Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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Salaam Eid, siki
Moreover, the verse command those marrying MMA to pay them their "ajr". What else is required, according to the quraan that's not mentioned in this kind of "milku yameen" marriage?
This is not a milk ul yameen marriage, and i have no idea what that is, I don't think any such word in this context has been used in quran and subsequently by me.
It is a normal marriage, for which ajar has to be paid, rather this aya is emphasising that as this marriage is like any other Nikah, so don't take her for granted, and must pay and full fill all obligations as per normal marriage, the only difference being that it is likely to be much less burdensome and hence affordable. And most important, God probably wanted to provide an opportunity to this category as a way out of being a Ma Malakat Emnakum.
siki
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That was in response to your understanding, and is not an expression of my understanding
Actually you are the one conjecturing that MMA should be so and so...
I challenge you to open up a new thread, and i will prove it to you that i am not conjecturing , I will prove every single word that i wrote, from Quran. Yours, and for every body's reference, i am re-qouting that so called conjecture down below.
1, she should be Mohsinna, (Not fahisha, zania, mushriqa from Ma Malakat category)
2. she should be a Mominna (Not an otul kitab among Ma Malakat category)
3. And among Ma Malakat, a fatayat (young maiden) should be your first choice.siki
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I am in no way denying 24-32, and am in complete agreement with you on its undestanding, but what does it have to do with 4-25? 4-25 is completely a different subject, where as 4-32 is an advise that one should not stall/pospone/delay marrige of dependents just because one thinks that you or they may not be able to afford the increased living cost which would come along due marrying, Allah is promising that He is likely to look after that.
siki
I was pointing at the understanding that is (if you do not have the financial means) and explained that in the same context of marriage, being poor is explicitly mentioned. It's a complete expression, not just a verb " is able to".
I know this is "normal" marrigae, and that's exactly my point. So why would we be told in another verse that if we do not have "the financial means" to the "normal" marriage indicated in 2432, then go for MMA? I did not mention you alone in this response, but Eid as well. You both have this understanding of (not having financial means/ bot paying ajr to MMA).
Where is this "dependants" in this vese?
This is not a milk ul yameen marriage, and i have no idea what that is, I don't think any such word in this context has been used in quran and subsequently by me.
It is a normal marriage, for which ajr has to be paid, rather this aya is emphasising that as this marriage is like any other Nikah, so don't take her for granted, and must pay and full fill all obligations as per normal marriage, the only difference being that it is likely to be much less burdensome and hence affordable. And most important, God probably wanted to provide an opportunity to this category as a way out of being a Ma Malakat Emnakum.
siki
The milku yameen marriage also requires ajr to be paid.
Actually this verse does not even mention "ajr"!
Where did you get this (likely to be much less burdensome)? How do you know God's intentions to provide an opportunity as a way out of being MMA? Why is MMA so bad that God wants for them a "way out"?NB " milku yameen marriage" is just an easy way instead of saying marriage in which some one is marrying MMA. The other is "marriage" instead of saying "normal marriage" as if the milku yameen one is an "abnormal" marriage. Literally it means "marriage by oath possession". A linguistic variation, no change of meaning.
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Why should I restrict my understanding to only one verse? Is this because you could not respond to the other verses that contradict your, and the general understanding?
The verse you quoted does not , i repeat, "does not" contradict my understanding in anyway, it is you , who just can't come to terms with the commandment in verse 4-25, and is ready to give it any twist , but to accept a straight forward understanding.
siki
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And why all the anger? Please grow up and learn how to debate, instead of analysing my "emotional grievance".
I will take that advise of yours, but honestly it really upsets me when i find an experienced MOD like you, consistently go bonkers on Gender bias issues, just because she her self belongs to that category, Which in my opinion is not a bias at all , It is just what God thinks is more suitable for some one he created differently for a specific purpose.
siki
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I challenge you to open up a new thread, and i will prove it to you that i am not conjecturing , I will prove every single word that i wrote, from Quran. Yours, and for every body's reference, i am re-qouting that so called conjecture down below.
1, she should be Mohsinna, (Not fahisha, zania, mushriqa from Ma Malakat category)
2. she should be a Mominna (Not an otul kitab among Ma Malakat category)
3. And among Ma Malakat, a fatayat (young maiden) should be your first choice.siki
Any one may open this thread. No need to challenge me. It's not that hard task to start a thread, although I rarely do (out of laziness). But please get rid of the spirit of "challenge" and into the spirit of debate.
I will take that advise of yours, but honestly it really upsets me when i find an experienced MOD like you, consistently go bonkers on Gender bias issues, just because she her self belongs to that category, Which in my opinion is not a bias at all , It is just what God thinks is more suitable for some one he created differently for a specific purpose.
siki
I do not know why you keep mentioning this "gender bias" by me! It seems that you do not understand what I am talking about. Is it because I say MMA are not only females? Well, it's not me. It's from the quraan. Just search for "maa malakat aymanuhunna". And who says that the category I mentioned contains only males? Gays are only males? congenital deformity touches males only? There's even female "impotence", medically called "frigidity".
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I have been trying for a long time to convey this to all my sisters on this forum,
What you so often forget is that God has honored the woman by giving her value in relation to God not in relation to men. But as western feminism erases God from the scene, there are no standard left but men. As a result the western feminist is forced to find her value in relation to a man. And in so doing you have accepted a faulty assumption. You have accepted that man is the standard, and thus a woman can never be a full human being until she becomes just like a man.
Only a woman can be a mother. And God has given special privilege to a mother. So why is that not unfair? And yet even when God honors you with something uniquely feminine, you are too busy trying to find your worth in reference to men, to value it-or even notice, and have accepted men as the standard; so anything uniquely feminine is, by definition, inferior, being sensitive is an insult, becoming a mother-a degradation.
In fact, in your effort to follow men, you, as women, never even stopped to examine the possibility that what you have is better for you. In some cases you even gave up what was higher, only to be like men.
Given your privilege as a woman, you only degrade yourself by trying to be something you are not. As women, you will never reach true liberation until you stop trying to mimic men, and value the beauty in your own God-given distinctiveness.
peace
siki
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Any one may open this thread. No need to challenge me. It's not that hard task to start a thread, although I rarely do (out of laziness). But please get rid of the spirit of "challenge" and into the spirit of debate.
When you throw in an accusation which you know very well is wrong , How do you want me to react?
OK , prove it to me that what i said was a conjecture? And if you cant, please ponder over your role as a Moderator.
siki
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What justification? Do you or don't you believe that these categories of people exist and are not ignored by quraan, even if they are ignored by the society? And if you really believe that I am a sensible, mature person (Oh, thanks!), why haste at atcking me and judging my thoughts before I fully explain them? And where did you get that marriage is for reproduction? Then those ctegories I spoke of should not get married? What would they do? The quraan spoke about "skeenacalmnees/ no more worries" and "labaa unity" between couples, never about reproduction. Get rid of your preconceptions when you read the quraan.
Starting with verse 422-23 the quraan is telling us whom we should not marry. Then in 424 it continues with and the muhsanat except MMA. Can you replace muhsanaat with chaste women here? Can you replace it with "married women"? Do we really need a verse to tell us not to marry married women but we can marry married women f they are "married" to their owners? None of this sound sensible, if you know what sensible is.
My understanding is that the address in verse 424 is shifted from the general public to the special category of those unable to have sex. It is shifting from the marriage that has sex in it to sexless marriage. This is for two reasons
1- this is the only time where God instructs us to consult the family in this matter, because when one of this category wants to marry (someone who may not belong to this categor, i.e a muhsan) the family of the muhsan, and their family, should be aware of that. They will be milku yameen each other. That's why the verse says (prohibited are the muhsans except what you possess by oath).
2- Those muhsans who are married to someone of this category will have their punishment halved if they commit fornication. Have you asked yourself why is that? Has God decreased any punishment for the poor, for example, when they steal, or for the slaves in any other context?My approach is to eliminate unsensible interpretations, and interpretation that are not applicable to all the situations mentioned in the quraan. Understanding muhsanat as chaste or maried women leaves us with many contradictions and un-unsewrable questions, such as how to define a chaste person without falling into the trap of slander; or where to get a slave. Also why a female MMA, and what about male MMA.
Please calm down, and try to honestly understand. This is not a "pointless" or "sensless" theory until you prove it is so, without societal preconceptions and brainwash.
Samia
salam
How about you opening a thread titling your understanding of the word Ma Malakat emnakum? which probably you understand as the people who are disabled to have sex? For sure I would help you there in getting rid off this erroneous understanding.
siki
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583-4 But those who divorce their wives by Zihar, then wish to go back on the words they uttered, (it is ordained that such a one) should free a slave before they touch each other this are ye admonished to perform and Allah is well acquainted with (all) that ye do. And if any has not (the wherewithal), he should fast for two months consecutively before they touch each other. But if any is unable to do so, he should feed sixty indigent ones. This, that ye may show your Faith in Allah and His Messenger, those are limits (set by) Allah. For those who reject (Him), there is a grievous Penalty.
The terms (man lam yajid) and (man lam yastati3) are both used in Verses 583 and 584 and their meanings are clearly demonstrated in these verses.
( ) = who has not the wherewithal (financial means) To free a slave you need money
( ) = who is unable (physical power) To fast you need physical power.( ) any of you who is physically not able to marry muhsanat.
(muhsan = one who is sexually immune, or sexually has no defects)
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The terms (man lam yajid) and (man lam yastati3) are both used in Verses 583 and 584 and their meanings are clearly demonstrated in these verses.
( ْ = who has not the wherewithal (financial means) To free a slave you need money
( ْ = who is unable (physical power) To fast you need physical power.( ِ any of you who is physically not able to marry muhsanat.
(muhsan = one who is sexually immune, or sexually has no defects)
Thank you Tlepsh
At last someone I agree with !! -
583-4 But those who divorce their wives by Zihar, then wish to go back on the words they uttered, (it is ordained that such a one) should free a slave before they touch each other this are ye admonished to perform and Allah is well acquainted with (all) that ye do. And if any has not (the wherewithal), he should fast for two months consecutively before they touch each other. But if any is unable to do so, he should feed sixty indigent ones. This, that ye may show your Faith in Allah and His Messenger, those are limits (set by) Allah. For those who reject (Him), there is a grievous Penalty.
The terms (man lam yajid) and (man lam yastati3) are both used in Verses 583 and 584 and their meanings are clearly demonstrated in these verses.
( ) = who has not the wherewithal (financial means) To free a slave you need money
( ) = who is unable (physical power) To fast you need physical power.( ) any of you who is physically not able to marry muhsanat.
Brother ! you are wrong in your assumption, let me explain it to you
Istataat, The precise meaning of this word is , To be able to, and how some one is able to, (or not able to) will be determined by the context and the subject in discussion. Generally , when this word is used instead of a precise reasoning , it is meant to cover multiple aspects along with the basic reason, or is used when you don't want to unveil your specific reason.
The aya example you quoted , is correct , basic reason in fasting context could be physical strength, but it does cover other reasons too, like sickness,or could be due to certain kind of a job/routine etc, there are quite a many usages of this word in quran, and every time the context of the verse is determining the primary reason , and i am afraid that majority of these usages do not convey the physical strength aspect.
Precise meaning of the word yajid is , FIND , and you have wrongly locked the meaning to "financially afford, The literal meaning of this word in 58-3 is , "If you do not find a slave to free,,,,,"
(muhsan = one who is sexually immune, or sexually has no defects)
can you kindly aprise me , as to how did you discover the above meaning of the term "Muhsan"
siki
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What justification? Do you or don't you believe that these categories of people exist and are not ignored by quraan, even if they are ignored by the society? And if you really believe that I am a sensible, mature person (Oh, thanks!), why haste at atcking me and judging my thoughts before I fully explain them? And where did you get that marriage is for reproduction? Then those ctegories I spoke of should not get married? What would they do? The quraan spoke about "skeenacalmnees/ no more worries" and "labaa unity" between couples, never about reproduction. Get rid of your preconceptions when you read the quraan.
Starting with verse 422-23 the quraan is telling us whom we should not marry. Then in 424 it continues with and the muhsanat except MMA. Can you replace muhsanaat with chaste women here? Can you replace it with "married women"? Do we really need a verse to tell us not to marry married women but we can marry married women f they are "married" to their owners? None of this sound sensible, if you know what sensible is.
My understanding is that the address in verse 424 is shifted from the general public to the special category of those unable to have sex. It is shifting from the marriage that has sex in it to sexless marriage. This is for two reasons
1- this is the only time where God instructs us to consult the family in this matter, because when one of this category wants to marry (someone who may not belong to this categor, i.e a muhsan) the family of the muhsan, and their family, should be aware of that. They will be milku yameen each other. That's why the verse says (prohibited are the muhsans except what you possess by oath).
2- Those muhsans who are married to someone of this category will have their punishment halved if they commit fornication. Have you asked yourself why is that? Has God decreased any punishment for the poor, for example, when they steal, or for the slaves in any other context?My approach is to eliminate unsensible interpretations, and interpretation that are not applicable to all the situations mentioned in the quraan. Understanding muhsanat as chaste or maried women leaves us with many contradictions and un-unsewrable questions, such as how to define a chaste person without falling into the trap of slander; or where to get a slave. Also why a female MMA, and what about male MMA.
Please calm down, and try to honestly understand. This is not a "pointless" or "sensless" theory until you prove it is so, without societal preconceptions and brainwash.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us, thats The Best understanding on this issue i've ever come up with.
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Dear Samia
If reproduction is not the purpose of marriage then what is meant by this verse ?Why the women have been called as "harth" ?
RegardsSalaam student!
It's not limited to it.
This is why I believe the quraan is accommodating those who cannot have reproduction. -
Salaam student!
It's not limited to it.
This is why I believe the quraan is accommodating those who cannot have reproduction.Dear Samia
The word "Harth " shows that reproduction is the primary purpose of marriage.
If one is physically impotent ,then he has no right to spoil the life of any woman by getting married to her thus block all of her chances to
1be psychological satisfied
2have children
3get married to another medically normal person.I personally feel it will be an explicit crime on the part of the man if he does so intentionally.
Regards -
Istataat, The precise meaning of this word is , To be able to, and how some one is able to, (or not able to) will be determined by the context and the subject in discussion. Generally , when this word is used instead of a precise reasoning , it is meant to cover multiple aspects along with the basic reason, or is used when you don't want to unveil your specific reason.
When the sole purpose of marriage is reproduction then we have to agree with Tlepsh "( ِ any of you who is physically not able to marry muhsanat".
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When the sole purpose of marriage is reproduction then we have to agree with Tlepsh "( ِ any of you who is physically not able to marry muhsanat".
Dear Brother
What you are ignoring the word persistantly is word " " which
-finacially sufficient state
-easiness
-favor ,grace ,kindeness (fazl)- ( 2 / 45)
) )
This word " " clearly describe the nature of inability.
Regards - ( 2 / 45)