al Masjid al Haram and al Masjid al Aqsa
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I normally don't respond to people who are needlessly hostile but you've asked me a few questions so, despite my better judgment, I will respond.
Again, I have not done an exhaustive study so I won't confidently state the various terms we're discussing mean this or that.
Thank you for this admission.
What I can confidently say at this point is that it is incredibly likely that the interpretation of these terms were institutionalized and attached to the text.
Confidently, without proof or without exhaustive study.
I say that because a) the 'hyper-ritualistic' nature of the hajj seems very pagan, b) historical evidence indicates that things didn't play out the way our "scholars" would like us to believe and c) this happens all the time, the forcing of meanings onto text, and the process of nominalization. It is not a conspiracy theory but basic common sense, assuming one understands how the flow of history and politics/power works.
The rituals of the Hajj of Islam are pagan and idolatrous. You will not hear me say otherwise as the proofs are there for any who studies. They are based on the esoteric mystery schools and Kabbalist teachings of Babel. As proven in the reply above.
But we are commanded to visit the House, as it is a place of sacrifice. The sacrifices given at Masjid Al-Haram/House are not shared with the poor and believer, but buried instead.
You have not given any proof. As far as I can tell, you have simply stated that Safa and Marwa are what they are because your ancestors/scholars have told you that's what they are, and then you "backed" that up with a Google image showing the names of the two mountains. You're simply misunderstanding the argument, and I'm starting to genuinely question why, because you seem like an intelligent person otherwise.
If Allah leaves a monument, I can expect to see it. These are signs of Allah, just as the signs of Isa (pbuh) and his mother, the Pharoah, the Companions, and Noah's are still signs today.
Signs for mankind
Noah?s Ark - Turkey Surah 2915
Preserved Pharaoh ? Ramses II Surah 1090-92
Isa (pbuh) and Mary ? Kasmir Surah 2191
Companions of the Cave ? Ephesus Surah 189"That; and whoever respects the signs of Allah, this surely is of the piety of hearts." Surah 2232
I have given proofs not only from the Quran but from the world we live in. You are more than welcome to deny them. In the End, we will both know who is rightly guided and who is following their Free Will, Iblis. I am not responsible for you, nor am I your guardian.
I believe in the Quran. All of it.
And I will continue to "quibble" about the way you post, as well as discuss the content of your post. I can do both. You have been very hostile in this thread, for no good reason.
Bring proofs or keep silent, it's wiser.
"That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, and those who believe follow the truth from their Lord; thus does Allah set forth to men their examples."
Surah 47 is a Surah to study to understand why I treat some with sternness, and others with gentleness.
"That is because they hated what Allah revealed, so He rendered their deeds null." Surah 479
"And there are those of them who seek to listen to you, until when they go forth from you, they say to those who have been given the knowledge What was it that he said just now? These are they upon whose hearts Allah has set a seal and they follow their low desires." Surah 4716
I have no problem standing up to falsehood and giving proofs from the Quran and from the world around us; I fear Allah, not man.
"And those who believe say Why has not a chapter been revealed? But when a decisive chapter is revealed, and fighting is mentioned therein you see those in whose hearts is a disease look to you with the look of one fainting because of death. Woe to them then!" Surah 4720Fear Allah, not man
Surah 3339, 2045-46, 3173-175, 1015You are comparing the events of this thread to the situation Muhammad found himself in, wherein he was being physically assaulted by clear unbelievers putting his entire community's life at stake? Really??? Just because there have been people here who seek to deceive and mislead does not automatically mean ayman or I am one of those people. What is your criterion for an unbeliever? Someone who disagrees with you on the particular interpretation of a quranic issue? That's what it appears to me.
Those who seek to mislead will be met with the Truth. You may not be one of these people, but I have read Ayman's posts. He is seeking to misguide from the revelation of Allah. The stickied 'Hot' Ramadan is proof of this misdirection from the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh), revealed by Allah, and back to pagan worship of nature and the sun.
Don't get defensive. If the shoe does not fit, the description of unbeliever, than don't take offense to it. Give proofs.
I admire your zeal to do what you think is right but your hostility is misplaced. The entire world is not against you. We have gathered on this forum to discuss the quran. We disagree on interpretations, and we discuss them. This is what quranic study is all about. Why the hostility?
We are not taught to study in a large group.
Ponder the Quran in twos or singly Surah 3446, 2219, 3191, 482, 1612, 2368, 3829
I am providing my beliefs based on proofs from the Quran and what I have researched. If someone wants to discredit or correct me, then provide clear proofs.
You got in between Ayman and I, seeking him as a guardian. If you do not want to be involved between Ayman and I, do not get involved.
"Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite. That is because they say to those who hate what Allah has revealed We will obey you in some of the affairs; and Allah knows their secrets." Surah 4725-26
My statements stand Safa and Marwa are signposts of Allah. They are near the House for pilgrimage. And even now I can ask where Safa and Marwa are, and they are two small mountains partially enclosed within Masjid Al-Haram.
Show me another Safa and Marwa if you speak truthfully.
The timeline of this thread went simply like this
- raginggaijin expressed that a verse literally said something when it clearly did not.
buzzer Wrong. I gave the Surah then I gave my explanation of it based on the proofs found in the Quran and in the world. You don't like my wording, so be it. But do not pretend to put words in my mouth nor to declare the unseen of my intentions, which you know not.
- ayman asked raginggaijing to remove the reference because the verse did not literally say that.
- raginggaijin called ayman (and soon, myself as well) an unbeliever.
And the label still stands for Ayman. His own words prove to me he is not seeking guidance from Allah but striving to turn towards the pagan beliefs of Babel.
The verdict is still out on you though. I understand your desire to make peace between people who profess to believe.
What exactly makes me or ayman an unbeliever? The fact that we take issue with your reckless verse-quoting?
See the above and let us continue, shall we?
Ayman made the attack, I respond in kind. You seek to guard him, I respond in kind. May Allah guide me to a right better than this if I am wrong. I respond in kind to what I am given. Surah 16126
The idea that one cannot dispute the validity of a rendered interpretation without first giving a definite meaning himself is, quite simply, fallacious. So, because I don't know the exact meanings of certain concepts, I have to simply bow my head to what the scholars have stated the meanings are? Hardly.
Proofs were given. Those proofs are not what were disputed, but how I worded it.
He did not explicitly refute the central point. In fact, you both do not refute the central point.
You both attack the writer and criticized the writing without addressing the substance of the argument.Rhetoric fail.
These sorts of arguments have been used throughout history in all arenas of life. When abolitionists were trying to ban slavery in the U.S. for moral reasons, one common rejoinder from slave-owners was that there didn't exist a better economic system that could survive without slaves. In other words, they were saying "show us your proof that what we're doing is not right, show us how you'll replace our system." Do you see the similarity? Just because I don't know exactly how to replace the slave-holding system doesn't make the institution of slavery any more moral or correct. Lack of an alternative theory is not justification for the validity of the "mainstream" theory.
Show how Safa and Marwa are not signposts of Allah. Give proofs.
Show how Safa and Marwa did not exist during the time of Muhammad (pbuh). Give proofs if this is your claim.
Show how Safa and Marwa are not partially enclosed by Masjid Al-Haram. Give proofs if this is your claim.You have not addressed the argument I have proven Safa and Marwa are monuments of Allah that may be passed around when going on pilgrimage to the House. I have proven Safa and Marwa exist in the world today.
Prove what I have stated is not right.
Instead, you attack the writing. Proof of this claim is in your own words, which are quoted above. P
It's funny you espouse critical thinking, when it's quite clear you're content to not use it yourself. Additionally, I never said you have to be a scholar to understand the quran. Again, shades of gray. Just because the core message is simple does not mean that one cannot question the accepted mainstream interpretation of various concepts. I urge you to think critically, to study up on history to realize how things typically play out and indeed how they did play out in Islamic history, etc.
This is where you move from attacking the writing to Ad Hominem You attack the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the argument.
"And if We please We would have made you know them so that you would certainly have recognized them by their marks and most certainly you can recognize them by the intent of speech; and Allah knows your deeds.
And most certainly We will try you until We have known those among you who exert themselves hard, and the patient, and made your case manifest." Surah 4730-31I'm assuming you are here on this forum because you eschew the use of ahadith and realize there were many hypocrites who used ahadith to further their own agenda. If that is the case, why are you so diametrically opposed to the idea that similar actors used other methods to further their agenda? Namely, the forcing of meanings onto the text.
Because Allah is clear
Allah condemns hadiths Surah 7185,12111, 316, 456, 5234, 6844, 7750
"Say "The Truth has arrived, and falsehood neither originates, nor reproduces." Surah 3449
?Nay! We cast the truth against the falsehood, so that it breaks its head, and lo! it vanishes; and woe to you for what you describe;? Surah 2118
The followers of Hadith cannot make up anything new, so they have to slowly, gradually, make the changes to the systems established by Allah. But in the end, they will always be the same All roads of disbelief lead back to Babel.
In order to feed the lie, the disbelievers have to have some Truth in it or it won't be believed.
We are to make pilgrimage to the House, using Safa and Marwa as beacons of Allah to guide us. We are not commanded to do anything at the House except remember Allah and what He has provided us, bring a goodly-gift/sacrifice to the House as sacrifice to be given to the believers (poor and rich alike), and to serve Allah.
No act of devotion in Pilgrimage except the sacrifice, which is buried today instead of given out. Surah 2228, 33-34, 2267, 2196, 6162,
"The life of this world is only idle sport and play, and if you believe and guard He will give you your rewards, and will not ask of you your possessions. If He should ask you for it and urge you, you will be niggardly, and He will bring forth your malice. Behold! you are those who are called upon to spend in Allah's way, but among you are those who are niggardly, and whoever is niggardly is niggardly against his own soul; and Allah is Self-sufficient and you have need, and if you turn back He will bring in your place another people, then they will not be like you." Surah 4736-38
You say people go to the House in pilgrimage! I say "So? We are commanded to in the Quran." Surah 2125, 2158, 397, 52, 597
There are those who profess to be believers, but are not. Surah 28-9
There are those who seek to cover what Allah reveals. They earn their reward. Surah 2174-176What will be interesting is when I visit the House, what will they say when I turn my back on the Kaaba and face Masjid Al-Haram as commanded by Allah. Surah 2144,149,150
I am commanded to serve Allah and follow only what He revealed. I am commanded to be among the first to submit to Allah.
Insha'Allah, I will not die unless I am a believer.
Bear witness I submit to Allah.
Pray for guidance. Surah 245
May Allah continue to guide us to the Truth.
Peace.
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@hope4 At the moment no one can go into Arabia and do an independant archaeological digs to varify anything.
Many non-Muslims commit themselves to the logical fallacy of resting on "absence of evidence". And while archaeological undertakings in Mecca are not permitted, there is enough evidence for the academia to have denounced the anti-Islamic polemic of "challenging" Muhammad and Mecca as "shame" and "facile assumptions".
A 19er argued that there is no evidence of Mecca in pre-Islamic literature, and proposed that Becca is the city referenced. I asked him to find me the "all-popular" Becca in the pre-Islamic and post-Islamic literatures, and he is still looking for it. Again, he was playing the "absence of evidence" card, but little did he bother to think how he would deal with it if things were put the other way around. The practice of referring to an entity with more than one appellation is not unattested to in the Quran, and this thins his argument further.
In a diametrically opposite view, some non-Muslims have proposed Jerusalem as the referenced city. Not only is "Jerusalem" ever mentioned in the Quran verbatim, we do know the history of this city, possibly going back at least around three thousand years. So not only is this approach ignorant but also hypocritical in its nature. Maybe a group of Muslims can undertake an independent archaeological expedition out there; there is a good chance of further unearthing rampant polytheism which William Dever and others have repeatedly pointed out.
In all, two words can sum up the anti-Muslim polemic of the likes of Smith and Amari and other non-Muslims erroneous and hypocritical.
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Peace Raginggaijin,
You read the Quran and it states Safa and Marwa are sign posts for the believer. True or false, ayman?
What do you mean? Please translate the words and , if you know their meaning. It seems that you ignore their meaning.
Here, let me repost the ayat for you since you must have missed it.
"Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them." Surah 2158
You look where Safa and Marwa are and they are two mountains partially enclosed by Masjid Al-Haram.You don't know what the words and mean. How do you expect people to believe you when you are clueless about their meaning? Translate them and we will see if they mean "two mountains partially enclosed by Masjid Al-Haram" in the Arabic language or if this is your pagan fantasy.
Now was that so hard?
Apparently it is hard for you since you don't even know the basics such as the meaning of and and are thus unable to translate them.
So the statement still stands
Safa and Marwah are two small mountains that are partially enclosed now by Masjid Al-Haram Surah 2158
If you did your research you would have known that.If you did your research then you would at least know what the words and mean in Arabic instead of lazily presenting nonsense that everyone can readily get from any cultist bearded Sunnis site.
Allah gave you a brain and a slew of resources at your fingertips. Use them
Thanks for the advice. I am trying, are you?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Raginggaijin,
What do you mean? Please translate the words and , if you know their meaning. It seems that you ignore their meaning.
You don't know what the words and mean. How do you expect people to believe you when you are clueless about their meaning? Translate them and we will see if they mean "two mountains partially enclosed by Masjid Al-Haram" in the Arabic language or if this is your pagan fantasy.
Apparently it is hard for you since you don't even know the basics such as the meaning of and and are thus unable to translate them.
If you did your research then you would at least know what the words and mean in Arabic instead of lazily presenting nonsense that everyone can readily get from any cultist bearded Sunnis site.
Thanks for the advice. I am trying, are you?
Peace,
Ayman
Transliterated Arabic
"Inna alssafa waalmarwata min shaAAa-iri Allahi faman hajja albayta awi iAAtamara fala junaha AAalayhi an yattawwafa bihima waman tatawwaAAa khayran fa-inna Allaha shakirun AAaleemun"
"Surely the Safa and the Marwa are among the signs appointed by Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them both; and whoever does good spontaneously, then surely Allah is Grateful, Knowing." Surah 2158
My friends and wife speak Arabic, even though I am still learning, FYI. You didn't think I haven't heard the 'you aren't a native Arabic speaker' argument before, did you? You didn't think we haven't checked the original Arabic Quran for clarification, did you?
Give proofs of Safa and Marwa not monuments/signposts/beacons of Allah.
Give proofs Safa and Marwa are not partially contained within Masjid Al-Haram.
Give proofs Safa and Marwa are man-made.Give proofs of something.
You have given nothing to refute the proofs provided. You have done nothing but attack the characteristics and authority of the writer.
You resort to Ad Hominem as the basis of your rhetoric? Is an attempt at invalidation all you are able to provide as proofs?
Give proofs or keep silent, it's wiser.
Remember Explanation is not proof.
To you is your recompense. To me is my recompense.
Peace.
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peace bro Ayman, all,
You may find it interesting to consider the sequence and tenses in 2158 and then the use of "and whoever volunteered better" in relation to the claim of Safa and Marwah being mountains.
At the very least, this means going between Safa and Marwah is optional according to AQ.
Check out the tafsir of Al-Jalalayn at www.altafsir.com
...this was revealed when the Muslims were averse to this , because the pagan Arabs used to circumambulate them, and there was an idol atop each mountain which they used to stroke. It is reported from Ibn ?Abbs that this pacing is not obligatory, based on the fact that when no sin can be incurred, the context implies free choice. Al-Shfi? and others, however, considered it to be a pillar . The Prophet made clear its obligatory aspect when he said that, ?God has prescribed for you the pacing ?, as reported by al-Bayhaq and others; and he also said, ?Begin with what God has begun?, meaning, al-Saf, as reported by Muslim; and whoever volunteers (tatawwa?a a variant reading is yattawa?, the ta? here being assimilated) good, that is, any good deed such as circumambulation or other, that is not obligatory on him; God is Grateful, for such a deed and rewards that person for it, Knowing, it.
Surprise surprise, more variation and controversy surrounding a suspect rendering of the text ;D
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What does Safa and Marwa mean? Asad's note
126 Lit., "God's symbols". The space between the two low outcrops of rock called As-Safa and Al-Marwah, situated in Mecca in the immediate vicinity of the Ka'bah, is said to have been the scene of Hagar's suffering when Abraham, following God's command, abandoned her and their infant son Ishmael in the desert
I hope any non-Muslim reading this will not be put off by Asad's note; he is pretty well referenced.
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What does Safa and Marwa mean? Asad's note
126 Lit., "God's symbols". The space between the two low outcrops of rock called As-Safa and Al-Marwah, situated in Mecca in the immediate vicinity of the Ka'bah, is said to have been the scene of Hagar's suffering when Abraham, following God's command, abandoned her and their infant son Ishmael in the desert
I hope any non-Muslim reading this will not be put off by Asad's note; he is pretty well referenced.
Non-muslims who are versed in the Bible know the story.
Peace.
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Peace Raging,
Give proofs of Safa and Marwa not monuments/signposts/beacons of Allah.
Give proofs Safa and Marwa are not partially contained within Masjid Al-Haram.If you look up their Arabic meaning in a Classical Arabic dictionary then you would know.
The word "safa" means "a smooth stone" (on which food is prepared) or could also mean "the livestock which are free from defects".
The word "marwa" means the white stone on which a fire is made (for cooking).If you look up the word "sha3air" which you translate as "monuments/signposts/beacons", you will see the same exact word used in relation to livestock (2236)
As you can see the "sha3air" have to do with livestock and not with running between any mountains as a symbol for looking for water for a newborn as part of pagan birth celebrations.
Give proofs Safa and Marwa are man-made.
See what brother Wakas said. Also, the purpose of "hajj" makes it clear that they are manmade. No where in the great reading it is mentioned that the purpose of "hajj" is to re-enact a ritual that symbolizes finding water for a newborn!! This is all related to the manmade pagan birth celebrations with the purpose of "returning sinless like a newborn" if one performs such mindless rituals.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
sometime ago I made a translation trial of the verse
safaa from root
sad fa waw
to have pure/good intentionmarwa
could be from root mim-ra-waw see Lane page 2702
hamza is on top of waw
basically means virtueTay-Waw-Fa = act of going/walking, going/walking around or otherwise, to go or wander about, circuited/compassed, journeyed, came to him, come upon, visitation, visit, approach, drew near, to go round or round about often, encompass,
"the men/people/locusts filled the land like the TWF/flood/deluge", overpowering/overwhelming rain/water that covers,
a servant that serves one with gentleness and carefulness,
a detached/distinct part/portion, a piece or bit, a party/division/sect,
a sort of raisins of which the bunches are composed of closely-compacted berries, a garment in which one goes round or circuits, a place of going round or round about.My understanding of the verse is then
Indeed the good intention and the virtue are practices from the God, anyone Hajj the Beit or i3tamara no sin on him to drew near these 2,
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Peace Raging,
If you look up their Arabic meaning in a Classical Arabic dictionary then you would know.
The word "safa" means "a smooth stone" (on which food is prepared) or could also mean "the livestock which are free from defects".
The word "marwa" means the white stone on which a fire is made (for cooking).Much better, as I know where you are coming from now, however 'could also' isn't something I want to base my soul upon. May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.
Could you show me where in the Quran 'Safa' is used as 'a smooth stone'?
Or where in the Quran 'Marwa' is used as 'the white stone on which a fire is made'?
If you have these, please share them.
If not, I return your gaze to the word 'stone' in both of the translations you gave.Can you tell me what mountains are made of?
Thank you for this information. It may very well be that Safa and Marwa are where the sacrifices are to be prepared and cooked for the pilgrim masses.
You increased my faith. May Allah continue to guide us to the Truth.If you look up the word "sha3air" which you translate as "monuments/signposts/beacons", you will see the same exact word used in relation to livestock (2236)
As you can see the "sha3air" have to do with livestock and not with running between any mountains as a symbol for looking for water for a newborn as part of pagan birth celebrations.
Where did I say you are to run between mountains? I have not. Do not resort to Ad Hominem and double-blind rhetoric; it invalidates your argument and is unbecoming of you.
If you go around a mountain, you are passing by it on the way to your destination. There is no hint of a ritual, as you know the word for 'goes around' is not the word for 'run in between'. I have never said we are to perform any ritual outside of the sacrifice of cattle. Do not add to your burden of sin by adding lies about what I profess, Ayman.
I stated originally the term is signs, and as found by the interpretors the word is translated as ceremonies/symbols/rites/waymarks/sacrifice/beacon/waymark . These are signs of Allah for our devotions to Him. Allow me to repost
Acts of devotion for every nation Surah 2234, 2267
Thank you for the additional information on (shaAAa-iri). I will add Surah 2236, as well as Surah 52, 2232 in which we find the word used.
Put 'rites' in there and see what you come up with. I will leave it up to you do come to your own conclusions, though I ask that you pray to Allah for guidance.
This will help prove to the hadith followers that what they follow is not what is in the Quran, and the word (shaAAa-iri) is proof of this They do not follow the rites given to them by Allah. No where is the 'Black Stone Kiss', 'Obelisk Stoning', 'Hagar Run', or 'ZamZam Drink' a rite of Allah. And the sacrifices are buried instead of given to the poor and the beggar.
Alhamdulillah. This truly increased my iman.
See what brother Wakas said. Also, the purpose of "hajj" makes it clear that they are manmade. No where in the great reading it is mentioned that the purpose of "hajj" is to re-enact a ritual that symbolizes finding water for a newborn!! This is all related to the manmade pagan birth celebrations with the purpose of "returning sinless like a newborn" if one performs such mindless rituals.
Move on, Ayman. No where have I stated we are to run between two mountains, nor stated we are to perform any of the pagan ritual acts. You are fixated. Stop sulking and get over it.
Note This information you provided does not disprove the two mountains are beacons or rites of Allah for those going on Pilgrimage. You've actually proven Safa and Marwa are made of stone. All praise is due to Allah, Lord of the worlds!
I can say that we know where the House is located because you have to go around Safa and Marwa to get there. They are among the signs of Allah, among the rites prescribed by Allah for the believer. Now if you are correct, than that clarifies what is to be done with the cattle sacrificed as per Surah 2236. Allah is truly Bountiful, Provider.
And as for herbman, the statement also stands I do not leave my soul to rest on possibilities.
Give proofs.
Explanation is not proof.
"He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it interpretation but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding." Surah 37
I believe in it. It is all from Allah. All praise belongs to Him and Him alone.
Peace.
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The idea of safa and marwa being optional is pretty interesting. It would indeed be some feast without safa (cooking stone and livestock) and marwa (cooking fire).
@raginggaijin Non-muslims who are versed in the Bible know the story.
But can a non-Muslim (particularly Jew/Christian) ever accept Abraham in Mecca? Why do you think Crone-worship is so rampant amongst them? Why all the propganda?
But there are some good eggs. A Christian once referred me to a non-Muslim website regarding its classical Arabic rendering of an Arabic word; when I showed him what the commentaries actually had to say he was amused at the length of deception some non-Muslims go to. So it is better to check out the classic Arabic rendering yourself.
Regarding the words Safa and Marwa, this is what Tabatabai says in his AlMizan
as-Safa (hard smooth rock); al-Marwah (hard stone)
I might later post what Lane's Classical Arabic Lexicon has to say about 'safa' (Book I, p. 1703).
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Peace raginggaijin, Wakas, TheGod , all
I can say that we know where the House is located because you have to go around Safa and Marwa to get there
Why base soul upon? As AQ clearly implies whatever safa and marwa are, they are optional.
The idea of safa and marwa being optional is pretty interesting. It would indeed be some feast without safa (cooking stone and livestock) and marwa (cooking fire).
in my humble opinion, Brother Wakas and TheGod missed a little detail, but Brother raginggaijin had obviously lied
OK, Let's read this verse again
(2158
Inna alssafa waalmarwata min shaAAairi Allahi faman hajja albayta awi iAAtamara fala junaha AAalayhi an yattawwafa bihima waman tatawwaAAa khayran fainna Allaha shakirun AAaleemun
2158
"Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them." Surah 2158as you can see, it is not the safaa and marwa that are optional, it is GOING AROUND THEM which is OPTIONAL. Hence , raginggaijin's claim that you HAVE to GO around Them IN ORDER to reach THE HOUSE is absolutly FALSE , and that causes his "circular Argument" (he calls it Proof brickwall ) to crash !!
Moreover, even IF we assume that
1- safa and marwa = two small mountains.
2- shaAiri = signs
3- yaTTaWafa = Going around
4- Hajj = Pilgrimageit'll still be clear from ANY translation of the verse that
1 - one can do the "HAJJ" even if he Does NOT ''yaTTaWafa" by "Safa and Marwa" !! and so, whatever the true meaning of the words between " " actually is.
2 - one can still do "yaTTaWafa" by "safa and marwa" without having his "Hajj" nullified !! and so, whatever the true meaning of the words between " " actually is.i hope i This helps.
@raiginggaijin
is "there is no blame if you do this" sounds for you like "you have to do this" ??
is what i wrote above resort to any kind of Ad HOMINEM and Double-blind Rhetoric ?Salam
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@quickduck as you can see, it is not the safaa and marwa that are optional
That's a fine observation. But wakas says that whatever safa and marwa be, the Quran clearly implies that they are optional. Looks like he is also obviously lying? (Looks like meat's back on the menu, guys)
What do you think about the "khayran" part of the verse?
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@quickduck as you can see, it is not the safaa and marwa that are optional
That's a fine observation. But wakas says that whatever safa and marwa be, the Quran clearly implies that they are optional. Looks like he is also obviously lying? (Looks like meat's back on the menu, guys)
No, i read from brother Wakas quite a lot, he may mistake or miss details (like all of us do) but i never caught him lying.
What do you think about the "khayran" part of the verse?
We should first translate the word "taTaWWa3a" . the word "Khayran" is not the big deal
as far as i know, the word "tatawwa3" (ع in Today's arabic means "being volunteer"
i think i should look further for more translations to see if it fits the context. but the very context of this verse is a problem because we all don't agree yet on the true meaning of the several keywords in that same verse ( safa and marwa, hajj, yaTTawafa, etc...)salam
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""Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them.""
So God wants to highlight the going around stones as something like a pagan practice of worshiping and going around stone idols and tells the Hajj visitors its no blame even if they go around the stones as a ritual or unknowingly?
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""Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them.""
So God wants to highlight the going around stones as something like a pagan practice of worshiping and going around stone idols and tells the Hajj visitors its no blame even if they go around the stones as a ritual or unknowingly?
Of Course not.
And that leads us to the FACT that the traditional translation/meaning could be nothing else than False, thus resulting from pagan beliefs. )
Salam
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@quickduck Why double standards? If wakas can make a mistake so can somebody else.
What do you think "being volunteer" for khayr implies?
I might have caught one. Watch.
@amin So God wants to highlight the going around stones as something like a pagan practice
Where did you get that God wants to highlight anything as "something a pagan practice"?
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"Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them.""
Just my question, based on the translation above. since in there.. "there is no blame on him if he goes round them."
Even we consider those "Safa and Marwah are mountains, can you explain if the above translation is right, what God means by the words highlighted?
