Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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Salaam Samia,
Now you made muhsanaat rich women! Why is it "who has no means" means who has no money? Do the poor stop getting married? The qur'aan is not much concerned about how much wealth you have when it comes to commands and guidance. It does not even say only the rich should give charity or the poor should not pay "blood money/ fidiya". So " " Who is unable to marry the "muhsanaat" , and not (who has not the financial means)
Point was that marrying the already married contradicts.
425
In addition, wealth is a matter of degree, standard of living and livelihoods vary depending on individuals, location, expected life styles, some women are frugal, others accustomed to levels of comfort, want to stay home not work, etc.
It's the same with those who do not have the wherewithal/means to free a neck should fast/feed the poor
584
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Salaam Eid
Now you made muhsanaat rich women! Why is it "who has no means" means who has no money? Do the poor stop getting married? The qur'aan is not much concerned about how much wealth you have when it comes to commands and guidance. It does not even say only the rich should give charity or the poor should not pay "blood money/ fidiya". So " " Who is unable to marry the "muhsanaat" , and not (who has not the financial means)
I think i had explained this,
In addition to eid's arguments, one must understand, It is not about the Mohsinnate being rich , but you being poor, and hence the ayat is about recommending a cheaper alternate in the shape of a Maiden Believing Mohsinate among Ma Malakat category, because she will be more than happy to upgrade herself with a much less ajar.
And you must note that this recommendation is for,
1, she should be Mohsinna, (Not fahisha, zania, mushriqa from Ma Malakat category)
2. she should be a Mominna (Not an otul kitab among Ma Malakat category)
3. And among Ma Malakat, a fatayat (young maiden) should be your first choice.peace
siki
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In fact I was not ridiculing student, I laughed at the way he understood my question. It has nothing to do with the discussion being for adults only. What I meant is that the older the men the nearer their expiry date, though it does not apply to all, but to a good percentage. Besides, primary impotence, secondary impotence or malformations are more than you can imagine. Not to mention the gay who cannot marry "fully" the opposite sex nor are allowed to marry into their own sex. Just because people do not talk does not mean that a good portion of the population are not suffering in silence.
And you say sexless marriage is none sense or does not/cannot exist?
What do the doctors on this forum think?To start with, you invented a senseless conjuncture, and to top it up, you are trying to defend it by posting the quoted silly justifications. If one goes by your criteria, then all marriages should be classified as sexless.
How could you come up with "relation with MMA as sexless" with absolutely No evidence from Quran, specially when we have just the opposite proves from quran in the shape of 70-29.30
I don't think I needed to pen down the following explanation , specially for a sensible , mature woman like you , but alas I have to go through this agony.
The basic spirit behind the contract known as Marriage is putting a Man and woman together for reproduction, which can not be achieved without sexual intercourse.
Any contract which prohibits a sexual liaison between them as a pre condition could be called any thing , but a marriage.siki
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The accusation itself is not zina, but the accusation is about zina, is it not? Why would the context be about one thing and the accusation about another?
No, accusation is not of zina, but of committing fornication, which when proven , becomes zina. And if not proven (less than 4 witnesses) would remain an accusation, and that is precisely being discouraged with dire consequences of 80 lashes.
siki
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But where is that verse that requires 4 witnesses for az-zina to take place, the verse that defines az-zina as public sex, the verse that mentions "zina" and "four witnesses" together?
The 'Zee word' has not been used anywhere in the Quran with "four witnesses".
I would agree with you here, there is no direct verse stating so, We have deduced this by interpolating different verses on the subject, and this deduction is not 100% but is most likely, we do need to work and fill up this gap. But so far, any other explanation, specially yours, is no where close, and till the time we come up with such deductions, which improve upon the %tage , I would stick with the Most likely scenario.
siki
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I think i had explained this,
In addition to eid's arguments, one must understand, It is not about the Mohsinnate being rich , but you being poor, and hence the ayat is about recommending a cheaper alternate in the shape of a Maiden Believing Mohsinate among Ma Malakat category, because she will be more than happy to upgrade herself with a much less ajar.
And you must note that this recommendation is for,
1, she should be Mohsinna, (Not fahisha, zania, mushriqa from Ma Malakat category)
2. she should be a Mominna (Not an otul kitab among Ma Malakat category)
3. And among Ma Malakat, a fatayat (young maiden) should be your first choice.peace
siki
Lucky poor man! A young virgin and chaste maiden is grateful that a poor man is upgrading her! What if she was aware of her assets and wanted to be upgraded by a rich man? And why doesn't this poor man marry an old widow/divorcee/spinster?
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To start with, you invented a senseless conjuncture, and to top it up, you are trying to defend it by posting the quoted silly justifications. If one goes by your criteria, then all marriages should be classified as sexless.
How could you come up with "relation with MMA as sexless" with absolutely No evidence from Quran, specially when we have just the opposite proves from quran in the shape of 70-29.30
I don't think I needed to pen down the following explanation , specially for a sensible , mature woman like you , but alas I have to go through this agony.
The basic spirit behind the contract known as Marriage is putting a Man and woman together for reproduction, which can not be achieved without sexual intercourse.
Any contract which prohibits a sexual liaison between them as a pre condition could be called any thing , but a marriage.siki
What justification? Do you or don't you believe that these categories of people exist and are not ignored by quraan, even if they are ignored by the society? And if you really believe that I am a sensible, mature person (Oh, thanks!), why haste at atcking me and judging my thoughts before I fully explain them? And where did you get that marriage is for reproduction? Then those ctegories I spoke of should not get married? What would they do? The quraan spoke about "skeenacalmnees/ no more worries" and "labaa unity" between couples, never about reproduction. Get rid of your preconceptions when you read the quraan.
Starting with verse 422-23 the quraan is telling us whom we should not marry. Then in 424 it continues with and the muhsanat except MMA. Can you replace muhsanaat with chaste women here? Can you replace it with "married women"? Do we really need a verse to tell us not to marry married women but we can marry married women f they are "married" to their owners? None of this sound sensible, if you know what sensible is.
My understanding is that the address in verse 424 is shifted from the general public to the special category of those unable to have sex. It is shifting from the marriage that has sex in it to sexless marriage. This is for two reasons
1- this is the only time where God instructs us to consult the family in this matter, because when one of this category wants to marry (someone who may not belong to this categor, i.e a muhsan) the family of the muhsan, and their family, should be aware of that. They will be milku yameen each other. That's why the verse says (prohibited are the muhsans except what you possess by oath).
2- Those muhsans who are married to someone of this category will have their punishment halved if they commit fornication. Have you asked yourself why is that? Has God decreased any punishment for the poor, for example, when they steal, or for the slaves in any other context?My approach is to eliminate unsensible interpretations, and interpretation that are not applicable to all the situations mentioned in the quraan. Understanding muhsanat as chaste or maried women leaves us with many contradictions and un-unsewrable questions, such as how to define a chaste person without falling into the trap of slander; or where to get a slave. Also why a female MMA, and what about male MMA.
Please calm down, and try to honestly understand. This is not a "pointless" or "sensless" theory until you prove it is so, without societal preconceptions and brainwash.
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Salaam Eid, siki
Marry those among you who are single, or the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace for Allah encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things.
In the above verse (2432) God is speaking explicitly of being poor.
in verse 4 25 has nothing to do with being poor, besides it's only pointing to marrying muhsanaat. Moreover, the verse command those marrying MMA to pay them their "ajr". What else is required, according to the quraan that's not mentioned in this kind of "milku yameen" marriage?
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Lucky poor man! A young virgin and chaste maiden is grateful that a poor man is upgrading her! What if she was aware of her assets and wanted to be upgraded by a rich man? And why doesn't this poor man marry an old widow/divorcee/spinster?
No where in quran it is prohibited that he cant marry a widow/divorcee or a spinster, It is just, that another option has been suggested , which may not be in practice those days and also, if he is considering this option , then what sub category he should precisely target.
Moreover kindly restrict your input strictly on the understanding of 4-25, there is no use conjecturing and spilling out your emotional grievances against a gender biased commandment, for that you can confront him on JD.
siki
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No where in quran it is prohibited that he cant marry a widow/divorcee or a spinster, It is just, that another option has been suggested , which may not be in practice those days and also, if he is considering this option , then what sub category he should precisely target.
sikiThat was in response to your understanding, and is not an expression of my understanding
1, she should be Mohsinna, (Not fahisha, zania, mushriqa from Ma Malakat category)
2. she should be a Mominna (Not an otul kitab among Ma Malakat category)
3. And among Ma Malakat, a fatayat (young maiden) should be your first choice.Actually you are the one conjecturing that MMA should be so and so...
No where in quran it is prohibited that he cant marry a widow/divorcee or a spinster, It is just, that another option has been suggested ,
Moreover kindly restrict your input strictly on the understanding of 4-25, there is no use conjecturing and spilling out your emotional grievances against a gender biased commandment, for that you can confront him on JD.siki
Why should I restrict my understanding to only one verse? Is this because you could not respond to the other verses that contradict your, and the general understanding?
And who "gender biased"? I did not say MMA are only young females.
And why all the anger? Please grow up and learn how to debate, instead of analysing my "emotional grievance". -
Salaam Eid, siki
Marry those among you who are single, or the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace for Allah encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things.
In the above verse (2432) God is speaking explicitly of being poor.
I am in no way denying 24-32, and am in complete agreement with you on its undestanding, but what does it have to do with 4-25? 4-25 is completely a different subject, where as 4-32 is an advise that one should not stall/pospone/delay marrige of dependents just because one thinks that you or they may not be able to afford the increased living cost which would come along due marrying, Allah is promising that He is likely to look after that.
siki
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Salaam Eid, siki
in verse 4 25 has nothing to do with being poor, besides it's only pointing to marrying muhsanaat.
Who is saying that the above aya is about being poor only. "Istataat" covers many aspects out of which having less money is one of the factors.
siki
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Salaam Eid, siki
Moreover, the verse command those marrying MMA to pay them their "ajr". What else is required, according to the quraan that's not mentioned in this kind of "milku yameen" marriage?
This is not a milk ul yameen marriage, and i have no idea what that is, I don't think any such word in this context has been used in quran and subsequently by me.
It is a normal marriage, for which ajar has to be paid, rather this aya is emphasising that as this marriage is like any other Nikah, so don't take her for granted, and must pay and full fill all obligations as per normal marriage, the only difference being that it is likely to be much less burdensome and hence affordable. And most important, God probably wanted to provide an opportunity to this category as a way out of being a Ma Malakat Emnakum.
siki
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That was in response to your understanding, and is not an expression of my understanding
Actually you are the one conjecturing that MMA should be so and so...
I challenge you to open up a new thread, and i will prove it to you that i am not conjecturing , I will prove every single word that i wrote, from Quran. Yours, and for every body's reference, i am re-qouting that so called conjecture down below.
1, she should be Mohsinna, (Not fahisha, zania, mushriqa from Ma Malakat category)
2. she should be a Mominna (Not an otul kitab among Ma Malakat category)
3. And among Ma Malakat, a fatayat (young maiden) should be your first choice.siki
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I am in no way denying 24-32, and am in complete agreement with you on its undestanding, but what does it have to do with 4-25? 4-25 is completely a different subject, where as 4-32 is an advise that one should not stall/pospone/delay marrige of dependents just because one thinks that you or they may not be able to afford the increased living cost which would come along due marrying, Allah is promising that He is likely to look after that.
siki
I was pointing at the understanding that is (if you do not have the financial means) and explained that in the same context of marriage, being poor is explicitly mentioned. It's a complete expression, not just a verb " is able to".
I know this is "normal" marrigae, and that's exactly my point. So why would we be told in another verse that if we do not have "the financial means" to the "normal" marriage indicated in 2432, then go for MMA? I did not mention you alone in this response, but Eid as well. You both have this understanding of (not having financial means/ bot paying ajr to MMA).
Where is this "dependants" in this vese?
This is not a milk ul yameen marriage, and i have no idea what that is, I don't think any such word in this context has been used in quran and subsequently by me.
It is a normal marriage, for which ajr has to be paid, rather this aya is emphasising that as this marriage is like any other Nikah, so don't take her for granted, and must pay and full fill all obligations as per normal marriage, the only difference being that it is likely to be much less burdensome and hence affordable. And most important, God probably wanted to provide an opportunity to this category as a way out of being a Ma Malakat Emnakum.
siki
The milku yameen marriage also requires ajr to be paid.
Actually this verse does not even mention "ajr"!
Where did you get this (likely to be much less burdensome)? How do you know God's intentions to provide an opportunity as a way out of being MMA? Why is MMA so bad that God wants for them a "way out"?NB " milku yameen marriage" is just an easy way instead of saying marriage in which some one is marrying MMA. The other is "marriage" instead of saying "normal marriage" as if the milku yameen one is an "abnormal" marriage. Literally it means "marriage by oath possession". A linguistic variation, no change of meaning.
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Why should I restrict my understanding to only one verse? Is this because you could not respond to the other verses that contradict your, and the general understanding?
The verse you quoted does not , i repeat, "does not" contradict my understanding in anyway, it is you , who just can't come to terms with the commandment in verse 4-25, and is ready to give it any twist , but to accept a straight forward understanding.
siki
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And why all the anger? Please grow up and learn how to debate, instead of analysing my "emotional grievance".
I will take that advise of yours, but honestly it really upsets me when i find an experienced MOD like you, consistently go bonkers on Gender bias issues, just because she her self belongs to that category, Which in my opinion is not a bias at all , It is just what God thinks is more suitable for some one he created differently for a specific purpose.
siki
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I challenge you to open up a new thread, and i will prove it to you that i am not conjecturing , I will prove every single word that i wrote, from Quran. Yours, and for every body's reference, i am re-qouting that so called conjecture down below.
1, she should be Mohsinna, (Not fahisha, zania, mushriqa from Ma Malakat category)
2. she should be a Mominna (Not an otul kitab among Ma Malakat category)
3. And among Ma Malakat, a fatayat (young maiden) should be your first choice.siki
Any one may open this thread. No need to challenge me. It's not that hard task to start a thread, although I rarely do (out of laziness). But please get rid of the spirit of "challenge" and into the spirit of debate.
I will take that advise of yours, but honestly it really upsets me when i find an experienced MOD like you, consistently go bonkers on Gender bias issues, just because she her self belongs to that category, Which in my opinion is not a bias at all , It is just what God thinks is more suitable for some one he created differently for a specific purpose.
siki
I do not know why you keep mentioning this "gender bias" by me! It seems that you do not understand what I am talking about. Is it because I say MMA are not only females? Well, it's not me. It's from the quraan. Just search for "maa malakat aymanuhunna". And who says that the category I mentioned contains only males? Gays are only males? congenital deformity touches males only? There's even female "impotence", medically called "frigidity".