Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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Peace Nyma,
-4 months since the proposer and the individual who is being proposed to is without a partner (2226)
2226 has nothing to do with getting married. It tells us to give 4 months to a married couple in which one of the spouses has started abstaining from the other spouse, to either reconcile or start the divorce process.
People who have never been married do not have to wait any time to get married AFTER the engagement oath. The engagement oath is a MUST before marriage as per 424. Widowed and divorced women have to wait a certain time period before getting married again.
-A mutual agreement to a proposal (2235) (This is considering that the proposal is made to an independent morally sound individual based on 425)
The engagement oath is a MUST before marriage as per 424 in order to make the "mohsana" a "ma malakat aymaanukum" (possessed by your oath). This oath could be public or secret as per 2235. Permission of the parents is a MUST if marrying a "fataya" (guardian protected young woman) per the context of 425.
-Dowry My opinion on this is that it can be a lump sum agreed before the start of the marriage as practiced in some cultures and societies or what you spend on one another in gifts and other financial matters such as rent and so on (44, 419-21, 424, 425, 55, 6010, 6011)
It has to be a lump sum mutually agreed by the married couple, and given after the nikah/marriage. It is given by the husband to the wife. It is separate from the subsequent financial maintenance obligatory upon the breadwinner as per 434. The amount paid as dowry is recorded in the marriage contract so that later there is no dispute at the time of divorce.
There is no need for a ceremony or for anything to be written down on paper.
There has to be a witness and a written contract of marriage as per 2237.
An independant man and woman start a relationship (the man asks the woman out and they become a couple after they decide that they like each other after their first date) Thus so far the proposal has been met.
Just deciding to like each other is not a proposal. There has to be a solemn oath given by the man to the woman that he wants to marry her and fulfil all his responsibilities of support etc. after marriage according to The God's commandments. This oath could be public or secret. The man has to make the woman his ma malakat aymaanukum.
They start buying each other gifts... (dowry has been met)
No it is not met like that. Dowry is after nikah/marriage and is given by the husband to the wife as lump sum as a wedding gift in order to give her some financial protection in case of divorce. It is not just buying her a casual gift like you mentioned. The amount paid is recorded in the marriage contract so that later there is no dispute at the time of divorce.
FROM THIS POINT ON
Whenever both sides feel that it's the right time to have sex, it's ok.No, there has to be an oath of engagement, and a witness who witnesses the marriage along with a written marriage contract as per 2237, and the guardians permission in case of a guardian protected young woman, before any hanky panky P
THERE IS NO SEXUAL INTERCOURSE BEFORE NIKAH/MARRIAGE. However, after the oath of engagement, the couple can expose their private parts to each other (without sex) as per 236 and 7030. I think there is wisdom in this. What if the couple get married and then don't like each other's private parts and end up getting divorced because of that? Better to see each other's private parts before marriage but only after the oath of engagement.
235 And they cover their private parts.
236 Except around their mates, or those who are committed to them by oath, they are free from blame.Peace
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Peace Jankren,
4911 O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
4912 O you who believe, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. And do not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite. Would any of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Merciful. -
Peace Truthseeker
2226 has nothing to do with getting married. It tells us to give 4 months to a married couple in which one of the spouses has started abstaining from the other spouse, to either reconcile or start the divorce process.
What i meant was if you propose to someone, they would have to have been single for at least the 4 months stated. If they did not have sex prior to you proposing then as far as i know there is no waiting.
As well as providing time for reconcilement, this also helps prevent people from just sleeping around with other people. This sort of gives more meaning to a relationship as you are more likely to be careful of who you start a sexual relationship with and possibly prevents sex from being repetative.
The engagement oath is a MUST before marriage as per 424 in order to make the "mohsana" a "ma malakat aymaanukum" (possessed by your oath).
Would it be unreasonable to understand this as making an independant girl your girlfriend "ma malakat aymaanukum" Possesed by your proposal (As a proposal to such a relationship implies that you are commited to that single girl )
Part of 424 states if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. Could this not be understood as If in this relationship which would mean financial input from you (sharing a house etc.) as long as it's not based on you just going after sex it's ok.
It has to be a lump sum mutually agreed by the married couple, and given after the nikah/marriage. It is given by the husband to the wife. It is separate from the subsequent financial maintenance obligatory upon the breadwinner as per 434.
The verse does not mention anything about a lump sum.
There has to be a witness and a written contract of marriage as per 2237.
2237-If you divorce them before having sexual intercourse with them, but you have already agreed to the dowry, then you must give half of what you have agreed, unless they forgive or the guardian over the marriage contract forgives. If you forgive, it is closer to awareness. Do not forget the favor between you; God is Seer over what you do.
It does not say the conract has to be written.
I'm not sure if the guardian over the marriage contract applies to independant individuals as I have not seen it mentioned anywhere else but where i have seen links is the verse 425-Whoever of you cannot afford to marry the acknowledging independent women, then from those young women whom you have contractual rights. God is more aware of your faith; you are equal to one another. You shall marry them with the permission of their family and give them their wage in kindness, to be protected, not for illicit sex or for taking lovers. If they become protected, then any of them who come with lewdness shall have half the punishment of what is for the independent women of the retribution. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Compassionate.
From this verse i think the gaurdian over the marriage could mean ONLY the guardian of a dependant individual or individuals.
In what the majority consider a normal marriage (not sexual relationship) does a gaurdian over the marriage exist?
No, there has to be an oath of engagement, and a witness who witnesses the marriage along with a written marriage contract as per 2237, and the guardians permission in case of a guardian protected young woman, before any hanky panky
My understnading
Oath= Proposal which automatically means that the two are exclusive to each other.
I don't think theres any mention of a witness or a written marriage contract after looking at 2237
I agree with guardian's permission for the dependant young womenWith regards to dowry, why would it be unaccaptable as gifts. Eg I buy her a ring and if we split up, it's not right for me to say give me the ring back
On the other hand i think it's obviously wrong to think I've bought her the ring now i can sleep with her.peace peace
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Peace Nyma,
What i meant was if you propose to someone, they would have to have been single for at least the 4 months stated. If they did not have sex prior to you proposing then as far as i know there is no waiting.
You are misunderstanding 2226. That sign is applicable only to MARRIED people. There is no casual sex without marriage. If you are married to a woman and there is some problem in the relationship and you decide to stop having sex with her, then you have 4 months to either reconcile or initiate the divorce process. If you decide to initiate the divorce process after the 4 months, you give the first divorce and then she has to wait for 3 menstrual periods. If during this time you reconcile then its fine but if you still do not wish to reconcile, then you have to give a second divorce and then she has to wait 3 more menstrual periods. If after that you still do not reconcile, ONLY THEN the marriage is terminated. So she will have to wait 4 months + 3 menstrual periods + 3 menstrual periods before marrying another man. This is to make sure she is not pregnant from you.
Alternatively, you can decide to divorce each other right away instead of stopping to have sex. In that case the wait is only 3 menstrual periods + 3 menstrual periods before the marriage is terminated.
Would it be unreasonable to understand this as making an independant girl your girlfriend "ma malakat aymaanukum" Possesed by your proposal (As a proposal to such a relationship implies that you are commited to that single girl )
The oath of engagement is a solemn/serious oath and is making a pledge involving The God. It is not just a casual declaration of "you are my girlfriend now". It is an oath in front of God that you are going to marry her and fulfil all your financial responsibilities after marriage. This oath is not to be taken lightly.
1691 And fulfill your pledge to God when you pledge so, and do not break your oath after making it, for you have made God a sponsor over you. God is aware of what you do.
1692 And do not be like she who unraveled her knitting after it had become strong, by breaking your oaths as a means of deception between you. That a nation shall be more numerous than another nation, for God puts you to the test by it. And He will show you on the Day of Resurrection that which you were disputing in.Sometimes the engagement does not work out, just like sometimes marriage/nikah does not work out. In that case if you have to break the oath and not get married, there is a penalty
589 God will not hold you for your unintentional oaths, but He will hold you for what oaths you have made binding; its cancellation shall be the feeding of ten poor from the average of what you feed your family, or that you clothe them, or that you free a slave; whoever cannot find shall fast for three days; this is a cancellation for making your oaths when you swear. And be careful from making oaths. It is such that God clarifies for you His revelations that you may be thankful.
The oath of engagement is NOT A PERMISSION TO HAVE SEX. The maximum that is permissible with ma malakat aymaanakum is exposure of the private parts to each other WITHOUT SEX.
Part of 424 states if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. Could this not be understood as If in this relationship which would mean financial input from you (sharing a house etc.) as long as it's not based on you just going after sex it's ok.
Sharing a house comes under 434 and is not dowry. Dowry has to be a sum of money or equivalent, like gold, silver, diamonds etc. which has to be paid in full to the wife after nikah/marriage, AND which she can keep after divorce (sharing a house during marriage is not dowry, unless you have agreed to give her the house after divorce). Its amount is determined by mutual agreement. That is why a written marriage contract is essential, which should have the amount of dowry recorded to prevent later disputes at the time of divorce. Divorce can have legal ramifications so there has to be some kind of tangible/physical evidence to prevent financial disputes pertaining to dowry. That is to give her financial protection in case of divorce and to prevent her from abusing the husband in case of divorce by denying that the dowry was ever paid. Sharing a house does not give her any protection after divorce.
The verse does not mention anything about a lump sum.
434 is not about dowry. It is about continued financial support during marriage which is in addition to dowry.
It does not say the conract has to be written.
How can a guardian guard a contract that is not written? The contract has to be a legally binding instrument in order to be enforced. The amount of dowry has to be recorded so that there is no dispute later on at the time of divorce. If it is not written then the wife can dispute at time of divorce that she was not given the dowry and it will become a legal nightmare.
I'm not sure if the guardian over the marriage contract applies to independant individuals as I have not seen it mentioned anywhere else but where i have seen links is the verse 425-Whoever of you cannot afford to marry the acknowledging independent women, then from those young women whom you have contractual rights. God is more aware of your faith; you are equal to one another. You shall marry them with the permission of their family and give them their wage in kindness, to be protected, not for illicit sex or for taking lovers. If they become protected, then any of them who come with lewdness shall have half the punishment of what is for the independent women of the retribution. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Compassionate.
From this verse i think the gaurdian over the marriage could mean ONLY the guardian of a dependant individual or individuals.
425 has nothing to do with guardian of the marriage contract. It has to do with guardian of young women BEFORE marriage. After marriage, the young woman becomes independent/protected/mohsanaat according to 425, and her previous guardian is not a guardian anymore. 2237 talks about guardian of the marriage contract and not guardian of the woman. We cannot twist The God's words to suit our desires.
The mere fact that the person is a GUARDIAN OF THE CONTRACT indicates that he/she is guarding something physical/tangible, so the marriage contract has to be something physical/tangible, for example a written signed contract. Divorce can have legal repercussions and there could be a dispute over whether the agreed dowry was paid or not. That is why a written contract is necessary, which records the amount of dowry and whether it was paid or not, to prevent such disputes. If no such document/instrument exists, divorce can end up as a legal nightmare.
2237 talks about guardian of the marriage contract (oqdat al-nikah), and not just marriage (nikah). We cannot twist The God's words to suit our desires.
In what the majority consider a normal marriage (not sexual relationship) does a gaurdian over the marriage exist?
There is no such thing as guardian over the marriage. 2237 talks about guardian of the marriage contract (oqdat al-nikah). To be a guardian of a contract indicates that the guardian has to be witness to the nikah/marriage and also that the contract has to be something physical/tangible as explained above.
You can do what you want violating The God's commandments because there is no compulsion in deen, but don't say it is from The God, and don't twist The God's words.
With regards to dowry, why would it be unaccaptable as gifts. Eg I buy her a ring and if we split up, it's not right for me to say give me the ring back D
On the other hand i think it's obviously wrong to think I've bought her the ring now i can sleep with her.If she is agreeable to it, sure it could be a ring with intrinsic financial value. It is for her financial protection in case of divorce.
ONCE AGAIN, YOU CANNOT HAVE SEX WITH A "GIRLFRIEND"/FIANCE UNTIL YOU GET MARRIED/NIKAH, IN FRONT OF A WITNESS, AND A PHYSICAL/TANGIBLE MARRIAGE CONTRACT, AND PERMISSION FROM HER GUARDIAN IF SHE IS DEPENDENT ON THE GUARDIAN BEFORE MARRIAGE. ONCE YOU GET MARRIED YOU HAVE TO PAY THE MUTUALLY AGREED DOWRY WHICH IS SEPARATE FROM CONTINUED FINANCIAL SUPPORT DURING MARRIAGE. MARRIAGE CAN ONLY BE TERMINATED BY A DIVORCE AS EXPLAINED ABOVE, IN FRONT OF TWO JUST WITNESSES
652 Then, once the interim is fulfilled, either you remain together equitably, or part ways equitably and have it witnessed by two just people from among you; and give the testimony for God. This is to enlighten those who believe in God and the Last Day. And whosoever reverences God, He will create a solution for him.
Peace
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Peace everyone,
CORRECTION
In my above posts, instead of 4 months it should read 4 full-moons. I apologize for any misunderstanding due to this.
"2226 has nothing to do with getting married. It tells us to give 4 full-moons to a married couple in which one of the spouses has started abstaining from the other spouse, to either reconcile or start the divorce process."
"If you are married to a woman and there is some problem in the relationship and you decide to stop having sex with her, then you have 4 full-moons to either reconcile or initiate the divorce process. If you decide to initiate the divorce process after the 4 full-moons, you give the first divorce and then she has to wait for 3 menstrual periods. If during this time you reconcile then its fine but if you still do not wish to reconcile, then you have to give a second divorce and then she has to wait 3 more menstrual periods. If after that you still do not reconcile, ONLY THEN the marriage is terminated. So she will have to wait 4 full-moons + 3 menstrual periods + 3 menstrual periods before marrying another man. This is to make sure she is not pregnant from you."
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Peace nsws,
So do they flash one another to make sure that they are, ahem, well endowed?
235 And they cover/protect/guard their private parts.
236 Except around their mates, or those possessed by their oath, they are free from blame.7029 And those who cover/protect/guard their private parts.
7030 Except around their spouses or those possessed by their oath, there is no blame.Please take it up with the author of the relevant signs.
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My two cents.
almushrikati/mushrikatin in the context of marriage as in Q2221 means someone who already has a partner, (i.e married person) in contrary to the traditional understanding that refers to those who set up partners with God. In brief, marry the single one.
Cheers.
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Peace Phil,
almushrikati/mushrikatin in the context of marriage as in Q2221 means someone who already has a partner, (i.e married person) in contrary to the traditional understanding that refers to those who set up partners with God. In brief, marry the single one.
2221 And do not marry the females who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if she attracts you. And do not marry the males who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if he attracts you. Those invite to the Fire, while God is inviting to Paradise and forgiveness by His leave. He clarifies His revelations for the people that they may remember.
And do not marry the mushrikaati females until they believe --------> So according to your understanding it is ok to marry the married female once she believes?
And do not marry the mushrikeen males until they believe--------> So according to your understanding it is ok to marry the married male once he believes?
For a believing servant is better than one who mushrikaat ---------> A believer is better than a married?
Your twisting results in this nonsense.
Also it contradicts with 43
No more comments on this particular issue from me.
Peace
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Peace nsws,
235 And they cover/protect/guard their private parts.
236 Except around their mates, or those possessed by their oath, they are free from blame.7029 And those who cover/protect/guard their private parts.
7030 Except around their spouses or those possessed by their oath, there is no blame.Please take it up with the author of the relevant signs.
Ermmm thanks for the advice! LOL
I wasn't questioning God's words but rather the practical implications ie why would they need to see each other naked.
It is best to keep the translation as 'right hands possess' as people have different views on what it means. I'm still new to all this so I haven't yet studied the Quran, but I respect your opinion.
Salam -
Peace nsws,
It is best to keep the translation as 'right hands possess' as people have different views on what it means. I'm still new to all this so I haven't yet studied the Quran, but I respect your opinion.
There is no word for hands there. I could not find even a single entry of "right hand" under YMN in Lane Lexicon. It can mean "right" or "oath". So "ma malakat aymanukum" can mean "those possessed by your right" which does not make any sense, or "those possessed by your oath", which makes perfect sense according to the context.
I wasn't questioning God's words but rather the practical implications ie why would they need to see each other naked.
I already gave my opinion about this in one of my posts above but maybe you did not read the whole post. What if the couple get married and then find out that there is some kind of deformity or medical illness, for example genital herpes, genital warts, peyronie's disease, impotence etc. which can have practical repercussions on the sexual relationship and end up getting divorced because of that? Better to see each other's private parts before marriage but only after the binding oath of engagement. God knows better.
Peace
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Peace Phil,
2221 And do not marry the females who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if she attracts you. And do not marry the males who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if he attracts you. Those invite to the Fire, while God is inviting to Paradise and forgiveness by His leave. He clarifies His revelations for the people that they may remember.
And do not marry the mushrikaati females until they believe --------> So according to your understanding it is ok to marry the married female once she believes?
Peace truthseeker11
The understanding of the word "believer/yu'minna" as you have underlined in your post needs to be seen from the context of marriage. This is the central theme of the verse.
The root Alif-Meem-Nun amongst others signifies "the manifesting humility or submission, and the accepting the Law," Lane's Lexicon, Volume 1, p138.
The Law as can be seen in 2221 states that we (men) are advised against marrying those who have partners/mushrikaati and the same goes to women that they are not to marry those who have partners/mushrikeen.
As such, one has to accept the Law before entering to the commitment, i.e marriage.
And what is the Law say about marriage? Do not marry those who have partners.
Those married person/with partners are left with no other choice but to turn to single/no partners in order to comply with the Law. In doing so, i.e complying with the Law, you are termed as "believers/mu'minatun/mu'minun" (in the context of marriage).
And do not marry the mushrikeen males until they believe--------> So according to your understanding it is ok to marry the married male once he believes?
For a believing servant is better than one who mushrikaat ---------> A believer is better than a married?
Your twisting results in this nonsense.
Try and apply the new understanding of the words mushrikeen/mushrikaat in the above verse and see whether it make any sense.
Also it contradicts with 43
No more comments on this particular issue from me.
Peace
Q43 addresses the issue of orphans and their inheritance. That's all about it. No polygamy/polygyny.
Sincerely hope that the below quote does not apply to you.
?The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off.?
Peace.
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Fahad peace What do you think now?
I think that it is wrong to have sex before the timing written(if so) in the nikah contract. But I don't think that "pre-marital" sex is punishable as, or falls under the category of, az-zina, as I do not recall seeing evidence for this(or maybe I missed it). If someone has, please share. IMHO, a couple indulging in "pre-marital" sex would also be regarded as azwaaj/mates/spouses, or "husband-wife".
I do have some(or many?) confusions about this topic so I need to look into it further. I'll let you know in more detail, inshaallah.
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peace
You are misunderstanding 2226. That sign is applicable only to MARRIED people.
I understand. But would it not mean that if i had sex, then i would have to wait a minimum of 4 moons before i have sex with a DIFFERENT person? As men have only 4 months reconcilation and nothing more as far as i Know.
The oath of engagement is a solemn/serious oath and is making a pledge involving The God. It is not just a casual declaration of "you are my girlfriend now". It is an oath in front of God that you are going to marry her and fulfil all your financial responsibilities after marriage. This oath is not to be taken lightly.
But what if starting a relationship is a commitment and a serious oath as once you enter a relationhip and the fact that you are a couple falls into place, you feel obliged to spend time with your partner, buy her things, share things and so on therefore fulfilling the Quranic criteria.
Obviously proposal to a marriage or an engagement is a more serious commitment but that does not mean that a relationship with the absence of engagement lacks the commitment or oath required by the Quran.
I'll have to finish this reply another time.
Peace
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Peace,
I understand. But would it not mean that if i had sex, then i would have to wait a minimum of 4 moons before i have sex with a DIFFERENT person? As men have only 4 months reconcilation and nothing more as far as i Know.
No sex allowed until after nikah/marriage. No sex with fiancee or girlfriend etc. After marriage/nikah, if you had sex with your wife and then you stopped having sex with her for some reason, then you have four full-moons to reconcile. If you don't reconcile for that time period, it does not mean that your marriage is terminated after 4 full-moons. At the end of 4 full-moons you can start the divorce process. One divorce is not enough for terminating the marriage. After first divorce you have to wait for 3 menstrual periods of your wife before giving second divorce. Then after second divorce you have to wait 3 menstrual periods of your wife and ONLY THEN the marriage is terminated.
On the other hand, if you started the divorce process right away, then first divorce ---> wait 3 menstrual periods ---> second divorce ---> wait 3 menstrual periods ---> marriage terminated. In this case, no waiting for 4 full-moons, but still you will have to wait for 6 menstrual periods.
But what if starting a relationship is a commitment and a serious oath as once you enter a relationhip and the fact that you are a couple falls into place, you feel obliged to spend time with your partner, buy her things, share things and so on therefore fulfilling the Quranic criteria.
But you still cannot have sex with her until after nikah/marriage, involving one witness, and a tangible/physical marriage contract, and permission from her guardian if she was guardian protected before marriage/nikah. You can give a lump sum dowry any time after nikah/marriage, and this can be after or before sex, but definitely before divorce. It has to be something of financial value that the wife can keep after divorce. The dowry is for the financial protection of the wife in case of divorce, and its amount and the date when it was paid has to be recorded in the marriage contract. The continued financial support after marriage is obligatory upon the breadwinner husband and is separate from the dowry.
Obviously proposal to a marriage or an engagement is a more serious commitment but that does not mean that a relationship with the absence of engagement lacks the commitment or oath required by the Quran.
It may not lack the commitment, but you still cannot have sex until after nikah/marriage as explained above.
Stage 1 - girlfriend/boyfriend relationship --------> private parts have to be covered/protected/guarded, no sex allowed. This is same as friendship between a man and a woman, and all the dress codes, and lowering the gaze, and concealing the zeenat, and covering/protecting/guarding the private parts as commanded by God have to be observed.
Stage 2 - After oath of engagement in The God's name -------> private parts can be exposed but still no sex allowed
Stage 3 - After nikah/marriage (involving one witness + physical marriage contract + guardians permission if needed) --------> sex allowed but dowry has to be given before or after sex, and definitely before divorce. -
Peace Q_student,
DEar nimnimak
If you want to have sex before marriage ,go ahead. Please do not use Quran for this purpose. Quran is not meant for justification of these illicit relations.
Thanks
Regardsbravo
You stole my words. All I would add is, be ready for retribution on the Last Day too, for violating the haraam. There is no escape from that, unless The God forgives.
6151 Say ?Come let me recite for you what your Lord has forbidden for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and be kind to your parents; and do not kill your children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and DO NOT COME NEAR LEWDNESS/FAWAAHISH, WHAT IS PLAIN OF IT OR SUBTLE; and do not kill the soul which God has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend.?
Forget about actually doing it, we are commanded not even to come near it.
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peace Nyma, all,
Dude, you never explained one of the verses referenced for you
Quran 2235
And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose marriage to these women, or you keep it between yourselves. God knows that you will be thinking of them, but do not meet them secretly, unless you have something righteous to say/discuss...
