the truth. Honesty won't help with prejudiced minds(I'm not saying honesty isn't the best policy. I'm telling to be honest in an inconspicuous way ) )
But isn't that the same thing the Saudi's did? Being discreet about their wahhabism and portraying their teachings as "Sunni" orthodoxy? Won't people would then begin to realize that this is not what Muslim sunni scholars accept? By being discreet aren't you then not confronting the taboos?
But this is an important observation. I have not been supportive of some Koranist labelling themselves as Muslims and talking about the Koran as "Islam". But maybe I am being wrong about that.
Do you also preach to non Muslims? I am curious.
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Peace,
But isn't that the same thing the Saudi's did? Being discreet about their wahhabism and portraying their teachings as "Sunni" orthodoxy?
You are completely right. This is exactly what the Wahabi's and Salafi's did. They portrayed Wahabism and Salafism as orthodox Sunni Islam. The same is true of the Shia, Khomeini ideology which came to be seen as Orthodox Shia Islam. They made you believe that this is how Islam was practiced since the time of the Prophet.
I have to admit I am guilty of propagating in a similar way. I preach Qur'an only Islam as if it is Islam. I make all my arguments based on the Qur'an and only the Qur'an. If I need more information on anything I consult the Qur'an, and if I require further insight I ask for help on these message boards or read the various articles related to the various issues discussed here.
When I speak to people that are not familiar with Islam, I explain Islam based on the Qur'an as well. However, if the discussion does get longer, I do mention that the vast majority of Muslims do not practice Islam based on the Qur'an. They often get confused when I say this, "what do you mean the vast majority of Muslims do not practice Islam based on the Qur'an?" I know... Ironic isint it.
Furthermore, I've also gotten a lot of support from "traditional conservative Muslims" when I debate people who are insulting Islam. I'll be given an argument like "Muslims have to stone their women to death" or some such nonsense. Of course the regular traditional people get all riled up and start barking, however I just ask the person making the argument to find a verse in the Qur'an that asks Muslims to stone anyone for any crime. To which they never have a reply. The traditional Muslims hearing this take heed, and ironically they go and try to find a verse that calls for stoning as a form of capital punishment as well, and naturally come back amazed and shocked that this integral part "shariah" law is not mentioned in the Qur'an.
The question of stoning adulterers is one of the best ways to get a traditional Muslim to begin questioning, and to come and see that the Qur'an does not ask you to grow a beard, does not force to cover your hair (or face), does not ask you to amputate hands for theft, beat your wife, and of course stone adulterers to death. If they believe that these things are non-Islamic, then we have made incredible progress.If they want to truly follow Islam based on the Qur'an, then I am glad to introduce them to that ideology as well, and all the amazing thought provoking things that come with it.
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Peace,
In Holland I have seen the same problems for years, and since I turned Muslim I have been counceling youth and giving lectures. Now I am working on a new book specially for young Muslims that is called "Rational Islam", wherein I go through rational thought in Islamic history and the universality of the Qur'an and how the Golden Age of Islam together with the universal approach to the Qur'an will give them a new identity focus and inspiration to create their own identity in the West.
They must learn to be proud of something again and use their rational sceptic mind they have been taught in the West to discover rational islam as a basis for a new approach and pride.
Salaam brother Arnold Yasin
I wish you all the success with your book and I hope you get it published, as we desperately need unbiased and focused rationality and we do need to show our youth how liberal Muslims have been in the past .
All the best
farida -
I agree with Sarat. You must be discreet about propagating your belief even when it's beyond a shadow of doubt that your belief is the truth. Honesty won't help with prejudiced minds(I'm not saying honesty isn't the best policy. I'm telling to be honest in an inconspicuous way )
Salaam
I know of a person from free-minds who went to preach to the Sunni, with copies of the black stone, without any prior discussion and naturlly he received violent reactions. A gradual approach focusing on minor differences leading to more contentious issues is the right approch in my opinion; if only people would take rational steps instead of blaming others for being irrational. pr
peace -
then now Wahhabism became weaker
Peace,
I agree that the Wahabi era seems to be coming to an end with Muslim youth in America at least.
I do not know if you both speak of wahabism in america, but I am afraid this is wishful thinking "I am speaking in general, not specifically about america". Wahabism or traditional Islam is in its strongest. They are becoming more sinster and professional liars in a serious way, like fabricating "scientific findings" to give credence to hadith; or even fabricating archeological finding to give credence to islamic history. Even more serious is the monies they are investing in their campaign For example, in the UK, almost all Islamic departments I know of in renowned universities are sponsored by SA, the growing number of sattelite channels that support this version, and most of all, the growing number of "amir ul muimineen" leaders who invent laws and punishments for anyone who dares think for themselves. The small light in this sombre picture is the growing number of people who are questioning the significance of hadiths and the added-on Islamic teachings, thanks to the internet and to the safety of western countries. I would also add to these countries, Syria and, to my surprise, the Sudan, where the first tolerates thinkers like Prof. Shahrour, Dr Zakariyya Ozone and maybe others, and the latter for not punishing Dr Turabi for his declaration for rejecting hadith (albeit too late).
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Even more serious is the monies they are investing in their campaign For example, in the UK, almost all Islamic departments I know of in renowned universities are sponsored by SA, the growing number of sattelite channels that support this version, and most of all, the growing number of "amir ul muimineen" leaders who invent laws and punishments for anyone who dares think for themselves.
Salaam,
No exaggeration, I was told that even the Qur?an lesson for women at homes ? Daras gatherings ? are sponsored by SA in London.
peace -
Salaam brother Arnold Yasin
I wish you all the success with your book and I hope you get it published, as we desperately need unbiased and focused rationality and we do need to show our youth how liberal Muslims have been in the past .
All the best
faridaWasalaam sister,
Thank you for your support. Rationality is the key, and although we have a long struggle ahead in freeing the minds, it is the right struggle to dedicate our energy and time too.
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I do not know if you both speak of wahabism in america, but I am afraid this is wishful thinking "I am speaking in general, not specifically about america". Wahabism or traditional Islam is in its strongest. They are becoming more sinster and professional liars in a serious way, like fabricating "scientific findings" to give credence to hadith; or even fabricating archeological finding to give credence to islamic history. Even more serious is the monies they are investing in their campaign For example, in the UK, almost all Islamic departments I know of in renowned universities are sponsored by SA, the growing number of sattelite channels that support this version, and most of all, the growing number of "amir ul muimineen" leaders who invent laws and punishments for anyone who dares think for themselves. The small light in this sombre picture is the growing number of people who are questioning the significance of hadiths and the added-on Islamic teachings, thanks to the internet and to the safety of western countries. I would also add to these countries, Syria and, to my surprise, the Sudan, where the first tolerates thinkers like Prof. Shahrour, Dr Zakariyya Ozone and maybe others, and the latter for not punishing Dr Turabi for his declaration for rejecting hadith (albeit too late).
What I noticed is the situation is changing in Egypt. There is a lot of talk about the Koranist in Egypt and the Egyptian press had articles attacking Aisha and Abu Hurreira and Bukhari. The fact that the fatwa by Al Azhar was recently issued against the Koranist says a lot about the fear the Egyptian clerics have. But there are other places like Pakistan where its seems dead. There needs to be some big news for people to catch on. There is no Koranist state like there is Sunni and Shia. Many people simply have never heard of the Koranists and even if they do they do not know its significance. Koranist are not very politically active. Many liberals in the Arab world are very interested in forming alliances with Koranist. The Arab satellites like Al Jazeera or Al Arabiya do not talk about the Koranist although Al Arabiya net does. Its like they believe they can discuss this topic in their websites but not on TV. Egyptian TV does sometimes especially when there is some debate or controversy.
Al Jazeera is very much Salafi and there is nothing we can do about it. The GCC countries have the wealth in the Arab world and their media is Salafi oriented when it comes to religion. But Egyptian TV I think is catching on slowly.
If you look at the letter signed by Egyptian exiles to Hosni Mubarak demanding reform, the only religious figure there was Ahmed Subhi manosur. A clear indication that as far as Egypt is sconcerned the Koranist have become almost the Muftis of the liberal and secular forces. Gamal Banna also has enormous popularity now there. But I am not sure elsewhere but maybe I am wrong.
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Peace Samia,
I'm not implying that the Wahabi and Salafi days are over. I'm implying that in the United States there influence is beginning to wane especially since Muslim youth have the internet to learn about Islam, and that many of our viewpoints are now easy to find on the web.
But yes, the Wahabi threat remains because it is backed by petro dollars. However, they are now finally acknowledging our presence rather than ignoring it. Which means the real idealogical battle is yet to come. =P