al Masjid al Haram and al Masjid al Aqsa
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@raginggaijin Non-muslims who are versed in the Bible know the story.
But can a non-Muslim (particularly Jew/Christian) ever accept Abraham in Mecca? Why do you think Crone-worship is so rampant amongst them? Why all the propganda?
This solar/star/planet worship began in Babel and continues to this day; only the names have changed. Start with the teachings of Sumeria, with El/Chronos, Asheroth/Venus, and YHWH/Baal/Jupiter as an example of the original Trinity God the Father, consort of the God, and their offspring. It is believed to begin with Nimrod, Semiramis, and Tammuz, as this is found in the Bible and reinforced in the Sumerian teachings as shown above. We know in the Quran those who lived during the time of Abraham (pbuh) worshiped the stars and planets. Go through each faith of man and see how this continues even to this day.
The Mother is the moon Semiramis/Asheroth/Asherah/Ishtar, the Son is the star Tammuz/YHWH/Baal/Adonis. Focus is on this in the faith of man called Islam as the Mother and Son worship of the pagan of old Mother = Hagar, son = Ishmael (pbuh). 7 is the esoteric mystery school number for completion.
Look to the Catholic renditions of Mary, mother of Isa (pbuh). What is it she stands on? A crescent moon. The S(u)n of God has a disk behind him, representing the sun, as he takes the place of the Father. Same story from Sumeria to Zoroastrian to Judaism to Greek to Rome to today. Even the Christians say Isa (pbuh) will be given the Judgment by the Heavenly Father on the Day of Judgment.
There is so much more, if people research it.But there are some good eggs. A Christian once referred me to a non-Muslim website regarding its classical Arabic rendering of an Arabic word; when I showed him what the commentaries actually had to say he was amused at the length of deception some non-Muslims go to. So it is better to check out the classic Arabic rendering yourself.
The fact this sentiment is stated over and over again proves to me people do not read my comments and gloss over.
I confirm from the original Arabic Quran. As my wife speaks Arabic and Farsi, she has been of much assistance in our studies and my progress of learning Arabic. I have been met with this invalidating argument by followers of hadith, I have to read the original Arabic Quran. If a Scottish-American farm boy can learn Arabic, no one has any excuse not to know what the original Arabic Quran reveals.May Allah pour down patience upon the believers from Most High.
Regarding the words Safa and Marwa, this is what Tabatabai says in his AlMizan
as-Safa (hard smooth rock); al-Marwah (hard stone)
I might later post what Lane's Classical Arabic Lexicon has to say about 'safa' (Book I, p. 1703).
Thank you. You continue to provide proofs. Alhamdulillah!
May Allah continue to guide us to the Truth.
Peace and blessings.
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peace quickduck, all,
You are right in the correction you made, however I stated the same thing previously in this thread "At the very least, this means going between Safa and Marwah is optional according to AQ.". In the post you refer to, I just shortened my statement for brevity, although I would say I see no practical difference since nothing else is ever mentioned with regard to safa and marwah in AQ.
For my view of 2158 see here.
RA786, I just remembered the name of the idol, it is "dhu al shara", you can research it online. Here is a nice summary
http//www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/history/arabic.txt -
Naah, buddy, I wasn't suggesting that you don't check with the Arabic Quran. Didn't mean to give that impression. Never. Nyet.
Regarding 'safa' in Lane's, it says 'a smooth stone' or 'a smooth rock'; 'a stone that is hard, smooth, large and uncultivable'.
(A she-goat or a she-camel or an ewe abounding with milk is said to be 'safat' or 'safwat' or tasfu'
So there you have the meaning of 'safa' in Lane's classical Arabic lexicon, and Tabatabai's rendering of AlSafa as 'hard smooth rock' is spot on.
So it is not entirely true when non-Muslims say that the meanings of words in classical Arabic is completely different from what is understood today.
(Ann, Jax, Blondie, Scorpion, Susan, Amina....done here. Find me at free-islam.com or the other usual haunts.)
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RA786, I just remembered the name of the idol, it is "dhu al shara", you can research it online. Here is a nice summary
http//www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/history/arabic.txtSalaam Thanks Brother, I looked at the List...It says
"Daughters of Allah"
Allat (Ilat) "the Goddess" Mother goddess, Goddess of
Taif (east of Mecca)
....al-Uzza, Lady `Uzzay-an "the Most Mighty."Is this where we get the Reference in the Quran where Allah states that He does not have a Daughtor and how the Evil People Attributed "Ezra" to Him?
"In Judaic and Christian lore Uzza has been also used as an alternative name for the angel Metatron in the Sefer ha-heshek. More commonly he is referred to as either the seraphim Semyaza or as one of the three guardian angels of Egypt (Rahab, Mastema, and Duma) that harried the Jews during the Exodus"Dhu-al-Shara/Dhu-'sh-Shara/Dushares {Block of
black stone, 4x2} Dying god, son of the Earth
mother. Sacred day, Dec 25.
Hubal Chief god of Ka'bah (Allah?)Hummm.... hmm Sounds like "Jesus" (obviously)
Robert Moory is famour or rather Infamous for his writtings about The Moon Gods Allah, Allat, Hubal and all the other pegan gods who are supposedily "Allah". He has been refuted many times by Islam Awakened.
What I find Interesting is that there seems to be this Consistant Primortial Battle of Shirk and Monotheism. Abraham Smashed the Idols in his Fathers Shop...Muhammad Smashed the Idols in his Uncle's Land (Mecca) and Moses Smashed the Calf Idol as well as destroying the Egyptian Pharohanic System....(Even I had smashed my Previous Idols when I joined Islam) D.
But what History has shown is that the People Continued to retreat back to their Idols. Abrahams people stayed with their Idols, Moses's People Retrated back to their Idols...and now the Arab's have retreated back to their Idols.
I hold a Different Belief from Everyone here I guess... I believe Everyone is a Little Right... Perhaps Ayman is a little right, Robert Moorey is alittle right and so is everyone else. However, I Still think the Kabba actually is Our Center Focal Point and is our Sacred Masjid (in Mecca). I just dont think it is how it is today...If that makes sense...
What I have realized is that There seems to be a DIRECT Connection and Corrolation with Peganism. I have Studied African Latin Witchcraft Peganism, looked at Egyptian Peganism, Arabian Peganism, Asian Peganism, and Masonic type rites and rituals.....What I have realized is that there is a Direct Connection between all of them. its always been a battle between "Them" and "Us".
Why I feel the Kaba is so important is because there is a Great Great Love and Obession with it by the Pegan Elites. WHY? why would the Pegans Continue for 1,000's of years to try any and every way to infultrate in order to take control of tis little black bulding?
If this little Black Box in the middle of NOWHERE with NO VALUE NO IMPORTANCE, why would they want it? what? what does it do or have? It MUST have something...somekind of Value.
Personally my ending Theory is that Islam (monotheism) has been Hijacked Again and again in a Primortal Battle by Pegans (Shirk). Intellectual Batttles, Physical Violent battles, Cononial Battles, and even Linguistic Battles... Each time a Prophet comes to Unravel the Lies and breaks the chains of shirk...an evil party comes to re-instill them again through various means.
The Moon was put on the Kaba and the Masjids and Women were separated and Abused....Then Prophet Muhammad Took the Idols off (Moon) and had to wall in his masjid or any other names other than Allah. Then the Sunni (pegans) have Once Again... Added the Moon back to the Top of the masjid and added the pegan symbols back and had added antother name to Allah. And Once again We must take it Off. a Constant Battle of Shirk and Monotheism.
I dont think the Actual Kaba is Pegan, I dont think the masjid is Pegan, I dont think the entire Religon of Islam is Pegan...BUT I think the Moon of the kabba and masjid are pegan and I think the shirk added to islam is Pegan... I think its a complicated Issue and its not just a THIS or THAT...or an ALL or NOTHING....
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Naah, buddy, I wasn't suggesting that you don't check with the Arabic Quran. Didn't mean to give that impression. Never. Nyet.
Regarding 'safa' in Lane's, it says 'a smooth stone' or 'a smooth rock'; 'a stone that is hard, smooth, large and uncultivable'.
(A she-goat or a she-camel or an ewe abounding with milk is said to be 'safat' or 'safwat' or tasfu'
So there you have the meaning of 'safa' in Lane's classical Arabic lexicon, and Tabatabai's rendering of AlSafa as 'hard smooth rock' is spot on.
So it is not entirely true when non-Muslims say that the meanings of words in classical Arabic is completely different from what is understood today.
(Ann, Jax, Blondie, Scorpion, Susan, Amina....done here. Find me at free-islam.com or the other usual haunts.)
Peace be unto you,
Thank you for all you provided. You have assisted me in my own path to the Truth, alhamdulillah.
May Allah continue to guide us to the Truth.
May Allah grant you goodness in this life and in the Hereafter.Peace and blessings.
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What does Everyone think about this? ;D
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/mecca-black-stone-cc-toursaudiarabi.jpg
Section 18 of Quran "Kab'ah as the Spiritual Centre"-Muhammad Mulana Ali Translation and Commentary
And everyone has a goal to which he turns (himself), So vie with one another in good works. Wherever you are, Allah will bring you all together. Surely Allah is Possessor of Power over all things.And from whatsoever place thou comest forth, turn thy face toawrds the sacred Mosque. And surely it is the truth from thy Lord. And Allah is not heedless of what you do.
And from whatsoever place thou comest forth turn thy face towards the Sacred Mosque. And wherever you are turn your faces towards it, so people may have no plea against you except such of that as are unjust---So fear them not and fear Me---and that I may complete My favour to you and that you may go aright.
Surah 2148-150A great honor is thus given to the Sacred Mosque but it must be remembered that the Ka?bah has never been supposed by any Muslim to possess any Divine attribute. The Strange Conclusion drawn by some Christian writers, that the honor thus given to the Ka?bah is a remnant of Pre-Islamic Arab Poly theism or Idolatry, is quite erroneous. The Muslims honor the K?abah because it is their Spiritual Center; They do Not worship it. Even the Idolatrous Arabs never worshipped the Ka?bah, though they had placed idols in it which they worshipped.
It should also be borne in mind that the Famous Black Stone was not one of the Arab idols, nore can the kissing of it in performing the Pilgrimage be looked upon as a remnant of Idoletry. That Stone stands only as a monument.?The Stone which the builders refused is become the head-stone of the corner.?Psalms.11822 Ishmael was looked upon as rejected, and the covenant was considered to have been made with the children of Isaac, yet it was that rejected stone, for which the black stone of the Ka?bah stands as a monument that was to become ?The head stone of the Corner.? The Black stone is unhewn, so it is the stone that was ?Cut out of the Mountain without Hands.? (Dan.245) Jesus Christ made this clear in the parable of the husbandmen, when he plainly told the Israelites that the vineyard (i.e. kingdom of God) would be taken away from them and given to ?other husbandmen.? I.e. To an NON-ISRAELITE people, giving indication of that people in the words ?Did ye never read in the Scriptures, the Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?? (Matt.2142) And he added ?The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.? (Matt 2143) Thus showing that He was refereeing to a rejected nation. Hence if the Black Stone is kissed it is NOT kissed as an Idol or a ?god? but as monument of the rejection of a nation which was to become the cornerstone of the divine kingdom.
By Completing our favor, is meant the bestowing of spiritual favors on them. The Muslim nation was not like any other nation in the world. Nor was mere advancement in the world their goal. The words with which the next verse opens are a further explanation ?Even as we have sent among you a messenger from among you, who recites to you our messages and purifies you.? They are thus told that they have been raised to carry the Divine Message to other people and to purify them and teach them the book and the wisdom. Spiritual light was hence forth to shine from one spiritual Centre alone. If that Message was not conveyed to other people, they had a plea against the Muslims that they had not conveyed the truth to them. The turning of the face to the Sacred Mosque is thus equivalent to proclaiming the truth which had its origin in the Ka?bah to the whole world. If the Muslims did not do it, they failed in their duty to God and man.The Prophet and his followers are told in this verse that with the change of Prophet hood from the Israelites to the Ishmaelite it was necessary to change the Spiritual Center to, ?so that the people may have no plea against you.? The Ka?ba was the house re-built by Abraham and Ishmael, and with Prophet hood now being transferred to the decedents of Ishmael, the Spiritual Centre had necessarily to be changed. The Ka?bah was more over the 1st Spiritual Center the world. (396) and it was in the fitness of things that it should be the LAST spiritual Centre of the Whole World. The words of the next verse which speak of the messenger in almost the same words as the messenger of Abraham?s Prayer in Verse 129.Make this significance still more clear. In the ?Completion of our favors? in the concluding words of the verse there is a reference to the Muslim Nation being the exalted nation of verse 143 who sole object was to carry the truth to the whole world. The Reference is to Abraham?s Prayer in verse 129, as pointed out in the last note. The functions of the Promised Prophet there are exactly the same here.
What I get from this is that 1) Mulana Muhammad Ali uses the Parable from the Bible reguarding the Rejected Stone (from the mountain not made by hands) to mean both the Real Physical Example of Ishmael, and the Symbolic Black Stone on the Kabah. Is he Correct in this? Is Kissing the blackstone Pegan?
- The FIRST house was made in Becca (Surah 396).
in the previous vereses in Chapter 2 Allah Repeatidly Says to COME to the Sacred Mosque from where you are.... Which gives an OBVIOUS connotation of travel. Meaning Not Everyone is Located there so...the scattered people will be made United at the sacred Mosque ....(United at the Kaba in MECCA) - it is also very coinsodencal that the Previous Vereses (2145) talks about the Location of the Qiblah.
So...what do you think? The more I read it...The more I read, I still believe The Qiblah and Sacred Mosque and House is the Kabah in Mecca. What does it mean by "And it was indeed a Hard Test except for those whom Allah has guided."?
Peace
- The FIRST house was made in Becca (Surah 396).
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Peace Raginggaijin, RA768, everyone,
Much better, as I know where you are coming from now, however 'could also' isn't something I want to base my soul upon. May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.
Could you show me where in the Quran 'Safa' is used as 'a smooth stone'?
Or where in the Quran 'Marwa' is used as 'the white stone on which a fire is made'?
If you have these, please share them.
If not, I return your gaze to the word 'stone' in both of the translations you gave.They are only used in 2158 and no where else. So we need to use the word "sha3a'ir" to point to the correct meaning. As I mentioned, the word "saha3a'ir" is 100% clearly used in 2236 to refer to the animal sacrifice. So it is logical that the correct meaning of "safa" and "marwa" also relates to animal sacrifice and not to some mountains.
Can you tell me what mountains are made of?
The two mountains that you wrongly believe to be "safa" and "marwa" are certainly not made of (safa) smooth rock that you prepare food on or the livestock that is free from defects and (marwa) the white stone that you light a fire in for cooking. This is 100% clear. So in your understanding, the words "safa" and "marwa" are completely meaningless and bear no relation to those mountains.
Thank you for this information. It may very well be that Safa and Marwa are where the sacrifices are to be prepared and cooked for the pilgrim masses.
You increased my faith. May Allah continue to guide us to the Truth.Everything that the god tells us has a purpose. The truth is in harmony with the purpose of the "hajj" (feast). On the other hand, the two mountains have NOTHING to do with the purpose of the "hajj"
Where did I say you are to run between mountains? I have not. Do not resort to Ad Hominem and double-blind rhetoric; it invalidates your argument and is unbecoming of you.
If you go around a mountain, you are passing by it on the way to your destination. There is no hint of a ritual, as you know the word for 'goes around' is not the word for 'run in between'. I have never said we are to perform any ritual outside of the sacrifice of cattle. Do not add to your burden of sin by adding lies about what I profess, Ayman.Going around or running around or whatever is all meaningless and has nothing to do with the purpose of the real "hajj" (feast). If you can't relate "going around" two mountains to symbolize looking for water for a newborn to the clear purpose of "hajj" then it is nothing but a false mindless ritual.
I stated originally the term is signs, and as found by the interpretors the word is translated as ceremonies/symbols/rites/waymarks/sacrifice/beacon/waymark . These are signs of Allah for our devotions to Him. Allow me to repost
Acts of devotion for every nation Surah 2234, 2267
Thank you for the additional information on (shaAAa-iri). I will add Surah 2236, as well as Surah 52, 2232 in which we find the word used.
Put 'rites' in there and see what you come up with. I will leave it up to you do come to your own conclusions, though I ask that you pray to Allah for guidance.All those passages relate specifically to the animal sacrifice and not some vague unkonwn "rites" or "mountains".
This will help prove to the hadith followers that what they follow is not what is in the Quran, and the word (shaAAa-iri) is proof of this They do not follow the rites given to them by Allah. No where is the 'Black Stone Kiss', 'Obelisk Stoning', 'Hagar Run', or 'ZamZam Drink' a rite of Allah. And the sacrifices are buried instead of given to the poor and the beggar.
Alhamdulillah. This truly increased my iman.
Move on, Ayman. No where have I stated we are to run between two mountains, nor stated we are to perform any of the pagan ritual acts. You are fixated. Stop sulking and get over it.But the ritual of going around the two mountains is 100% connected to the 'Black Stone Kiss', 'Obelisk Stoning', 'Hagar Run', and 'ZamZam Drink' rites which you admit are pagan. So you are contradicting yourself. All those pagan rituals have nothing to do with the real purpose of "hajj". They have to do with the purpose of "returning sinless like a newborn baby"
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Going around between the two mountains symbolizes looking for water for a newborn baby. The low area lying between two mountains is the best place to find water. Symbolically, it is the area where the water "breaks". Fast paced walking accelerates the water breaking.
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The black stone precisely faces the winter sunrise (the point of the annual birth of the sun and its associated fertility idol).
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The stone cube symbolizes the Arab fertility goddess Allat and therefore in ancient times, it was sometimes enhanced with female features
http//nabataea.net/eyeidolsml.jpg
- The black stone is coming out of Allat's dilated vagina-shaped enclosure. It symbolizes the baby fertility idol head "crowning" as it is coming out from the dialated vagina.
http//i45.tinypic.com/seycd1.gif
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Kissing the head is an ancient Arab tradition that symbolizes asking for forgiveness. The pagans kiss the head to ask the idol for forgiveness and thus they return sinless as newborns like the newborn baby idol.
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Spinning 7 times is a well known ritual of an ancient pagan Arab birth celebration called Subu3. So the pagans celebrate their return as newborns and birth of the idol by spinning around the mother idol 7 times.
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The mother idol is covered in a black dress from head to toe as is the tradition (to this day) with respect to females in Arabia.
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The pagans are wearing newborn style wraps to symbolize their return as sinless newborn babies.
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Next to the pagan temples of fertility idols you always find springs that are said to be "eternal".
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While the pagans venerate and kiss and fondle the female symbols, they stone the male symbol (the obelisk).
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In the spring when the baby idol grows and walks away from the mother idol she leaves footprints where flowers spring up (notice the flower motif around the vase enclosing the footprint next to the cube idol in Mecca)
http//img31.imageshack.us/img31/7341/footprint.jpg
http//img686.imageshack.us/img686/6856/footprint2.jpg
- There are many more closely connected pagan symbols but I think that the idol worship going on in Mecca should be clear by now so let me stop here. If anyone is interested, I can provide more info. I hope that I also answered RA's following question
What does Everyone think about this?
Note This information you provided does not disprove the two mountains are beacons or rites of Allah for those going on Pilgrimage. You've actually proven Safa and Marwa are made of stone. All praise is due to Allah, Lord of the worlds!
Again, all those rituals and symbols are directly related to pagan birth celebrations with the objective of "returning sinless like a newborn", which is why the vast majority of people go to Mecca. If the Sunni and Shia leaders tell people that you will not return like a newborn if you go to Mecca then the next day Mecca will be virtually empty and there would be no "pilgrimage". This is their primary objective.
If you still want to take them as some "mountains" then of course you are free to do so like all sectarians do. However, you will never be to explain on judgment day what two mountains had to do with the real primary purpose of "hajj", to eat and feed the poor.
I can say that we know where the House is located because you have to go around Safa and Marwa to get there. They are among the signs of Allah, among the rites prescribed by Allah for the believer. Now if you are correct, than that clarifies what is to be done with the cattle sacrificed as per Surah 2236. Allah is truly Bountiful, Provider.
Allah is not between two mountains. If you want to know the real location of the god's house then read 2226 which clearly tells us where it is.
Peace,
Ayman
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Allah is not between two mountains. If you want to know the real location of the god's house then read 2226 which clearly tells us where it is.
Peace Ayman, and thanks for your reply with pictures and all... that Vagina thing is a little weird ..... That seems like it could deffinitally be an innovation since the Quran does not speak about Kissing a Stone or any such thing as a matter of fact.
However I have some things Surah 2226 as you have posted does not give a real location of the god's house that Abraham built.
I would also like to reply about what you said reguarding the Oblisk by calling it a Half-Truth.
The Egyptian Oblisk IS IN FACT a Statue of Male Dominance, Sexual Occultic Rituals, and a Symbol of Egyptian Pharonic Oppression.
So, I would NOT Agree with you saying that the Stoning of it is a Symbol of Anti-Man...and Pro-Feminen God...rather, I would say tha the Stoneing of it is a Symbol of Refusing the Shytan (Pharonic Imperialism)...For example, I have posted before on the Stoning of the Devil and its connection to refusing Masonic Dominance, and now the take over..Here to which I have had gotten NO REPLY... lol
The Obelisk
Now, its been said The Obelisk was originally used at the entered to Sacred places in Ancient Egypt.
It was a monolithic symbol of Power, Mystery, and Phallic nature. (its usually known to be pagan and evil)
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/stone5.jpgNow, What is Interesting, is that Anytime you See Masonic, illuminati, or Cult like things of that nature....an Obelisk is not too far as their symbol.
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/stone6.jpgIt is also used in EVERY SINGLE Masonic Allied Country on Earth. Basically.
Washington D.C.(666 ft from bottom underground to top)
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/stone4.jpgAnd Basically Every Country that has to do with Zionism, Global Banking, Occult, or any type of Western Imperialism/Globalism
has this Obelisk in their city, probably on their Capital hill. and They are Usually found Near Ley Line Activity.The Vatican City (Italy)
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/stone2.jpgIsrael (Bahi House)
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/stone3.jpgObelisk of Mecca (Bekka)
What I find Interesting is that the "Holy City" of Mecca Also has one...and it is Used for Hajj.
This Tradition has been passed down and for some reason, only RECENTLY has it been Changed.STONING OF THE DEVIL at Hajj
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/stow.jpg
Pilgrims would Take small stones and Trow them at the Symbolic Devil, while Chanting words of Rejection of Evil,
and Worship of One God (Allah).Why would the Stoning of the Devil be Symbolically Represented as an Obelisk? out of All things in the world.
It gets Better....
Only Recently have The (Saudi Government) Now Implemented a Wall instead of the obelisk.
Sounds Fishy at All?
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/wall.jpgYoutube Video
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZGe92uHtls&feature=player_embeddedAnd Theres More....
Something Seems Strange...
Also, Note that the Abraj Al Bait Towers are being Built Right Upon the Kabba, Thus Towering it and Has a Pegan Moon Symbole Upon the top.
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/abraj_al_bait_towers.jpg
Notice Also how the Word "Allah" is underneath the Pagan Moon Symbol...Weird huh?http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/cheers.jpg
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/bush-sword.jpg
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/obama.jpgIt's a Crazy World I tell you... Call it Conspiracy or call it Crazy...but...There are just too many Coincidences.
Also you have said that the Kabba has been made for Allat (so called daughtor of allah)
However, there are some discrepencies with the Pegan Books... Supposedily it was a Temple Built as a Spiritual Center later taken over by pegans for ALL the idols... or for Hubal the Cheif...and then now as you pst Allaht. Which one is it really?You say The Two Mountains ritual is one of Looking for water for a new born Baby... I reply...Is that bad? or rather, isnt this what we are told anyways? The example of Hagar Looking for water for her son Ishmael? could it just be the same Story?
And I am a little confused... If what your saying is True... How can an Arabian Society Love Women SO MUCH and Ador their Goddess and Stone a Male Phellic....Yet...Hate Women So much in reality to the point of Infantcide of young girls and Love Men? Same Society? Hummmm.... hmm
Then I just think its incredibly odd that a Prophet Muhammad would come from this Land (on or about), and yet..His Message only "breifly" Survived....Hummm.... hmm
I think there is more to this story...its very interesting. I think there are alot of unanswered Questions here and its really getting interesting.
Peace/SalaamI still think The Orgins of Mecca are Good...but the Pegan takeover has once again happened.
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Peace Raginggaijin, RA768, everyone,
They are only used in 2158 and no where else.
Thank you for this admission.
So we need to use the word "sha3a'ir" to point to the correct meaning. As I mentioned, the word "saha3a'ir" is 100% clearly used in 2236 to refer to the animal sacrifice. So it is logical that the correct meaning of "safa" and "marwa" also relates to animal sacrifice and not to some mountains.
Everytime someone uses the term 'it is logical' it means I have no proof, only explanation. I received this message from a follower of hadith when I gave proofs hadiths were made by man and not by Allah, and that hadiths are condemned in the Quran
"it is clear for anyone with any sense of logic and understanding to see your false claims are out of the boundaries of Islam and Allah knows best."
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTkjnN7oZTQThe appeal to logic A refuge for poor rhetoric with lack of proofs.
They are made of/among the signs of Allah. They are not exclusive. Even the camels are a sign of Allah, "We have made them of the signs of the religion of Allah for you; for you therein is much good;" Surah 2236
"And most surely there is a lesson for you in the cattle; We give you to drink of what is in their bellies -- from betwixt the feces and the blood -- pure milk, easy and agreeable to swallow for those who drink." Surah 1666
"And Allah has given you a place to abide in your houses, and He has given you tents of the skins of cattle which you find light to carry on the day of your march and on the day of your halting, and of their wool and their fur and their hair household stuff and a provision for a time." Surah 1680
"O you who believe! do not kill game while you are on pilgrimage, and whoever among you shall kill it intentionally, the compensation is the like of what he killed, from the cattle, as two just persons among you shall judge, as an offering to be brought to the Kaaba or the expiation is the feeding of the poor or the equivalent of it in fasting, that he may taste the unwholesome result of his deed; Allah has pardoned what is gone by; and whoever returns, Allah will inflict retribution on him; and Allah is Mighty, Lord of Retribution." Surah 595
And as I've already stated about the sacrifice of camels; one of the acts of devotion for the believers.
The two mountains that you wrongly believe to be "safa" and "marwa" are certainly not made of (safa) smooth rock that you prepare food on or the livestock that is free from defects and (marwa) the white stone that you light a fire in for cooking. This is 100% clear. So in your understanding, the words "safa" and "marwa" are completely meaningless and bear no relation to those mountains.
Conjecture and double-blind. That is like saying 'When are you going to stop beating your wife'. According to you, you believe I am wrong. You have not brought proofs that are conclusive. In fact, thegod brought translations that further confirm 'stone'.
Regarding 'safa' in Lane's, it says 'a smooth stone' or 'a smooth rock'; 'a stone that is hard, smooth, large and uncultivable'.
Everything that the god tells us has a purpose. The truth is in harmony with the purpose of the "hajj" (feast). On the other hand, the two mountains have NOTHING to do with the purpose of the "hajj"
Going around or running around or whatever is all meaningless and has nothing to do with the purpose of the real "hajj" (feast). If you can't relate "going around" two mountains to symbolize looking for water for a newborn to the clear purpose of "hajj" then it is nothing but a false mindless ritual.
Again Ayman you refuse to acknowledge I never said nor say we should go around the mountains in a mindless ritual. That is your choice, no one is making you do it.
All those passages relate specifically to the animal sacrifice and not some vague unkonwn "rites" or "mountains".
But the ritual of going around the two mountains is 100% connected to the 'Black Stone Kiss', 'Obelisk Stoning', 'Hagar Run', and 'ZamZam Drink' rites which you admit are pagan. So you are contradicting yourself.
How so? Allah says they are signs of Allah, and there is no blame if people go around them.
You cannot accept that I refuse to participate or accept any of the teachings of the hadiths. To do that destroys the strawman you have set up to beat upon.
All those pagan rituals have nothing to do with the real purpose of "hajj". They have to do with the purpose of "returning sinless like a newborn baby"
To which I not only agreed upon but condemned. Again, you cannot admit this because if I do not accept the rituals, then your argument against what I show falls flat.
Allah says Safa and Marwa are among the signs, or as you say, rites of Allah. We know where Safa and Marwa are today, and no one has proved they did not stand during the time of Allah. And we can see in the Quran, they are associated with the House.
The months of the Hajj/Pilgrimage are well known. Surah 2197
If you still want to take them as some "mountains" then of course you are free to do so like all sectarians do. However, you will never be to explain on judgment day what two mountains had to do with the real primary purpose of "hajj", to eat and feed the poor.
Allah is not between two mountains. If you want to know the real location of the god's house then read 2226 which clearly tells us where it is.
Again, you've resorted to Ad Hominem and added Name Calling to your rhetoric, (the bottom of the barrel of rhetoric I might add), which undermines your position.
"Or do those in whose hearts is a disease think that Allah will not bring forth their spite? And if We please We would have made you know them so that you would certainly have recognized them by their marks and most certainly you can recognize them by the intent of speech; and Allah knows your deeds." Surah 4729-30
As well, you have not proven Safa and Marwa were not there at the time of Muhammad (pbuh) nor that they were named as such after the time of the Prophet (pbuh).
I am to take your word for it, without proof?
Especially after what I am taught in Surah 4729-30?
Where is your proof?
On Judgment Day I will say to Allah Safa and Marwa are among Your signs, Allah, for when the visitor or pilgrim sees them, they know where the House is to sacrifice, according to the rites of devotion given to this medium nation.
He knows my heart. Allah is Seer, All Knowing.
You have not addressed the question nor refuted it "Surely the Safa and the Marwa are among the signs appointed by Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them both; and whoever does good spontaneously, then surely Allah is Grateful, Knowing." Surah 2158
As well, you say one is a smooth stone, and the other a fire. If this is the case, what are we to do with the stone? Sacrifice upon it?
What does Allah tell us about sacrificing upon stones?
"Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." Surah 53
Pray for guidance. Surah 245
Thank you for further confirming the proofs of pagan idolatry. You aid me in showing the hadith followers how their deen has been usurped by Babylonian Jews and Christians, and confirmed my own research.
Peace.
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peace raginggaijin, all,
Re 53
Can you provide evidence for your translation and implication of it being any stone set up? If/when you provide it, please also explain to us why the act of killing an animal on any stone surface irrespective of use is wrong, thanks.As a side note, there may or may not be significance to the subordinating conjunction of "wa-an" in-between the statements "and what is sacrificed on stones set up" AND "that you divide by the arrows".
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Well,
I've Read some of the Quran's Ayats on the Hajj, and the House (Shrine) and have been so far left with this Conclusion.- The BlackStone So far Is NOT found in the Quran
- The Foot Steps, and the Stoneing of the Devil are also So far NOT found in the Quran.
3)There is ALOT ALOT ALOT of Innovations in Islam that arent in the Quran.
So, with this being said, We Need to Establish a Common Understanding on what Hajj really is.
- Where is Hajjj (pilgrimage to the house that abraham and Ishmael built where he was to be sacrificed that is made to be to Meditate and Pray at while Praising Allah Alone?) -I so far believe it to be the Kabah in Mecca.
- What Do you Actually "DO" at Hajj once you get there?
-So far All I know of Is A) Pray/Meditate B) Feed the Poor and C) Make an Offereing ....as well as Entereing With your Head Shaven.
So is that Basically All Hajj is about? How about Circling it while Saying La-illaha Illala Wadahula Shareekalah.?
I Know Ayaman has said this Circling around it is Pegan, however Could Saying La-illahaillala^ then Nullify the pegan-ness? Since you are not attributing anyother name to Allah nor are you doing anything (Pegan)....I've heard that it represents the 7 universal Planes or Heavens Btw....So,Question for Ayman.
Ayman, have you done Hajj or plan on doing it? Meaning, in eather Mecca OR Jerusalam or Where ever you think it to be? do you plan on doing it?
What is the Official Quranist Hajj Proceedure? Is there any "Organized" Quranist understanding on what and where Hajj is so that Us Quranists can Actually "Do" it the "Right" way?I think it Deffinatly Is A real thing, and would like to know how to go about doing it.
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peace raginggaijin, all,
Re 53
Can you provide evidence for your translation and implication of it being any stone set up?Aside from every translator stating this? Sure thing.
"Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo innama alkhamru waalmaysiru waal-ansabu waal-azlamu rijsun min AAamali alshshaytani faijtaniboohu laAAallakum tuflihoona" Surah 590
They are not stones (hijarat). Surah 1054
They are not idols (sanam). Surah 674
"The day when they shall come forth in haste from the graves, as though to the altar herded." Surah 7043
"Yawma yakhrujoona mina al-ajdathi siraAAan kaannahum ila nusubin yoofidoona" Surah 7043If/when you provide it, please also explain to us why the act of killing an animal on any stone surface irrespective of use is wrong, thanks.
It is wrong because Allah says do not do it.
"The apostle believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His apostles; We make no difference between any of His apostles; and they say We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness, and to Thee is the eventual course." Surah 2285
As a side note, there may or may not be significance to the subordinating conjunction of "wa-an" in-between the statements "and what is sacrificed on stones set up" AND "that you divide by the arrows".
That's your choice, Wakas. No one is making you do it.
May Allah spare the believers from the chastisement of the Fire.
Peace.
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Peace raginggaijin,
Aside from every translator stating this? Sure thing.
Every translator does not say this, i.e. "stone set up". Most translators are more specific or clarify what they mean, e.g. see Asad's notes. To refute your claim of "every translator", see here http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/5/3/default.htm
"Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo innama alkhamru waalmaysiru waal-ansabu waal-azlamu rijsun min AAamali alshshaytani faijtaniboohu laAAallakum tuflihoona" Surah 590
They are not stones (hijarat). Surah 1054
They are not idols (sanam). Surah 674
"The day when they shall come forth in haste from the graves, as though to the altar herded." Surah 7043
"Yawma yakhrujoona mina al-ajdathi siraAAan kaannahum ila nusubin yoofidoona" Surah 7043Thanks for admitting they are not mere "stones". So, can we now assume you see a significant difference between "stones" and "stones set up"? Perhaps you too, like most translators, will have to clarify exactly what is meant, otherwise run the risk of sounding nonsensical.
And thanks for quoting 590 which shows that each thing listed is interactive/participatory, not merely an inert stone set up, giving further weight to my view, and most translators, that it is "altars" or "idolatrous altars".
It is wrong because Allah says do not do it.
It is clear you did not (and perhaps cannot?) provide an explanation, hence resort to the above statement. It seems you neglect the many verses which ask us to think/reflect/reason/etc. Which is it non-thinking-obedience or thinking-obedience?
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Peace raginggaijin,
It is clear you did not (and perhaps cannot?) provide an explanation, hence resort to the above statement. It seems you neglect the many verses which ask us to think/reflect/reason/etc. Which is it non-thinking-obedience or thinking-obedience?
Peace Wakas, All
in his signature, raginggaijin wrote " EXPLANATION IS NOT PROOF" ...I think that is why he doesn't bother to give us "PROOFS" without any "EXPLANATION" rotfl rotfl
salam
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Peace raginggaijin,
Every translator does not say this, i.e. "stone set up". Most translators are more specific or clarify what they mean, e.g. see Asad's notes. To refute your claim of "every translator", see here http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/5/3/default.htm
So what exactly are stones set up then, hmm? This is where Critical Thinking comes in Why would you set up stones?
Let us look at Quran translations, both available online and in my possession (translators in bold).
Pickthall "and that which hath been immolated unto idols."
Yusuf Ali "that which is sacrificed on stone"
Hulali-Khan "and that which is sacrificed (slaughtered) on AnNusub (stone altars)"
Shakir "and what is sacrificed on stones set up"
Sher Ali "and that which has been slaughtered at an altar as an offering to idols"
Arberry "as also things sacrificed to idols"
Palmer "and what is sacrificed to idols"
Rodwell "and that which hath been sacrificed on the blocks of stone"
Sale "and that which hath been sacrificed unto idols"
Maulana Ali "and that which is sacrificed on stones set up"
Bahktiar "and those slain to fetishes"
Dawood "also of animals sacrificed to idols"
Irving "and what has been slaughtered before some idol"
Qara'i "and what is sacrificed on stone altars"
Istanbul Translators Committee "and that which has been sacrificed to idols"
M.A.S. Abdul Haleem "or anything sacrificed on idolatrous altars"
Ahmed Ali "and that which has been slaughtered at altars is forbidden"
Zafrulla Khan "and that which has been slaughtered at an altar"
S.V. Mir Ahmed Ali "what is sacrificed on altar stones"All of them agree They are stones set up for sacrifices.
It's not rocket surgery.
Oh, are you saying I need to spell everything out to you? Is that the intent of this reply to me, Wakas?
Thanks for admitting they are not mere "stones". So, can we now assume you see a significant difference between "stones" and "stones set up"? Perhaps you too, like most translators, will have to clarify exactly what is meant, otherwise run the risk of sounding nonsensical.
Again you resort to Ad Hominem in an attempt to invalidate. Allah clearly says we are not to sacrifice on stones set up. What are stones set up for? Altars or idols. You name it, we have proof they were used as sacrifices in every Quran translation.
Is that clear enough for you, Wakas?
So according to the original intent of Ayman, if Safa is a smooth stone and Marwa is a fire, according to Ayman, what are their purposes? If they are used in a sacrificial rite, the Feast/Hajj, according to Ayman, what would you use the stone for? Sacrificing on the smooth stone, Wakas?
What is the fire for? Immolating the flesh of the sacrifice, Wakas?You want to go down this route, then let us go down this route.
Are you saying it is okay to sacrifice on altars? Yes or no.
Are you saying it is okay to sacrifice on stones? Yes or no.
Are you saying they are not altars? Yes or no.
Are you saying they are not sacrificial stones? Yes or no.You are agreeing with Ayman, am I correct? So what are you going to use your smooth stone and your fire for, Wakas? Show us in the Quran what these are used for in the shaAAa-iri Allahi, Wakas.
I stand by my original belief Safa and Marwa are small mountains partially enclosed within Masjid Al-Haram today. They are signs of Allah for the Hajj; beacons/waymarks that point the way to the House. The proofs are provided not only in the Quran but in the world today.
You have not brought proofs Safa and Marwa are not small mountains. Even Google Earth shows the topography.
You have not brought proofs Safa and Marwa were not around during the time of Muhammad (pbuh).
You have not brought proofs Safa and Marwa are man-made.
You have not brought proofs Safa and Marwa were named after the time of Muhammad (pbuh).You have only brought conjecture, Ad Hominem and Insults.
Please read Surah 4729-30.
Allah knows your heart and your intent. I am not responsible for you nor am I your guardian. To you are your works and to me are mine.
Allah tells us where to sacrifice the cattle/camels Surah 2233, 52, 595, 597
Allah says not to sacrifice on stones set up, be they altars or idols, so I will not do it. End of discussion on my end.
What you decide to do is entirely your choice. Choose wisely.
And thanks for quoting 590 which shows that each thing listed is interactive/participatory, not merely an inert stone set up, giving further weight to my view, and most translators, that it is "altars" or "idolatrous altars".
So you are okay with the construction of obelisks? Am I understanding you correctly?
It is clear you did not (and perhaps cannot?) provide an explanation, hence resort to the above statement. It seems you neglect the many verses which ask us to think/reflect/reason/etc. Which is it non-thinking-obedience or thinking-obedience?
Again, Ad Hominem and Insults. Again, it's not rocket surgery.
I have proven I have not only thought this out, but explored all the options available to me by our Creator. All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
One bit of advice I think you should be less concerned about what I am doing, and more concerned about what you are doing.
May Allah protect the believers from the whispers of the accursed satans.
May Allah pour down patience from Most High upon the believers.
May Allah grant the believers a goodly provision in this life and in the Hereafter, and save us from the chastisement of the Fire.
May Allah not make the believers a trial for the unjust.Peace.
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Peace raginggaijin,
I will try and stay on point, and ignore your superfluous commentary.
You first say it is "stones set up", then say "stones set up for sacrifices". The latter is more specific than the former.
Oh, are you saying I need to spell everything out to you? Is that the intent of this reply to me, Wakas?
I prefer accuracy, hence my requests of you.
Allah clearly says we are not to sacrifice on stones set up.
Unfortunately for you, the Arabic says otherwise. Let me make it clear for you what 53 says, the animals/food forbidden to us are
wama thubiha AAala al nnusubi
and what slaughtered/sacrificed on the altars / idolatrous altarsPay attention to the word in bold. Further, the verb "thubiha" is in the passive perfect, meaning an action done/completed, and the subject (i.e. animal) received the action expressed in the verb.
Thus, your above statement is refuted 100%.
So you are okay with the construction of obelisks? Am I understanding you correctly?
If the obelisk is set up to be worshipped or as a symbol for idolatry, then no, I am not ok with that, and neither is AQ. I am not against stones being set up per se, and neither is AQ, e.g. this is common practice in construction/buildings, and I am not against houses/buildings, I dont know about you.
I have proven I have not only thought this out, but explored all the options available to me by our Creator.
I recommend re-exploring then. ;D
And by the way, I believe the saying is "rocket science" not "rocket surgery".
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Peace raginggaijin,
I will try and stay on point, and ignore your superfluous commentary.
You first say it is "stones set up", then say "stones set up for sacrifices". The latter is more specific than the former.
So are you following what I say or are you following what the Quran says? I have given proofs from the Quran, have you not checked them?
I prefer accuracy, hence my requests of you.
I've said it once, I'll say it again. I am not a guide, nor am I responsible for you. Study the Quran diligently, and be not dependent on my opinion.
Allah says not to sacrifice on stones set up, be they altars or idols. I stand behind the revelation of Allah, the word of the Prophet, the Quran. I will not do it.
Unfortunately for you, the Arabic says otherwise. Let me make it clear for you what 53 says, the animals/food forbidden to us are
wama thubiha AAala al nnusubi
and what slaughtered/sacrificed on the altars / idolatrous altarsPay attention to the word in bold. Further, the verb "thubiha" is in the passive perfect, meaning an action done/completed, and the subject (i.e. animal) received the action expressed in the verb.
Thus, your above statement is refuted 100%.
How so? What are you striving to sacrifice upon the altar? As said at the beginning
They are not stones (hijarat). Surah 1054
They are not idols (sanam). Surah 674
"The day when they shall come forth in haste from the graves, as though to the altar herded." Surah 7043
"Yawma yakhrujoona mina al-ajdathi siraAAan kaannahum ila nusubin yoofidoona" Surah 7043Again, Allah says not to do it in Surah 53. Period. If you choose to sacrifice animals on stones set up, and rationalize it away, that is your choice. No one is making you do it.
And what does Allah tell us to do with the sacrifices of Hajj? We are to "eat of them and feed the poor man who is contented and the beggar" Surah 2236
So we are to eat of this food, the camels, a sign of Allah and His bounty for men.
Are we supposed to eat animals sacrificed on altars/idols/stones set up? No.
So back to your Safa is a stone, Marwa is a fire theory What do you do with the stone, Wakas? Do you sacrifice upon it, like an altar? If you do, you are not allowed to eat the meat as per Surah 53.
So what again is refuted, Wakas?
You confirmed what I said. Thank you.
If the obelisk is set up to be worshipped or as a symbol for idolatry, then no, I am not ok with that, and neither is AQ. I am not against stones being set up per se, and neither is AQ, e.g. this is common practice in construction/buildings, and I am not against houses/buildings, I dont know about you.
Thank you for your admission. The Truth has come and that which is hidden has become manifest.
Allah knows your heart and your thoughts. You know this is not about building a house, as the word for stone is different.
As you strive to make a play on words, making a mockery of the revelation of Allah to follow your Free Will, that is on you. I am clear of what you do.May Allah protect the believers from the whispers of the satans.
And by the way, I believe the saying is "rocket science" not "rocket surgery".
Your ignorance is showing.
Rocket Surgery
n. a task requiring intelligence or higher education; a difficult undertaking; a play on words which mixes two common metaphors "rocket science" and "brain surgery" Subjects English
Editorial Note Often used jocularly in negative constructions similar to ?It?s not rocket surgery.? Etymological Note A blend of rocket science and brain surgery.http//media.threadless.com/subs/big/46364.gif
Enjoy the update on your vernacular. Next time Google is your friend.
http//tinyurl.com/yly7p2s
"The life of this world is made to seem fair to those who disbelieve, and they mock those who believe, and those who guard shall be above them on the day of resurrection; and Allah gives means of subsistence to whom he pleases without measure." Surah 2212
"O you who believe! let not people laugh at people perchance they may be better than they, nor let women at women, perchance they may be better than they; and do not find fault with your own people nor call one another by nicknames; evil is a bad name after faith, and whoever does not turn, these it is that are the unjust." Surah 4911
"But you took them for a mockery until they made you forget My remembrance and you used to laugh at them." Surah 23110
Since you insist on playing word games, I am done with you, Wakas.
"And when you see those who enter into false discourses about Our communications, withdraw from them until they enter into some other discourse, and if the Shaitan causes you to forget, then do not sit after recollection with the unjust people." Surah 668
To you are your deeds, and to me are mine. I am not responsible for you, nor am I a guardian.
May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.
May Allah increase the unjust in naught but destruction.
May Allah curse the liars.
May Allah continue to guide us to the Truth.Peace.
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Rocket Surgery
n. a task requiring intelligence or higher education; a difficult undertaking; a play on words which mixes two common metaphors "rocket science" and "brain surgery" Subjects English
Editorial Note Often used jocularly in negative constructions similar to ?It?s not rocket surgery.? Etymological Note A blend of rocket science and brain surgery.bravo rotfl laugh x5
Now Now, everyone.....Lets Not Get too Personal... I enjoyed the Comic Relief from Both Wakas and Raginggaijin
Right now, I am dumbfounded....I just dont understand....
1)Why would Prophet Muhammad Stay in Saudi Arabia instead of Jerusalem (Modernday Israel)?
-Wouldnt it make more sense for Him to live in Jeruslaem if THAT is where the True Qibla/House is?
- Also, why would these Sunnipengan distorters Intentionally Name two mountains in Mecca (Safa and Marwa) in an effort to INTENTIONALLY Delude Quran-followers(Muslims) into performing a FALSE Hajj? Also, Why would the "Muslims" RULE from Mecca and Medina instead of Rule from Jerusalem?
These are questions that confuse me. Why wouldnt the Muslims "Headcouters" be in Jerusalem in stead of Saudi Arabia?
Many people try to answer this by saying that the Meccan's wanted Political Power?So they waited till Muhammad Died to infultrate, Distort and then Rule from Mecca? ???
Why wouldnt Muhammad Rule from Jeruslaem?-like the other prophets?And HAS ANYONE DONE HAJJ IN JERUSALEM? ANYONE AT ALL? or IS ther anyone you have heard about doing it in this day in age?
